No Respect for OW/OM - Marriage Builders® Forums

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HelloI notice that ow will post on these bb's. I guess that's okay. But, I have absolutely NO RESPECT for them. Notta, absolutely none.Most, if not all, don't care to see past their nose. They don't give a damn if they are causing pain to spouse. Not to mention the crisis for the entire family unit. You could never get me to believe this.I will never understand for the life of me, how the ow/om can live with themselves. They must have very little respect for themselves and be somewhat desperate. The kind of people that will take whatever they can get. I think of them as low life. If they get hurt in all of this, i have no sympathy for them.I do not apologize for these feelings. I make no apologies to the ow/om.

Patient1,I agree with you that a person at peace with his/her self worth would be an unlikely candidate for an A. Who allies himself/herself with a liar and a sneak? Who is willing to sacrifice their personal honor? Someone who has self-respect and who has respect for other people? Not likely.

I know for a fact that my xBIL and my WDIL are weak in the self worth department, both due in large part to the treatment they received from their parents. They both feel like they have to prove they are loveable.I wonder where in their life experiences people learn to respect others? Is it possible that one who does not feel worthy doesn't know how to value others in an emotionally healthy way? Are they so needy that they will tolerate being used by OP? Why do they settle for a relationship that they have to hide from the world? Why don't they place a higher value on themselves and demand an honorable relationship?My take on adulterers is that there is a deficiency somewhere in their psyche that causes them to make the choices that they do. They must be people who do not feel whole with who they are. They lack the skills to deal with relationships in a way that is not destructive to themselves and others. This is why we can say that the A is about them, not the BS. I feel that if there wasn't something wrong, they wouldn't behave the way they do. I think they are in emotional pain, don't have a constructive way to solve their problem, and end up hurting everybody.The lies, deceit, the disrespectful treatment of the BS - all are deliberate choices. That WS and OP can discard all decency for their selfish desires makes me angry. Thanks to MB I can understand their motivations. I feel sorry for them in their confusion, but I have contempt for their choices.Take care,
Estes[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]

Hi, All this OP posting stuff has been making me think also. Not enough to post to her though. I have been watching those threads and just don't feel it is worth it at the moment. I am not adverse to an OP who wants help or is trying to understand but not one who talks with a 'forked tongue'. I do agree that what is seen here (not by choice) but really seen by the BS and many others not in the fog is that the OP does this A stuff and defends it out of a selfish motive. Some take it to greater length than others and others even ride both sides of the fence and defend the OP way. There are various degrees of an OP and even among the BS. But the OP degrees are still pretty much within the selfish realm unless they are willing to come back to reality. Maybe some die thinking being an OP is ok. But I honestly feel and from what I have seen that most know better, just don't want to admit it. I have seen more than my share of OPs who are stubborn. It appears that OWs are more vocal and have a worse attitude to all than the OMs. But the OMs take it out closer to home. The OWs with no remorse are willing to 'lash' out at anyone who dares to question them. Some more than others but again in the same line. I was thinking about categorizing them on a separate thread, maybe later. Funny, the first time I witnessed an OW here (from gloryb), I actually felt sorry for her. Then (like the others), I saw her wicked side show up. She could only keep up that 'friendly' attitude for soo long, then oops.....her OWness showed. Thanks to some experienced persons (long timers, etc.) I learned that in some cases, it became throwing pearls before swine. We were trying to help the OW and going threw our own pain. When that was thrown back in my face and I saw it happening to others, it infuriated me. What? Another OW in my life, thoughts and this one is not even having an A with my H? Oh, this is dumb. Need to move on.......Guess that is where I am now. Yes, I see those OWs and am very willing to spend time and show caring support when needed, but other than that, nope.....tooo busy.L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Orchid:
Hi, Funny, the first time I witnessed an OW here (from gloryb), I actually felt sorry for her. Then (like the others), I saw her wicked side show up. She could only keep up that 'friendly' attitude for soo long, then oops.....her OWness showed. L.<hr></blockquote>Hee hee. Kinda like when they make those phony "apology" calls to the wife AFTER they get dumped. Sample script- "Hello wife, this is OW. I feel that you have the right to know that I had an affair with your H (insert string of graphic details). I know it was wrong and I feel so bad about what I did, I know it must be very painful for you to hear this (sniffle, sniffle). I am really sorry and I have no intentions of ever speaking to him again. What's that you say? You won't be throwing him out? I hate you! You both ruined my life!" lol

Well, I just don’t know what to think. It seems that OW have a very thin skin. Can’t even exchange ideas with most of them without them getting all cranky and picking a fight. If I were to ever be able to see their side of the story they are making it impossible. Feel like don’t come into my playground, knock over my sand castle and then expect me to play with you. Even gloryb is like that. They will not even let a person post an opposing idea. Guess the OP’s are a very sensitive lot.I too have a very hard time with people who willingly hurt others. I do think it’s a self esteem problem. It seems that most of the OW who come here think they are in some sort of a competition with the BS. Trying to prove they are better then some other woman and can steal her man. Seems it’s a fun sport even if they do not really want that man. I think I get caught up in it because I just cannot understand that mentality and want to either change theirs and/or get some insight that will help me accept that there are people like that. I just cannot do it. Kind of like watching the way the Tallyman or the Red Cheese governments treat their people. Why would anyone even want to do that? I just don’t get it. Oh well. Guess I just have to accept that there are people who will willingly hurt others for their own gain. Just glad I don’t fall into that group.Oh well, did you hear that I’m like Eleanor Roosevelt? Cool huh?OK, I’ll quit being bad and go to bed.

Thin skin? Well, this is no place for thin skin.....to much callous attitudes on the loose on fogese land.....Yep we the BS, have deprived the OPs of this world from their right to have an A. Also, when the WS comes home and tries to 'right the wrong', the WS may even be accused of commiting the most horrible crime "emotional adultery" against the OP (ows especially claim this one). LOL!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I think those OW's that come here with OWs (ow syndrome) get frustrated. Round peg, square hole problem. Just can't seem to fit. The sad piece is that many of those really angry ones, used to be married. Hm...... sometimes they make the worse type of ows. Logic says they should know better but then the fog just blows that theory right out of the water. Very hard to respect some one who thinks and acts like that.....JMHO.
L.

I've been following these post for the past 2 days. I don't post here very often but I feel I need to say this. I in no way condone the actions of any OP or any WS for that matter. I am divorced because of an A so I can speak to the pain and heartach that this selfish behavior causes first hand. But, some of you guys do sound very bitter and angry and like you might need to work on your anger and move through it. Isn't plan A about resolving those less than desirable character traits that we possess?
One thing I find interesting is that we don't know who "hailey" was. She could be your next door neighbor. The one who you always depend on to feed your dog and cat and water your plants when you go out of town. She could be the nurse that nursed you dying grandmother with compasion that you were so thankful for. She could be the teacher that stayed on her own time after school to tutor your daughter who was having so much trouble in math. She could be the woman who's kitchen table you go to when you just can't take it anymore and need nothing more than to talk to a friend. We don't know who she was but as with us all I suspect she has her good points as well as her bad. We are all saints and we are all sinners.
Her actions are terrible wrong and selfish. The man involved with her is being terrible wrong and selfish.
Just remember the next time you show up in the ER with a sick child and some doctor shows you compasion and understanding and you feel comforted and safe because she is on the scene. That doctor could even be Hailey. You don't know do you.

I appreciate what ReneeK said. I am WS/OW and it's not something I'm exceptionally proud of (read I'm terribly ashamed of my behavior) and am still wondering what happened to ME!!! I would never in a million years have thought I was that 'kind of person'. I believe in fidelity and integrity.I know that sounds hypocritical but it's truly the way I feel. I do sense of a lot of bitterness from the BS's here---all completely understandable and normal in this horrible situation. And I do think that some of the OP's that post here do seem to be 'thumbing their noses', which is really not the purpose of this forum, IMO. But I honestly came here looking for help on rebuilding my marriage and have been flamed for having the nerve to even be here. I understand the pain and anger from BS's but I am not responsible for the behavior of any WS but me. And I know for a fact that I am not the OW for any of you here. So please stop being mean to me for your unhappiness. I am here for help, which has been generously offered by so many. And remember, *I* might be Hailey...you might be Hailey. We are all only human, with faults, flaws and problems. I think our mission here is to learn to love and forgive.Ok, I have my asbestos suit on. Flame away.[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: diddallas ]

I could write pages about my WS (also an OW) and the apparent reasons for her "adventure." Suffice to say I believe it to be much, much more than shallow, self-gratification and simple selfishness. On the other hand, her MM is pond scum.But the real purpose for this response is to show my gratitude for the WSs who post here, especially the enlightened ones who can look back on and share their thoughts of what took place for them. Sure, the unrepentent ones make us angry and we lash out - using them as our punching bags - but look what we can learn from them! By far, the greatest benefit I have received from this forum is knowledge - knowledge about what goes through the minds of WSs in the act of destroying families. Correction: knowledge about what goes through the minds of WSs in the act of preventing the preservation of families. Most of that knowledge has come from WSs.To my wife and WS, I remainworthatry

As Tiny Tim says in the fabled "Christmas story"...."God bless us, EVERYONE"...Hmmmm...he didn't say, God bless us only if we haven't made any mistakes. I, too, have to echo some sentiments here...I do not post much anymore, but I read alot and keep up with many of you. Maybe it is the holidays or the long journeys that some of you are on, maybe it is the roller coaster ride and the waffling of WS, but it most certainly has become a way of life in here that walls are going up and "we vs. them" attitude is most prevalent. Now, before you go throwing stones and chastising, think for just a second...how many of you have made a point (many in a BIG way) of being Christian in your way of life?? Is there no tolerance, no forgiveness in your ways? Or...is tolerance and forgiveness conditional on getting what you want, desire, or deserve? I realize that many of you have ongoing struggles and OP make some of your lives a living hell, but who is control here? How much energy and power do you give away to OP, how much have you changed your true essence just to hate and chastise the OP. When I first found MB, many BS came here to ask for advice from WS, to learn why we did what we did, what made us think, act, feel, and say the things we did. Now, it has become, like so many barroom scenes of male/female/spouse bashing...it is nothing more than a string of outright bashing sessions. If you truly want to know how a WS/OP feels, you have to listen.....you do not have to agree, but none of us has ANY right to invalidate the feelings of another...we can question for understanding and clarification, but who are we to judge anyone? I am not sticking up for any WS/OP....but, I am saying that we cannot ask a question if we are not ready, willing, and able to see the answer!! Yes, there are some WS/OP that come here under false pretense....such as OLG did, looking for us to accept their way of thinking. We then have a choice.....ignore the behavior or jump into a full scale judgemental way of chastising, accusing anger in order to show our "moral superiority" and make sure we are heard. If we truly want wisdom and understanding, we listen to what is said, discard that which we do not agree with, or question that which we do not understand. Although Hitler did some heinous things against humanity, many have learned a great deal about him, his thoughts, and his ideas...whether good or bad. WS/OP are no different....you can learn from them...perhaps they may say one small detail that relates in some way to you, your marriage, or your past or your fears that gives you an insight to how to fix yourself, your marriage, your relationship, but being so blinded by your anger, you miss the point entirely. Rather than post angry responses or try to drive those people away from the sanctity that you have created at MB, why not read what is written, and either ignore it, or respond out of a quest for more information.
I am not saying you do not have a right to your feelings, nor am I invalidating anyone here. All I am saying is there has to be a better way than anger, bashing, and judging.I will say, if I had received the treatment several months ago, as a WS, that some are met with now, I may not have found my way out of the fog, because I would have been defending myself constantly, rather than listening to others about what they felt, what I had done, and how to fix it. I was very lucky in that the BS that chose to see me as human, chose to help me understand and become better. If I had been greeted with what some are now, I may not have stayed here, may not have changed, and would most assuredly been back in the situation that I dreaded. Try to see past your anger, your fears, your loss....see you, see them, see the four year old scared, hurt child inside them.....for that is what there is....
someone inside them calling out for some help, some companionship, some understanding....do you parent the same way you treat WS/OP when they don't do what you want/expect?Lastly, the holidays has me thinking and wanting to thank those of you here that DID take the time to listen and understand....you are too numerous to mention, and I would not want to hurt anyones feelings by leaving anyone out, but so many of you here have meant a great deal to my recovery, both personally and relationship-wise....even one's that I do not always agree with, you have helped in more ways than you can imagine. So, raise a cup of cheer, (your choice), and Merry Christmas....."God bless us, EVERYONE!!!"*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams."Trueheart

....She could be your next door neighbor. The one who you always depend on to feed your dog and cat and water your plants when you go out of town. She could be the nurse that nursed you dying grandmother with compasion that you were so thankful for.[/QB][/QUOTE]She is also the person who decided to participate in actions that destroy marriages, families and lives. I don't think watering plants compensates for destroyed lives. In my book you don't give them an inch until they become "undestructive"

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: diddallas ][/QB][/QUOTE]"And remember, *I* might be Hailey...you might be Hailey. We are all only human, with faults, flaws and problems. I think our mission here is to learn to love and forgive."Love and forgiveness does not imply tolerating bad behavior.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by renee k:
But, some of you guys do sound very bitter and angry and like you might need to work on your anger and move through it. Isn't plan A about resolving those less than desirable character traits that we possess?
.<hr></blockquote>
Sorry, but I disagree. Decent people should ALWAYS be angry about evil. Moral cowards sit silently while evil prevails. I want to know what kind of person can sit by and watch the needless destruction to the spouse and the kids and NOT get angry. What kind of person can sit by and NOT get angry when a conscienceless OP comes here and FLAUNTS that evil? That falls right smack into the category of righteous anger because if people sit by and DON'T challenge it, it simply encourages it. I am reminded of the old saying, Evil thrives when good men stand silent. And while everyone needs to get over bitterness in thier marriage, that does not mean that BS should sit by and watch silently while thoughtless, immoral OP's flaunt thier destructive acts. Because it's not a matter of PAST PAIN, it's a matter of DECENCY.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Okieman:
..She is also the person who decided to participate in actions that destroy marriages, families and lives. I don't think watering plants compensates for destroyed lives. In my book you don't give them an inch until they become "undestructive"<hr></blockquote>Hey! Quit being logical, Okieman!! We are supposed to IGNORE the evil they have done and put our head in the sand.

Many of you here are taking this post on a *****ing route as well. That - My point was that - you may be right now - in some area of your life - interacting with an OP or a WS - it may be your cousin, your sister, your brother. Someone you would defend to the death. The action of cheating is wrong - but what if - what if someone you loved was an OP - just what if.
I think some of you just want to *****. You don't care about listening or learning.
I've seen that some of you guys and probably girls are ex- military. *I'm not sure and please only those who know this answer* But, isn't there a general military statagy that says - something along the lines of - KNOW THY ENEMY? You can't fight a war and expect to win if you don't know a lot of stuff about the evil you're fighting. Please - only those who have experience or training answer that. If you just want to give your opinion - state it as such before hand. Don't push it on us all as the absolute truth. Besides what I"m asking is about theroy.

There are some words missing around here, such as:Repenting
Remorseful
Regret
ShameThere was no such place as MB when I became a BS, but when I was a WS thirteen years later, thank God, MB was here for me.When I first came here, over two years ago, I wanted to die. The regret was horrific, and has lasts until today. The pain has lessoned, but I have to live with what I did for the rest of my life. My (then)H cheated on me more to pay me back, and my marriage shattered.Certainly not the cocky words of some of the OW who show up here lately. After the olgjmj fiasco I swore I wouldn't get involved, and I haven't. I reached out to her, only to have my hand slapped away. NO MORE! I am worth more than that. WE ALL ARE.Some wise really old guy (it was K [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) said to ignore posters who hurt us. You've heard that phrase "Hurt me once, shame on you, hurt me twice, shame on me" right? I choose to stay AWAY.Thank God for MB and for those who loved me in spite of my mistakes!![ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by diddallas:
[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: diddallas ]
"And remember, *I* might be Hailey...you might be Hailey. We are all only human, with faults, flaws and problems. I think our mission here is to learn to love and forgive."][/QUOTE
Forgiveness has it's place when there has been a complete change of heart and remorse, however, that doesn't mean that you EVER condone or forget the act. And it doesn't mean that you give the keys to the bank to a former bank robber. 
Everyone might have flaws but let's be thinkers here and distinguish between the flaws of Mother Theresa and Ted Bundy. Do you see a leeetle difference? Neither are perfect and both have flaws but wouldn't you admit that there might be a tad bit moral difference between Mother Theresa and Ted Bundy? Get my point?I know that many people like to pretend that "it" can "happen" to anyone, but that is a logical fallacy. "IT" doesn't just "happen" to anyone like a roving, random disease. Because it is a CHOICE that people make. Behavior doesn't just "happen" to people - they make a conscious choice to behave in a certain manner. Some people make the CHOICE to give into thier most destructive temptations and some people DON'T. People make their choices based on thier CHARACTER.So let's please not broadbrush everyone with the bad acts of a few in order to make the WS feel better. Dont' add insult to injury just to make yourself feel better. Don't be a clinton.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by renee k:
[QB]
But, isn't there a general military statagy that says - something along the lines of - KNOW THY ENEMY? You can't fight a war and expect to win if you don't know a lot of stuff about the evil you're fighting. QB]<hr></blockquote>Having spent a career in the military, you do try to know everything about your enemy. But that will not always be the case so you move out, overwhelm them and kill them. Rather blunt for most non-military types but nevertheless true.One more tidbit from the Good Book. We are told not to fight evil but flee from it.

O-man. Thanks - this is a question - for O-man. I think what I'm trying to say. Is that if we as BS's take what we read here - we can gain insight into how an A really works. Don't know about all of you guys but some of these OP say things that make me think - wow - so the WS and the OP are over there feeling all is well and you guys suck - Didn't hailey say that her MM had told her how much he loves W - how he had at least at one time felt that she was his soulmate. I think my EX may have felt that same love for me in the beginning of our marriage - but what he told me while he was in the fog didn't make me fill that way. Made me wonder if he had ever told the OW in our case - that he had loved me too. I hope so at least.
but back to O-man. I'm just asking. You've got to know at least where the enemy can be found right? and wouldn't it beneficial to know THEIR weaknesses? The more you know - the clearner the kill? Right? just asking - and asking O-man.

I think this is a perfectly OK place, as is most places... to be frustrated, upset, annoyed, and openly angry at OW's... and their behavior... or OP's. Sorry guys, part of the healing process and PLAN AING helps when you have another place to vent all those angry and upset feelings, words, etc. If we say we cannot vent how we feel to each other about OP, how can we really Plan a, without support for angry feelings... thanks so much, L

Gosh...I hope that I can get to a point where I can judge each person and be morally superior, so as to know that I am better than others and be able to see inside each of them to know if, in fact, they are truly remorseful, or when they are remorseful enough to deserve to be forgiven or given a second chance. (OH, sorry, even though I am repentant, remorseful, and have had a complete change of heart...I do not deserve that same forgiveness, for I have already proven myself unworthy since it was I that chose to do something that hurt someone else.) So, I should be condemned to be less of a person, my wisdom and experiences are tainted since it was I that was a WS and could never again be seen as whole by someone that chose to resist. So, this forum should now only be for those that have never been a WS, could never be a WS, and are unable and unwilling to ever understand or forgive a WS, no matter how things turned out. And what would we say about the BS that, even if the WS is truly repentant, remorseful, and does everything in their power to prove their love to the BS, still refuses to forgive and give that person another chance? Do we say that person is wrong for not forgiving? No, usually, we are able to blame the WS for ruining their trust, putting them in a position to not be able to move past things, and ruining their future relationships as well. Rather a double standard too, is it not?As it is possible to ignore WS/OP posts that smack of justification/rationalization, I am more than convinced that not posting on threads that are "volatile" is a good idea, no matter which side of the MB fence they come from. I have learned from my mistakes, make up for them on a daily basis, and realize what I did. I cannot take it back, do not accept what I did, and relive it every single day (just like a BS does). I do not, however, believe that any of us has the right to be so judgemental. I will step off the soapbox now and return to watching as it seems it is a much safer way to learn.*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams*Trueheart

renee k and allYou are right that some info can be gleamed from the OP posts. The bit about her saying that he loved his wife is interesting. Perhaps it does help some people. They are not, however, the BS’s real problem. They are actually superficial to the marriage in that they are being used (perhaps not intentionally) to air a marital problem They are not THE marital problem. It is dangerous to over focus on the OP.We have many OP and WS here who are regular, contributing members. They have shared a lot with all of us. I have no problem with the OP who come here and treat people respectfully. But the real problem I see on this forum is that it seems that no matter what a person says to some OP they take offense and want to fight. If 5 people are trying to be helpful and one bashes them, they lash out at all 6 people. I don’t know how to get beyond this. Yes some people were really nasty to Hailey. I guess that some people have been really nasty to Katie Scarlett. I have not followed everything written to Scarlett. But I know that I have never been nasty to her. If anything I have reached out to Scarlett and been supportive of her.Yet what I see on the Hailey threads is that Hailey responds to almost everyone with her fangs out. She will respond nicely for a while, then whammy … she’s mad again. Not at an individual but it seems at everyone. It is hard to tell who she is lashing out at and who she thinks is helping her. It makes it impossible deal with her. I do think that we as a group need to find a way to deal with OP. Perhaps we could turn this thread into some sort of soul searching about that. It really does no one any good to lash out at anyone. If some MB members want to vent about OP maybe it can be done in a thread away from them. But I seriously do not know how to respond. I am not sorry for their pain.. .they choose it. I do not think of them as victims. If it were my friend, son’s teacher, neighbor who told me of this type of attitude I would not ‘make nice’ with them. If they asked my opinion or advice I would tell them the same things I say here on MB. I do not believe in standing by while someone is hurting others. Just will not do that. As a matter of fact read what has been written. It sounds like a game they are playing. My take on Hailey is that her intent on coming here was to thump her nose at the BS… she says that she had some purpose but never really clarified that. It’s all very mysterious and she left with some game about everyone deciding for themselves what she got out of their posts????? Boy is that convoluted logic and a game? Think so. I agree with Trueheart… but then again I always do. He comes from such a wonderful place. We have to be careful about batting around OP’s and WS’s. If even one comes here seriously trying to recover their marriage and/or find their way, and sees and OP/WS being given a hard time it will make them very shy about posting here. And we will have lost a chance to help one marriage and one person. But for the life of me I don’t know how to respond to someone like Hailey I tried to be supportive but don’t think it was well received. Indeed she seems to have accused me of playing some sort of game (But she said that I as very good at it… so I guess that’s a complement. Don‘t ya think?) So how are we supposed to respond? I guess my only choice is to not respond to OP’s anymore until I know their real intent there. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

I agree with those who mentioned righteous anger and have felt much of what a lot of what has been mentioned here by the BS's. I was a BS also, and have to say that was the most horrible, devasting and deeply hurtful experience I have ever been through. The following is from Neil Anderson's daily devotional on Thursday, December 13, 2001.The prayer at the end seems fitting in the case of the OP. Forgiveness is the key here, God expects us to forgive others, and not harbor unforgiveness in our hearts. We only hurt ourselves when we harbor unforgiveness. It is like a cancer that eats away at your soul.For me, I didn't experience freedom from the pain of my dh's adultery until I forgave the OW. I don't condone her behavior by any means, but I do feel that God will deal with her. Deuteronomy 32:35 says "I will take vengeance; I will repay those who deserve it. In due time their feet will slip. Their day of disaster will arrive, and their destiny will overtake them.'" NLT For me, it is best that I let God handle it. Neil Anderson's Daily Devotional:
"When King Herod had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. "In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written: 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means the least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'" --Matthew 2:4-6 New International VersionTHOUGHTS ABOUT TODAY'S VERSE...
"The first will be last and the last will be first." That's one of Jesus' favorite sayings. Isn't it interesting that God said it long before he was born. Isn't it interesting that those who knew the Scriptures, but didn't know Jesus, said it too! Isn't it interesting that Herod and Jesus lived it thirty years before Jesus would teach it? Isn't it interesting that Jesus gave us the Lord's Supper to remember that while Jesus died and shed his blood, on the first day of the week, Sunday, he rose. When it matters most, Jesus and his people will finish first!MY PRAYER...
You, O Lord, are marvelous. You are God Almighty, the holy and majestic Creator. Yet you became the least so I can share in your glory. Please help me, O God, never to look down on someone else because they look like the least. I know, Father, that as I serve and love them, I'm serving and loving you. In Jesus name I pray. Amen.

I would like to apologize for that last post...I was being rather testy this morning. I didnt come from that place that Z referred to...I guess I am tired of reading ALL of the negativity, not that A's are not filled with it. It just seems that, as of the past month, it is much more frequent and the chosen way. So, please forgive my lapse into that realm of sarcasm. Trueheart

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by renee k:
Many of you here are taking this post on a *****ing route as well. That - My point was that - you may be right now - in some area of your life - interacting with an OP or a WS - it may be your cousin, your sister, your brother. Someone you would defend to the death. The action of cheating is wrong - but what if - what if someone you loved was an OP - just what if.
<hr></blockquote> I have completely severed 2 friends from my life for that very reason. I reminded them of the hell I went through and that the OP rarely "wins" (for lack of a better word). All I got from my pleading were the usual lame justifications. I realized that if a friend, or even a relative, had that attitude after seeing what it did to me, they aren't someone I need in my life. I also realize that I could never trust them, I might be the next back stabbed if I have something they want. Now, if at some point in time they come to me saying that they realized how wrong it was and that they are truly sorry (not just sorry for themselves because they got dumped) that is a different story. I think anyone who has true remorse and wants to make amends deserves a second chance. But I have no more sympathy for an unrepentant OP or WS than I do for someone who beats puppies (I'm sure even people who beat puppies have justifications for why it's okay). Funny thing is, my former WS is now even more disgusted by unrepentant cheaters and OP than I am.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by trueheart:
I would like to apologize for that last post...I was being rather testy this morning.<hr></blockquote>trueheart,
I normally only post on the Recovery board, but this title caught my eye from the main page so I came to take a peak. After reading page 1 I had decided I was going to keep my nose out of this debate, then I read your post. Let me just say, no need for apology I think so far yours is the best reply and maybe some sarcasm was needed.And since I’ve stuck my nose in here let me add this for all the OP/WS (and usually both at the same time) out there. Personally, I thank you for being here. Once the fog has lifted the input you offer is priceless.
My W is an OW to someone and I have seen first hand her pain and realize one mistake does not redefine her as a person.Now I also witnessed the olgjmj fiasco, if anyone would have tied her to the stake I would have gladly thrown the match. But hers was the worst example.osand B-4 it is said yes I'm going back to the Recovery board where I belong. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Trueheart,Re; (OH, sorry, even though I am repentant, remorseful, and have had a complete change of heart...I do not deserve that same forgiveness, for I have already proven myself unworthy since it was I that chose to do something that hurt someone else.) Please don’t let this get you down. You are a good guy and an inspiration to all. Anyone who has been here very long has a lot of respect for you. Like you say, if there is not forgiveness and repentance then why try? Without those none of us could go on and none of our marriages can be recovered.We have all made stupid choices in life. Mine have been different then yours, make have no doubt that I have made mine. I just have not come here and exposed them to the world. It has taken you a lot of courage to do that. You have helped many… me for one.I’m just concerned that you might be hurt by this. You do not deserve that.Righteous indignation is a very nasty fellow. It can boomeranged back and bit us in the a$$. Many of you do not know my H’s story as he has not posted on here in a while. The short story is that his first two wives left him for their OM. The first one just ran away when he was at work. He’s never seen her since. The second is quite an other story. By his own accounts he was very self righteous about all of this. Especially to his second wife. How could she defile the vows she made, yada yada yada… we’ve all said them and heard them. Then he says that the good Lord feed him some humble pie… he had a string of internet affairs between the time of his second divorce and up the 9th month of our marriage. This is a man who thougth he was above such ‘vial’ behavior. Says he now can be a little more forgiving of his wives. He understands how strange and pervasive the fog is. It was a very hard lesson to learn. I know it’s one that I do not want to learn.Another thing that I was thinking today is that if I had cheated on my ex-H during the last 7 years or our marriage, I don’t think I would have felt any remorse. Things were so bad, he was so out of the marriage and so abusive that I would have felt that he had no right to be upset. Perhaps I would have even felt justified. In my darkest moments I wish I had.. I’d have at least had someone to hold me instead of someone to yell at me and belittle me day after day. So when a WS comes here and tells us that their marriage is the pits, that they had an affair because their BS was not just not meeting their needs but was being abusive, I understand where they are coming from. I have to have some compassion. An affair is never the right choice. It is always morally wrong. But humans often seek to fill their needs first and worry about the morality of things later.These are very complex issues. Every story here may have a similar thread but they are all unique.

Yep, acceptance, understanding, patience, forgiveness.... we're all striving for that. THis IS a great place to voice opinions, and they are just that.. opinions. Based on our own limited knowledge and experience. How better to learn than to sit back and listen? Perhaps ask questions? Accept and respect people while they're trying to figure themselves out? Respect people... but not necessarily their actions. "Hate the sin, love the sinner."Those of us practicing plan A, this is also a great communication "practice ground" for non-LB communication. Let's practice it! We probably all know someone that has been - or is - a WS or OP. And if you know their situation, you might can actually see HOW they got in that situation. None of us are perfect, and there really is NO excuse for infidelity... but attacking someone, ramming your opinions down their throat, or preaching at them WON'T change their mind, nor will it bring them to a point of WANTING to change the situation they are in. We are all doing the best we can in life to figure ourselves out - our goals and dreams - and how to get along with each other. We don't want someone else trying to fix us or change us.How have we learned to deal with our own WS's in our marriages? By preaching at them? Judging them? Telling them how WRONG they are??? nope. So shouldn't we treat all WS's and OP's like we treat our own? With respect.... no anger, no selfish demands, no judgments....Oh well... there's my 2 cents. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Yes I have known at least a few OP in my time. One my best friend and one my H. Think about it, our spouses are OP to someone. And yes I continued to love them, not for what they were doing, but because I knew they were about a whole lot more than the A's.I talked to my friend and was honest about what I saw happening thanks to a lot of what I learned here. She started paying attention to what was happening and what she was hearing and don't you know she broke it off because he was lying to her. Enter A #2 which she thought was okay because she was separated. I talked to her again...this guy had just broken it off with a MW because she went back to her H. In the end same result. Is she still my friend. Yes, I will not desert her, it is obvious that she needs someone to talk to and be honest with her. That is me. She also needs a lot more help than just I can give her as she has had multiple one night stands as well, and I can point her in that directions also. She knows me and knows that she can trust me to tell her the truth and keep her best interest at heart.As for my H, yes I love him and I will not desert him either. He is my past and my future, in 50 years will this very small period of time in our lives REALLY matter. Not in the larger scheme of things I think ( or maybe hope). It will be a time that brought about a lot of change in both of us, and I hope that the things that we both have learned will carry us into old age together. It has not been easy, as a matter of fact there were times when I would have preferred death, but I survived and like the phoenix have risen from the ashes a beautiful magnificent bird ready to soar.Did I lose respect for them...yes...but only for the person that they were and the actions they were chosing at the time. Can that be changed, yes, but it also takes a change in everyone involved. Did I hate our OW? At times yes and even dreamed one time that I shot her. But when I finally let go of my anger, I found compassion. I understood why she felt the way she did (I felt the same way and was getting treated the same way by MY H), she made some VERY WRONG choices based on a lot of miscommunication and misinformation that had devastating consequences. But you know what, in the end I hope that she has found happiness in her life with her H and family.She was searching for something, so was my H. Both were lying first to themselves and then to others. Both were vulnerable...not a good combination. We all know the jist of what happens...the important thing is what we choose to do in the long run. Prolonging bitterness, hatred,
self pity does nothing to aid in recovery. I know, I been there/done that. I'm not saying that you ever have to do or feel anything about OP, but it helps to try and understand where they are coming from and just what it is that they are 'doing' for our spouses. The letters OW wrote to my H gave me great insight into that, and while I hated them passionately I could see why H was tempted and also the things that eventually would be the nail in their coffin. The biggest one... she didn't really know my H. So lets remember that while we may ----(choose your own word) the OP we are also living with one.

victoria farrar,Not all WS's are OP. To say that the WS is an OP implies that they are having an affair with a married person. That is not always the case.I did get the point of your post.. .it is a good one.

You are right, point taken ... but a good majority of them are. Glad that it made at least a little sense.P.S. If our OW HAD been single, the gloves would have come off and I would have ripped her to shreds and not had a second thought. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Would have felt bad later on, but that would have been my first instinctive reaction. Self protection I guess. So why did I have a totally different reaction because she was married? Guess I didn't want to be as destructive as she/they were being.[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: victoria farrar ]

I'm not sure why some of the more bitter-sounding BS tick me off on this board. I mean, I understand that they have been betrayed and very deeply hurt. I guess...I just think of how my own situation would be if I were dealing with an SO that was bitter and always throwing things that I had done back into my face. Some of them seem to wear their "poor me" badge a little too proudly...maybe because it absolves them from taking their part of the responsibility for what went wrong in the relationship pre-affair.If it's the WS's responsibility to repent what they've done, then it almost seems like the BS's responsibility to FORGIVE them for what they've done. Not forget, mind you...but forgive. I saw the BS's forgiveness described somewhere as an awesome power, and that's exactly what it is. Sure, you can bring up what the WS did to you to justify anything and everything you may want to...but how long do you think they'll stand for it?It makes me sad to see some of these bitter BS...with the kinds of attitudes they seem to be holding on to, I just don't see how they'll get too far in their recoveries any time soon.

Another thing...this may not be true for every OP...but I would imagine that many of them are victims in their own right. When you're a WS and you're relationship with your SO is going to hell, it's easy to give false promise after false promise to the OP...easy because at the time you believe these promises yourself...you don't think you're lying (maybe this is what's meant by the "fog").My OP didn't seek me out...I sought him out. He stayed with me because he loved me and because he believed that we would be together. He's no vicious homewrecker...and even if he didn't deserve your respect, he is at least deserving of your sympathy...as many of the OP are.[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by renee k:

but back to O-man. I'm just asking. You've got to know at least where the enemy can be found right? and wouldn't it beneficial to know THEIR weaknesses? The more you know - the clearner the kill? Right? just asking - and asking O-man.<hr></blockquote>Yes, education is the source of life. Knowledge is power. This forum can be a source of great advice or poor advice. The problem is discerning between the two extremes and avoiding the bad advice. BSs should be very cautious as to where they seek guidance.

I know I'm one of those bitter sounding BS's but truly it's because I have no cheeks left to turn. During my ex's A and during the seperation and divorce I played the nice guy and never lashed out, never demanded anything and never made their lives miserable. For playing nice and trying to keep things amicable I got in return:My savings drained to nothing because he kept blowing the bill money on OW and I kept having to withdraw from my account to keep us fed and a roof over our head.My schooling cut short because the turmoil that ensued made it impossibe for me to keep up.My home business destroyed because I was violently driven from my home one night when he pulled a knife on me and things fell into neglect.He put my cats to sleep while I was away at my mother's taking a break from it all and we were deciding the fate of our marriage(after the knife incident). OW was allergic to them and so couldn't come to our home until they were gone.He threw away most of my possessions in that time as well to make room for other things.Transferred all of his debt(30,000) of it into my name(I had better credit and could get us a lower apr and thought I was helping us out) right before pulling all of this(one month later it started and I believe this move was calculated)and left me with it resulting in my having to declare bankrupcy while he is smelling like a rose and debt free.I've gotten no support or divorce settlement even though I put him through college due to the fact he left me so broke I couldn't afford a lawyer.I have been virtually homeless since Feb. because of all this and am only going to have a new place come January. So there you go. My ex and the OW did a job on me and yes, I'm bitter. I'm sorry but being understanding, nonjudgemental and avoiding anger has left me in the poor house. The last year has been hell and I'm only now recovering meanwhile they've been having a grand old time of it.Both of them have laughed at me and the fact that their affair went on under my nose because I trusted my ex implicitly. Both think they did very little wrong and it just happened. I've paid in every way possible for his and her actions and I'm tired. I'm tired of forgiving and holding in my anger. I'm sorry but I'm only human too.I vented on Hailey because I'm tired of listening to people go on and on about how "it just happened" and that there's something morally ambiguous about all this. No. It's wrong and that's all there is to it. Why is it that shame is such a dirty word now? Why can't we call people on the things they do wrong? Yes, I've done stupid things in my life and I've been called on them. I'm tired of coddling people who are destructive and hurtful and inconsiderate.[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]

To Nduli2,
You will recover and will see better days. No one has any right to comment on how you should feel. Hang in there.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
I'm not sure why some of the more bitter-sounding BS tick me off on this board. I mean, I understand that they have been betrayed and very deeply hurt. I guess...I just think of how my own situation would be if I were dealing with an SO that was bitter and always throwing things that I had done back into my face. If it's the WS's responsibility to repent what they've done, then it almost seems like the BS's responsibility to FORGIVE them for what they've done. Not forget, mind you...but forgive. I saw the BS's forgiveness described somewhere as an awesome power, and that's exactly what it is. Sure, you can bring up what the WS did to you to justify anything and everything you may want to...but how long do you think they'll stand for it?It makes me sad to see some of these bitter BS...with the kinds of attitudes they seem to be holding on to, I just don't see how they'll get too far in their recoveries any time soon.<hr></blockquote>
Often venting on this board doesn't have a thing to do with the current state of our marriages. I have NEVER, EVER thrown the affair in my H's face and we have been in a happy and successful recovery for over 2 and a half years. He asked for my forgiveness and his actions showed true remorse. That's what counts. I still have a lot of hatred for the OW because after the affair was over she harassed ME and tried to make my life hell. Before I hear "You need to forgive or it will eat you up inside blah blah" I am not that kind of person. Forgiveness to me is earned, and it's a feeling that I either have or I don't. I could say "I forgive her" until I'm blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. She doesn't deserve my forgiveness. Let God forgive her if he wants to. I am also not the kind of person who has any problem having animosity towards someone in a passive way. It doesn't "eat away at me" or otherwise effect my every day life. I don't hink about it much unless I'm on the board and it's been well over 2 years since she, or anything about the A, have been discuused in our home. So don't assume that every BS is throwing the A in our spouse's face. My main problem with the unrepentant OP and WS is that I remember all too well the agonizing pain I went through, and I can almost feel it again when I hear about someone else going through it. There are many people here in the midst of their spouses' active affairs. The last thing they need to have is some OW coming here telling them that they drove their spouse away, and lots of people find true love with their OP, and the BS should just let the WS go to be happy with that new soulmate etc etc. That is not "marriage building". IMO a single OW who isn't sorry for her involvement in an A only posts here for one reason, to cause pain and trouble to people who are already at one of the lowest points of their lives.[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: fairydust ]

Please don't get the impression that I was telling anyone how they should feel. Only what I feel/felt and how I arrived at it.Nduli - what your H did was abhorrant and I would have been tempted to run him down with truck. But what better way to get your revenge than to smile like you don't care, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, say yes I got screwed, but screw you too, I am not going to let this destroy me. And then set out to make a life for yourself of your own making and one that suits YOU. I am not making light of your situation. I cannot imagine your life, I am not living it. But I had my own taste of H*** and vowed that I would not let them take me down to their level; then I found my way and off I went. Hard, hard, hard...and I fought myself all the way. But having got to this point I am glad that I did. I learned a lot and experienced alot that is invaluable.

TowardsTheFuture
RE: I'm not sure why some of the more bitter-sounding BS tick me off on this board. I mean, I understand that they have been betrayed and very deeply hurt. I guess...I just think of how my own situation would be if I were dealing with an SO that was bitter and always throwing things that I had done back into my face. Some of them seem to wear their "poor me" badge a little too proudly...maybe because it absolves them from taking their part of the responsibility for what went wrong in the relationship pre-affair. The thing is that some of the BS’s on this post who sound the most bitter in THIS post are the very people who have worked their butts off to learn about themselves, to become better people and understand their WS’s. I think that maybe part of what you are seeing is that sometimes they come here when they are really hurting and just let it fly… this is the only place they can safely let the anger out. What I am trying to say is that there is a lot going on here that does not meet the eye.As an MB member there is a lot you could do to help the people you are talking about get through their anger. Statements like “some of the more bitter-sounding” is too broad to be of any help to anyone. If you see a member being bitter then you could help by very respectfully and kindly bringing it up to them. Help them through this. You will find that the more you give the more you will get. There are always some BS’s, OP’s and WS’s here who are wearing the “poor me” badge a little too proudly (no implying you by any means). We can gently nudge them out of their corner and help them find a better way. That is why we are here. You have a particular vantage point that others might not. Please share it. Especially on a one to one basis.You are right about the responsibilities here. IMHO… the WS is responsible for helping the BS heal, for repenting, for proving their continued fidelity on an on going basis so as to make the BS feel safe. The BS is responsible for giving the WS a safe place so that they can open up, repent and return to the marriage. BOTH parties are responsible for working on the marriage. The OP is responsible for their actions and for getting out of the picture.RE: If it's the WS's responsibility to repent what they've done, then it almost seems like the BS's responsibility to FORGIVE them for what they've done. Not forget, mind you...but forgive. This forgiveness has to be earned by the WS. It will not be given. But the BS should create safe place where the WS can earn that forgiveness. Dr. Harley has an interesting take on forgiveness… it can be found on the home page of the MB web site. RE: “It makes me sad to see some of these bitter BS...with the kinds of attitudes they seem to be holding on to, I just don't see how they'll get too far in their recoveries any time soon.”Again here is a ‘group accusation’. It can be taken as offensive by those of use who are not of that mentality. I know it makes me think that you are talking about me too. You want people to be accepting and forgiving of you. I understand the pain you are going through. If you will read my last posting to Trueheart on this thread you will see where I am coming from. I feel that I have been supportive of you and would like the respect and understanding returned. Are you saying these things to me? Please say them to the people they are directed at not to everyone.You have many good points to make here and a lot to offer. I know that you are in a lot of pain, but you seem to be lashing out at all BS’s with great anger and bitterness. I know that I have been almost afraid to post to you but have done so anyway as I am trying very hard to see beyond that anger and bitterness. From what you have said, you may have a lot in your life to feel angry about. That’s ok… but please let us in.RE: Another thing...this may not be true for every OP...but I would imagine that many of them are victims in their own right. When you're a WS and you're relationship with your SO is going to hell, it's easy to give false promise after false promise to the OP...easy because at the time you believe these promises yourself...you don't think you're lying (maybe this is what's meant by the "fog").
My OP didn't seek me out...I sought him out. He stayed with me because he loved me and because he believed that we would be together. He's no vicious home wrecker...and even if he didn't deserve your respect, he is at least deserving of your sympathy...as many of the OP are.You see this is where I differ with you. I was an OP once. The guy lied to me and told me that his divorce was ready to be signed. I’d known him since I was 13... We had been child hood sweethearts and had always thought we‘d be married. I was 30 at the time this happened. What he forgot to tell me was that he’s move back in with his wife. When I found out that he’d been lying to me I was furious and immediately broke it off. And rest assured that I was head over heels in love with this man and it tore my heart out. So when I say what I am about to say it is not from the vantage point of an ‘angry, bitter’ BS. It is from the vantage point of an ex OP … one who never wanted to be one but who was none the less. And it is MY OPINION:Our society no longer honors marriage. What we have collectively forgotten is that a marriage is not over until it is over. I was not a victim even though I knew that the divorce papers were filed and being negotiated before I started to see him again. Any OP who stays with a WS once they know that person is married is not a victim. They know that adultery is wrong and that there are consequences. It is not a judgment of the person, but of the action. What I learned from my experience is to not ever, ever date anyone until the ink is dry on the divorce papers. It was a painful lesson. Maybe your OM will have learned that lesson too. If he really is not a home wreaker then I hope he goes in peace and is more careful of his heart in the future. But just like being a WS is wrong, being an OP is wrong. I was wrong. Your OM was wrong. Because we were all wrong does not mean that I am making a judgment of the person. It is the action I am judging. And it does not mean that we cannot all learn from our experience and move on. I have no sympathy for myself for being involved with Tommy while his divorce was supposedly in progress. I have never asked anyone to give me sympathy or forgiveness of that. It was a stupid choice I made. My leaving him the moment I found out about his lie was the only right choice I could make. Since I can give myself no sympathy, I cannot give any other OP any sympathy. It was stupid, stupid, stupid… I suffered terribly for it. I deserved the suffering, it was part of my healing. And I’ve done that totally on my own because I will not burden others with my own stupidity. I have however forgiven myself. I have also never really had closure with Tommy. He was another woman’s husband and he no business giving me one more moment of his time. I know that my take on things might seem harsh. I do not mean for them to be. It is just who I am. I am not angry or bitter. I am emphatic. I wish I could help everyone through their pain. But that is not possible.

TowardsTheFuture...Just as their are stages of grief...there are stages in the recovery process for both the infidel and spouse...Anger is an important part of the recovery process for the spouse...just as withdrawal is important part for the infidel...The more you learn about the anatomy of an affair...the recovery phases...the aftermath...the more processed the affair is and the better recovered the couple can be...

I have picked myself up, dusted myself off and managed everything on my own. I have had minimal help from any family or friends, have not borrowed a dime from anyone and have done this all by force of will. But it doesn't take away the anger at him and her. I doesn't erase the memory of him calling me a F-ing monster and that he was going to ruin me because I e-maied the OW and made her cry. Those things stay with you and unfortunately change you. I will never be as trusting again with anyone and I will most likely never feel 100 percent safe in a relationship. All this was from out of nowhere and no one could have been more shocked than I was at the raw cruelty I was shown. But my ex was mentally ill and I blame myself in some ways for not guessing that his illness could make him capable of these things.
I don't hate anyone but I am angry and tired of this society that seems to encourage trashing other people or at the very least disregarding their feelings. I'm not claiming moral superiority, who can, but I know that my entire life's philosophy has been "do no harm" and now that outlook on life has been taken away due to my feeling that you can't trust anyone and it's best to always be on your gaurd.

Regarding bitter-sounding BS, this place is about being honest about the pain we've suffered and looking for help to fix a mess we played either only some part in, or none at all. (zorweb springs to mind here.) I would never call my husband a big dumb jerk to his face, that would certainly LB, but does it ever help to have somewhere to whisper those words when I'm at wits end. I've even heard his parents say that, proving that loving someone doesn't mean that you have to empathize with their sinful behavior.I would love it if my husband posted here (which he won't because he can't even check our e-mail), but I would expect you all not to let him get away with foggy thinking. Nor would it help our marriage for him to be "validated" by having people respond "Oh, that was terrible of your wife! I can see why you had those affairs, and OBTW, they were wrong, you know."Trying to empathize with wrong-doing and understand how sin works leads to moral relativism, in my opinion, something our country suffers from WAY too much of. My first act when why my children misbehave is to make sure they know that it isn't acceptable and won't be tolerated. Only then do I have the leisure of trying to figure out why it happened so I can prevent it from tempting them again, if possible.Rose Red

Your points are all taken. Thank you (especially you, Z [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )

I apologize for my blanket statements about "bitter" BS's...it's hard to remember that a lot of our situations are totally different from each other. None of us, whether we're BS, WS, or OP, can really lump any of the other groups into one category. I was just speaking from my own hurt.

TTf,If all this outpouring of words, pain, anger, frustration etc. as shared by all (OP,BS, WS, etc.....) has helped 1 person understand as you have indicated, then it is worth the effort. Many of those responding here and on the other thread speak not from just today but from what they have seen, learned and heard from past experiences both here at MB and abroad. This is not the first time an OW (they show up with a vengence more than OMs)hmmm.... wonder why?!?!? Anyway, this is not the first time an OW shows up here in anger, stirs up the pot, name calls, puts blame, only points fingers and leaves. Leaving behind more pain and hurt on those trying to heal. What do we here do? We as a group pick up the pieces, continue our support (which sometimes comes in various measures of gentle, bold, firm, loving, caring, blunt, humorus, sad, tearful, joyous and sometimes sarcastic). We have done it before and will continue to do so. Those that don't post here much (old timers) showed us how and some of it we still have to learn. In turn, we share what we can with the new ones. Maybe not as well as others but it is our best and with the best of intentions. That is the difference. The reason why we are here. Some BS come here in anger and if they don't change, then their time here is shortened. Not because of others but because of themselves. Same with the WS, OW, OM, etc. So this is just another notch on our belts of survival. JMHO,
L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
It makes me sad to see some of these bitter BS...with the kinds of attitudes they seem to be holding on to, I just don't see how they'll get too far in their recoveries any time soon.<hr></blockquote>I don't know what you are calling "bitterness" but much of what I see called "bitterness" in relation to the BS around here is actually anger towards corruption and deceit. A RIGHTEOUS anger that any decent person feels. And this accusation is usually levelled by those who are bothered by honest direct opinions.Often, WS come here and try to justify the unjustifiable and, I don't know about you, but when I see someone trying to justify, rationalize or deceive, I get a little angry and insulted - and always have. Now is that a result of some bitterness on my part? No, because I am not bitter at all towards my WS. I have ZERO bitterness towards anyone who is honest and doesn't try to bull**** me about what they have done - we have many WS around here who are completely honest and take full accountability for thier actions and I have nothing but good will for them. BUT, ANGER is exactly what happens when a decent person sees corruption or deceit taking place. So I really wish you would clarify what you mean by "bitterness" instead of using a broadbrush that avails no meaning to anyone.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
I apologize for my blanket statements about "bitter" BS's...it's hard to remember that a lot of our situations are totally different from each other. None of us, whether we're BS, WS, or OP, can really lump any of the other groups into one category. I was just speaking from my own hurt.<hr></blockquote>thanks for saying so, TTF, I didn't see your eloquent statement when I made my last post. Thanks for clarifying your statement.

Just looking back over the post folks and wanted to ask Zorweb a question. You say that "forgiveness has to be earned" - Zorweb I can't remember but are you a christian? I ask because where would any of us be if "forgiveness had to be earned?

renee k,Excuse my butting in on your question. Thankfully, God's forgiveness doesn't need to be earned. We already have it by His grace. That an "us and God" thing.However, human to human forgiveness is a different matter. An evil doer who is repentant and changes his/her ways earns forgiveness. Makes things a lot easier. Sometimes forgiveness simply has to be an act of will from the BS to the WS, something not earned. According to MB concepts, though, the relationship will heal much faster if the WS intentionally behaves in a manner to restore trust and earn forgiveness.Just MHO,
Estes

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by renee k:
Just looking back over the post folks and wanted to ask Zorweb a question. You say that "forgiveness has to be earned" - Zorweb I can't remember but are you a christian? I ask because where would any of us be if "forgiveness had to be earned?<hr></blockquote>I agree with Zorweb that TRUST has to be earned, however, the only requirement for forgiveness is REPENTENCE. And repentence is the TURNING AWAY from wrongdoing and feeling remorse, in other words, REPROVING themselves. REPENT
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind
transitive senses
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
- re·pent·er noun
It is bad business to hand out "forgiveness" like some cheap candy to the unrepentent because then they have no motivation to change their ways - and THAT would be doing them a disservice. It simply cheapens the concept of forgiveness to hand it out unbidden.Luke 17:2-4 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.Luke 17:3-5 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."

When you carry it out to it's logical conclusion, zorweb is right. To get forgiveness from a person, one has to REPROVE oneself, which is essentially the same thing as EARNING it.

I'll say this about forgiveness, and it may be where zorweb is coming from too...It's hard enough forgiving once, but when your partner, your spouse, your LIFE cheats over and over again, it FEELS IMPOSSIBLE. No amount of Christian upbringing or belief can just zap the pain of multiple infidelities away.

I just feel like as the Lord's Prayer says "Our father who art in heaven ... forgive us our traspasses even as we forgive those who traspass against us" I believe that Trust must be earned. But I'm personally not willing to dole out forgiveness as an earned thing - heaven knows I need my heavenly fathers forgiveness and he's commanded me to forgive as he forgives me. I'm going with him on this one folks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by renee k:
But I'm personally not willing to dole out forgiveness as an earned thing - heaven knows I need my heavenly fathers forgiveness and he's commanded me to forgive as he forgives me. I'm going with him on this one folks.<hr></blockquote>Yes, I agree you do need to go with Him on this one. But He outlines the conditions in the Bible, which are that one must repent. Just as it states in the Bible.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
I'll say this about forgiveness, and it may be where zorweb is coming from too...It's hard enough forgiving once, but when your partner, your spouse, your LIFE cheats over and over again, it FEELS IMPOSSIBLE. No amount of Christian upbringing or belief can just zap the pain of multiple infidelities away.<hr></blockquote>can't argue with that, Sherry!!

Yes I am Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact. My husband is Byzantine (or Malakite) Catholic.Most of issues like forgiveness are about the same in all major religions. The Jewish, Catholic (and Christian), and Moslem faiths all have the same roots. They are all 'OF THE BOOK". So much of the same beliefs hold.Before you read my response to your question, read the letters and replies by at the following link. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.htmlDr. Harley did a wonderful job of explaining the idea of the WS compensating the BS for the wrong of the affairs. That is how forgiveness is earned.MelodyLane's analysis is right. God's forgiveness is freely given. But humans earn forgiveness through repentance. Repentance without acts of contrition is not repentance at all. To simply say one is sorry is not enough. To behave in a manner that shows one's repentance does matter.In Harely's response to letter, he says that the WS must compensate the BS. This of course does not mean money or diamond bracelets. I remember that our first wedding anniversary was 3 months after d-day. I could see STL's gears going.. he wanted to get me the one present for our anniversary that would make it all up to me. For some reason I got the idea that a diamond bracelet was coming. So I sat him down and told him that anything gift of any monetary value would actually be a slap I the face. It would signify that I could be bought off with money. Instead he offered to take me on a long weekend trip to Santa Fe and pamper me. It was like a mini honeymoon. I felt like a queen. He also sent out the no-contact letters at that time. That was great compensation. He knew that I no longer felt special. So he did what he knew would make me feel special.Another example of repentance in action that we have used STL doing things to help me feel safe. He understands that I do not want to feel like I am the police looking over his shoulder always trying to prove he is/is-not cheating. So he willingly put the keystroke monitoring software on his computers, gave me the passwords to all of his email, messenger and email accounts. To show my appreciation for what he is doing and that I too agree to live in total openness and radical honesty I am doing exactly the same thing for him.Another thing he is doing to repent (earn forgiveness) is that he is very supportive of my pain. The way he puts it is that he has caused the pain, therefore he must help heal it. He has been by rock and comfort though all of this. To watch how he could stand there and admit to me what he did and then help me work through it has shown me that he is the man of character I thought I had married. It takes quite a person to do that all the while wanting for it all to be forgotten. In tern I make sure that I judge and LB to him as little as I can. I am well aware of the gift he is giving me in his repentance and support.So repentance earns forgiveness (though Dr. Harley says it should probably never really be forgiven. I think that it eventually will be totally forgiven by me. I am working on that one.) And repentance though action is the way to compensate the BS for the hurt of the WS's affair(s).Trust and forgiveness are very tightly coupled, IMHO. So if one is working on earning one, the other can be earned too.Yes it is possible for human's to give forgiveness freely. But I am often not sure this type of forgiveness, for very grievous actions, is sincere. Don't know? I'm not a theologian and have not thought through all possible case here. I do know that it is in our best interest to strive to "forgive those who trespass against us."RE: Luke 17:3-5 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."Note that from this passage, a person must repent for each sin individually.RE: But I'm personally not willing to dole out forgiveness as an earned thing - heaven knows I need my heavenly fathers forgiveness and he's commanded me to forgive as he forgives me. I'm going with him on this one folks.Where does the heavenly father command us to forgive as he forgives us? The Lord's prayer is not a commandment. It is an example prayer, written to teach people who to pray with humility and praise of the Lord. The prayer is statement of a human's wish to be able to forgive and realizing that they cannot ask for any more forgiveness then they dole out themselves. For those of you who can look this up. Is there something in the bible that contradicts Luke 17:3-5?Remember that God and Jesus recognize that we are not at the same level they are. We can only strive follow their example. But in Luke 17:3-5 it is clear that we are not expected to blindly forgive. There are some very stringent rules set down in the Bible and other church readings. I do not believe that blanket forgiveness shows up anywhere.One thing to remember is that unlike many BS's I share absolutely no part in my h's affairs. I have no responsibility for a deteriorated relationship at the time of the affairs. This is unusual but it does happen. So my feelings about there might be different if I had been instrumental in the deterioration of our relationship. In my previous marriage I know that I was not perfect and contributed to the problems. But not in this marriage. Melodylane is right about the number of affairs too? my H had affairs going with atleast 10 women. The sheer volume of it makes my stomach and head hurt. There is a lot to get through in my relationship.I don't know if I am right or not. This all my opinion in the final analysis. All I know is that the approach is working wonders for STL and I. We are well into a very strong recovery. And I am well on by way to forgiving him. We all know that neither he nor I will ever forget. But that's good? maybe the memory will keep us on track.

I responded to your questions....

The book of Matthew has several passages about forgiveness. A good book to read and study - most is Jesus speaking, telling us what we are to do.Mat 6:14 "For if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."Mat 18:35: "So likewise shall my Heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."Mark 11:25 "And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any; that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses".Mat 5:39 "But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoevere shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away they coat; let him have thy cloak also."Mat 5:44-48 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you, 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect".Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?Mat 5:23-24 "23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth."

Dear Alcoholics wife,
Thank you so very much. You are obviously a kind and wonderful person. You must be very wise too. I suppose that your story could surpass many of the ones here in the amount of forgivenss that you've probably had to measure out in your life. On top of adultry you have suffered other pains I'm sure.
But I'll bet our father in heaven sees that your heart is kind and will be with you on your journey.
I can't say anything more than thank-you for speaking.

Dear Renee,
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, there has been great turmoil in my marriage, being married to an alcoholic is hard, hard, hard. Ours is a long story -- I have been a MB member for over 2 years, but I do want to encourage you all that there is hope. I think I posted a praise testimony last Feb. about the dramatic changes God has made in my marriage. Right after my h moved back home I read the "Power of a Praying Wife"; it changed my life. In the past I was always angry at my h because of his drinking and other behavior. God worked on my heart first, then I began to see how He is working on my dh. God used what Satan intended for evil for good and His glory. Nothing is impossible with God. Nothing. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

What a deep story you have AW. I read once that prayer isn't about God hearing us - it's about us hearing God. I liked that.
I hope somemore people respond to thier feelings on the scriptures you quoted.
Living an authentic life isn't easy. I find it requires constant remembrance of things like forgivenss, love, and compassion. I also find that if we intend forgivenss - then it's forgiveness we will receive as well. Sometimes the easiest concepts are the hardest to follow.
Most of the time the easiest concepts are the hardest to follow. I only try to make my life easier and listen to my soul not my head.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:
The book of Matthew has several passages about forgiveness. A good book to read and study - most is Jesus speaking, telling us what we are to do.."<hr></blockquote>AW,I, of course, agree with the scriptures that state that we are commanded to forgive [what we don't forgive will be withheld from US by our Father in Heaven] however, that is not the issue. No one would argue with that. One must look at the ENTIRITY of the text about forgiveness as to get a complete understanding. The issue at hand is whether one must repent [or EARN] to receive forgiveness. And the scriptures are quite clear that forgiveness is not given to the unrepentent, but to the REPENTENT. Forgiveness is not to handed out like some cheap meaningless candy. Just as Christ forgave our sins WHEN WE WERE REPENTENT, we are to forgive our brother *WHEN* he is repentent. In Jesus' words [and the rest of the Bible is just as relevent because it is inspired by God, btw]About brother to brother:Luke 17:2-5 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."About God to man:Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.Acts 2:38 Acts 2 Acts 2:37-39 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.Acts 3:19 Acts 3 Acts 3:18-20 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,Romans 2:4-6 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.Matthew 11:19-21 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.So, you are correct that forgiveness is required but it is with stipulations otherwise it just cheapens the gift of forgiveness and does harm to the one who needs forgiveness. [they don't see the wrong in their ways and hence, have no motivation to change]And as an alcholic myself, I have to say that if I received blanket unearned forgiveness for my crimes against my family, I would probably still be drunk. [17 years sober] However, my H withheld that forgiveness until I changed my behavior, giving me STRONG motivation to take a hard look at my behavior and change. If he hadn't done that, believe me, I would have continued to drink and just soaked the situation for all it was worth. [as a typical alkie does]

Yes I agree that the easiest concepts are the hardest to follow! Especially this one "let go and let God handle it". For me that is the very hardest. I struggle with that concept every day. But when I look back I see that when God handled things, it turned out MUCH better. Sometimes it looks like everything is going wrong but in hindsight we see what God had done and know that it had to be that way. There's been times I felt like my heart was being ripped to shreds, and why was God letting my husband hurt me the way he was? The answer I received was my husband is a gift from God to me, because He knew that I would pray for him and with God's help and guidance, would be able to withstand the fire that we have gone through in order for my h to become the Godly head of our household He intends him to be. Every day is another turn through the refiner's fire.... Keep listening to that small, still voice in your heart and soul. God bless you,AW

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:

Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?."<hr></blockquote>This is one of the most misquoted scriptures in the Bible, [not saying that you are trying to misuse it here] because the meaning of the scripture changes ENTIRELY when you chop off 4 and 5. Without the remaining verses one would think it is an admonition AGAINST judging right from wrong! Nothing could be further from the truth! So lets look at the verses that complete this message:Matthew 7: 4-5 ""<*1> Or how [1] can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5
""You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.So you see, it is not an admonishment against judgment, which we are CALLED to do righteously, but an admonishment against HYPOCRISY. For example, if I am an adulterer, then I have no right to admonish my brother about adultery. I must change my ways [remove the mote] before I proceed to help my brother.About judgment:John 7: 24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

Melody,
I love reading God's Word. Every time I do I see something else that jumps off the page at me. Thank you for posting those scriptures. They helped me remember how much Jesus gave up for us.God's word is so powerful and true; the scripture you quoted Romans 2:4-6 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed" says much. It tells me that it is between God and the unrepentant, He will deal with them. I have always felt great conviction to be forgiving and kind to all, regardless of what they have done to me, because of God's word that vengeance is His, He will repay. One scripture that God laid on my heart right after my dh and I reconciled was Prov 31:12 "She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life", this verse comes to my mind often as I reminder that I can't go back to being a contentious wife. God has also impressed upon me 1 Peter 3. My husband is an alcoholic. One who is not sober yet. There is no explaining the dramatic changes in his heart other than God's intervention. Today I am so very glad I listened to the voice in my heart that kept telling me to forgive him (even though he never asked for forgiveness) and let Him heal us instead of the world who told me to get rid of him, divorce him, etc. I truly believe that in my situation forgiving the OW even though she was unrepentant was what God wanted me to do. Her sin is no greater than any sin I have committed. I believe that God loves her very much, and wants her to draw close to Him. I pray for her still. May the Lord bless you abundantly,
AW

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:
Today I am so very glad I listened to the voice in my heart that kept telling me to forgive him (even though he never asked for forgiveness) and let Him heal us instead of the world who told me to get rid of him, divorce him, etc. I truly believe that in my situation forgiving the OW even though she was unrepentant was what God wanted me to do. Her sin is no greater than any sin I have committed. I believe that God loves her very much, and wants her to draw close to Him. I pray for her still. May the Lord bless you abundantly,
AW<hr></blockquote>AW,That's very noble of you to so freely pass out forgiveness, [whether they want it or not] but I have to wonder if they suggest doing that for a practicing alcoholic in Al-Anon? I have been an AA member for 17 years and I know how the alcoholic mind works, and we will get away with what we can get away with. For example, if our spouse overlooked our drunkeness, lies, deceit, adultery and general destruction, we continued on our merry way - often until it killed us. But it was when someone stepped full force in our path and SHOCKED us that we were forced to reevaluate our drinking. Otherwise, we usually had no motivation to quit. I do know several alcoholics who just died drunk because no one ever held them accountable. Enabling is a terribly dangerous thing to an alcoholic and it is a big mistake to think that kindness and reason will ever work to get an alcoholic to the table of sobriety. Remember, Christianity is not about kindness and saying nice sounding words, but about the TRUTH. It is not a kindness to enable an alcoholic, but the kiss of death. 1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by MelodyLane:

I have been an AA member for 17 years and I know how the alcoholic mind works, and we will get away with what we can get away with. For example, if our spouse overlooked our drunkeness, lies, deceit, adultery and general destruction, we continued on our merry way - often until it killed us. But it was when someone stepped full force in our path and SHOCKED us that we were forced to reevaluate our drinking. Otherwise, we usually had no motivation to quit. I do know several alcoholics who just died drunk because no one ever held them accountable. Enabling is a terribly dangerous thing to an alcoholic and it is a big mistake to think that kindness and reason will ever work to get an alcoholic to the table of sobriety. Remember, Christianity is not about kindness and saying nice sounding words, but about the TRUTH. It is not a kindness to enable an alcoholic, but the kiss of death. 1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.<hr></blockquote>ML,Your above quote rings soooo true.... Like an alcoholic, those in the A go through the same steps. My H told me that as long as I put up with it, he felt he could go on like that forever. So all my 'help' was not help at all. I was a major enabler and he was sucking me dry. It got to the point that I had to say 'NO....you GO' before he would face reality. That is why for some of us the only way out is tough love. Otherwise we would continue to be used & abused for the rest of our lives. The piece that gets me is the gall the OP's have in thinking it is ok to do this to others. The OP does not know me. H was dumb enough to show her our picture so she does know what I look like but she does not know me. Have we both been judgemental of each other without fully knowing each other (OW & I)? YES but I did it out of protection of self and family, what did she do it for? I believe her reasons were selfish and to the point that she was and is willing to hurt others for it.
I see her as the alocholic's so-called friend, that is always there to say: "hey buddy, I'll buy you a drink".So I see a lot of simiarlity here between various types of addictions and As. The problem with the A is that legally it is allowed and so legal recourse for most of us is difficult and it is not as easy to diagnose and fix. L.

AW - I agree and see your point. To withhold "forgiveness" I would think that one would be harbouring "anger" because If I am not ANGRY at you then I don't feel the need to Forgive you - but If I am ANGRY at YOU then that would be the emotion that would perpetuate my wanting to forgive you. I think that holding onto anger only hurts us - it destroys a body both phsycially and mentally and emotionally - it is like a weed and will choke your spirit.
I think that it would take holding onto Anger to not forgive somebody and the only person that is destructive to is me.

I guess the bottom line is that it's an act of compassion to motivate someone to REPENT but not an act of compassion to pass out forgiveness and deny the unrepentent any motivation to change from thier ways. I consider it the ultimate act of LOVE from God that He commands our repentence in order to receive forgiveness. Otherwise, we have no reason to change and instead are cut off from God by continuing in sin. Just like the scriptures say, God commands our repentence and instructs us to require the same from those we love. Because it is an act of love.

I'm not going to add anything to what MelodyLane has said here. She's done a wonderful job of presenting exactly how I feel and what I believe.Forgiveness without repentance is of no value to the sinner (I always hate to use that word.). It can release the victim from anger but it does not really release the sin. Therefore it is not truly forgiveness. IMHO of course.I also feel that anger is not directly tied to forgiveness. I do not have to harbor anger at a person to not forgive them. For example, years ago I hired a woman who needed some one to give her a chance when her H left her for his OW. She was not qualified for the job but she had the degree. So I hired her and mentored her. She never quite got the jest of the position but kept working with her. Then I got pregnant with twins and was bedridden through about 6 months of the pregnancy. Was working from home doing much of my work... like writing white papers, designs, etc. She was the person who was supposed to be brining me hard copies of things I needed from work. It turns out that she withheld most of the stuff she was supposed to give me. A lot of it was still in her car when I went back to work. Well without that material, the work I'd done at home was woefully deficient. The entire time I was home she was working on management to erode their confidence in me. After all I'd done such a poor job on the design and white papers. She wanted them to give her my job. Also turned out that she was having an affair with the new manager directly over our contract. I had a good reputation, higher management saw what was going on eventually. Both she and her ‘boy friend’ were moved elsewhere and I kept my position . (I think the moral here is that no good deed goes unpunished.)I’ve released my anger at her. She was scared, hurt, in a bad situation and made some very bad choices. But I have never forgiven her. She used my illness and the still birth of my twins as an opportunity to attempt to screw me over. She has never admitted that she did anything wrong. If anything she continued to attack me until the last time I saw her. The last time I spoke to her she came to my house to play some head trip with me. In my book she is an untrustworthy person. I asked her to leave and to stay away from me. As I said, I am not angry at her I just cannot trust her. If I cannot trust her then obviously I have not forgiven her. And there is no reason for me to do either. This is between her and God now. I’ve released it to Him.The way I think of it is that we do not help a person be the best they can me when we just give them a blanket forgiveness.

Your right Zorweb. That example reminded me of a friend that I vouched for for a postion in our company and then she totally screwed me over too. And never any remorse - lucky I also had a good rep and no permenate harm was done - but that description hit home- your right - I'm not angry at her anymore - but I don't think I can forgive her until she admitts she did me wrong.
Good point and story to illustrate.

Bingo!! Z as usual you hit the nail right on the head. What was done by others was wrong. All that stuff to undermine you behind your back was wrong. Not able to forgive the wrong. Believe it or not, I am willing to forgive the OW if she stops what she is doing. But there is no forgiveness available until then. You know what? That is my right. Same goes for hubby also. My elder's told me (& I already knew this but it was good to hear again), they said that adultery is the one sin that God allows the betrayed spouse to forgive. He does leave that up to the betrayed spouse. This is scriptural. So this sin of adultery is truly between the H & W & God. This is what that 3 fold cord spoken of in the Bible really means. The relationship between H, W & God is more than a piece of paper and those who want to mimimize that need to realize you are not just messing with another human (or sub-human if that what the OP wants to think of the BS) but that OP and WS are actually 'messing' with God. Think that will go unpunished? Well, they can find either amend their ways and 'ask for forgiveness' or find out if God is a person of his word or not. I sure wouldn't want to be the one who puts God to the test. Jesus said that was one thing we all should NOT do. Hm....... ok being a bit religious here but if that is for real, do you really want to make Him angry? Religious or not it will happen to all. If someone is not religious, it does not mean they would escape punishment. That logic doesn't fly in a major diaster and will not fly with God either. Think about 911, many good and bad people suffered the same consquences. That incident was not God's doing just an example of how an incident currently affects all persons if they happen to be in that place at that time. Ok, I will get off my box and go to work.....JMHO,
L.

I was just thinking what powerful words "please forgive me" are.

I just don't know...I was LUCKILY able to forgive OW without knowing if she personally repented or not...without knowing if she was truly remorseful for the pain she caused me.I think it's OKAY to forgive even if the person doesn't DESIRE and/or "deserve" to be forgiven.In the case of Hailey (or olmjmj), I think that they both just need more time for personal growth and reflection. I don't believe that either of these women purposefully sought out to hurt their spouse and/or the spouse of the OP. In fact, they most likely did just the opposite: failed to even take us into consideration.Hailey and her OP should be commended on recognizing that they are both hurting an "innocent" spouse. They have taken the first step in admitting that what they are doing is wrong...now, they need to go the next step and "free" themselves from the pain they have created. They must find their "peace".Likewise, a BS who finds "fault" with Hailey and/or OP in general, also needs more time for greater personal growth. IMHO, a BS who is hurt/angered by Hailey's words has not yet come "full circle" in understanding themselves.There was a time, when I was first struggling with my H's affair, that I allowed OW's posts to personally affect me. I would become almost obsessed with proving my point--how what OW was doing was evil, wrong, ugly, sinful, etc. etc. etc. But, OW like Hailey haven't "evolved" enough yet to understand their own shortcomings; while BS still in pain haven't "evolved" enough yet to be able to understand/find compassion for OW/OP. In other words, posts such as the Hailey fiasco will ALWAYS end up in a stalemate: each person (OP/BS) emphatically believing that their view is "right" and the other's is "wrong". The truth is-- both the OP and the BS are each right...and wrong! It's just gonna take each person a little bit longer on their own personal journey in order to see "clearly".AND, YES! THE ABOVE IS JUST MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ...and one which took me many, many months of personal reflection to arrive at.Peace on Earth...goodwill towards men! Love, ~Marie

Renee - yes for me to hold onto anger causes me more pain and heartache. When we give the anger to God He will heal. We are to overcome evil with good. If I hold onto bitterness and anger just hurts me, not the other person.Melody I agree that "He commands our repentence in order to receive forgiveness" from Him. An unrepentant heart hinders prayers and causes strife. What I am doing for my husband is the most powerful, life influencing thing that can be done.... I pray for him. What God can do in his life is so much more powerful than anything I could do or say. I have seen the evidence of that. God is in control. <blockquote>quote:<hr>the bottom line is that it's an act of compassion to motivate someone to REPENT <hr></blockquote> I disagree. It is not up to me to motivate anyone to repent, it is up to God and the Holy Spirit, that is their job. God knows best what will motivate someone, and when we try to do His work we get in His way. God has so impressed 1 Peter 3:1-2 on my heart: "Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the Word, they WITHOUT A WORD, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chase conduct accompanied by fear".In my situation What it all comes down to is this: it is not up to me to "make" my husband see what his behavior is doing to him. That is God's responsibility - I am not held accountable for my h's choices. It is between him and God. God knows my heart, he knows my husband's heart, he knows all our hearts. And what is in my heart is to be a kind, loving, forgiving wife, with a gentle and quiet spirit, praying continually. If things were to suddenly change I may be hurt but I am still confident in the love of God and know He will protect and guide me always. My role, as his wife, and as a born-again believer, is to respect my husband and submit to him, as unto the Lord, (Eph 5:22, Col 3:18) and love him. When I gave up trying to change his behavior and trying to do his role as head of our home, and started praying for him instead, the changes were dramatic. Where before my H said he hated me, wanted a divorce, ridiculed me and was never home, he is now home every night, expresses his great love for me, and thanks me for working on our marriage and being so good to him. The change in him was sudden, and can only be attributed to God's work in him. In the past my h would say ugly things to me in front of others, now he praises me in front of others, tells me in front of others how very much he loves me and tells them he would be brokenhearted without me. We have now been reconciled for over 2 years, and our marriage is far, far better than ever (btw we have been married almost 20 years). Even if my husband never quits drinking, I will still love him, respect him, and yes, submit to him, because I have faith that the Lord will provide and is always working in our lives. He is in control. We have been extremely blessed by the Lord, and I thank Him every day for the wonderful blessings he has given us. Each day I thank Him for the gift of my husband that He has given. To the world I may seem to be a fool, a doormat that has been walked all over, but in my heart I feel loved and cared for, by the Father, and my husband. God has given me peace and understanding about my husband's disease. God has shown me so much in the past two years, I'm so thankful for all He has done.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the bottom line is that it's an act of compassion to motivate someone to REPENT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree. It is not up to me to motivate anyone to repent, it is up to God and the Holy Spirit, that is their job. God knows best what will motivate someone, and when we try to do His work we get in His way. .<hr></blockquote>Regardless of the source of repentence it doesn't change the fact that you are not to forgive without repentence. You would be hindering God's will by rewarding the unrepentent. You are supposed to do the work and leave the *OUTCOME* to God. God isn't a cosmic maid who does all of our work for us. Because if you don't do the work, you actually HINDER his will, which is exactly what you do when you forgive the unrepentent. You are not doing them any favors by enabling them nor is it compassionate. It is simply wrongheaded and might make you "feel" good, but accomplishes nothing. This should not be about your feelings but what is best for the person who needs to repent.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by renee k:
And never any remorse - lucky I also had a good rep and no permenate harm was done - but that description hit home- your right - I'm not angry at her anymore - but I don't think I can forgive her until she admitts she did me wrong.
Good point and story to illustrate.<hr></blockquote>Renee,I think you made an excellent point here, that it is possible to forgo your bitterness and anger yet not forgive. One can be done without the other.

I just don't know... If forgiving the OW makes it possible to let go of your anger and get on with your life, then it worked for you. I am able to separate the anger and the forgiveness.Tell me, would you trust the OW around your H? Would you trust in ALL other ways? I bet not. I would not trust the OW’s in STL’s case around him because they all told me that they would not contact him if that was my wish. Then they all did behind my back. They have changed nothing. The last time I spoke to every one of them they told me that they wanted to continue their relationships with him. Now I trust STL, and in my book have forgiven him. I trust him because he knows they are all still interested but has chosen to not continue his relationships with them.I think we are all arguing semantics here. There is a fine line between harboring anger/forgiveness/trusting/forgetting. We seem to all be saying the same thing. We have let go of the anger, which in many senses is a form of forgiveness. It is my belief that a person is not forgiven until we can trust them. So where each of us draw the line any or may not be slightly different. It’s very hard to tell unless we all exchanged dozens of story and situations until we got all of the caveats down.Again a lot of this is up to personal interpretation.-----------
RE: In fact, they most likely did just the opposite: failed to even take us into consideration. People go to jail all the time for doing things in which they failed to even take the victim into consideration. That does not absolve them of a wrong act. In my book, a person who does not take the affected others into consideration is saying “screw them”. It is very intentional. If my kids ever use that as an excuse (and they have tried and learned to never use it again) their punishment is much much more sever. What I want to hear, and what I want them to realize, is some thing like “I knew I was hurting someone and at the time it did not matter to me. So I purposely hurt them.” That is taking responsibility and how we raise kids who think before they act.----------
RE: I don't believe that either of these women purposefully sought out to hurt their spouse and/or the spouse of the OP.Again, we can argue if they purposely set out to do it. But once they knew they were hurting someone else, and they continued, they have purposely hurt someone. Intent is everything. Purposeful actions equal intent.---------
RE: Hailey and her OP should be commended on recognizing that they are both hurting an "innocent" spouse. Commended? They are adults, they should be able to think before they act. Adults are not to be commended for realizing the consequences of their actions. It is expected. Again this is in my book.I also wonder about the use of “innocent” spouse. My assumption here is that you are saying that the spouse is not really innocent. How is the spouse not innocent? They may have not been meeting the WS’s needs, but that does not justify the affair. In terms of the affair, I believe it is appropriate to use the word innocent towards the BS. If we could not distinguish in that manner, then no one is ever innocent of anything because we have all sinned in some manner.---------
RE: They have taken the first step in admitting that what they are doing is wrong...now, they need to go the next step and "free" themselves from the pain they have created. They must find their "peace". OK, so here is another one of my way out there analogies to make a point. If a rapist finally recognizes that he is doing something wrong. Is it commendable that he recognizes it even while he is continuing to commit the act he is driven to do? I think not.RE: Likewise, a BS who finds "fault" with Hailey and/or OP in general, also needs more time for greater personal growth. IMHO, a BS who is hurt/angered by Hailey's words has not yet come "full circle" in understanding themselves. I do not buy into this at all. Another analogy… if I find fault with a rapist, does that mean that I need to do some more work to get in touch with my inner rapist so that I’ll “understand” the evil this person has done?What about myself do I have to understand to make me understand and accept adultery as ok. What is wrong about setting boundaries in our lives of what we find acceptable and not acceptable? Since when is it wrong to discuss points with someone we disagree with in attempt to get them to see our side of the issue? I don’t get this idea that being Christian means that we are supposed to forgive everything, no matter how terrible. That being Christian means that we are supposed to accept and let anyone behave in any manner until they come to some point of personal growth to change. And if they never get there it’s ok? What religion in this world purports that? None that I have ever studied. Well except “new age” which is not really a religion but a way of thinking that say do what ever you want.The fact that I do not accept adultery and choose to try to show people the harm in it, does not mean that I have not come to terms with things in my life. Just do not buy that.

Yes it is true that Hailey has not ‘evolved’ enough yet to understand her own shortcomings. None of us have totally evolved enough to understand all of our shortcomings. That does not excuse us when we hurt others. Just as I have no compassion for the crimes committed by a rapist. I have no compassion for the selfishness and hurt (in come societies and religions (like Christianity) it is also a crime) for an OW/OP. That does not mean that I do not have compassion for them as people. There is a huge difference in that. They are both acting outside of the acceptable bounds of human behavior. When I discuss the issues with OP’s and WS’s I am not discussing their worth as people. I am discussing the worth of their sins/crimes.RE: The truth is-- both the OP and the BS are each right...and wrong!Really? You believe that the OP is right? What about their affair do you feel is right? What about her argument that all BS are bitter, ugly, angry shrews who drove their spouses away do you feel is right? It may be right in her eyes. But it is not right in realm of reality. Did you note that when I turned those very same words around on her and suggested that that must have been why her ex-H had and affair and left her she became furious at me? She can dish it out to everyone else. It applied to every but HER. So you see, even she does not believe that her argument is right. As a matter of fact, if you read what she wrote she constantly changed what she was saying… she is confused and does not know what she means. Hailey feels she is right. I feel that I, and the other BS’s, WS’s and OP’s on this site, have some very valid points. It is very good for all of us, Hailey included, to bring these out and discuss them. I do thing it is wrong for people to have called her a whore and other names. Name calling always makes a conversation break down. It was also not helpful for her to start lashing out at everyone. What I don’t understand Is why many of the OP’s tend to want to express their point of view but do not want to hear anything different. You have to realize that when discussing Hailey here, we are talking about a particular type of OP. There are many people here who have also been OP’s who are open to discussing all sides of the issue. BTDT, Orchid and I come to mind right now. And none of use makes excuses for what we did. The type of OP we are talking about are the ones who want to hold on to their point of view and who are justifying their actions. I won’t participate in that. Nor do I think it is somehow morally superior to give them platitudes and hold their hand.And again this is JMHO ...and one which took me many, many year of personal reflection to arrive at.

patient1,
GIVE ME A BREAK!! NO RESPECT HUH? The spouse is the one that has to deny temptation (hello, they are the one that made the vow and broke it). Sure the OP plays a part...
but the spouse is the one that can't say "NO" to "body parts" being waved in their face..
THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM AND YOUR PROBLEM BECAUSE YOU ARE MARRIED TO THEM (that's why it's called temptation). The spouse HURT the family, the SPOUSE ruined the home, etc. Yes it takes two to tango, but the SPOUSE could and should have said no...
END OF STORYIf you MUST blame or have no respect..
Put it where it belongs...
Mistakes are made..it could be sex, theft, murder, whatever, but they happen...[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: diamonda ]

aw...I disagree. It is not up to me to motivate anyone to repent, it is up to God and the Holy Spirit, that is their job. God knows best what will motivate someone, and when we try to do His work we get in His way.snl...And what if God decides,(in his infinite inscrutable wisdom) to use AW as the means of motivation? No offense aw, but at least as far as this thread goes (and positions therein) yours is untenable, it seens prideful, and it seems you select Scripture to prove your point, rather than trying to understand the "big" picture.[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

Diamonda,While you may think this is a waste of a thread, it has brought up many topics that people wish to discuss. So to others it has it’s points.RE: If you MUST blame or have no respect.. Put it where it belongs... Of course it is the WS who bears the responsibility for choosing to have the affair. They are the one that the BS needs to deal with. That is no news to anyone here. That is not what is being discussed here. The OP’s part in the affair is what is being discussed here.. .as well as the meaning of life, and anything else anyone wants to bring up. The OP enters the affair out of free will and therefore willingly participates in an act that hurts the BS and the family. They are therefore purposely and willingly hurting the BS and the family.So both the WS and the OP share blame for the affair. I have said a zillion times, and will continue to say, that since the BS is not in a relationship with the OP, the OP means nothing to them. Though the OP did purposely behave in a manner that caused them pain, they mean nothing to the BS and are therefore inconsequential to the marital recovery.That said… there are some people who have had the OP’s from hell. These OP’s have done terrible things directly to the BS’s. Now that is a different story. In those cases the OP’s carry a much larger burden of responsibility for the damage done.There seem to be some who think that the OP is totally without responsiblity for their own actions. Some have even called them victims? Victims of what? Is a theif, a rapist or a murderer a victim as their victim is? Or are they the 'victimizer'? Victimizer I say.RE: Mistakes are made.. it could be sex, theft, murder, whatever, but they happen...Affairs are no more ‘mistakes’ then sex, theft, or murder. They are all acts that are done purposefully. A mistake happens when hit the wrong key on the keyboard. An afair, sex, theft or murder happens when a person purposely enters into the act. (Actually sex does not quite fit into the group because a person can have sex, as in rape, without purposely doing it.) Yes all sorts of terrible things ‘happen’. That does not mean that we need to just accept them.[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]

ML, I guess at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you're interested here's some links to articles on bitterness and unforgiveness:http://www.vsn.cape.com/~dougshow/archive1/messages/15.html Here's an excerpt from this one:
<blockquote>quote:<hr>"Perhaps the highest example of forgiving Christians have to emulate, is the example of Jesus on the cross, saying "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." [Luke 23:34] Clearly, this forgiveness was NOT dependant on the prior repentance of those responsible for Jesus' crucifixion."<hr></blockquote>http://www.tenth.org/qbox/qb_081300.htm An article entitled "Must I forgive?"http://www.tests4.com/Documents/Bible_Studies/Bitterness.htm A bible study on bitterness and unforgiveness.http://www.ficm.org/questions/ques18.htm From Neil Anderson's Freedom in Christ page "we find that people who wait for another's repentance are locked in bitterness toward literally dozens of people"I pray the Lord blesses you and your family greatly,AW

If the BS would stick to where the problems lie (the MARRIAGE)...
this thread would not exist..The OP has no power that the BS does not give them

SNL, no, my only point in posting anything here was to encourage others who are hurting so much; I am very sorry if my posts came accross wrong, or hurtful to anyone. I wanted to share what God has done to restore our marriage; how He changed us both and healed the pain. Maybe I should have given more details about our situation, but I didn't want to say negative things about my husband, I'm not excusing what he did, it was very wrong; so was what the OW did. In the past when I was bitter towards him; things got worse between us. I am very thankful for all God has done for us. Again I apologize.[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Alcoholic's Wife ]

diamonda RE: If the BS would stick to where the problems lie (the MARRIAGE)... this thread would not exist.. The OP has no power that the BS does not give them You are absolutely right on this one. The OP is of no consequence to the BS and to the marital recovery.There are however some exceptions to this…
----If the OP is a close relative or friend of the BS… then dealing with their relationship is a separate issue.----If the OP is harassing the BS, the BS I spoke to my current H’s OW’en only to the point of getting the information I needed. I do not feel the need to forgive them, understand them, or any other touchy, feely stuff.
The reason this thread came up is that there are OP’s who come here all time wanting to explain why it is ok for them to have their relationship with the WS, why they are justified, that they are really good people and the BS’s are screws. The original point of this thread was to discuss dealing with those OP’s. Not necessarily those in our own lives. My ex-H’s OW’en were my some cases my ’friends’. In others they made themselves know at the hospital he was working at… they ruined some of my relationships with other people. One in particular kept doing the ’wrong number’ phone call thing and other little harassments. I choose to ignore their antics and cut them out of my life. Like you said, they have no power that I do not give them.Much of the rest of the discussion is about whether how much responsibility the OP has for their involvement. I do think that is a worthwhile discussion for us to have. If they were indeed victims, then it would be right for us to help them if we could. This thread is about other, not you, coming to terms with the topic. That is what this web site is about, people coming to terms and healing with the adultery in their lives. It is alright for people to do that work. So let them, without bashing them and their efforts. Your points are good ones. Many people on this web site have not had the years to deal with the infidelity in their lives as you and I have. Many just found out this week, or a few weeks ago. They are still learning form the process. Most BS’s eventually realize this. Thanks for bringing them up.[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]

So Diamonda, if someone came in and robbed your home. Took whatever they wanted (furniture, jewelry, paychecks, food, clothes, money, children, car, etc.) and left you with the bills, no security, no home, no family, no money, no insurance, etc. You took all precautions normally done by you and all your neighbors, yet you were singled out and the only one who this happened to in your neighborhood. So now is it your fault? The crook does not have to go to jail because it is your home, your things and your fault? In many cases of As that is what it feels like, one's family has been robbed of many things material, emotional, mental and moral. L.

Zorweb,
I understand what you are saying (some OW's wanting to come and explain). You are right, there really isn't anything to explain and nothing makes it right, no matter how someone tries to justify it (there is no justification that can make it OK).

Orchid,
No one is saying it is the BS's fault but an affair and being robbed are different in away (because the WS allowed it to happen)..
Now to compare it to a robbery, would be like the WS leaving the door open, being in cahoots with the thief and then splitting the money gotten from the fence who bought the goods...Big difference then just being robbed.

Interesting but I don't see this mostly as a threat about whether the OP feels remorseful and worthy of forgivenss but more so a threat about how each of us as people need to look at forgiveness for our own healing. I can not be responsible for ANYONE ELSE BUT ME. If you go beyond that you are being co-dependant. That doesn't mean that you can't be caring or stand your ground or absolve anyone of thier responsiblity it just means that when we stand before God in our final judgement - he's not gonna ask about the OP - he's gonna ask about me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:
ML, I guess at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you're interested here's some links to articles on bitterness and unforgiveness:AW<hr></blockquote>AW,Let's not confuse the issue here. As I said above, it is important that one NOT hang onto any bitterness and anger, but that is not the issue here. One can release anger and bitterness without forgiving. I think you can see the difference. And you can disagree all you want, but you are disagreeing with scripture plain and simple and don't have a leg to stand on. That is your prerogative but it has to be said that you are following *YOUR* will and not God's will because there is no misunderstanding scripture on this one: Luke 17 3-4 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."
I would also implore you to consider the damage that you are causing your unrepentent H if you are using this principle with him. As an alcoholic with 17 years of sobriety who has been around recovering/non-recovering alcoholics for years, I can tell you that you are causing your H HARM by offering him blanket forgiveness if he is not repentent. To do so is to give him enough rope to hang himself. Have you ever attented AlAnon meetings?

Diamonda,I did not say who the robber was. It may be assumed that it was a stranger but it could easily be an inside job. Nonetheless the house was robbed and the family was displaced. Same effect with the A. In the A's case it is an inside job 100% of the time. The BS may contribute to the robbery if they are careless and leave their valuables laying around. But even then the option to steal is in the hands of the robbers, whatever their connection maybe to the household. You see, I used that analogy with my H. I told him that he allowed the OW to enter our home (via phone and internet) and to rob us of our stability, security, time, money, love and family values, etc. L .

To Melody Lane - the alcoholics wife is doing what she feels is right in her situation. Who are you to judge? For the record, YOU are the one taking scripture out of context to suit your agenda here. Don't tear down a fellow believer. Doing that fuels the devil.No one is the same. you can't possibly know what is in the mind of her husband. Maybe you should ask God to examine YOUR heart and YOUR motives for your negative and judgemental remarks. Signed, a BH

Orchid,
The OP can't steal what was GIVEN to them by the WS...The WS is the one that did the stealing

[QUOTE]Originally posted by diamonda:
[QB]Orchid,
The OP can't steal what was GIVEN to them by the WS... (but they have helped to put asunder what God has joined together)...I still feel, when it comes to a BS..
The majority of anger, blame, and focus, should go to the WS and the marriage..It just seems a lot of BS's spend so much time being angry, staying angry and blaming, that nothing gets really accomplished in the marriage. We are ALL human (the only perfect man died more than 2000 years ago) and we commit SINS (not just adultery). As long as we realise that we have sinned, KNOW that we have done wrong, and ask for forgiveness from GOD...That's all anyone can ask for.

To ML - you are sounding judgemental and that's pretty crummy if that's how you are meaning for it to sound to AW. I know we can't ever "hear" the tone of voice or the little nuance here that would totally convey an opinion and we only have our minds and what we read. But your responses have sounded less than nice to her.
I think she knows what's she's talking about for her just as you know for yourself what you're talking about.
I apologize if that's not how you meant your responses to sound -

I think that it sounds like we are all working hard to come to some resolve with this issue in all of our lives in the best way we can to help us all move through our pain.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by I_believe:
To Melody Lane - the alcoholics wife is doing what she feels is right in her situation. Who are you to judge? For the record, YOU are the one taking scripture out of context to suit your agenda here. Don't tear down a fellow believer. Doing that fuels the devil.No one is the same. you can't possibly know what is in the mind of her husband. Maybe you should ask God to examine YOUR heart and YOUR motives for your negative and judgemental remarks. Signed, a BH<hr></blockquote>Is that your judgement? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Sorry, but interpreting scripture properly has nothing to do with judgmentalism, it has to do with correctly understanding the Word of God and using it correctly. That is a commandment. It is the work of the devil to MISQUOTE scripture, not to try and understand it. You haven't demonstrated where I have ever taken any scripture out of context so I can't comment to that. If you would care to discuss your interpretation or where you feel I have done that, I would be happy to discuss it. Further, it does not "tear down" a believer to discuss the correct meaning of a verse, but builds them up in thier understanding. And maybe the truth is negative sometimes, but it is always the best course and the Christian course.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by hailey:
To ML - you are sounding judgemental and that's pretty crummy if that's how you are meaning for it to sound to AW. I know we can't ever "hear" the tone of voice or the little nuance here that would totally convey an opinion and we only have our minds and what we read. But your responses have sounded less than nice to her.
I think she knows what's she's talking about for her just as you know for yourself what you're talking about.
I apologize if that's not how you meant your responses to sound -<hr></blockquote>Hailey, I sure appreciate your "non-judgmental" input here, but I have to admit that it's not really my goal to live up to your standards. Thanks though.

Interesting thread ... I have to pop in and put in my 2 cents too! I agree with MelodyLane and Zorweb. I just wanted to add something to their thoughts...It's my understanding (as a Catholic) that God's forgiveness is freely given if we ask for it and not before. It's my understanding from my Al-Anon sponsor that forgiveness should not be given unless asked for. Because to do otherwise is to judge the other person. If I forgive someone without their request then I am judging that the offender understood what he/she was doing, that their values match mine, and that I know their motivation.The reality is, no one can read truely the heart of another. So unless someone says to me: "I was wrong, please forgive me" I can not assume that I know what their understanding of right and wrong is, or what was their motivation.I think that many times forgiveness is confused with letting go of resentments. To let go of a resentment, I simply need to accept reality, let go of expectation, take responsibility for what is mine to do, and leave the rest to God.I agree with Melody that Alcoholic's Wife is enabling her H's disease, and her idea of forgiveness is very co-dependent. I would hope that she would seek support in Al-Anon.As for the my H's OW - she hasn't asked for my forgiveness. Why should I forgive her? She doesn't believe that she did anything wrong. Who am I to judge her?Does this mean I condone her actions? Not at all. Her actions were wrong, but I have no idea what her values are, or what her spiritual, emotional or mental state, attitudes or motivations are. My H on the other hand, has asked for forgiveness, and is taking steps to make sure that the wrongs he can right are righted, and making sure that this doesn't happen again. The remorse, repentance and desire to earn forgiveness are all there. At this point, I don't believe I have the right not to forgive him. So for today, while I am not there yet, I'm willing to become forgiving.

AW and others, I want to thank you for the interesting discussion and wish you all a Merry Christmas! I am headed off to West Texas in the morning and probably won't be online much for the next week [unless I can hijack my mother' computer, which will be hard!]. So, if you want to tell me something, please hold that thought until I get back. I wish you all a great Christmas!May God Bless,
Dana

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by MelodyLane:
AW and others, I want to thank you for the interesting discussion and wish you all a Merry Christmas! I am headed off to West Texas in the morning and probably won't be online much for the next week [unless I can hijack my mother' computer, which will be hard!]. So, if you want to tell me something, please hold that thought until I get back. I wish you all a great Christmas!May God Bless,
Dana<hr></blockquote>Merry Christmas, Dana. God bless you too, honey.Love,
Jo

Is not the forgiveness up to the forgiver? The "religious" tone of this thread outweighs human emotion and feelings. I have seen it stated that forgiveness is up to God and is supposed to be given freely...ultimately it is up to the forgiver to determine when they feel safe and free to forgive...for some it is a much longer journey to that point. There is no "rule book" to determine when, how, or even if that forgiveness is given. What do you say to one that is not "religious" in whatever definition you use? Do they then lose the right to forgive or be forgiven because they do not quote or believe in the scriptures? We seem to forget, in MB, that not all human frailty can be explained away as part of the religious experiences. I grapple often in here when everyone talks about turning to God....what if God has set you on this, or any other journey, in order to make you stronger...what if you have turned to him at a time when he has put you in a sailboat to see if you can weather the storm? Whether or not you believe, whether or not you forgive, whether or not you grow.....is it not still up to the individual? What if God has put you in this situation to see your reaction...and your reaction is to let God "fix" it....have you then failed the test? Has your WS failed God's test? Did not God make your WS do what they did? If you can turn your life over to God to fix.....did not God answer some WS quest by giving them an OP? If God is a comfort.....why has he/she seen fit to wrought this path on your life? As I see the religious tones sometimes.....these questions hit me like a 2X4....I am not saying that our beliefs are wrong, that religion is not important, that anyone here is a zealot...but....these just lead to more questions. Is not a WS here just as prone to Gods test as a BS? If in fact, our lives are left up to God, why has he chosen to "hurt" so many? I have a hard time explaining away things like forgiveness as something God wants, when God allows us to have the very thing we need forgiveness for? Are the BSs the only one on the right side of God here, the only ones protected, the ones that are in the right...or does God treat both equally...and if not, why?OK...even this is gettin too deep for me...I need a glass of OJ...LOL!! Too much holiday wrapping going on here!!! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] I am gonna quit whilst I am ahead!!*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*Trueheart

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Did not God make your WS do what they did? <hr></blockquote>Absolutely not, trueheart. God would not set someone up to break one of His own commandments. God gives us the freedom to choose to follow His guidance or not. It's called free will. People choose their own actions. They are not puppets of a manipulative diety. When bad things happen, it's not God's will. It's the consequences of the freedom we have to do right or to do wrong.
When bad things befall us, however, God is there to provide the strength to convert something bad into something better.IMVHO,
Estes[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
Absolutely not, snl.<hr></blockquote>Hi Estes,Did you know that was "TrueHeart"? not SnL? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks, Jo,I saw that as I was proofing the post and fixed it ASAP. You're quick tonight. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Sorry, guys. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Estes[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]

trueheart, <blockquote>quote:<hr>If in fact, our lives are left up to God, why has he chosen to "hurt" so many? <hr></blockquote>If this is your understanding of God, I can see why you would shy away from religion. Thankfully, this isn't how God operates. The cause of trouble in human relationships are us, not Him. God faithfully hangs in there to rescue us from ourselves.Respectfully,
Estes

Diamonda & Orchid,In the robbery analogy, which is a very good one for adultery, the OP is the accomplice of the WS. Therefore, both the WS and OP are guilty. However the BS is (or in my mind, should be) more concerned about the WS. The OP has promised them nothing. The WS entered into a marriage contract with them.As for the WS giving ‘things’ to the OP. By contract and by law the WS has agreed to forsake all others. So they have broken a legal and moral contract. Their affects do not belong to them alone. As for the any tangible assets, they belong 50% to the BS. So if the WS uses any marital assets to conduct the affair (by spending on dates, buying gifts, paying OP’s debts, etc.) the WS is stealing marital assets and the OP is a co-conspirator in this act. A BS can actually sue the OP and the WS to have their portion of the assets returned to them. They can also sue the OP for alienation of affection… as per the contract signed at the time of the marriage.The first time I filed, 1993, for divorce from my ex-H the first time, he was going on and on to the judge about how he loved me, did not know why I’d filed, and oh, Katherine? (The OP of the day), she was nothing to him. The judge got angry, slammed down a law book and said “When are people going to get it through their heads that marriage has nothing to do with love.”I’ve thought about that statement for years. At first it sounded like the strangest thing for a family court judge to say. But now I understand. Marriage is a legal CONTRACT. A person can love with out marriage. But a person cannot marry without the contract. How many people actually read the contract they are signing when they get married? Most people do not even know they are signing a contract. They think it’s some fluffy thing or a vow that is said in a church. It is much more. Every state has a contract. It differs from state to state. This judge had my curiosity peaked so I eventually took a course in marriage law in NM. I read the contract. No where in the contract does it say that anyone has to love anyone. What is says is how assets are shared, how children fit into the picture, what each spouses rights are in the marital, family and larger community. It also has something in it about infidelity… when a person gets married they sign a legal contract saying that they forsake all others. That contract does not say that they forsake all others unless they get hot and bothered, or they are no longer ‘in-love’, or they get a proposition from some hot babe. The contract does not say that all assets belong to the marital community unless you find some sweetie to give them to.Marriage is a legal PARTNERSHIP between a couple in the same sense that a business partnership is formed between people. What happens when a business partner breaks their contract and rips the other off? What happens when someone who is not a partner, helps a partner rip off the partnership? They can be charged with embezzlement.I wish that the laws would go back to supporting the marital contract on that same basis. You see, if you want to dissolve a business partnership you better go about it the right way or there could be legal ramifications. The same is true about a marital contract. The idea that marriage is solely about love is very new and unique to the Western European and north American societies. Marriage is about furthering family security and safety.The reason that old law, and laws in many countries today, still punish adultery with murder is because of the harsh social problems caused by adultery. If a man leaves his wife and children for another woman, they very well might die or at least live in total abject poverty. If a woman has an affair, she puts the entire family unit at risk. If the family units are a risk, the village falls apart, etc., etc. We live in such incredible wealth in this country that most Americans do no realize how fragile life is in most of the world. Now the description of marriage I just spoke of is the legal description of it. I prefer the version were husband and wife are also in love. But the legal contact is the foundation. If a person does not want all of the legal gobbledy goop to be in the way, then just don’t get married. Live together keep assets separate, or draw up a contract of your own, and love happily. But the home grown contract will not be recognized as a marriage by the courts. It will be a partnership contract. For some people this works very well. But if the couple gets married the contract is a reality.When I filed for divorce again in 1996, I had a pile of checks and receipts related to my H’s spending during his affairs. I was compensated for my portion of those receipts. They were community assets, 50% mine (heck I was the bread winner for years so they really were 100% mine.) If I could have proven any complicity by the OP’s in larger amounts of money I’d have sued them too. My H also transferred money from my income into accounts in his mother’s name. I got that back too… had to act like I was going to make mommy dearest have to fork over part of her house (the house my H made payments on out of our assets for years …. Another way to move money out of the marital community.) I would have never hurt her…. .she is an evil, mean woman. But I would never have taken her house away from her. Just made my ex think I was mean enough to do it. There was more money that he’d moved to accounts I could not complete the trail to. It just disappeared into thin air. But a person has to stop digging and fighting at some point.

diamondagive you a break? absolutely not. I have no respect for people that get involvled with people that are married and continue on with the A.I did get anry with my H and blamed him.
I also told ow personally, that my H was married and living with me. Did she put a stop to the A? Nope. Was she concerned about me? Nope. Did she have concern for my children? Nope.I have absolutely no desire to forgive OW. She means nothing to me. She lost. I have my H back and we are extremely happy. I spend very little time thinking about her. It wasn't always that way. But I did convince myself, that I was better than this female. I'm a lady with much class and I respect for myself. This makes me feel real proud and I hold my head very high.I make no apologies to any OW. I can live with myself, my choices and my behaviour.Damn......if I loved myself anymore, I'd be twins.
I have the best husband in the world. I forgive him, respect him and love him more than yesterday. We are happy and very much in love. What more could I possibly want?

Trueheart,There is an awful lot of holiday wrapping going on here too. I was exiled to the master bedroom and ordered to take a bath by my daughter(12). She’s a real slave driver.. Has STL down there wrapping things they will not let me see. Like the OJ (or what ever) idea.This is yet another long one… think I’m just having fun pontificating here…..Now on the philosophical argument. This thread feels like a dinner discussion that my family would have had when I was a kid. I’m loving it….. I’ve been using the religious arguments here because that is what many people on this site seem to go to. And, if we drop the ‘shalls’ and ‘thous’ and such. The argument is very much what one would argue on a legal and/or humanistic basis. The thing about religion is that today, in the USA, we separate it from law and government. In past human history, religion was the government and set the laws. In most Muslim countries, even today, the state laws are based on their religion. The religious leaders decide much of the law. Just as our legal system uses points of law, the constitution, etc to establish the basis for all law, they use the religious writing as their basis.Basically, the Christian point of view on forgiveness is that there is divine forgiveness if a person asks for it. It is given freely and unconditionally if asked for and person repents. Like you say, for humans it’s not so easy. The Bible has guidelines on what we should strive for… not was we MUST do. Doesn’t this make sense even from a secular point of view? Good religion always does.Much of what is written in the Bible is a basically sound framework for human society. That is why they are in the religious books to begin with. For example… you are right, people are going to forgive on their own timetable. But we know for a fact that it is healthier for a person to give up the anger as soon as possible because anger eats away at a person. It is not healthy.Another problem with trying to base things solely on the bible is that a person can find justification for just about any argument in the bible. The same is true with the Koran. Look how the Taliban and bin Laden have been able to justify their brand of Islam. To properly interpret the Bible, and any other religious writings, a person needs to have a very strong background in ancient laws, society, as well as all the other religious books. That is why people get PhD’s in theology. So any discussion we have here on scripture is merely academic unless one or more of us are a theologian. I can pontificate all I want to here.. But it’s just my opinion… that and a few bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. While many MB’ers are ‘Christian’ many are not. So an argument of adultery based on Christian beliefs may or may not fit for all MB’ers. What I try to do is to take any religious argument and look at it from the secular view, how does it fit. The reason I put Christian in quotes is because even Christians cannot agree on many issues. Many ‘Christians’ cannot even agree on who is Christian. I’ve been told that I am not Christian because I am Catholic. I’ve seen books sold in ‘Christian’ book stores that discuss why Catholics are not Christian. There are those who will argue that the Melkite Catholics are not ‘Christian’. Yet the Roman Catholic church was founded by the Apostle Paul. The Apostle Peter founded the Antiochen Church in Antioch.. These were two of the original 12 Christian churches. The Melkite is a splinter church off of the Antiochen Church. So if we cannot even agree who is included in the ‘Christian’ faith, how on earth can we even really agree on the interpretation of the Bible?RE: what if God has set you on this, or any other journey, in order to make you stronger...what if you have turned to him at a time when he has put you in a sailboat to see if you can weather the storm? This is not who God works by any interpretation. He sets the rules by which things work. After that we all have free will. Anything we do here on earth is by our own choice. I know that people always talk about the idea that God is testing them. But in reality our lives are very much what we create. Sure there are things like war and natural disasters that are bigger then us, out of our control. But those things just happen. They are part of the natural order of things. We choose to react to all of lives trials using our own free will. That’s it. God does not set people up for tests. Life is, as it unfolds based on our free choices is test enough. No God did not answer some WS’s quest by giving them an OP. A person chooses their own quest and finds someone to help them meet that quest. Where we are and who we are today is of our own making. We are exactly where we put ourselves.Be careful about looking at anyone as a zealot. A discussion is a discussion. Any number of things can be used as basis for discussion. A person who uses the Bible in a discussion may not the a Bible thumper. And a person who uses humanistic arguments may not be a humanist at all. I may be a Catholic, but I believe that it is my duty to question everything. My father and mother taught me this. The most educated and knowledgeable priest I ever met told me the same thing. He pointed out that all of the people who have been sainted by the Catholic church are those who questioned the faith and arrived at their own conclusions. He also said that when we arrive at the pearly gates, we are not going to be asked if we followed what a priest or minister told us to do. We are going to be asked if we looked into our hearts and did the right things. If a religious leader misleads us, we are responsible for that. It is a sin to blindly follow.

Again God does not choose to hurt so many. Other people and the natural order of things can cause hurt. God does not make anyone have affairs. God does not make earthquakes happen. The laws of nature make earthquakes happen.RE: I have a hard time explaining away things like forgiveness as something God wants, when God allows us to have the very thing we need forgiveness for? Again, God gives free will. We act independent of God. If He controlled our every move, then sin would not be sin. It would be Him moving us like chess pieces. RE: Are the BSs the only one on the right side of God here, the only ones protected, the ones that are in the right...or does God treat both equally...and if not, why? In a religious argument the WS is on the wrong side of God in reference to the affair. The BS is on the right side of God in that they are not having an affair.But the BS could be committing plenty of other sins in other areas. And for those sins, they are on the wrong side.
I do not think that either the BS or the WS or the OP are more protected by God. We are all children of God and therefore protected equally and pay for our sins equally and receive forgiveness equally.But see now you have me sounding like a religious zealot because I’m answering your questions.. Form my point of view.. .I am not a theologian. Lol… wonder if anyone read this entire thing….

zorweb....Again God does not choose to hurt so many. snl....?????????? And all that smiting and destruction of peple and whole races in the Bible was just an accident?z...Other people and the natural order of things can cause hurt. God does not make anyone have affairs. God does not make earthquakes happen.snl...Sure He does. He makes all sorts of natural disasters occur, what do you think happened to sodom and gomorrah? As for affairs, I agree God does not dictate personal choices, but affair is a label, and arises out of the nature of bonding. If we did not have "affairs" we would not have marriage either (or at least we would not be human beings)...God also does not "make" us marry someone we do not fit, or someone who is not capable of marital committment (or ourselves marry when we are not capable of marital committment), but it happens all the time.z...The laws of nature make earthquakes happen.snl..I agree, we do live in a "natural" world, constructed according to God's plan, so it is a matter of semantics whether we call that God's plan or not. But I do think God "can" and does manipulate the laws of nature for specific purposes when He chooses to do so. th..RE: I have a hard time explaining away things like forgiveness as something God wants, when God allows us to have the very thing we need forgiveness for? Z...Again, God gives free will. We act independent of God. If He controlled our every move, then sin would not be sin. It would be Him moving us like chess pieces.snl...Yeah, if we are "determined" then what is the point? Yet God knows all so where is freewill? It is part of the mystery, and possibly unknowable by our finite minds. I kinda liken it to an ongoing process, our choices (all of us in toto) determine the future, and changes constantly, but somehow God is "updated" simultaneously. I do agree God does not make us do anything (and neither does satan), that somehow freewill cannot be abridged. But we can be influenced in a myriad of ways, and fall under the "spell" of stuff, but it is still a choice.RE: Are the BSs the only one on the right side of God here, the only ones protected, the ones that are in the right...or does God treat both equally...and if not, why? z...In a religious argument the WS is on the wrong side of God in reference to the affair. The BS is on the right side of God in that they are not having an affair.snl...That is not true at all. Nor can you prove it. You make assumptions, and the first is that if you have a marriage license you are married. You have a legal contract, and that is being violated, but it is not clear at all whether you have a spiritual contract, and IMO many times you do not. However if you try to have an affair, and a marriage, you are clearly violating something, and must choose. But choosing the marriage may in fact be the wrong spiritual choice, depends on what is truly in your heart. It is here that God helps, one needs to turn to Him for help in discernment, and the courage to act. One cannot extrapolate from secular marital law to spiritual truths, doesn't work. If it did then theocracies would be the govt of choice, and they clearly are not.z...But the BS could be committing plenty of other sins in other areas. And for those sins, they are on the wrong side.snl...Yes, and that seems to get lost, and since all sins are the same, why do we "elevate" marital "sins"....is the ws any more at "fault" then the bs who abandoned them long ago? (when that is the dynamic, which it may not be of course). In any event, the goal should be to reduce sin in our lives, and IMO one of the goals of understanding marital disharmony is to get all parties away from sinful behaviour..... that can and does mean ending a sinful marriage as well as a sinful affair. The Bible also addresses these issues, I really do not see how anyone can think Scripture blindly sanctions marriage just cause it exists secularly. It has to meet stringent spiritual standards, or it is cohabitation, and there is noting to rend asunder, cause you are not married in the first place. z....I do not think that either the BS or the WS or the OP are more protected by God. We are all children of God and therefore protected equally and pay for our sins equally and receive forgiveness equally.snl...Absolutelyz...Lol… wonder if anyone read this entire thing….snl...I am [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I really enjoy this kind of stuff as a um.... activity....but even more importantly I think it is God's plan that we do this kind of thing, to avoid becoming legalistic, or cult like, or following "men" etc.

SNL,As I said earlier, I enjoy this type of conversation too. In my book it is very important mental exercising. And yet it is not purely an exercise. It helps jell one's opinions and beliefs.snl....?????????? And all that smiting and destruction of peple and whole races in the Bible was just an accident? Z…. Yep, proves one of the points I made earlier. We can prove any point using the Bible. There are those parts of the Bible too are there not. There are many people who would argue the following with me.. IMHO, the Bible is a large part history told is a way that we no longer understand… sort of fantastic stories where people get turned to pillars of salt. I do not know if I believe some of that stuff at face value.snl...Sure He does. He makes all sorts of natural disasters occur, what do you think happened to sodom and gomorrah? Though I do believe that once in a while He does do something on purpose.. Like the flood, most natural disasters are not caused by God saying I’m going to punish so-and-so or this entire city. They are acts of nature. Another thing about the pain and suffering on earth… it seems that that is part of the human condition. There is nothing in religion that says we are supposed to be spared suffering. Indeed a large part of life is dealing with random events that cause suffering (like the 9/11 attacks). There are an argument used by atheists that all religion is, is an opiate used by people to help them cope with this suffering. Though it may be a component, spirituality is such a basic part of the human psyche that it has to be taken seriously.. IMHO.______
Well, I need to get for right now. There is more I want to address here but I don’t have the time right now. We are making the 8 hour round trip drive today to visit our son in the residential treatment center…. It’s our Christmas visit with him. Really miss the little guy (if 14 can be called little). Perhaps I’ll be able to get some online time late tonight or tomorrow… but that being xmas eve and all the prep for xmas and family coming over… HELP the holiday is suddenly upon me and I’m not totally ready. Is anyone?Merry Xmas SNL and ALL.[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]

Dear Zorweb:I read your questions/replies to me late last night. Your opinions/questions are interesting to me. I didn't feel that I should respond too quickly to your questions, so I took the opportunity to "sleep on it."First, I would like to say that I am able to see/UNDERSTAND your point of view. I ACCEPT your beliefs. I am not trying to CONVERT or sway anyone to CHANGE their beliefs to my beliefs.I posted my beliefs only for the sole purpose of showing another POV...of opening the "box". Moreover, I am a bit curious as to why you found it necessary to use my opening line (I just don't know... ), as well as an almost word for word copy of my ending line (AND, YES! THE ABOVE IS JMHO ...and one which took me many, many months of personal reflection to arrive at.) in your own post? I can speculate as to why you would choose to do this, but would rather hear your reasoning...if you are so inclined to share.As for your questions-- <blockquote>quote:<hr> If forgiving the OW makes it possible to let go of your anger and get on with your life, then it worked for you. I am able to separate the anger and the forgiveness.Tell me, would you trust the OW around your H? Would you trust in ALL other ways? I bet not.
<hr></blockquote>I was able to separate the anger from the forgiveness. I resolved the anger approximately one year ago. It took me well over two years to forgive.I can't answer your question regarding trusting the OW around my H because I do not know the OW personally. I do not know how much she has reflected on her own actions and the consequences of those actions. I do not know if she sees herself as justified in what she did, or if she has recognized that she has sinned and sought mercy from God.However, I do seek to give her the benefit of the doubt. I do seek to find compassion for her. I like to believe that she is capable of personal growth and reflection, and that she is capable of recognizing the evil/sin that she has committed. I pray that she is capable of forgiving herself, that she is capable of forgiving my H, and that she is capable of reconciliation and penance for her sins.I don't think that this means that I am condoning what she did or excusing her behavior in any way. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Ohmy_Marie said: In fact, they most likely did just the opposite: failed to even take us into consideration. Zorweb replied: ...That does not absolve them of a wrong act. In my book, a person who does not take the affected others into consideration is saying “screw them”. It is very intentional... What I want to hear, and what I want them to realize, is some thing like “I knew I was hurting someone and at the time it did not matter to me. So I purposely hurt them.” That is taking responsibility and how we raise kids who think before they act. <hr></blockquote>I did NOT mean to imply that someone who fails to take the "victim" into consideration absolves them of their sin. Their ignorance is definitely NOT an excuse. However, realizing that OW did not intentionally set out to HURT/DESTROY me, allows me to release myself from being the "victim"...it allows me to find compassion for her. If we assume that the OW did think of us ("screw MM's wife") and then proceeded to commit the evil act of adultery, then I agree that it becomes MUCH HARDER to offer forgivness to this individual. And, if I viewed the OW (in our situation) in this light, perhaps I would be able to forgive her ignorance, but not the act of adultery-- until she was able to come to me with knowledge that she had acted in sin and asked for my forgiveness.However, again, it is very possible that OW has cleansed her soul thru confession (or some other religious ceremony) and has made peace with God. I like to think that this is possible...again, I like to give the benefit of the doubt.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Ohmy_marie-- Hailey and her OP should be commended on recognizing that they are both hurting an "innocent" spouse. Zorweb replied: Commended? They are adults, they should be able to think before they act. Adults are not to be commended for realizing the consequences of their actions. It is expected. Again this is in my book. <hr></blockquote>I agree...adults should be able to think before they act. However, obviously this doesn't happen in all situations. In fact, failing to think thru the consequences of their actions is THE FIRST MISTAKE IN THEIR DOWNWARD SPIRAL.However, I do think that people who have the ability to recognize their errors should be commended for recognizing that they are "in the wrong." IMO, this is the first step in "coming clean". Whether the individual takes the NEXT STEP in stopping the evil act, asking GOD for forgiveness (thru reconciliation/penance) depends on how open and honest an individual is with themselves...and/or whether they have the ability to even care about how they are affecting themselves/others. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Zorweb asks: if I find fault with a rapist, does that mean that I need to do some more work to get in touch with my inner rapist so that I’ll “understand” the evil this person has done? <hr></blockquote>No, that is NOT what I am meaning to imply. Furthermore, I do not think there is such a thing as an "inner rapist" in each person (???).I'm offering that it IS POSSIBLE to find compassion for evil doers. Again, this does not mean that you condone their sins.BTW, there is a Catholic website that speaks of ERRONEOUS JUDGEMENT http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm#I (here is an example from the site):IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT 1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed. 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits. 
...I guess, I am able to find compassion by realizing that not everyone believes as I do-- that ignorance of Christ/God and morals/conscience does exist. Again, I'm not condoning the behavior (as stated above, IGNORANCE makes it no less of a sin!) it just HELPS me UNDERSTAND WHY THINGS HAPPEN...and it helps me resolve my own personal confusion and bitterness/anger over the situation. <blockquote>quote:<hr>OMM: The truth is-- both the OP and the BS are each right...and wrong!Zorweb: Really? You believe that the OP is right? What about their affair do you feel is right? What about her argument that all BS are bitter, ugly, angry shrews who drove their spouses away do you feel is right?
<hr></blockquote>Personally, I don't think anything about the affair is RIGHT. I believe adultery is a MORTAL sin.However, I choose to believe when an OW says that she did not mean to hurt the MM's wife that she IS telling the truth...her truth. I don't think it helps matters to tell the OW how wrong she was (I think this is where the BSs make their "mistake"). I'm NOT saying that BSs don't have the right to attempt to educate the OP or that they SHOULDN'T or CAN'T--as many did try--just that I think it is a total waste of precious time...a mistake. OW will have to come to this conclusion on her own thru personal growth...if, or when, she has the desire to even examine this part of her self.Of couse, I BELIEVE that BSs are right in their belief that: OW ARE WRONG in not going the extra step and thinking of the consequences of their actions-- for had OW done this, she most likely would have to admit that she would be causing pain to the MM's wife. And, even then, had OW taken this extra step (examing her conscience) it may or may not have had an impact on her decision to proceed with the affair...depends on the person.As far as what Hailey believes about ALL BSs (all BS are bitter, ugly, angry shrews who drove their spouses away) -- I believe that she is basing her opinion on what she has personally observed/encountered in her "small world"...she has not yet taken the time, and/or opened herself up to "seeing" or exploring what else exists in the real world. Therefore, TO HER, her opinion is currently "right" ...simply because she believes it to be....because this is all her life has taught her (or all that she has chosen to recognize). --To me, this just points to ignorance...but there really is nothing I can do to change her mind until she chooses to "open her eyes/heart" and search for truth. <blockquote>quote:<hr> What I don’t understand Is why many of the OP’s tend to want to express their point of view but do not want to hear anything different.
<hr></blockquote>Personally, I think they are looking for VALIDATION.I think they desire for us to understand what leads them into having an affair...whether it be unmet needs, abuse, lack of self-esteem, lack of strength, etc. etc. etc.I DO NOT think they are looking for us to CONDONE their mistakes, but rather for compassion (as I have already spoken of).I CAN understand why a woman would choose to pursue a married man. I CAN understand her confusion and reluctance to give up a MM who worships her and treats her as if she walks on water. I CAN understand her pain in trying to see the WRONG in something that feels RIGHT. I can understand why she would choose to believe that her actions are OK based on what MM has told her about his wife. BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, I DO NOT THINK MY UNDERSTANDING/COMPASSION MEANS THAT I AM ACCEPTING OF HER SINS. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Zorweb said: Nor do I think it is somehow morally superior to give them platitudes and hold their hand.
<hr></blockquote>Again, I do not CONDONE their behavior...not do I attempt to hold their hand.I believe that in order to experience life after death in the Kingdom of God that sinners must reconcile/repent their sins.However, I still attempt to find compassion within my heart for those who have sinned.Again, the point of my post was not to ask for others to be accepting of my POV...but rather to simply offer up a different POV for discussion.My personal beliefs are right for me...just as your's are right for you.Peace, ~Marie[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]

I have been reading with great interest this thread - especially the forgiveness issue. I do believe wholeheartedly that forgiveness should be given when a person repents and asks for it. To just give out forgiveness willy-nilly cheapens the gift that it is. That said I also believe that just because someone has not repented does not mean you harbor bitterness towards that person - it only hurts yourself.I do have to tell you that I am a WW who has repented and been forgiven by the most wonderful H in the world. His forgiveness would have meant nothing if I had not been willing and wanting to turn from all I was doing wrong. My H sees my broken heart and holds me when I cry. He knows that is also responsible for the state our M was in that left our M vulnerable to all kinds of harmful things.I am also a Christian who has really acquired a thrist to know God more - not just go through the motions like most of my life. There is a major issue I am struggling with - guilt - guilt over what I have done to the OM's W. I so desperately want to apologize and ask her forgiveness but I don't know if or how I should. The last I knew which was in April she was denying the A ever took place. Her H has her snowballed. I sincerely want to ask forgiveness but will she see it as something else? Can anyone help me to know what to do? Any BS's have any opinions on this issue?kz

ohmy_marie Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I do not have time right now to reply in a manner that gives your post the justice it deserves… We are leaving shortly to visit our son in the RTC, it’s a very long drive for one day to get to see him for only 2 hours. I will reply when I get back. Just wanted you to know that I am not ignoring you.I hope that you do not feel attacked by my post to you. I found yours very interesting. I actually think that you and I are saying very much the same thing but we have very different ways of getting there and expressing it. Thought it may not seem like it, my intent was to explore what I think are the similarities in our arguments. Sure there are some differences, there always will be. As I stated, I think that much of what all of us are debating is a difference in semantics not of substance. I am really struggling with the differences and similarities of our arguments and trying to work them out. To truly judge a person, one must know their intent. Surely we don’t know that… a point you have made. Any argument I’ve made about intent is an assumption on my part. I’ll give your post more attention later. Just want you to know that I greatly respect you and you opinion and had no intention what so ever of anything else. I too am not trying to CONVERT. Am I trying to sway? Not really. I am trying to understand both my point of view and those of others. I do have to admit that what you and others have said have me thinking, really thinking. Who knows, out of all of this my opinions may change, perhaps mature a little. One can only hope. If I come off too strong or a little gruff... well my resemblance to Candice Bergen (and her character of Murphy Brown) is not just skin deep. I know that I can put people off sometimes when I think I’m just being sweet little ole’ me. As I’ve gotten older that part of me has gotten stronger… sometimes the sweet, air-head, demure little girl that I used to be gets lost. Though my family assures me and still ‘legally blond’. My son asked me the other day if I’d loose my blondness if I shaved my head… and the other kids were rolling of the floor laughing. Thanks so much for poking back at me…. It makes me think and that can only be good.

Wow Z...you are getting long winded in your "old age"...oopps...experienced life....hehe!!I did not mean to offend anyone with my "religious" queries, nor do I espouse to know everything about scriptures. I do not "shy away from religion" based on a twisted view of God or the way in which he touches our lives. Although I do not categorize myself as "religious", I have a very spiritual side, dealing with the same types of issues and questions that anyone deals with. My only purpose in asking is to stir the thought processes, and gain more insight into our thinking capacities. Thanks for your replies...I really do appreciate them!!!One last thing for all of you....a sort of Christmas gift to you all from me....if you have heard the new 9/11 version of Silent Night, then you know what a powerful rendition it is...a sort of narrative in the eyes of God. Let us not forget those this holiday season that are struggling with the greatest losses they have ever faced. If you have not heard it...here is a link that you can hear it/download it..www.kiimfm.comMerry Christmas...from my home to yours!Trueheart

omm...My personal beliefs are right for me...just as yours are right for you. (said to zorweb)snl...I must differ marie on this point, there is only 1 truth, and whoever gets it wrong is not going to be happy with the consequences (so is not right unless they are masochistically inclined). These kinds of debates are life and death matters for us all, anyone who thinks otherwise is suffering severe ostrichitis. I do not think we should wreak violence on each other to bring about enlightenment, nor do I think we should persecute (as in deprive folks of security, and the economic means to take care of themself) folks.... but I have no problem with a Christian based government (not a theocracy however), nor do I have a problem with telling someone their position is wrong, and is not ok. Not for my own satisfaction.... BUT to be my brothers keeper I must lean on them fairly hard (and they I). Telling someone ok, we are both right (for us) is the worst possible kind of political correctness and condones wrongmindedness with horrific outcomes for whoever is wrong. I guess I subscribe more to making it clear I think someone is misguided (and more importantly, why) but that I will not shoot you over it.....sort of an agree to disagree thing.As to the ongoing debate over forgiveness, I think their is some disagreement that is semantics rather than substance. IMO forgiveness has little to do with the other party, and everything to do with us. It is a hard heart issue. We are instructed to love our neighbor as ourself, be out brothers keeper, and lots of other stuff that IMO make it pretty clear, harboring resentment (essentially not-forgiving) is decidedly unhealthy for our spiritual welfare.However, we are allowed, indeed expected to keep ourselves safe, physically, spiritually etc. The hate the sin love the sinner stuff. In an extreme that would allow us to kill someone we recognized as a threat to us (could be op), but we must do so without any sense of vengeance or judgement or satisfaction...... kind of an extreme case of tough love. The truths of these issues lie in our heart, and cannot be hidden from God. For example, there is a business man I dealt with a few years ago who cheated me, then attacked me (using the legal system), lieing and attempting to extort money from me. I would not be swayed, despite possibly my best interest to settle, and gave it up to God, as it turned out he was unable to prevail. However he clearly is a very dangerous man, in fact he is a sociopath. This excperience and a few others have provided me with the opportunity to review how I feel about this kind of stuff (God moves in mysterious ways, so who knows).....and I reached the following conclusion. If in some reasonable way, I could act in a manner that was helpful to this man, I would do so.... but I would of course protect myself. Say he showed up on my doorstep, broke and in need of some immediate assistance, I would probably help him. Say I came into knowledge that would be helpful to him to know, but hurt him if he did not.... I would tell him....The point is, I would be living by my principles (which are hopefully God's principles) not instead reacting to my "feelings" about him. This same standard can be applied to all manner of circumstances, feuding neighbors, back-stabbing fellow employees, people who mistreat us in relationships, people who ummmmm trash us on-line [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ..... people who cheat us (money), all manner of circumstances. That does not mean we cannot protect ourselves, and the most basic protection is to not associate with "bad" people, this is not a judgement, it is an asessment we are expected to make. If this involves friends, family, etc it sends a message as well, an important one, it does not mean they are not forgiven, it means we still love (as God directed us too) them, we just choose how we live our life. The difference is sometimes subtle, but it is very real, and it will be recognized and sensed by others. I have had remarkable experiences in applying this behaviour, and it does give one a lot of inner peace. I HATE being angry and vengeful (and yeah I go there sometimes) but I feel so much better when I let it go, it is truly poison. The people who really impress me vividly are the families of innocent murder victims. I am impressed both ways, oft times these are "apparently" decent, church going families, helpful, socially responsible etc. yet they ask for blood, they want vengeance, some say so outright, some call it justice, but their faces tell the truth. Others despite their loss and grief voice no words of vengance or ask for death. Instead they leave it up to God (and the state), and even make it clear they feel no vengeance for the senseless violence wreaked on them, and their hope is that God works in his/her life. The difference is stark, and my feelings just as polarized, those who want vengeance, I understand, but make me feel very sad, the others give me a feeling of hope.I do think we are tested, but agree not directly by God. Instead sort of by life. It chills me to the depths of my soul to think that satan could work through a weak person, enter ones life and kill someone close, the resultant grief leading them to renounce a God who would let such a thing happen, and turning away from He that heals. It is easy to "believe", "forgive", be caring, and noble, and all that good stuff, when life is not so hard, the bumps not so big...... but that is not where belief counts, it is when it is hard, very hard, that the rubber meets the road.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>snl...I must differ marie on this point, there is only 1 truth, and whoever gets it wrong is not going to be happy with the consequences..<hr></blockquote>Oh, SnL...you crack me up [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . You really do!Now, you do realize that Zorweb's and my own beliefs are very much in sync...right???? yes???? Aside of course from a few minor "tweaks"...which really don't distract from the "one truth" that we BOTH believe in. Or, do you really not "see" it?Peace, ~Marie[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]

All religious issues aside, forgiveness boils down to this:If the act that caused the emotional distress/turmoil no longer causes that condition, a person has forgiven the act, in that their emotional condition is restored to the state it was in prior to the act that caused the emotional distress/turmoil.This state is achievable without a person petitioning for the act of forgiveness; however, in actual practice, a primary trigger for the resolution of the emotional conflict is a show of remorse and repentence.In restoring the previously existing state, if you didn't like a person prior to the act that caused the emotional turmoil/distress, then "liking" that person is not a condition of "forgiveness". The act of forgiveness means that you have emotionally resolved the action and it no longer causes you distress, and that the previous standing of that person is restored.If the act still triggers an emotional state, then you have not fully resolved it and, in fact, have not fully forgiven.Absolution, on the other hand, is a complete wiping of the slate, no matter what emotional issues may still remain. Absolution, in real practice, is not achievable by human beings; being a condition of reinstatement of grace with the Divine Being (God).I note herein many religious connotations and interpretations, most of which are theologically unsound in Christianity: much ado about "my interpretation of Christianity is better than yours."So, insofar as Christianity goes: unless you are directly relating the precepts of the Antiochan church, as establish by the Apostle Peter, you are expounding on theology that is divergent from the original. All religions post-Christ are splinter theologies of that one and true Christian Church. (Remember, Christ established that Peter was the rock upon which the church would be built, and not Paul who went off to Rome to establish a church there.)In current 21st century practice, the Orthodox churches of Greece, Russia and the Middle East, and the Byzantine Catholic churches, come the closest to maintaining the original precepts of the chuch and word of God as taught by the original Antiochan church.All other post-Antiochan churches, primarily Protestant and Mohammedian (i.e., Islamic) churches, splintered from that original truth because, in some fashion or manner, they could not conform.This is analogous to taking a position of: "gee, I like the marital vows, except the part about fidelity. So I guess I better institute a new version of the vows so I can feel good about myself."For those who desire to learn more, check out the writings of Timothy Ware (and others) on Orthodoxy.Godspeed,
A happy and safe holiday season to all,
STL

Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself
by Michelle Weiner-DavisAre you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I’m about to say and take it to heart. Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner’s insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can’t feel joy because you’re too busy being angry or feeling disappointed. In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not “give in.” To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you’ve drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma. I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they’re offered the tools, they can’t seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, “Our problems are your fault and you must pay.” As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day observe their parents being “right” but “miserable.” What lessons are they learning about love? If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn’t be reading this if it didn’t), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole. Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances. “All this sounds good,” you tell yourself, “but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?” Good question. You don’t! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen, is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won’t go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you. Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn’t a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn’t easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future. So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind’s eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life.[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Forgiveness
by JustMe
June '2000I thought that my H and I were in recovery, but we stopped being in recovery when I told him that it would take time for me to forgive him. That was my first mistake! I realize now (and I know this goes against Harley's principles) that if anything is to get better, if you are to unburden yourself of these painful memories or even if it is still going on.....that you must FORGIVE!!!!FORGIVENESS is the key here! Forgiving your spouse of all of the hurt they caused and their mistakes they made, allows YOU to be free! It allows you to release the pain that you are carrying around, and for God to carry it for you! It allows your spouse to be released also so that God can work on their hearts and their minds! Since I am not great at expressing what I feel, I am posting something that I found about forgiving: By Joyce Meyer www.jmministries.org Many people ruin their lives and their health by eating the poison of bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness. Matthew 18:23-35 tells us that, if we do not forgive people, we get turned over to the torturers. If you have a problem in this area or have ever had one, I am sure you bear witness with what I am saying. It is torture to have hateful thoughts rolling around inside of you toward another person. Who Are You Helping When You Forgive? Who are you helping the most when you forgive the person who hurt you? Actually, you are helping yourself more than the other person. I always looked at forgiving people who had hurt me as being a really hard thing to do. I thought it seemed so unfair for them to receive forgiveness when I had gotten hurt. I got pain, and they got free without having to pay for the pain they caused me. Now I realized that I am helping myself when I choose to forgive. I am helping the other person also by releasing them, so God can do what only He can do. If I am in the way, trying to get revenge or taking care of the situation myself instead of trusting and obeying God, He has no obligation to deal with that person. However, God will deal with the people who hurt us if we will put them in His hands through forgiveness. It is our seed of obedience to His Word; and once we have sown our seed, He will bring a harvest of blessing to us one way or another. I am helping myself, because when I forgive I release God to work. I am happy when I am not full of the poison of unforgiveness. I feel better physically. Serious diseases can come as a result of the stress and pressure that bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness put on a person. Mark 11:22-26 clearly teaches us that unforgiveness hinders our faith from working. The Father cannot forgive our sins if we do not forgive other people (we reap what we sow). Sow mercy, and you will reap mercy; sow judgement, and you will reap judgement. Do yourself a favor and forgive. There are still more benefits of forgiveness. When you are willing to forgive, your fellowship with God has a free flow. Unforgiveness blocks it. Paul said that we are to forgive in order to keep Satan from getting an advantage over us (11 Corinthians 2: 10-11). Ephesians 4:26-27 says that we are not to let the sun go down on our anger. Do not give the devil any such foothold or opportunity. Remember that the devil must have a foothold before he can get a stronghold. Be quick to forgive. Do not help the devil torture you. I also think it is hard to hate one person and love another. When we are full of wrong things, it is hard to treat anybody right. Even people you want to love may be suffering from your bitterness, resentment and unforgiveness. How To Forgive Like everything else, there are practical steps to forgiving people that must be taken if we are going to be successful at it. I asked the Lord why so many people seem to want to forgive and yet are not successful doing it. He said, "because they are not obeying what I tell them to do in the Word." As I searched the Word, I found the following instructions: 1. Decide - You will never forgive if you wait to feel like it. Choose to obey God and steadfastly resist the devil in his attempts to poison you again with bitter thoughts. Make a quality decision, and God will heal your wounded emotions in due time. 2. Depend - You cannot forgive without the power of the Holy Spirit. It is too hard to do on your own. If you are truly willing, God will enable you; but you are going to need to humble yourself and cry out to Him for help. In John 20:22-23, Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. " His next instruction was about forgiving people. We certainly can use this as an example and ask Him to breathe on us that we might be able to forgive those who hurt us. 3. Obey - There are several things we are told do in the Word concerning forgiving our enemies. a. Pray for your enemies and those who abuse and misuse you. Pray for their happiness and welfare (Luke 6:27-28 Amplified). As you pray, God may be able to give them revelation that will bring them out of deception. They may not even be aware they hurt you, or maybe they are aware but are so self-centered that they do not care. Either way, they need revelation. b. Bless and do not curse them (Romans 12:14). In the Greek, to bless means "to speak well of" and to curse means "to speak evil of." You cannot forgive and gossip or be a talebearer. You must stop repeating the offense. You cannot get over it and also continue to talk about it. Proverbs 17:9 says that he who seeks to cover an offense seeks love. Who Should Forgive? Forgive the person from long ago who hurt you very badly and also the person whom you did not know in the grocery store, for stepping on your toe. Take those two extremes and forgive them in addition to everyone in between. Forgive quickly. The quicker you do it, the easier it is. Forgive freely. Matthew 10:8 says freely you have received, freely give. Forgiveness means to excuse a fault, absolve from payment, pardon, send away, cancel, and bestow favor unconditionally. When you forgive, you must cancel the debt. Do not spend your life paying and collecting debts. Hebrews 10:30 says that vengeance belongs to the Lord; He will repay and settle the cases of His people. Let God pay you for past injustices; do not try to collect from the people who hurt you, because the people who hurt you cannot pay you. Matthew 18:25 says ..."he could not pay". Also forgive yourself for past sins and for hurts you have caused others. You cannot pay people back, so ask God to. Forgive God if you are angry at Him because your life did not turn out the way you thought it should. God is always just. There may be things you do not understand; but God loves you, and people make a serious mistake if they will not receive help from the only One who can truly help. You may even need to forgive an object--the post office, bank, a certain store you feel cheated you, a car that always gave you trouble, etc. Get rid of all poison that comes from bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness; and remember Proverbs 4:23 (Amplified), "Keep and guard your heart with all vigilance...for out of it flow the springs of life." Unforgiveness is spiritual filthiness; get washed in the water of the Word and stay clean. God bless you!

patient,
If your husband it the greatest, and you forgive, and love yourself sooo much (you could be a twin)..Then why are you still so (obviously) ANGRY....waste of time, waste of energy

In reference to Orchid's reply....that is exactly how I feel right now. The OW has stolen my H., moved in with him, and is trying to steal my kids from me. She bought them all sorts of Christmas presents.We aren't even divorced. She knew from day one that he was married and had four kids. Of course he has fed her all sorts of lies too. But even so...she chose to go along with him. Am I angry and bitter...you bet. I am supposed to forgive her...no way. I won't forgive him this time either. What they have done is destroy my family and my future. This was supposed to be my retirement years....getting ready for our final retirement. We have lost everything...financially we are dying. Emotionally, this has really hurt the kids and me...their selfish, self-centered acts. Jim wants me to forgive and move on with my life. Well, I am broke, I have 4 kids to raise by myself (he will take them for suger-daddy weekends 2 a month, when it is convenient for him), my oldest daughter has no money to go to college next year---all because of them. I get dragged to court because he says he doesn't get to see them. Well, he picked 2 of them up--didn't take my son to cub scouts because he hadn't eaten, my other two daughters had to drive themselves up to his apt because he didn't pick them up, he brought them back 6 hours early today....it all has to do with what he wants. Am I ever going to forgive him.....I don't think so. I have forgiven him for years. I have stood by this man through thick and thin. I was a great wife for his military asperations. And then he threw me away for a 28 year old bimbo. The whole thing is incredibly sad and I am totally ashamed of him and his behavior. I wish I never had to deal with him again. I don't want to hear about anyone telling me to forgive him.....you don't know how many times I have forgiven this man....next time it will have to be God that forgives him....I have given up.

Boy MnM, I could have written this. You know I've been thru the cheating mill more than once and betrayed beyond belief ... thing is, forgiveness isn't for THEM, it's for us.If we don't forgive, we will carry this big wad of badness around in us the rest of our lives. It will keep us from being happy. MnM, tell me what you consider forgiveness of your H .... cuz I'm struggling with the same issue and I feel like my XH will never ever deserve my forgiveness. Jo[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

diamondaWhy do you feel this way?What makes you think that I'm (obviously) ANGRY?Is it because I have no respect for OW and no desire to forgive her? I am not struggling with any of this. If you take the time to respond, please include why you think I am bitter, also. Because, I have notcied that ALL ow, will inenvitably say that the wife is ANGRY and BITTER?

SIGH!!! Isn't it time to kill and bury this thread? Aren't we all going through enough without all this? I know I don't have to read it and I won't stop in again to see any replies to my post. This is bordering on stupidity. jd

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
It's my understanding (as a Catholic) that God's forgiveness is freely given if we ask for it and not before. As for the my H's OW - she hasn't asked for my forgiveness. Why should I forgive her? She doesn't believe that she did anything wrong. My H on the other hand, has asked for forgiveness, and is taking steps to make sure that the wrongs he can right are righted, and making sure that this doesn't happen again. The remorse, repentance and desire to earn forgiveness are all there. At this point, I don't believe I have the right not to forgive him. So for today, while I am not there yet, I'm willing to become forgiving.<hr></blockquote>Same here. I was taught that you had to REPENT, feel REMORSE and ASK for forgiveness. My H did all of those things. The OW did none of them. Instead, she decided to basically stalk me. OP and unrepentant WS are always saying "We are all only human." Fair enough. I am only human. I can't force myself to have feelings of forgiveness for her. That is no problem for me and it doesn't effect my life or my marriage. When it comes to Judgment day if the worst thing I have done in my life is hate the woman who had an affair with my H and then tried to make my life a living hell after it was over, then I think I'm in pretty good shape.