I responded to your questions....

The book of Matthew has several passages about forgiveness. A good book to read and study - most is Jesus speaking, telling us what we are to do.<p>Mat 6:14 "For if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."<p>Mat 18:35: "So likewise shall my Heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."<p>Mark 11:25 "And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any; that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses".<p>Mat 5:39 "But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoevere shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away they coat; let him have thy cloak also."<p>Mat 5:44-48 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you, 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect".<p>Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?<p>Mat 5:23-24 "23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." <p>Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth."

Dear Alcoholics wife,
Thank you so very much. You are obviously a kind and wonderful person. You must be very wise too. I suppose that your story could surpass many of the ones here in the amount of forgivenss that you've probably had to measure out in your life. On top of adultry you have suffered other pains I'm sure.
But I'll bet our father in heaven sees that your heart is kind and will be with you on your journey.
I can't say anything more than thank-you for speaking.

Dear Renee,
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, there has been great turmoil in my marriage, being married to an alcoholic is hard, hard, hard. Ours is a long story -- I have been a MB member for over 2 years, but I do want to encourage you all that there is hope. I think I posted a praise testimony last Feb. about the dramatic changes God has made in my marriage. Right after my h moved back home I read the "Power of a Praying Wife"; it changed my life. In the past I was always angry at my h because of his drinking and other behavior. God worked on my heart first, then I began to see how He is working on my dh. God used what Satan intended for evil for good and His glory. <p>Nothing is impossible with God. Nothing. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

What a deep story you have AW. I read once that prayer isn't about God hearing us - it's about us hearing God. I liked that.
I hope somemore people respond to thier feelings on the scriptures you quoted.
Living an authentic life isn't easy. I find it requires constant remembrance of things like forgivenss, love, and compassion. I also find that if we intend forgivenss - then it's forgiveness we will receive as well. Sometimes the easiest concepts are the hardest to follow.
Most of the time the easiest concepts are the hardest to follow. I only try to make my life easier and listen to my soul not my head.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:
<strong>The book of Matthew has several passages about forgiveness. A good book to read and study - most is Jesus speaking, telling us what we are to do.<p>."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>AW,<p>I, of course, agree with the scriptures that state that we are commanded to forgive [what we don't forgive will be withheld from US by our Father in Heaven] however, that is not the issue. No one would argue with that. One must look at the ENTIRITY of the text about forgiveness as to get a complete understanding. <p>The issue at hand is whether one must repent [or EARN] to receive forgiveness. And the scriptures are quite clear that forgiveness is not given to the unrepentent, but to the REPENTENT. Forgiveness is not to handed out like some cheap meaningless candy. Just as Christ forgave our sins WHEN WE WERE REPENTENT, we are to forgive our brother *WHEN* he is repentent. <p>In Jesus' words [and the rest of the Bible is just as relevent because it is inspired by God, btw]<p>About brother to brother:<p>Luke 17:2-5 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.<p>If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."<p>About God to man:<p>Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.<p>Acts 2:38 Acts 2 Acts 2:37-39 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.<p>Acts 3:19 Acts 3 Acts 3:18-20 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,<p>Romans 2:4-6 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.<p>Matthew 11:19-21 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.<p>So, you are correct that forgiveness is required but it is with stipulations otherwise it just cheapens the gift of forgiveness and does harm to the one who needs forgiveness. [they don't see the wrong in their ways and hence, have no motivation to change]<p>And as an alcholic myself, I have to say that if I received blanket unearned forgiveness for my crimes against my family, I would probably still be drunk. [17 years sober] However, my H withheld that forgiveness until I changed my behavior, giving me STRONG motivation to take a hard look at my behavior and change. If he hadn't done that, believe me, I would have continued to drink and just soaked the situation for all it was worth. [as a typical alkie does]

Yes I agree that the easiest concepts are the hardest to follow! Especially this one "let go and let God handle it". For me that is the very hardest. I struggle with that concept every day. But when I look back I see that when God handled things, it turned out MUCH better. Sometimes it looks like everything is going wrong but in hindsight we see what God had done and know that it had to be that way. <p>There's been times I felt like my heart was being ripped to shreds, and why was God letting my husband hurt me the way he was? The answer I received was my husband is a gift from God to me, because He knew that I would pray for him and with God's help and guidance, would be able to withstand the fire that we have gone through in order for my h to become the Godly head of our household He intends him to be. Every day is another turn through the refiner's fire.... <p>Keep listening to that small, still voice in your heart and soul. God bless you,<p>AW

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:
<strong>
Mat 7:1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?<p>."</strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is one of the most misquoted scriptures in the Bible, [not saying that you are trying to misuse it here] because the meaning of the scripture changes ENTIRELY when you chop off 4 and 5. Without the remaining verses one would think it is an admonition AGAINST judging right from wrong! Nothing could be further from the truth! So lets look at the verses that complete this message:<p>Matthew 7: 4-5 ""<*1> Or how [1] can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5
""You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.<p>So you see, it is not an admonishment against judgment, which we are CALLED to do righteously, but an admonishment against HYPOCRISY. For example, if I am an adulterer, then I have no right to admonish my brother about adultery. I must change my ways [remove the mote] before I proceed to help my brother.<p>About judgment:<p>John 7: 24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

Melody,
I love reading God's Word. Every time I do I see something else that jumps off the page at me. Thank you for posting those scriptures. They helped me remember how much Jesus gave up for us.<p>God's word is so powerful and true; the scripture you quoted Romans 2:4-6 "But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed" says much. It tells me that it is between God and the unrepentant, He will deal with them. <p>I have always felt great conviction to be forgiving and kind to all, regardless of what they have done to me, because of God's word that vengeance is His, He will repay. One scripture that God laid on my heart right after my dh and I reconciled was Prov 31:12 "She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life", this verse comes to my mind often as I reminder that I can't go back to being a contentious wife. God has also impressed upon me 1 Peter 3. <p>My husband is an alcoholic. One who is not sober yet. There is no explaining the dramatic changes in his heart other than God's intervention. <p>Today I am so very glad I listened to the voice in my heart that kept telling me to forgive him (even though he never asked for forgiveness) and let Him heal us instead of the world who told me to get rid of him, divorce him, etc. I truly believe that in my situation forgiving the OW even though she was unrepentant was what God wanted me to do. Her sin is no greater than any sin I have committed. I believe that God loves her very much, and wants her to draw close to Him. I pray for her still. <p>May the Lord bless you abundantly,
AW

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:
<strong><p>Today I am so very glad I listened to the voice in my heart that kept telling me to forgive him (even though he never asked for forgiveness) and let Him heal us instead of the world who told me to get rid of him, divorce him, etc. I truly believe that in my situation forgiving the OW even though she was unrepentant was what God wanted me to do. Her sin is no greater than any sin I have committed. I believe that God loves her very much, and wants her to draw close to Him. I pray for her still. <p>May the Lord bless you abundantly,
AW</strong><hr></blockquote><p>AW,<p>That's very noble of you to so freely pass out forgiveness, [whether they want it or not] but I have to wonder if they suggest doing that for a practicing alcoholic in Al-Anon? <p>I have been an AA member for 17 years and I know how the alcoholic mind works, and we will get away with what we can get away with. For example, if our spouse overlooked our drunkeness, lies, deceit, adultery and general destruction, we continued on our merry way - often until it killed us. But it was when someone stepped full force in our path and SHOCKED us that we were forced to reevaluate our drinking. Otherwise, we usually had no motivation to quit. <p>I do know several alcoholics who just died drunk because no one ever held them accountable. <p>Enabling is a terribly dangerous thing to an alcoholic and it is a big mistake to think that kindness and reason will ever work to get an alcoholic to the table of sobriety. Remember, Christianity is not about kindness and saying nice sounding words, but about the TRUTH. It is not a kindness to enable an alcoholic, but the kiss of death. <p>1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong><p>
I have been an AA member for 17 years and I know how the alcoholic mind works, and we will get away with what we can get away with. For example, if our spouse overlooked our drunkeness, lies, deceit, adultery and general destruction, we continued on our merry way - often until it killed us. But it was when someone stepped full force in our path and SHOCKED us that we were forced to reevaluate our drinking. Otherwise, we usually had no motivation to quit. <p>I do know several alcoholics who just died drunk because no one ever held them accountable. <p>Enabling is a terribly dangerous thing to an alcoholic and it is a big mistake to think that kindness and reason will ever work to get an alcoholic to the table of sobriety. Remember, Christianity is not about kindness and saying nice sounding words, but about the TRUTH. It is not a kindness to enable an alcoholic, but the kiss of death. <p>1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ML,<p>Your above quote rings soooo true.... Like an alcoholic, those in the A go through the same steps. My H told me that as long as I put up with it, he felt he could go on like that forever. So all my 'help' was not help at all. I was a major enabler and he was sucking me dry. <p>It got to the point that I had to say 'NO....you GO' before he would face reality. That is why for some of us the only way out is tough love. Otherwise we would continue to be used & abused for the rest of our lives. <p>The piece that gets me is the gall the OP's have in thinking it is ok to do this to others. The OP does not know me. H was dumb enough to show her our picture so she does know what I look like but she does not know me. <p>Have we both been judgemental of each other without fully knowing each other (OW & I)? YES but I did it out of protection of self and family, what did she do it for? I believe her reasons were selfish and to the point that she was and is willing to hurt others for it.
I see her as the alocholic's so-called friend, that is always there to say: "hey buddy, I'll buy you a drink".<p>So I see a lot of simiarlity here between various types of addictions and As. The problem with the A is that legally it is allowed and so legal recourse for most of us is difficult and it is not as easy to diagnose and fix. <p>L.

AW - I agree and see your point. To withhold "forgiveness" I would think that one would be harbouring "anger" because If I am not ANGRY at you then I don't feel the need to Forgive you - but If I am ANGRY at YOU then that would be the emotion that would perpetuate my wanting to forgive you. I think that holding onto anger only hurts us - it destroys a body both phsycially and mentally and emotionally - it is like a weed and will choke your spirit.
I think that it would take holding onto Anger to not forgive somebody and the only person that is destructive to is me.

I guess the bottom line is that it's an act of compassion to motivate someone to REPENT but not an act of compassion to pass out forgiveness and deny the unrepentent any motivation to change from thier ways. <p>I consider it the ultimate act of LOVE from God that He commands our repentence in order to receive forgiveness. Otherwise, we have no reason to change and instead are cut off from God by continuing in sin. Just like the scriptures say, God commands our repentence and instructs us to require the same from those we love. Because it is an act of love.

I'm not going to add anything to what MelodyLane has said here. She's done a wonderful job of presenting exactly how I feel and what I believe.<p>Forgiveness without repentance is of no value to the sinner (I always hate to use that word.). It can release the victim from anger but it does not really release the sin. Therefore it is not truly forgiveness. IMHO of course.<p>I also feel that anger is not directly tied to forgiveness. I do not have to harbor anger at a person to not forgive them. <p>For example, years ago I hired a woman who needed some one to give her a chance when her H left her for his OW. She was not qualified for the job but she had the degree. So I hired her and mentored her. She never quite got the jest of the position but kept working with her. Then I got pregnant with twins and was bedridden through about 6 months of the pregnancy. Was working from home doing much of my work... like writing white papers, designs, etc. She was the person who was supposed to be brining me hard copies of things I needed from work. It turns out that she withheld most of the stuff she was supposed to give me. A lot of it was still in her car when I went back to work. Well without that material, the work I'd done at home was woefully deficient. The entire time I was home she was working on management to erode their confidence in me. After all I'd done such a poor job on the design and white papers. She wanted them to give her my job. Also turned out that she was having an affair with the new manager directly over our contract. I had a good reputation, higher management saw what was going on eventually. Both she and her ‘boy friend’ were moved elsewhere and I kept my position . (I think the moral here is that no good deed goes unpunished.)<p>I’ve released my anger at her. She was scared, hurt, in a bad situation and made some very bad choices. But I have never forgiven her. She used my illness and the still birth of my twins as an opportunity to attempt to screw me over. She has never admitted that she did anything wrong. If anything she continued to attack me until the last time I saw her. The last time I spoke to her she came to my house to play some head trip with me. In my book she is an untrustworthy person. I asked her to leave and to stay away from me. As I said, I am not angry at her I just cannot trust her. If I cannot trust her then obviously I have not forgiven her. And there is no reason for me to do either. This is between her and God now. I’ve released it to Him.<p>The way I think of it is that we do not help a person be the best they can me when we just give them a blanket forgiveness.

Your right Zorweb. That example reminded me of a friend that I vouched for for a postion in our company and then she totally screwed me over too. And never any remorse - lucky I also had a good rep and no permenate harm was done - but that description hit home- your right - I'm not angry at her anymore - but I don't think I can forgive her until she admitts she did me wrong.
Good point and story to illustrate.

Bingo!! Z as usual you hit the nail right on the head. What was done by others was wrong. All that stuff to undermine you behind your back was wrong. Not able to forgive the wrong. <p>Believe it or not, I am willing to forgive the OW if she stops what she is doing. But there is no forgiveness available until then. You know what? That is my right. <p>Same goes for hubby also. My elder's told me (& I already knew this but it was good to hear again), they said that adultery is the one sin that God allows the betrayed spouse to forgive. He does leave that up to the betrayed spouse. This is scriptural. So this sin of adultery is truly between the H & W & God. This is what that 3 fold cord spoken of in the Bible really means. The relationship between H, W & God is more than a piece of paper and those who want to mimimize that need to realize you are not just messing with another human (or sub-human if that what the OP wants to think of the BS) but that OP and WS are actually 'messing' with God. Think that will go unpunished? Well, they can find either amend their ways and 'ask for forgiveness' or find out if God is a person of his word or not. <p>I sure wouldn't want to be the one who puts God to the test. Jesus said that was one thing we all should NOT do. Hm....... ok being a bit religious here but if that is for real, do you really want to make Him angry? Religious or not it will happen to all. <p>If someone is not religious, it does not mean they would escape punishment. That logic doesn't fly in a major diaster and will not fly with God either. Think about 911, many good and bad people suffered the same consquences. That incident was not God's doing just an example of how an incident currently affects all persons if they happen to be in that place at that time. <p>Ok, I will get off my box and go to work.....<p>JMHO,
L.

I was just thinking what powerful words "please forgive me" are.

I just don't know...<p>I was LUCKILY able to forgive OW without knowing if she personally repented or not...without knowing if she was truly remorseful for the pain she caused me.<p>I think it's OKAY to forgive even if the person doesn't DESIRE and/or "deserve" to be forgiven.<p>In the case of Hailey (or olmjmj), I think that they both just need more time for personal growth and reflection. I don't believe that either of these women purposefully sought out to hurt their spouse and/or the spouse of the OP. In fact, they most likely did just the opposite: failed to even take us into consideration.<p>Hailey and her OP should be commended on recognizing that they are both hurting an "innocent" spouse. They have taken the first step in admitting that what they are doing is wrong...now, they need to go the next step and "free" themselves from the pain they have created. They must find their "peace".<p>Likewise, a BS who finds "fault" with Hailey and/or OP in general, also needs more time for greater personal growth. IMHO, a BS who is hurt/angered by Hailey's words has not yet come "full circle" in understanding themselves.<p>There was a time, when I was first struggling with my H's affair, that I allowed OW's posts to personally affect me. I would become almost obsessed with proving my point--how what OW was doing was evil, wrong, ugly, sinful, etc. etc. etc. But, OW like Hailey haven't "evolved" enough yet to understand their own shortcomings; while BS still in pain haven't "evolved" enough yet to be able to understand/find compassion for OW/OP. <p>In other words, posts such as the Hailey fiasco will ALWAYS end up in a stalemate: each person (OP/BS) emphatically believing that their view is "right" and the other's is "wrong". <p>The truth is-- both the OP and the BS are each right...and wrong! It's just gonna take each person a little bit longer on their own personal journey in order to see "clearly".<p>AND, YES! THE ABOVE IS JUST MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ...and one which took me many, many months of personal reflection to arrive at.<p>Peace on Earth...goodwill towards men! Love, ~Marie

Renee - yes for me to hold onto anger causes me more pain and heartache. When we give the anger to God He will heal. We are to overcome evil with good. If I hold onto bitterness and anger just hurts me, not the other person.<p>Melody I agree that "He commands our repentence in order to receive forgiveness" from Him. An unrepentant heart hinders prayers and causes strife. What I am doing for my husband is the most powerful, life influencing thing that can be done.... I pray for him. What God can do in his life is so much more powerful than anything I could do or say. I have seen the evidence of that. God is in control. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>the bottom line is that it's an act of compassion to motivate someone to REPENT <hr></blockquote> I disagree. It is not up to me to motivate anyone to repent, it is up to God and the Holy Spirit, that is their job. God knows best what will motivate someone, and when we try to do His work we get in His way. God has so impressed 1 Peter 3:1-2 on my heart: "Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the Word, they WITHOUT A WORD, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chase conduct accompanied by fear".<p>In my situation What it all comes down to is this: it is not up to me to "make" my husband see what his behavior is doing to him. That is God's responsibility - I am not held accountable for my h's choices. It is between him and God. God knows my heart, he knows my husband's heart, he knows all our hearts. And what is in my heart is to be a kind, loving, forgiving wife, with a gentle and quiet spirit, praying continually. If things were to suddenly change I may be hurt but I am still confident in the love of God and know He will protect and guide me always. <p>My role, as his wife, and as a born-again believer, is to respect my husband and submit to him, as unto the Lord, (Eph 5:22, Col 3:18) and love him. When I gave up trying to change his behavior and trying to do his role as head of our home, and started praying for him instead, the changes were dramatic. Where before my H said he hated me, wanted a divorce, ridiculed me and was never home, he is now home every night, expresses his great love for me, and thanks me for working on our marriage and being so good to him. The change in him was sudden, and can only be attributed to God's work in him. In the past my h would say ugly things to me in front of others, now he praises me in front of others, tells me in front of others how very much he loves me and tells them he would be brokenhearted without me. We have now been reconciled for over 2 years, and our marriage is far, far better than ever (btw we have been married almost 20 years). <p>Even if my husband never quits drinking, I will still love him, respect him, and yes, submit to him, because I have faith that the Lord will provide and is always working in our lives. He is in control. We have been extremely blessed by the Lord, and I thank Him every day for the wonderful blessings he has given us. Each day I thank Him for the gift of my husband that He has given. <p>To the world I may seem to be a fool, a doormat that has been walked all over, but in my heart I feel loved and cared for, by the Father, and my husband. God has given me peace and understanding about my husband's disease. God has shown me so much in the past two years, I'm so thankful for all He has done.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:
<strong>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the bottom line is that it's an act of compassion to motivate someone to REPENT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>
I disagree. It is not up to me to motivate anyone to repent, it is up to God and the Holy Spirit, that is their job. God knows best what will motivate someone, and when we try to do His work we get in His way. .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Regardless of the source of repentence it doesn't change the fact that you are not to forgive without repentence. You would be hindering God's will by rewarding the unrepentent. You are supposed to do the work and leave the *OUTCOME* to God. God isn't a cosmic maid who does all of our work for us. Because if you don't do the work, you actually HINDER his will, which is exactly what you do when you forgive the unrepentent. <p>You are not doing them any favors by enabling them nor is it compassionate. It is simply wrongheaded and might make you "feel" good, but accomplishes nothing. This should not be about your feelings but what is best for the person who needs to repent.