Hello<p>I notice that ow will post on these bb's. I guess that's okay. But, I have absolutely NO RESPECT for them. Notta, absolutely none.<p>Most, if not all, don't care to see past their nose. They don't give a damn if they are causing pain to spouse. Not to mention the crisis for the entire family unit. You could never get me to believe this.<p>I will never understand for the life of me, how the ow/om can live with themselves. They must have very little respect for themselves and be somewhat desperate. The kind of people that will take whatever they can get. I think of them as low life. If they get hurt in all of this, i have no sympathy for them.<p>I do not apologize for these feelings. I make no apologies to the ow/om.

Patient1,<p>I agree with you that a person at peace with his/her self worth would be an unlikely candidate for an A. <p>Who allies himself/herself with a liar and a sneak? Who is willing to sacrifice their personal honor? Someone who has self-respect and who has respect for other people? Not likely.

I know for a fact that my xBIL and my WDIL are weak in the self worth department, both due in large part to the treatment they received from their parents. They both feel like they have to prove they are loveable.<p>I wonder where in their life experiences people learn to respect others? Is it possible that one who does not feel worthy doesn't know how to value others in an emotionally healthy way? Are they so needy that they will tolerate being used by OP? Why do they settle for a relationship that they have to hide from the world? Why don't they place a higher value on themselves and demand an honorable relationship?<p>My take on adulterers is that there is a deficiency somewhere in their psyche that causes them to make the choices that they do. They must be people who do not feel whole with who they are. They lack the skills to deal with relationships in a way that is not destructive to themselves and others. This is why we can say that the A is about them, not the BS. I feel that if there wasn't something wrong, they wouldn't behave the way they do. I think they are in emotional pain, don't have a constructive way to solve their problem, and end up hurting everybody.<p>The lies, deceit, the disrespectful treatment of the BS - all are deliberate choices. That WS and OP can discard all decency for their selfish desires makes me angry. Thanks to MB I can understand their motivations. I feel sorry for them in their confusion, but I have contempt for their choices.<p>Take care,
Estes<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Hi, <p>All this OP posting stuff has been making me think also. Not enough to post to her though. I have been watching those threads and just don't feel it is worth it at the moment. I am not adverse to an OP who wants help or is trying to understand but not one who talks with a 'forked tongue'. <p>I do agree that what is seen here (not by choice) but really seen by the BS and many others not in the fog is that the OP does this A stuff and defends it out of a selfish motive. Some take it to greater length than others and others even ride both sides of the fence and defend the OP way. <p>There are various degrees of an OP and even among the BS. But the OP degrees are still pretty much within the selfish realm unless they are willing to come back to reality. Maybe some die thinking being an OP is ok. But I honestly feel and from what I have seen that most know better, just don't want to admit it. <p>I have seen more than my share of OPs who are stubborn. It appears that OWs are more vocal and have a worse attitude to all than the OMs. But the OMs take it out closer to home. The OWs with no remorse are willing to 'lash' out at anyone who dares to question them. Some more than others but again in the same line. <p>I was thinking about categorizing them on a separate thread, maybe later. Funny, the first time I witnessed an OW here (from gloryb), I actually felt sorry for her. Then (like the others), I saw her wicked side show up. She could only keep up that 'friendly' attitude for soo long, then oops.....her OWness showed. <p>Thanks to some experienced persons (long timers, etc.) I learned that in some cases, it became throwing pearls before swine. We were trying to help the OW and going threw our own pain. When that was thrown back in my face and I saw it happening to others, it infuriated me. What? Another OW in my life, thoughts and this one is not even having an A with my H? Oh, this is dumb. Need to move on.......<p>Guess that is where I am now. Yes, I see those OWs and am very willing to spend time and show caring support when needed, but other than that, nope.....tooo busy.<p>L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Hi, <p> Funny, the first time I witnessed an OW here (from gloryb), I actually felt sorry for her. Then (like the others), I saw her wicked side show up. She could only keep up that 'friendly' attitude for soo long, then oops.....her OWness showed. <p>L.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hee hee. Kinda like when they make those phony "apology" calls to the wife AFTER they get dumped. Sample script- "Hello wife, this is OW. I feel that you have the right to know that I had an affair with your H (insert string of graphic details). I know it was wrong and I feel so bad about what I did, I know it must be very painful for you to hear this (sniffle, sniffle). I am really sorry and I have no intentions of ever speaking to him again. What's that you say? You won't be throwing him out? I hate you! You both ruined my life!" lol

Well, I just don’t know what to think. It seems that OW have a very thin skin. Can’t even exchange ideas with most of them without them getting all cranky and picking a fight. If I were to ever be able to see their side of the story they are making it impossible. Feel like don’t come into my playground, knock over my sand castle and then expect me to play with you. Even gloryb is like that. They will not even let a person post an opposing idea. Guess the OP’s are a very sensitive lot.<p>I too have a very hard time with people who willingly hurt others. I do think it’s a self esteem problem. It seems that most of the OW who come here think they are in some sort of a competition with the BS. Trying to prove they are better then some other woman and can steal her man. Seems it’s a fun sport even if they do not really want that man. <p>I think I get caught up in it because I just cannot understand that mentality and want to either change theirs and/or get some insight that will help me accept that there are people like that. I just cannot do it. <p>Kind of like watching the way the Tallyman or the Red Cheese governments treat their people. Why would anyone even want to do that? I just don’t get it. Oh well. Guess I just have to accept that there are people who will willingly hurt others for their own gain. Just glad I don’t fall into that group.<p>Oh well, did you hear that I’m like Eleanor Roosevelt? Cool huh?<p>OK, I’ll quit being bad and go to bed.

Thin skin? Well, this is no place for thin skin.....to much callous attitudes on the loose on fogese land.....<p>Yep we the BS, have deprived the OPs of this world from their right to have an A. Also, when the WS comes home and tries to 'right the wrong', the WS may even be accused of commiting the most horrible crime "emotional adultery" against the OP (ows especially claim this one). LOL!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think those OW's that come here with OWs (ow syndrome) get frustrated. Round peg, square hole problem. Just can't seem to fit. <p>The sad piece is that many of those really angry ones, used to be married. Hm...... sometimes they make the worse type of ows. Logic says they should know better but then the fog just blows that theory right out of the water. <p>Very hard to respect some one who thinks and acts like that.....<p>JMHO.
L.

I've been following these post for the past 2 days. I don't post here very often but I feel I need to say this. I in no way condone the actions of any OP or any WS for that matter. I am divorced because of an A so I can speak to the pain and heartach that this selfish behavior causes first hand. But, some of you guys do sound very bitter and angry and like you might need to work on your anger and move through it. Isn't plan A about resolving those less than desirable character traits that we possess?
One thing I find interesting is that we don't know who "hailey" was. She could be your next door neighbor. The one who you always depend on to feed your dog and cat and water your plants when you go out of town. She could be the nurse that nursed you dying grandmother with compasion that you were so thankful for. She could be the teacher that stayed on her own time after school to tutor your daughter who was having so much trouble in math. She could be the woman who's kitchen table you go to when you just can't take it anymore and need nothing more than to talk to a friend. We don't know who she was but as with us all I suspect she has her good points as well as her bad. We are all saints and we are all sinners.
Her actions are terrible wrong and selfish. The man involved with her is being terrible wrong and selfish.
Just remember the next time you show up in the ER with a sick child and some doctor shows you compasion and understanding and you feel comforted and safe because she is on the scene. That doctor could even be Hailey. You don't know do you.

I've been following these post for the past 2 days. I don't post here very often but I feel I need to say this. I in no way condone the actions of any OP or any WS for that matter. I am divorced because of an A so I can speak to the pain and heartach that this selfish behavior causes first hand. But, some of you guys do sound very bitter and angry and like you might need to work on your anger and move through it. Isn't plan A about resolving those less than desirable character traits that we possess?
One thing I find interesting is that we don't know who "hailey" was. She could be your next door neighbor. The one who you always depend on to feed your dog and cat and water your plants when you go out of town. She could be the nurse that nursed you dying grandmother with compasion that you were so thankful for. She could be the teacher that stayed on her own time after school to tutor your daughter who was having so much trouble in math. She could be the woman who's kitchen table you go to when you just can't take it anymore and need nothing more than to talk to a friend. We don't know who she was but as with us all I suspect she has her good points as well as her bad. We are all saints and we are all sinners.
Her actions are terrible wrong and selfish. The man involved with her is being terrible wrong and selfish.
Just remember the next time you show up in the ER with a sick child and some doctor shows you compasion and understanding and you feel comforted and safe because she is on the scene. That doctor could even be Hailey. You don't know do you.

I've been following these post for the past 2 days. I don't post here very often but I feel I need to say this. I in no way condone the actions of any OP or any WS for that matter. I am divorced because of an A so I can speak to the pain and heartach that this selfish behavior causes first hand. But, some of you guys do sound very bitter and angry and like you might need to work on your anger and move through it. Isn't plan A about resolving those less than desirable character traits that we possess?
One thing I find interesting is that we don't know who "hailey" was. She could be your next door neighbor. The one who you always depend on to feed your dog and cat and water your plants when you go out of town. She could be the nurse that nursed you dying grandmother with compasion that you were so thankful for. She could be the teacher that stayed on her own time after school to tutor your daughter who was having so much trouble in math. She could be the woman who's kitchen table you go to when you just can't take it anymore and need nothing more than to talk to a friend. We don't know who she was but as with us all I suspect she has her good points as well as her bad. We are all saints and we are all sinners.
Her actions are terrible wrong and selfish. The man involved with her is being terrible wrong and selfish.
Just remember the next time you show up in the ER with a sick child and some doctor shows you compasion and understanding and you feel comforted and safe because she is on the scene. That doctor could even be Hailey. You don't know do you.

I appreciate what ReneeK said. I am WS/OW and it's not something I'm exceptionally proud of (read I'm terribly ashamed of my behavior) and am still wondering what happened to ME!!! I would never in a million years have thought I was that 'kind of person'. I believe in fidelity and integrity.<p>I know that sounds hypocritical but it's truly the way I feel. <p>I do sense of a lot of bitterness from the BS's here---all completely understandable and normal in this horrible situation. And I do think that some of the OP's that post here do seem to be 'thumbing their noses', which is really not the purpose of this forum, IMO. But I honestly came here looking for help on rebuilding my marriage and have been flamed for having the nerve to even be here. <p>I understand the pain and anger from BS's but I am not responsible for the behavior of any WS but me. And I know for a fact that I am not the OW for any of you here. So please stop being mean to me for your unhappiness. I am here for help, which has been generously offered by so many. <p>And remember, *I* might be Hailey...you might be Hailey. We are all only human, with faults, flaws and problems. I think our mission here is to learn to love and forgive.<p>Ok, I have my asbestos suit on. Flame away.<p>[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: diddallas ]</p>

I could write pages about my WS (also an OW) and the apparent reasons for her "adventure." Suffice to say I believe it to be much, much more than shallow, self-gratification and simple selfishness. On the other hand, her MM is pond scum.<p>But the real purpose for this response is to show my gratitude for the WSs who post here, especially the enlightened ones who can look back on and share their thoughts of what took place for them. Sure, the unrepentent ones make us angry and we lash out - using them as our punching bags - but look what we can learn from them! By far, the greatest benefit I have received from this forum is knowledge - knowledge about what goes through the minds of WSs in the act of destroying families. Correction: knowledge about what goes through the minds of WSs in the act of preventing the preservation of families. Most of that knowledge has come from WSs.<p>To my wife and WS, I remain<p>worthatry

As Tiny Tim says in the fabled "Christmas story"...."God bless us, EVERYONE"...<p>Hmmmm...he didn't say, God bless us only if we haven't made any mistakes. I, too, have to echo some sentiments here...I do not post much anymore, but I read alot and keep up with many of you. Maybe it is the holidays or the long journeys that some of you are on, maybe it is the roller coaster ride and the waffling of WS, but it most certainly has become a way of life in here that walls are going up and "we vs. them" attitude is most prevalent. Now, before you go throwing stones and chastising, think for just a second...how many of you have made a point (many in a BIG way) of being Christian in your way of life?? Is there no tolerance, no forgiveness in your ways? Or...is tolerance and forgiveness conditional on getting what you want, desire, or deserve? I realize that many of you have ongoing struggles and OP make some of your lives a living hell, but who is control here? How much energy and power do you give away to OP, how much have you changed your true essence just to hate and chastise the OP. When I first found MB, many BS came here to ask for advice from WS, to learn why we did what we did, what made us think, act, feel, and say the things we did. Now, it has become, like so many barroom scenes of male/female/spouse bashing...it is nothing more than a string of outright bashing sessions. If you truly want to know how a WS/OP feels, you have to listen.....you do not have to agree, but none of us has ANY right to invalidate the feelings of another...we can question for understanding and clarification, but who are we to judge anyone? I am not sticking up for any WS/OP....but, I am saying that we cannot ask a question if we are not ready, willing, and able to see the answer!! Yes, there are some WS/OP that come here under false pretense....such as OLG did, looking for us to accept their way of thinking. We then have a choice.....ignore the behavior or jump into a full scale judgemental way of chastising, accusing anger in order to show our "moral superiority" and make sure we are heard. If we truly want wisdom and understanding, we listen to what is said, discard that which we do not agree with, or question that which we do not understand. Although Hitler did some heinous things against humanity, many have learned a great deal about him, his thoughts, and his ideas...whether good or bad. WS/OP are no different....you can learn from them...perhaps they may say one small detail that relates in some way to you, your marriage, or your past or your fears that gives you an insight to how to fix yourself, your marriage, your relationship, but being so blinded by your anger, you miss the point entirely. Rather than post angry responses or try to drive those people away from the sanctity that you have created at MB, why not read what is written, and either ignore it, or respond out of a quest for more information.
I am not saying you do not have a right to your feelings, nor am I invalidating anyone here. All I am saying is there has to be a better way than anger, bashing, and judging.<p>I will say, if I had received the treatment several months ago, as a WS, that some are met with now, I may not have found my way out of the fog, because I would have been defending myself constantly, rather than listening to others about what they felt, what I had done, and how to fix it. I was very lucky in that the BS that chose to see me as human, chose to help me understand and become better. If I had been greeted with what some are now, I may not have stayed here, may not have changed, and would most assuredly been back in the situation that I dreaded. Try to see past your anger, your fears, your loss....see you, see them, see the four year old scared, hurt child inside them.....for that is what there is....
someone inside them calling out for some help, some companionship, some understanding....do you parent the same way you treat WS/OP when they don't do what you want/expect?<p>Lastly, the holidays has me thinking and wanting to thank those of you here that DID take the time to listen and understand....you are too numerous to mention, and I would not want to hurt anyones feelings by leaving anyone out, but so many of you here have meant a great deal to my recovery, both personally and relationship-wise....even one's that I do not always agree with, you have helped in more ways than you can imagine. So, raise a cup of cheer, (your choice), and Merry Christmas....."God bless us, EVERYONE!!!"<p>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams."<p>Trueheart

....She could be your next door neighbor. The one who you always depend on to feed your dog and cat and water your plants when you go out of town. She could be the nurse that nursed you dying grandmother with compasion that you were so thankful for.[/QB][/QUOTE]<p>She is also the person who decided to participate in actions that destroy marriages, families and lives. I don't think watering plants compensates for destroyed lives. In my book you don't give them an inch until they become "undestructive"

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: diddallas ][/QB][/QUOTE]<p>"And remember, *I* might be Hailey...you might be Hailey. We are all only human, with faults, flaws and problems. I think our mission here is to learn to love and forgive."<p>Love and forgiveness does not imply tolerating bad behavior.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>But, some of you guys do sound very bitter and angry and like you might need to work on your anger and move through it. Isn't plan A about resolving those less than desirable character traits that we possess?
.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Sorry, but I disagree. Decent people should ALWAYS be angry about evil. Moral cowards sit silently while evil prevails. I want to know what kind of person can sit by and watch the needless destruction to the spouse and the kids and NOT get angry. What kind of person can sit by and NOT get angry when a conscienceless OP comes here and FLAUNTS that evil? That falls right smack into the category of righteous anger because if people sit by and DON'T challenge it, it simply encourages it. I am reminded of the old saying, Evil thrives when good men stand silent. <p>And while everyone needs to get over bitterness in thier marriage, that does not mean that BS should sit by and watch silently while thoughtless, immoral OP's flaunt thier destructive acts. Because it's not a matter of PAST PAIN, it's a matter of DECENCY.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Okieman:
<strong>..<p>She is also the person who decided to participate in actions that destroy marriages, families and lives. I don't think watering plants compensates for destroyed lives. In my book you don't give them an inch until they become "undestructive"</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hey! Quit being logical, Okieman!! We are supposed to IGNORE the evil they have done and put our head in the sand.

Many of you here are taking this post on a *****ing route as well. That - My point was that - you may be right now - in some area of your life - interacting with an OP or a WS - it may be your cousin, your sister, your brother. Someone you would defend to the death. The action of cheating is wrong - but what if - what if someone you loved was an OP - just what if.
I think some of you just want to *****. You don't care about listening or learning.
I've seen that some of you guys and probably girls are ex- military. *I'm not sure and please only those who know this answer* But, isn't there a general military statagy that says - something along the lines of - KNOW THY ENEMY? You can't fight a war and expect to win if you don't know a lot of stuff about the evil you're fighting. Please - only those who have experience or training answer that. If you just want to give your opinion - state it as such before hand. Don't push it on us all as the absolute truth. Besides what I"m asking is about theroy.

There are some words missing around here, such as:<p>Repenting
Remorseful
Regret
Shame<p>There was no such place as MB when I became a BS, but when I was a WS thirteen years later, thank God, MB was here for me.<p>When I first came here, over two years ago, I wanted to die. The regret was horrific, and has lasts until today. The pain has lessoned, but I have to live with what I did for the rest of my life. My (then)H cheated on me more to pay me back, and my marriage shattered.<p>Certainly not the cocky words of some of the OW who show up here lately. <p>After the olgjmj fiasco I swore I wouldn't get involved, and I haven't. I reached out to her, only to have my hand slapped away. NO MORE! I am worth more than that. WE ALL ARE.<p>Some wise really old guy (it was K [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) said to ignore posters who hurt us. You've heard that phrase "Hurt me once, shame on you, hurt me twice, shame on me" right? I choose to stay AWAY.<p>Thank God for MB and for those who loved me in spite of my mistakes!!<p>[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by diddallas:
<strong>[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: diddallas ]
"And remember, *I* might be Hailey...you might be Hailey. We are all only human, with faults, flaws and problems. I think our mission here is to learn to love and forgive."]</strong>[/QUOTE<p>
Forgiveness has it's place when there has been a complete change of heart and remorse, however, that doesn't mean that you EVER condone or forget the act. And it doesn't mean that you give the keys to the bank to a former bank robber. <p>
Everyone might have flaws but let's be thinkers here and distinguish between the flaws of Mother Theresa and Ted Bundy. Do you see a leeetle difference? Neither are perfect and both have flaws but wouldn't you admit that there might be a tad bit moral difference between Mother Theresa and Ted Bundy? Get my point?<p>I know that many people like to pretend that "it" can "happen" to anyone, but that is a logical fallacy. "IT" doesn't just "happen" to anyone like a roving, random disease. Because it is a CHOICE that people make. Behavior doesn't just "happen" to people - they make a conscious choice to behave in a certain manner. Some people make the CHOICE to give into thier most destructive temptations and some people DON'T. People make their choices based on thier CHARACTER.<p>So let's please not broadbrush everyone with the bad acts of a few in order to make the WS feel better. Dont' add insult to injury just to make yourself feel better. Don't be a clinton.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
[QB]
But, isn't there a general military statagy that says - something along the lines of - KNOW THY ENEMY? You can't fight a war and expect to win if you don't know a lot of stuff about the evil you're fighting. QB]<hr></blockquote><p>Having spent a career in the military, you do try to know everything about your enemy. But that will not always be the case so you move out, overwhelm them and kill them. Rather blunt for most non-military types but nevertheless true.<p>One more tidbit from the Good Book. We are told not to fight evil but flee from it.