<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>And never any remorse - lucky I also had a good rep and no permenate harm was done - but that description hit home- your right - I'm not angry at her anymore - but I don't think I can forgive her until she admitts she did me wrong.
Good point and story to illustrate.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Renee,<p>I think you made an excellent point here, that it is possible to forgo your bitterness and anger yet not forgive. One can be done without the other.

I just don't know... <p>If forgiving the OW makes it possible to let go of your anger and get on with your life, then it worked for you. I am able to separate the anger and the forgiveness.<p>Tell me, would you trust the OW around your H? Would you trust in ALL other ways? I bet not. I would not trust the OW’s in STL’s case around him because they all told me that they would not contact him if that was my wish. Then they all did behind my back. They have changed nothing. The last time I spoke to every one of them they told me that they wanted to continue their relationships with him. Now I trust STL, and in my book have forgiven him. I trust him because he knows they are all still interested but has chosen to not continue his relationships with them.<p>I think we are all arguing semantics here. There is a fine line between harboring anger/forgiveness/trusting/forgetting. We seem to all be saying the same thing. We have let go of the anger, which in many senses is a form of forgiveness. It is my belief that a person is not forgiven until we can trust them. So where each of us draw the line any or may not be slightly different. It’s very hard to tell unless we all exchanged dozens of story and situations until we got all of the caveats down.<p>Again a lot of this is up to personal interpretation.<p>-----------
RE: In fact, they most likely did just the opposite: failed to even take us into consideration. <p>People go to jail all the time for doing things in which they failed to even take the victim into consideration. That does not absolve them of a wrong act. In my book, a person who does not take the affected others into consideration is saying “screw them”. It is very intentional. If my kids ever use that as an excuse (and they have tried and learned to never use it again) their punishment is much much more sever. What I want to hear, and what I want them to realize, is some thing like “I knew I was hurting someone and at the time it did not matter to me. So I purposely hurt them.” That is taking responsibility and how we raise kids who think before they act.<p>----------
RE: I don't believe that either of these women purposefully sought out to hurt their spouse and/or the spouse of the OP.<p>Again, we can argue if they purposely set out to do it. But once they knew they were hurting someone else, and they continued, they have purposely hurt someone. Intent is everything. Purposeful actions equal intent.<p>---------
RE: Hailey and her OP should be commended on recognizing that they are both hurting an "innocent" spouse. <p>Commended? They are adults, they should be able to think before they act. Adults are not to be commended for realizing the consequences of their actions. It is expected. Again this is in my book.<p>I also wonder about the use of “innocent” spouse. My assumption here is that you are saying that the spouse is not really innocent. How is the spouse not innocent? They may have not been meeting the WS’s needs, but that does not justify the affair. In terms of the affair, I believe it is appropriate to use the word innocent towards the BS. If we could not distinguish in that manner, then no one is ever innocent of anything because we have all sinned in some manner.<p>---------
RE: They have taken the first step in admitting that what they are doing is wrong...now, they need to go the next step and "free" themselves from the pain they have created. They must find their "peace". <p>OK, so here is another one of my way out there analogies to make a point. If a rapist finally recognizes that he is doing something wrong. Is it commendable that he recognizes it even while he is continuing to commit the act he is driven to do? I think not.<p>RE: Likewise, a BS who finds "fault" with Hailey and/or OP in general, also needs more time for greater personal growth. IMHO, a BS who is hurt/angered by Hailey's words has not yet come "full circle" in understanding themselves. <p>I do not buy into this at all. Another analogy… if I find fault with a rapist, does that mean that I need to do some more work to get in touch with my inner rapist so that I’ll “understand” the evil this person has done?<p>What about myself do I have to understand to make me understand and accept adultery as ok. What is wrong about setting boundaries in our lives of what we find acceptable and not acceptable? Since when is it wrong to discuss points with someone we disagree with in attempt to get them to see our side of the issue? I don’t get this idea that being Christian means that we are supposed to forgive everything, no matter how terrible. That being Christian means that we are supposed to accept and let anyone behave in any manner until they come to some point of personal growth to change. And if they never get there it’s ok? What religion in this world purports that? None that I have ever studied. Well except “new age” which is not really a religion but a way of thinking that say do what ever you want.<p>The fact that I do not accept adultery and choose to try to show people the harm in it, does not mean that I have not come to terms with things in my life. Just do not buy that.

Yes it is true that Hailey has not ‘evolved’ enough yet to understand her own shortcomings. None of us have totally evolved enough to understand all of our shortcomings. That does not excuse us when we hurt others. <p>Just as I have no compassion for the crimes committed by a rapist. I have no compassion for the selfishness and hurt (in come societies and religions (like Christianity) it is also a crime) for an OW/OP. That does not mean that I do not have compassion for them as people. There is a huge difference in that. They are both acting outside of the acceptable bounds of human behavior. When I discuss the issues with OP’s and WS’s I am not discussing their worth as people. I am discussing the worth of their sins/crimes.<p>RE: The truth is-- both the OP and the BS are each right...and wrong!<p>Really? You believe that the OP is right? What about their affair do you feel is right? What about her argument that all BS are bitter, ugly, angry shrews who drove their spouses away do you feel is right? It may be right in her eyes. But it is not right in realm of reality. Did you note that when I turned those very same words around on her and suggested that that must have been why her ex-H had and affair and left her she became furious at me? She can dish it out to everyone else. It applied to every but HER. So you see, even she does not believe that her argument is right. As a matter of fact, if you read what she wrote she constantly changed what she was saying… she is confused and does not know what she means. <p>Hailey feels she is right. I feel that I, and the other BS’s, WS’s and OP’s on this site, have some very valid points. It is very good for all of us, Hailey included, to bring these out and discuss them. I do thing it is wrong for people to have called her a whore and other names. Name calling always makes a conversation break down. It was also not helpful for her to start lashing out at everyone. What I don’t understand Is why many of the OP’s tend to want to express their point of view but do not want to hear anything different. <p>You have to realize that when discussing Hailey here, we are talking about a particular type of OP. There are many people here who have also been OP’s who are open to discussing all sides of the issue. BTDT, Orchid and I come to mind right now. And none of use makes excuses for what we did. The type of OP we are talking about are the ones who want to hold on to their point of view and who are justifying their actions. I won’t participate in that. Nor do I think it is somehow morally superior to give them platitudes and hold their hand.<p>And again this is JMHO ...and one which took me many, many year of personal reflection to arrive at.

patient1,
GIVE ME A BREAK!! NO RESPECT HUH? <p>The spouse is the one that has to deny temptation (hello, they are the one that made the vow and broke it). Sure the OP plays a part...
but the spouse is the one that can't say "NO" to "body parts" being waved in their face..
THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM AND YOUR PROBLEM BECAUSE YOU ARE MARRIED TO THEM (that's why it's called temptation). The spouse HURT the family, the SPOUSE ruined the home, etc. Yes it takes two to tango, but the SPOUSE could and should have said no...
END OF STORY<p>If you MUST blame or have no respect..
Put it where it belongs...
Mistakes are made..<p>it could be sex, theft, murder, whatever, but they happen...<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: diamonda ]</p>

aw...I disagree. It is not up to me to motivate anyone to repent, it is up to God and the Holy Spirit, that is their job. God knows best what will motivate someone, and when we try to do His work we get in His way.<p>snl...And what if God decides,(in his infinite inscrutable wisdom) to use AW as the means of motivation? No offense aw, but at least as far as this thread goes (and positions therein) yours is untenable, it seens prideful, and it seems you select Scripture to prove your point, rather than trying to understand the "big" picture.<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

Diamonda,<p>While you may think this is a waste of a thread, it has brought up many topics that people wish to discuss. So to others it has it’s points.<p>RE: If you MUST blame or have no respect.. Put it where it belongs... <p>Of course it is the WS who bears the responsibility for choosing to have the affair. They are the one that the BS needs to deal with. That is no news to anyone here. That is not what is being discussed here. The OP’s part in the affair is what is being discussed here.. .as well as the meaning of life, and anything else anyone wants to bring up. The OP enters the affair out of free will and therefore willingly participates in an act that hurts the BS and the family. They are therefore purposely and willingly hurting the BS and the family.<p>So both the WS and the OP share blame for the affair. I have said a zillion times, and will continue to say, that since the BS is not in a relationship with the OP, the OP means nothing to them. Though the OP did purposely behave in a manner that caused them pain, they mean nothing to the BS and are therefore inconsequential to the marital recovery.<p>That said… there are some people who have had the OP’s from hell. These OP’s have done terrible things directly to the BS’s. Now that is a different story. In those cases the OP’s carry a much larger burden of responsibility for the damage done.<p>There seem to be some who think that the OP is totally without responsiblity for their own actions. Some have even called them victims? Victims of what? <p>Is a theif, a rapist or a murderer a victim as their victim is? Or are they the 'victimizer'? Victimizer I say.<p>RE: Mistakes are made.. it could be sex, theft, murder, whatever, but they happen...<p>Affairs are no more ‘mistakes’ then sex, theft, or murder. They are all acts that are done purposefully. A mistake happens when hit the wrong key on the keyboard. An afair, sex, theft or murder happens when a person purposely enters into the act. (Actually sex does not quite fit into the group because a person can have sex, as in rape, without purposely doing it.) <p>Yes all sorts of terrible things ‘happen’. That does not mean that we need to just accept them.<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

ML, I guess at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you're interested here's some links to articles on bitterness and unforgiveness:<p>http://www.vsn.cape.com/~dougshow/archive1/messages/15.html Here's an excerpt from this one:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"Perhaps the highest example of forgiving Christians have to emulate, is the example of Jesus on the cross, saying "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." [Luke 23:34] Clearly, this forgiveness was NOT dependant on the prior repentance of those responsible for Jesus' crucifixion."<hr></blockquote><p>http://www.tenth.org/qbox/qb_081300.htm An article entitled "Must I forgive?"<p>http://www.tests4.com/Documents/Bible_Studies/Bitterness.htm A bible study on bitterness and unforgiveness.<p>http://www.ficm.org/questions/ques18.htm From Neil Anderson's Freedom in Christ page "we find that people who wait for another's repentance are locked in bitterness toward literally dozens of people"<p>I pray the Lord blesses you and your family greatly,<p>AW

If the BS would stick to where the problems lie (the MARRIAGE)...
this thread would not exist..The OP has no power that the BS does not give them

SNL, no, my only point in posting anything here was to encourage others who are hurting so much; I am very sorry if my posts came accross wrong, or hurtful to anyone. I wanted to share what God has done to restore our marriage; how He changed us both and healed the pain. Maybe I should have given more details about our situation, but I didn't want to say negative things about my husband, I'm not excusing what he did, it was very wrong; so was what the OW did. In the past when I was bitter towards him; things got worse between us. I am very thankful for all God has done for us. Again I apologize.<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Alcoholic's Wife ]</p>

diamonda <p>RE: If the BS would stick to where the problems lie (the MARRIAGE)... this thread would not exist.. The OP has no power that the BS does not give them <p>You are absolutely right on this one. The OP is of no consequence to the BS and to the marital recovery.<p>There are however some exceptions to this…
----If the OP is a close relative or friend of the BS… then dealing with their relationship is a separate issue.<p>----If the OP is harassing the BS, the BS <p>I spoke to my current H’s OW’en only to the point of getting the information I needed. I do not feel the need to forgive them, understand them, or any other touchy, feely stuff.
The reason this thread came up is that there are OP’s who come here all time wanting to explain why it is ok for them to have their relationship with the WS, why they are justified, that they are really good people and the BS’s are screws. The original point of this thread was to discuss dealing with those OP’s. Not necessarily those in our own lives. <p>My ex-H’s OW’en were my some cases my ’friends’. In others they made themselves know at the hospital he was working at… they ruined some of my relationships with other people. One in particular kept doing the ’wrong number’ phone call thing and other little harassments. I choose to ignore their antics and cut them out of my life. Like you said, they have no power that I do not give them.<p>Much of the rest of the discussion is about whether how much responsibility the OP has for their involvement. I do think that is a worthwhile discussion for us to have. If they were indeed victims, then it would be right for us to help them if we could. <p>This thread is about other, not you, coming to terms with the topic. That is what this web site is about, people coming to terms and healing with the adultery in their lives. It is alright for people to do that work. So let them, without bashing them and their efforts. Your points are good ones. Many people on this web site have not had the years to deal with the infidelity in their lives as you and I have. Many just found out this week, or a few weeks ago. They are still learning form the process. Most BS’s eventually realize this. Thanks for bringing them up.<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

So Diamonda, if someone came in and robbed your home. Took whatever they wanted (furniture, jewelry, paychecks, food, clothes, money, children, car, etc.) and left you with the bills, no security, no home, no family, no money, no insurance, etc. You took all precautions normally done by you and all your neighbors, yet you were singled out and the only one who this happened to in your neighborhood. <p>So now is it your fault? The crook does not have to go to jail because it is your home, your things and your fault? <p>In many cases of As that is what it feels like, one's family has been robbed of many things material, emotional, mental and moral. <p>L.

Zorweb,
I understand what you are saying (some OW's wanting to come and explain). You are right, there really isn't anything to explain and nothing makes it right, no matter how someone tries to justify it (there is no justification that can make it OK).

Orchid,
No one is saying it is the BS's fault but an affair and being robbed are different in away (because the WS allowed it to happen)..
Now to compare it to a robbery, would be like the WS leaving the door open, being in cahoots with the thief and then splitting the money gotten from the fence who bought the goods...<p>Big difference then just being robbed.

Interesting but I don't see this mostly as a threat about whether the OP feels remorseful and worthy of forgivenss but more so a threat about how each of us as people need to look at forgiveness for our own healing. I can not be responsible for ANYONE ELSE BUT ME. If you go beyond that you are being co-dependant. That doesn't mean that you can't be caring or stand your ground or absolve anyone of thier responsiblity it just means that when we stand before God in our final judgement - he's not gonna ask about the OP - he's gonna ask about me.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Alcoholic's Wife:
<strong>ML, I guess at this point we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you're interested here's some links to articles on bitterness and unforgiveness:<p>AW</strong><hr></blockquote><p>AW,<p>Let's not confuse the issue here. As I said above, it is important that one NOT hang onto any bitterness and anger, but that is not the issue here. One can release anger and bitterness without forgiving. I think you can see the difference. <p>And you can disagree all you want, but you are disagreeing with scripture plain and simple and don't have a leg to stand on. That is your prerogative but it has to be said that you are following *YOUR* will and not God's will because there is no misunderstanding scripture on this one: <p>Luke 17 3-4 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.<p>If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."<p>
I would also implore you to consider the damage that you are causing your unrepentent H if you are using this principle with him. As an alcoholic with 17 years of sobriety who has been around recovering/non-recovering alcoholics for years, I can tell you that you are causing your H HARM by offering him blanket forgiveness if he is not repentent. To do so is to give him enough rope to hang himself. Have you ever attented AlAnon meetings?

Diamonda,<p>I did not say who the robber was. It may be assumed that it was a stranger but it could easily be an inside job. Nonetheless the house was robbed and the family was displaced. Same effect with the A. In the A's case it is an inside job 100% of the time. <p>The BS may contribute to the robbery if they are careless and leave their valuables laying around. But even then the option to steal is in the hands of the robbers, whatever their connection maybe to the household. <p>You see, I used that analogy with my H. I told him that he allowed the OW to enter our home (via phone and internet) and to rob us of our stability, security, time, money, love and family values, etc. <p>L .

To Melody Lane - the alcoholics wife is doing what she feels is right in her situation. Who are you to judge? For the record, YOU are the one taking scripture out of context to suit your agenda here. Don't tear down a fellow believer. Doing that fuels the devil.<p>No one is the same. you can't possibly know what is in the mind of her husband. Maybe you should ask God to examine YOUR heart and YOUR motives for your negative and judgemental remarks. <p>Signed, a BH

Orchid,
The OP can't steal what was GIVEN to them by the WS...<p>The WS is the one that did the stealing

[QUOTE]Originally posted by diamonda:
[QB]Orchid,
The OP can't steal what was GIVEN to them by the WS... (but they have helped to put asunder what God has joined together)...<p>I still feel, when it comes to a BS..
The majority of anger, blame, and focus, should go to the WS and the marriage..<p>It just seems a lot of BS's spend so much time being angry, staying angry and blaming, that nothing gets really accomplished in the marriage. We are ALL human (the only perfect man died more than 2000 years ago) and we commit SINS (not just adultery). As long as we realise that we have sinned, KNOW that we have done wrong, and ask for forgiveness from GOD...<p>That's all anyone can ask for.

To ML - you are sounding judgemental and that's pretty crummy if that's how you are meaning for it to sound to AW. I know we can't ever "hear" the tone of voice or the little nuance here that would totally convey an opinion and we only have our minds and what we read. But your responses have sounded less than nice to her.
I think she knows what's she's talking about for her just as you know for yourself what you're talking about.
I apologize if that's not how you meant your responses to sound -

I think that it sounds like we are all working hard to come to some resolve with this issue in all of our lives in the best way we can to help us all move through our pain.