<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by I_believe:
<strong>To Melody Lane - the alcoholics wife is doing what she feels is right in her situation. Who are you to judge? For the record, YOU are the one taking scripture out of context to suit your agenda here. Don't tear down a fellow believer. Doing that fuels the devil.<p>No one is the same. you can't possibly know what is in the mind of her husband. Maybe you should ask God to examine YOUR heart and YOUR motives for your negative and judgemental remarks. <p>Signed, a BH</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Is that your judgement? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Sorry, but interpreting scripture properly has nothing to do with judgmentalism, it has to do with correctly understanding the Word of God and using it correctly. That is a commandment. It is the work of the devil to MISQUOTE scripture, not to try and understand it. <p>You haven't demonstrated where I have ever taken any scripture out of context so I can't comment to that. If you would care to discuss your interpretation or where you feel I have done that, I would be happy to discuss it. <p>Further, it does not "tear down" a believer to discuss the correct meaning of a verse, but builds them up in thier understanding. And maybe the truth is negative sometimes, but it is always the best course and the Christian course.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hailey:
<strong>To ML - you are sounding judgemental and that's pretty crummy if that's how you are meaning for it to sound to AW. I know we can't ever "hear" the tone of voice or the little nuance here that would totally convey an opinion and we only have our minds and what we read. But your responses have sounded less than nice to her.
I think she knows what's she's talking about for her just as you know for yourself what you're talking about.
I apologize if that's not how you meant your responses to sound -</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hailey, I sure appreciate your "non-judgmental" input here, but I have to admit that it's not really my goal to live up to your standards. Thanks though.

Interesting thread ... I have to pop in and put in my 2 cents too! <p>I agree with MelodyLane and Zorweb. I just wanted to add something to their thoughts...<p>It's my understanding (as a Catholic) that God's forgiveness is freely given if we ask for it and not before. <p>It's my understanding from my Al-Anon sponsor that forgiveness should not be given unless asked for. Because to do otherwise is to judge the other person. If I forgive someone without their request then I am judging that the offender understood what he/she was doing, that their values match mine, and that I know their motivation.<p>The reality is, no one can read truely the heart of another. So unless someone says to me: "I was wrong, please forgive me" I can not assume that I know what their understanding of right and wrong is, or what was their motivation.<p>I think that many times forgiveness is confused with letting go of resentments. <p>To let go of a resentment, I simply need to accept reality, let go of expectation, take responsibility for what is mine to do, and leave the rest to God.<p>I agree with Melody that Alcoholic's Wife is enabling her H's disease, and her idea of forgiveness is very co-dependent. I would hope that she would seek support in Al-Anon.<p>As for the my H's OW - she hasn't asked for my forgiveness. Why should I forgive her? She doesn't believe that she did anything wrong. Who am I to judge her?<p>Does this mean I condone her actions? Not at all. Her actions were wrong, but I have no idea what her values are, or what her spiritual, emotional or mental state, attitudes or motivations are. <p>My H on the other hand, has asked for forgiveness, and is taking steps to make sure that the wrongs he can right are righted, and making sure that this doesn't happen again. The remorse, repentance and desire to earn forgiveness are all there. <p>At this point, I don't believe I have the right not to forgive him. So for today, while I am not there yet, I'm willing to become forgiving.

AW and others, I want to thank you for the interesting discussion and wish you all a Merry Christmas! I am headed off to West Texas in the morning and probably won't be online much for the next week [unless I can hijack my mother' computer, which will be hard!]. So, if you want to tell me something, please hold that thought until I get back. I wish you all a great Christmas!<p>May God Bless,
Dana

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>AW and others, I want to thank you for the interesting discussion and wish you all a Merry Christmas! I am headed off to West Texas in the morning and probably won't be online much for the next week [unless I can hijack my mother' computer, which will be hard!]. So, if you want to tell me something, please hold that thought until I get back. I wish you all a great Christmas!<p>May God Bless,
Dana</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Merry Christmas, Dana. God bless you too, honey.<p>Love,
Jo

Is not the forgiveness up to the forgiver? The "religious" tone of this thread outweighs human emotion and feelings. I have seen it stated that forgiveness is up to God and is supposed to be given freely...ultimately it is up to the forgiver to determine when they feel safe and free to forgive...for some it is a much longer journey to that point. There is no "rule book" to determine when, how, or even if that forgiveness is given. What do you say to one that is not "religious" in whatever definition you use? Do they then lose the right to forgive or be forgiven because they do not quote or believe in the scriptures? We seem to forget, in MB, that not all human frailty can be explained away as part of the religious experiences. I grapple often in here when everyone talks about turning to God....what if God has set you on this, or any other journey, in order to make you stronger...what if you have turned to him at a time when he has put you in a sailboat to see if you can weather the storm? Whether or not you believe, whether or not you forgive, whether or not you grow.....is it not still up to the individual? What if God has put you in this situation to see your reaction...and your reaction is to let God "fix" it....have you then failed the test? Has your WS failed God's test? Did not God make your WS do what they did? If you can turn your life over to God to fix.....did not God answer some WS quest by giving them an OP? If God is a comfort.....why has he/she seen fit to wrought this path on your life? As I see the religious tones sometimes.....these questions hit me like a 2X4....I am not saying that our beliefs are wrong, that religion is not important, that anyone here is a zealot...but....these just lead to more questions. Is not a WS here just as prone to Gods test as a BS? If in fact, our lives are left up to God, why has he chosen to "hurt" so many? I have a hard time explaining away things like forgiveness as something God wants, when God allows us to have the very thing we need forgiveness for? Are the BSs the only one on the right side of God here, the only ones protected, the ones that are in the right...or does God treat both equally...and if not, why?<p>OK...even this is gettin too deep for me...I need a glass of OJ...LOL!! Too much holiday wrapping going on here!!! [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I am gonna quit whilst I am ahead!!<p>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<p>Trueheart

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Did not God make your WS do what they did? <hr></blockquote><p>Absolutely not, trueheart. God would not set someone up to break one of His own commandments. God gives us the freedom to choose to follow His guidance or not. It's called free will. People choose their own actions. They are not puppets of a manipulative diety. When bad things happen, it's not God's will. It's the consequences of the freedom we have to do right or to do wrong.
When bad things befall us, however, God is there to provide the strength to convert something bad into something better.<p>IMVHO,
Estes<p>[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Estes49:
<strong>Absolutely not, snl.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi Estes,<p>Did you know that was "TrueHeart"? not SnL?<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks, Jo,<p>I saw that as I was proofing the post and fixed it ASAP. You're quick tonight. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Sorry, guys. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Estes<p>[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

trueheart,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If in fact, our lives are left up to God, why has he chosen to "hurt" so many? <hr></blockquote><p>If this is your understanding of God, I can see why you would shy away from religion. <p>Thankfully, this isn't how God operates. The cause of trouble in human relationships are us, not Him. God faithfully hangs in there to rescue us from ourselves.<p>Respectfully,
Estes

Diamonda & Orchid,<p>In the robbery analogy, which is a very good one for adultery, the OP is the accomplice of the WS. Therefore, both the WS and OP are guilty. However the BS is (or in my mind, should be) more concerned about the WS. The OP has promised them nothing. The WS entered into a marriage contract with them.<p>As for the WS giving ‘things’ to the OP. By contract and by law the WS has agreed to forsake all others. So they have broken a legal and moral contract. Their affects do not belong to them alone. As for the any tangible assets, they belong 50% to the BS. So if the WS uses any marital assets to conduct the affair (by spending on dates, buying gifts, paying OP’s debts, etc.) the WS is stealing marital assets and the OP is a co-conspirator in this act. A BS can actually sue the OP and the WS to have their portion of the assets returned to them. They can also sue the OP for alienation of affection… as per the contract signed at the time of the marriage.<p>The first time I filed, 1993, for divorce from my ex-H the first time, he was going on and on to the judge about how he loved me, did not know why I’d filed, and oh, Katherine? (The OP of the day), she was nothing to him. The judge got angry, slammed down a law book and said “When are people going to get it through their heads that marriage has nothing to do with love.”<p>I’ve thought about that statement for years. At first it sounded like the strangest thing for a family court judge to say. But now I understand. Marriage is a legal CONTRACT. A person can love with out marriage. But a person cannot marry without the contract. How many people actually read the contract they are signing when they get married? Most people do not even know they are signing a contract. They think it’s some fluffy thing or a vow that is said in a church. It is much more. Every state has a contract. It differs from state to state. This judge had my curiosity peaked so I eventually took a course in marriage law in NM. I read the contract. No where in the contract does it say that anyone has to love anyone. What is says is how assets are shared, how children fit into the picture, what each spouses rights are in the marital, family and larger community. It also has something in it about infidelity… when a person gets married they sign a legal contract saying that they forsake all others. That contract does not say that they forsake all others unless they get hot and bothered, or they are no longer ‘in-love’, or they get a proposition from some hot babe. The contract does not say that all assets belong to the marital community unless you find some sweetie to give them to.<p>Marriage is a legal PARTNERSHIP between a couple in the same sense that a business partnership is formed between people. What happens when a business partner breaks their contract and rips the other off? What happens when someone who is not a partner, helps a partner rip off the partnership? They can be charged with embezzlement.<p>I wish that the laws would go back to supporting the marital contract on that same basis. You see, if you want to dissolve a business partnership you better go about it the right way or there could be legal ramifications. The same is true about a marital contract. The idea that marriage is solely about love is very new and unique to the Western European and north American societies. Marriage is about furthering family security and safety.<p>The reason that old law, and laws in many countries today, still punish adultery with murder is because of the harsh social problems caused by adultery. If a man leaves his wife and children for another woman, they very well might die or at least live in total abject poverty. If a woman has an affair, she puts the entire family unit at risk. If the family units are a risk, the village falls apart, etc., etc. We live in such incredible wealth in this country that most Americans do no realize how fragile life is in most of the world. <p>Now the description of marriage I just spoke of is the legal description of it. I prefer the version were husband and wife are also in love. But the legal contact is the foundation. If a person does not want all of the legal gobbledy goop to be in the way, then just don’t get married. Live together keep assets separate, or draw up a contract of your own, and love happily. But the home grown contract will not be recognized as a marriage by the courts. It will be a partnership contract. For some people this works very well. But if the couple gets married the contract is a reality.<p>When I filed for divorce again in 1996, I had a pile of checks and receipts related to my H’s spending during his affairs. I was compensated for my portion of those receipts. They were community assets, 50% mine (heck I was the bread winner for years so they really were 100% mine.) If I could have proven any complicity by the OP’s in larger amounts of money I’d have sued them too. My H also transferred money from my income into accounts in his mother’s name. I got that back too… had to act like I was going to make mommy dearest have to fork over part of her house (the house my H made payments on out of our assets for years …. Another way to move money out of the marital community.) I would have never hurt her…. .she is an evil, mean woman. But I would never have taken her house away from her. Just made my ex think I was mean enough to do it. There was more money that he’d moved to accounts I could not complete the trail to. It just disappeared into thin air. But a person has to stop digging and fighting at some point.

diamonda<p>give you a break? absolutely not. I have no respect for people that get involvled with people that are married and continue on with the A.<p>I did get anry with my H and blamed him.
I also told ow personally, that my H was married and living with me. Did she put a stop to the A? Nope. Was she concerned about me? Nope. Did she have concern for my children? Nope.<p>I have absolutely no desire to forgive OW. She means nothing to me. She lost. I have my H back and we are extremely happy. I spend very little time thinking about her. It wasn't always that way. But I did convince myself, that I was better than this female. I'm a lady with much class and I respect for myself. This makes me feel real proud and I hold my head very high.<p>I make no apologies to any OW. I can live with myself, my choices and my behaviour.<p>Damn......if I loved myself anymore, I'd be twins.
I have the best husband in the world. I forgive him, respect him and love him more than yesterday. We are happy and very much in love. What more could I possibly want?

Trueheart,<p>There is an awful lot of holiday wrapping going on here too. I was exiled to the master bedroom and ordered to take a bath by my daughter(12). She’s a real slave driver.. Has STL down there wrapping things they will not let me see. Like the OJ (or what ever) idea.<p>This is yet another long one… think I’m just having fun pontificating here…..<p>Now on the philosophical argument. This thread feels like a dinner discussion that my family would have had when I was a kid. I’m loving it….. <p>I’ve been using the religious arguments here because that is what many people on this site seem to go to. And, if we drop the ‘shalls’ and ‘thous’ and such. The argument is very much what one would argue on a legal and/or humanistic basis. The thing about religion is that today, in the USA, we separate it from law and government. In past human history, religion was the government and set the laws. In most Muslim countries, even today, the state laws are based on their religion. The religious leaders decide much of the law. Just as our legal system uses points of law, the constitution, etc to establish the basis for all law, they use the religious writing as their basis.<p>Basically, the Christian point of view on forgiveness is that there is divine forgiveness if a person asks for it. It is given freely and unconditionally if asked for and person repents. Like you say, for humans it’s not so easy. The Bible has guidelines on what we should strive for… not was we MUST do. Doesn’t this make sense even from a secular point of view? Good religion always does.<p>Much of what is written in the Bible is a basically sound framework for human society. That is why they are in the religious books to begin with. For example… you are right, people are going to forgive on their own timetable. But we know for a fact that it is healthier for a person to give up the anger as soon as possible because anger eats away at a person. It is not healthy.<p>Another problem with trying to base things solely on the bible is that a person can find justification for just about any argument in the bible. The same is true with the Koran. Look how the Taliban and bin Laden have been able to justify their brand of Islam. To properly interpret the Bible, and any other religious writings, a person needs to have a very strong background in ancient laws, society, as well as all the other religious books. That is why people get PhD’s in theology. So any discussion we have here on scripture is merely academic unless one or more of us are a theologian. I can pontificate all I want to here.. But it’s just my opinion… that and a few bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. <p>While many MB’ers are ‘Christian’ many are not. So an argument of adultery based on Christian beliefs may or may not fit for all MB’ers. What I try to do is to take any religious argument and look at it from the secular view, how does it fit. <p>The reason I put Christian in quotes is because even Christians cannot agree on many issues. Many ‘Christians’ cannot even agree on who is Christian. I’ve been told that I am not Christian because I am Catholic. I’ve seen books sold in ‘Christian’ book stores that discuss why Catholics are not Christian. There are those who will argue that the Melkite Catholics are not ‘Christian’. Yet the Roman Catholic church was founded by the Apostle Paul. The Apostle Peter founded the Antiochen Church in Antioch.. These were two of the original 12 Christian churches. The Melkite is a splinter church off of the Antiochen Church. So if we cannot even agree who is included in the ‘Christian’ faith, how on earth can we even really agree on the interpretation of the Bible?<p>RE: what if God has set you on this, or any other journey, in order to make you stronger...what if you have turned to him at a time when he has put you in a sailboat to see if you can weather the storm? <p>This is not who God works by any interpretation. He sets the rules by which things work. After that we all have free will. Anything we do here on earth is by our own choice. I know that people always talk about the idea that God is testing them. But in reality our lives are very much what we create. Sure there are things like war and natural disasters that are bigger then us, out of our control. But those things just happen. They are part of the natural order of things. We choose to react to all of lives trials using our own free will. That’s it. <p>God does not set people up for tests. Life is, as it unfolds based on our free choices is test enough. No God did not answer some WS’s quest by giving them an OP. A person chooses their own quest and finds someone to help them meet that quest. Where we are and who we are today is of our own making. We are exactly where we put ourselves.<p>Be careful about looking at anyone as a zealot. A discussion is a discussion. Any number of things can be used as basis for discussion. A person who uses the Bible in a discussion may not the a Bible thumper. And a person who uses humanistic arguments may not be a humanist at all. I may be a Catholic, but I believe that it is my duty to question everything. My father and mother taught me this. The most educated and knowledgeable priest I ever met told me the same thing. He pointed out that all of the people who have been sainted by the Catholic church are those who questioned the faith and arrived at their own conclusions. He also said that when we arrive at the pearly gates, we are not going to be asked if we followed what a priest or minister told us to do. We are going to be asked if we looked into our hearts and did the right things. If a religious leader misleads us, we are responsible for that. It is a sin to blindly follow.

Again God does not choose to hurt so many. Other people and the natural order of things can cause hurt. God does not make anyone have affairs. God does not make earthquakes happen. The laws of nature make earthquakes happen.<p>RE: I have a hard time explaining away things like forgiveness as something God wants, when God allows us to have the very thing we need forgiveness for? <p>Again, God gives free will. We act independent of God. If He controlled our every move, then sin would not be sin. It would be Him moving us like chess pieces. <p>RE: Are the BSs the only one on the right side of God here, the only ones protected, the ones that are in the right...or does God treat both equally...and if not, why? <p>In a religious argument the WS is on the wrong side of God in reference to the affair. The BS is on the right side of God in that they are not having an affair.<p>But the BS could be committing plenty of other sins in other areas. And for those sins, they are on the wrong side.
I do not think that either the BS or the WS or the OP are more protected by God. We are all children of God and therefore protected equally and pay for our sins equally and receive forgiveness equally.<p>But see now you have me sounding like a religious zealot because I’m answering your questions.. Form my point of view.. .I am not a theologian. <p>Lol… wonder if anyone read this entire thing….

zorweb....Again God does not choose to hurt so many. <p>snl....?????????? And all that smiting and destruction of peple and whole races in the Bible was just an accident?<p>z...Other people and the natural order of things can cause hurt. God does not make anyone have affairs. God does not make earthquakes happen.<p>snl...Sure He does. He makes all sorts of natural disasters occur, what do you think happened to sodom and gomorrah? As for affairs, I agree God does not dictate personal choices, but affair is a label, and arises out of the nature of bonding. If we did not have "affairs" we would not have marriage either (or at least we would not be human beings)...God also does not "make" us marry someone we do not fit, or someone who is not capable of marital committment (or ourselves marry when we are not capable of marital committment), but it happens all the time.<p>z...The laws of nature make earthquakes happen.<p>snl..I agree, we do live in a "natural" world, constructed according to God's plan, so it is a matter of semantics whether we call that God's plan or not. But I do think God "can" and does manipulate the laws of nature for specific purposes when He chooses to do so.<p> th..RE: I have a hard time explaining away things like forgiveness as something God wants, when God allows us to have the very thing we need forgiveness for? <p>Z...Again, God gives free will. We act independent of God. If He controlled our every move, then sin would not be sin. It would be Him moving us like chess pieces.<p>snl...Yeah, if we are "determined" then what is the point? Yet God knows all so where is freewill? It is part of the mystery, and possibly unknowable by our finite minds. I kinda liken it to an ongoing process, our choices (all of us in toto) determine the future, and changes constantly, but somehow God is "updated" simultaneously. I do agree God does not make us do anything (and neither does satan), that somehow freewill cannot be abridged. But we can be influenced in a myriad of ways, and fall under the "spell" of stuff, but it is still a choice.<p>RE: Are the BSs the only one on the right side of God here, the only ones protected, the ones that are in the right...or does God treat both equally...and if not, why? <p>z...In a religious argument the WS is on the wrong side of God in reference to the affair. The BS is on the right side of God in that they are not having an affair.<p>snl...That is not true at all. Nor can you prove it. You make assumptions, and the first is that if you have a marriage license you are married. You have a legal contract, and that is being violated, but it is not clear at all whether you have a spiritual contract, and IMO many times you do not. However if you try to have an affair, and a marriage, you are clearly violating something, and must choose. But choosing the marriage may in fact be the wrong spiritual choice, depends on what is truly in your heart. It is here that God helps, one needs to turn to Him for help in discernment, and the courage to act. One cannot extrapolate from secular marital law to spiritual truths, doesn't work. If it did then theocracies would be the govt of choice, and they clearly are not.<p>z...But the BS could be committing plenty of other sins in other areas. And for those sins, they are on the wrong side.<p>snl...Yes, and that seems to get lost, and since all sins are the same, why do we "elevate" marital "sins"....is the ws any more at "fault" then the bs who abandoned them long ago? (when that is the dynamic, which it may not be of course). In any event, the goal should be to reduce sin in our lives, and IMO one of the goals of understanding marital disharmony is to get all parties away from sinful behaviour..... that can and does mean ending a sinful marriage as well as a sinful affair. The Bible also addresses these issues, I really do not see how anyone can think Scripture blindly sanctions marriage just cause it exists secularly. It has to meet stringent spiritual standards, or it is cohabitation, and there is noting to rend asunder, cause you are not married in the first place. <p>z....I do not think that either the BS or the WS or the OP are more protected by God. We are all children of God and therefore protected equally and pay for our sins equally and receive forgiveness equally.<p>snl...Absolutely<p>z...Lol&#8230; wonder if anyone read this entire thing&#8230;.<p>snl...I am [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I really enjoy this kind of stuff as a um.... activity....but even more importantly I think it is God's plan that we do this kind of thing, to avoid becoming legalistic, or cult like, or following "men" etc.

SNL,<p>As I said earlier, I enjoy this type of conversation too. In my book it is very important mental exercising. And yet it is not purely an exercise. It helps jell one's opinions and beliefs.<p>snl....?????????? And all that smiting and destruction of peple and whole races in the Bible was just an accident? <p>Z…. Yep, proves one of the points I made earlier. We can prove any point using the Bible. There are those parts of the Bible too are there not. There are many people who would argue the following with me.. IMHO, the Bible is a large part history told is a way that we no longer understand… sort of fantastic stories where people get turned to pillars of salt. I do not know if I believe some of that stuff at face value.<p>snl...Sure He does. He makes all sorts of natural disasters occur, what do you think happened to sodom and gomorrah? <p>Though I do believe that once in a while He does do something on purpose.. Like the flood, most natural disasters are not caused by God saying I’m going to punish so-and-so or this entire city. They are acts of nature. Another thing about the pain and suffering on earth… it seems that that is part of the human condition. There is nothing in religion that says we are supposed to be spared suffering. Indeed a large part of life is dealing with random events that cause suffering (like the 9/11 attacks). There are an argument used by atheists that all religion is, is an opiate used by people to help them cope with this suffering. Though it may be a component, spirituality is such a basic part of the human psyche that it has to be taken seriously.. IMHO.<p>______
Well, I need to get for right now. There is more I want to address here but I don’t have the time right now. We are making the 8 hour round trip drive today to visit our son in the residential treatment center…. It’s our Christmas visit with him. Really miss the little guy (if 14 can be called little). Perhaps I’ll be able to get some online time late tonight or tomorrow… but that being xmas eve and all the prep for xmas and family coming over… HELP the holiday is suddenly upon me and I’m not totally ready. Is anyone?<p>Merry Xmas SNL and ALL.<p>[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Dear Zorweb:<p>I read your questions/replies to me late last night. Your opinions/questions are interesting to me. I didn't feel that I should respond too quickly to your questions, so I took the opportunity to "sleep on it."<p>First, I would like to say that I am able to see/UNDERSTAND your point of view. I ACCEPT your beliefs. I am not trying to CONVERT or sway anyone to CHANGE their beliefs to my beliefs.<p>I posted my beliefs only for the sole purpose of showing another POV...of opening the "box". <p>Moreover, I am a bit curious as to why you found it necessary to use my opening line (I just don't know... ), as well as an almost word for word copy of my ending line (AND, YES! THE ABOVE IS JMHO ...and one which took me many, many months of personal reflection to arrive at.) in your own post? I can speculate as to why you would choose to do this, but would rather hear your reasoning...if you are so inclined to share.<p>As for your questions--<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> If forgiving the OW makes it possible to let go of your anger and get on with your life, then it worked for you. I am able to separate the anger and the forgiveness.<p>Tell me, would you trust the OW around your H? Would you trust in ALL other ways? I bet not.
<hr></blockquote><p>I was able to separate the anger from the forgiveness. I resolved the anger approximately one year ago. It took me well over two years to forgive.<p>I can't answer your question regarding trusting the OW around my H because I do not know the OW personally. I do not know how much she has reflected on her own actions and the consequences of those actions. I do not know if she sees herself as justified in what she did, or if she has recognized that she has sinned and sought mercy from God.<p>However, I do seek to give her the benefit of the doubt. I do seek to find compassion for her. I like to believe that she is capable of personal growth and reflection, and that she is capable of recognizing the evil/sin that she has committed. I pray that she is capable of forgiving herself, that she is capable of forgiving my H, and that she is capable of reconciliation and penance for her sins.<p>I don't think that this means that I am condoning what she did or excusing her behavior in any way.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Ohmy_Marie said: In fact, they most likely did just the opposite: failed to even take us into consideration. <p>Zorweb replied: ...That does not absolve them of a wrong act. In my book, a person who does not take the affected others into consideration is saying &#8220;screw them&#8221;. It is very intentional... What I want to hear, and what I want them to realize, is some thing like &#8220;I knew I was hurting someone and at the time it did not matter to me. So I purposely hurt them.&#8221; That is taking responsibility and how we raise kids who think before they act. <hr></blockquote><p>I did NOT mean to imply that someone who fails to take the "victim" into consideration absolves them of their sin. Their ignorance is definitely NOT an excuse. However, realizing that OW did not intentionally set out to HURT/DESTROY me, allows me to release myself from being the "victim"...it allows me to find compassion for her. <p>If we assume that the OW did think of us ("screw MM's wife") and then proceeded to commit the evil act of adultery, then I agree that it becomes MUCH HARDER to offer forgivness to this individual. And, if I viewed the OW (in our situation) in this light, perhaps I would be able to forgive her ignorance, but not the act of adultery-- until she was able to come to me with knowledge that she had acted in sin and asked for my forgiveness.<p>However, again, it is very possible that OW has cleansed her soul thru confession (or some other religious ceremony) and has made peace with God. I like to think that this is possible...again, I like to give the benefit of the doubt.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Ohmy_marie-- Hailey and her OP should be commended on recognizing that they are both hurting an "innocent" spouse. <p>Zorweb replied: Commended? They are adults, they should be able to think before they act. Adults are not to be commended for realizing the consequences of their actions. It is expected. Again this is in my book. <hr></blockquote><p>I agree...adults should be able to think before they act. However, obviously this doesn't happen in all situations. In fact, failing to think thru the consequences of their actions is THE FIRST MISTAKE IN THEIR DOWNWARD SPIRAL.<p>However, I do think that people who have the ability to recognize their errors should be commended for recognizing that they are "in the wrong." IMO, this is the first step in "coming clean". Whether the individual takes the NEXT STEP in stopping the evil act, asking GOD for forgiveness (thru reconciliation/penance) depends on how open and honest an individual is with themselves...and/or whether they have the ability to even care about how they are affecting themselves/others. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Zorweb asks: if I find fault with a rapist, does that mean that I need to do some more work to get in touch with my inner rapist so that I&#8217;ll &#8220;understand&#8221; the evil this person has done? <hr></blockquote><p>No, that is NOT what I am meaning to imply. Furthermore, I do not think there is such a thing as an "inner rapist" in each person (???).<p>I'm offering that it IS POSSIBLE to find compassion for evil doers. Again, this does not mean that you condone their sins.<p>BTW, there is a Catholic website that speaks of ERRONEOUS JUDGEMENT http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm#I (here is an example from the site):<p>IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT <p>1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed. <p>1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits. <p>
...I guess, I am able to find compassion by realizing that not everyone believes as I do-- that ignorance of Christ/God and morals/conscience does exist. <p>Again, I'm not condoning the behavior (as stated above, IGNORANCE makes it no less of a sin!) it just HELPS me UNDERSTAND WHY THINGS HAPPEN...and it helps me resolve my own personal confusion and bitterness/anger over the situation. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>OMM: The truth is-- both the OP and the BS are each right...and wrong!<p>Zorweb: Really? You believe that the OP is right? What about their affair do you feel is right? What about her argument that all BS are bitter, ugly, angry shrews who drove their spouses away do you feel is right?
<hr></blockquote><p>Personally, I don't think anything about the affair is RIGHT. I believe adultery is a MORTAL sin.<p>However, I choose to believe when an OW says that she did not mean to hurt the MM's wife that she IS telling the truth...her truth. <p>I don't think it helps matters to tell the OW how wrong she was (I think this is where the BSs make their "mistake"). I'm NOT saying that BSs don't have the right to attempt to educate the OP or that they SHOULDN'T or CAN'T--as many did try--just that I think it is a total waste of precious time...a mistake. OW will have to come to this conclusion on her own thru personal growth...if, or when, she has the desire to even examine this part of her self.<p>Of couse, I BELIEVE that BSs are right in their belief that: OW ARE WRONG in not going the extra step and thinking of the consequences of their actions-- for had OW done this, she most likely would have to admit that she would be causing pain to the MM's wife. And, even then, had OW taken this extra step (examing her conscience) it may or may not have had an impact on her decision to proceed with the affair...depends on the person.<p>As far as what Hailey believes about ALL BSs (all BS are bitter, ugly, angry shrews who drove their spouses away) -- I believe that she is basing her opinion on what she has personally observed/encountered in her "small world"...she has not yet taken the time, and/or opened herself up to "seeing" or exploring what else exists in the real world. Therefore, TO HER, her opinion is currently "right" ...simply because she believes it to be....because this is all her life has taught her (or all that she has chosen to recognize). --To me, this just points to ignorance...but there really is nothing I can do to change her mind until she chooses to "open her eyes/heart" and search for truth.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> What I don&#8217;t understand Is why many of the OP&#8217;s tend to want to express their point of view but do not want to hear anything different.
<hr></blockquote><p>Personally, I think they are looking for VALIDATION.<p>I think they desire for us to understand what leads them into having an affair...whether it be unmet needs, abuse, lack of self-esteem, lack of strength, etc. etc. etc.<p>I DO NOT think they are looking for us to CONDONE their mistakes, but rather for compassion (as I have already spoken of).<p>I CAN understand why a woman would choose to pursue a married man. I CAN understand her confusion and reluctance to give up a MM who worships her and treats her as if she walks on water. I CAN understand her pain in trying to see the WRONG in something that feels RIGHT. I can understand why she would choose to believe that her actions are OK based on what MM has told her about his wife. BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, I DO NOT THINK MY UNDERSTANDING/COMPASSION MEANS THAT I AM ACCEPTING OF HER SINS.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Zorweb said: Nor do I think it is somehow morally superior to give them platitudes and hold their hand.
<hr></blockquote><p>Again, I do not CONDONE their behavior...not do I attempt to hold their hand.<p>I believe that in order to experience life after death in the Kingdom of God that sinners must reconcile/repent their sins.<p>However, I still attempt to find compassion within my heart for those who have sinned.<p>Again, the point of my post was not to ask for others to be accepting of my POV...but rather to simply offer up a different POV for discussion.<p>My personal beliefs are right for me...just as your's are right for you.<p>Peace, ~Marie<p>[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</p>

I have been reading with great interest this thread - especially the forgiveness issue. I do believe wholeheartedly that forgiveness should be given when a person repents and asks for it. To just give out forgiveness willy-nilly cheapens the gift that it is. That said I also believe that just because someone has not repented does not mean you harbor bitterness towards that person - it only hurts yourself.<p>I do have to tell you that I am a WW who has repented and been forgiven by the most wonderful H in the world. His forgiveness would have meant nothing if I had not been willing and wanting to turn from all I was doing wrong. My H sees my broken heart and holds me when I cry. He knows that is also responsible for the state our M was in that left our M vulnerable to all kinds of harmful things.<p>I am also a Christian who has really acquired a thrist to know God more - not just go through the motions like most of my life. There is a major issue I am struggling with - guilt - guilt over what I have done to the OM's W. I so desperately want to apologize and ask her forgiveness but I don't know if or how I should. The last I knew which was in April she was denying the A ever took place. Her H has her snowballed. I sincerely want to ask forgiveness but will she see it as something else? <p>Can anyone help me to know what to do? Any BS's have any opinions on this issue?<p>kz

ohmy_marie <p>Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I do not have time right now to reply in a manner that gives your post the justice it deserves… We are leaving shortly to visit our son in the RTC, it’s a very long drive for one day to get to see him for only 2 hours. I will reply when I get back. Just wanted you to know that I am not ignoring you.<p>I hope that you do not feel attacked by my post to you. I found yours very interesting. I actually think that you and I are saying very much the same thing but we have very different ways of getting there and expressing it. Thought it may not seem like it, my intent was to explore what I think are the similarities in our arguments. Sure there are some differences, there always will be. As I stated, I think that much of what all of us are debating is a difference in semantics not of substance. I am really struggling with the differences and similarities of our arguments and trying to work them out. <p>To truly judge a person, one must know their intent. Surely we don’t know that… a point you have made. Any argument I’ve made about intent is an assumption on my part. I’ll give your post more attention later. Just want you to know that I greatly respect you and you opinion and had no intention what so ever of anything else. I too am not trying to CONVERT. Am I trying to sway? Not really. I am trying to understand both my point of view and those of others. I do have to admit that what you and others have said have me thinking, really thinking. Who knows, out of all of this my opinions may change, perhaps mature a little. One can only hope. <p>If I come off too strong or a little gruff... well my resemblance to Candice Bergen (and her character of Murphy Brown) is not just skin deep. I know that I can put people off sometimes when I think I’m just being sweet little ole’ me. As I’ve gotten older that part of me has gotten stronger… sometimes the sweet, air-head, demure little girl that I used to be gets lost. Though my family assures me and still ‘legally blond’. My son asked me the other day if I’d loose my blondness if I shaved my head… and the other kids were rolling of the floor laughing. <p>Thanks so much for poking back at me…. It makes me think and that can only be good.

Wow Z...you are getting long winded in your "old age"...oopps...experienced life....hehe!!<p>I did not mean to offend anyone with my "religious" queries, nor do I espouse to know everything about scriptures. I do not "shy away from religion" based on a twisted view of God or the way in which he touches our lives. Although I do not categorize myself as "religious", I have a very spiritual side, dealing with the same types of issues and questions that anyone deals with. My only purpose in asking is to stir the thought processes, and gain more insight into our thinking capacities. Thanks for your replies...I really do appreciate them!!!<p>One last thing for all of you....a sort of Christmas gift to you all from me....if you have heard the new 9/11 version of Silent Night, then you know what a powerful rendition it is...a sort of narrative in the eyes of God. Let us not forget those this holiday season that are struggling with the greatest losses they have ever faced. If you have not heard it...here is a link that you can hear it/download it..<p>www.kiimfm.com<p>Merry Christmas...from my home to yours!<p>Trueheart

omm...My personal beliefs are right for me...just as yours are right for you. (said to zorweb)<p>snl...I must differ marie on this point, there is only 1 truth, and whoever gets it wrong is not going to be happy with the consequences (so is not right unless they are masochistically inclined). These kinds of debates are life and death matters for us all, anyone who thinks otherwise is suffering severe ostrichitis. I do not think we should wreak violence on each other to bring about enlightenment, nor do I think we should persecute (as in deprive folks of security, and the economic means to take care of themself) folks.... but I have no problem with a Christian based government (not a theocracy however), nor do I have a problem with telling someone their position is wrong, and is not ok. Not for my own satisfaction.... BUT to be my brothers keeper I must lean on them fairly hard (and they I). Telling someone ok, we are both right (for us) is the worst possible kind of political correctness and condones wrongmindedness with horrific outcomes for whoever is wrong. I guess I subscribe more to making it clear I think someone is misguided (and more importantly, why) but that I will not shoot you over it.....sort of an agree to disagree thing.<p>As to the ongoing debate over forgiveness, I think their is some disagreement that is semantics rather than substance. IMO forgiveness has little to do with the other party, and everything to do with us. It is a hard heart issue. We are instructed to love our neighbor as ourself, be out brothers keeper, and lots of other stuff that IMO make it pretty clear, harboring resentment (essentially not-forgiving) is decidedly unhealthy for our spiritual welfare.<p>However, we are allowed, indeed expected to keep ourselves safe, physically, spiritually etc. The hate the sin love the sinner stuff. In an extreme that would allow us to kill someone we recognized as a threat to us (could be op), but we must do so without any sense of vengeance or judgement or satisfaction...... kind of an extreme case of tough love. The truths of these issues lie in our heart, and cannot be hidden from God. For example, there is a business man I dealt with a few years ago who cheated me, then attacked me (using the legal system), lieing and attempting to extort money from me. I would not be swayed, despite possibly my best interest to settle, and gave it up to God, as it turned out he was unable to prevail. However he clearly is a very dangerous man, in fact he is a sociopath. This excperience and a few others have provided me with the opportunity to review how I feel about this kind of stuff (God moves in mysterious ways, so who knows).....and I reached the following conclusion. If in some reasonable way, I could act in a manner that was helpful to this man, I would do so.... but I would of course protect myself. Say he showed up on my doorstep, broke and in need of some immediate assistance, I would probably help him. Say I came into knowledge that would be helpful to him to know, but hurt him if he did not.... I would tell him....The point is, I would be living by my principles (which are hopefully God's principles) not instead reacting to my "feelings" about him. This same standard can be applied to all manner of circumstances, feuding neighbors, back-stabbing fellow employees, people who mistreat us in relationships, people who ummmmm trash us on-line [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ..... people who cheat us (money), all manner of circumstances. That does not mean we cannot protect ourselves, and the most basic protection is to not associate with "bad" people, this is not a judgement, it is an asessment we are expected to make. If this involves friends, family, etc it sends a message as well, an important one, it does not mean they are not forgiven, it means we still love (as God directed us too) them, we just choose how we live our life. The difference is sometimes subtle, but it is very real, and it will be recognized and sensed by others. I have had remarkable experiences in applying this behaviour, and it does give one a lot of inner peace. I HATE being angry and vengeful (and yeah I go there sometimes) but I feel so much better when I let it go, it is truly poison. <p>The people who really impress me vividly are the families of innocent murder victims. I am impressed both ways, oft times these are "apparently" decent, church going families, helpful, socially responsible etc. yet they ask for blood, they want vengeance, some say so outright, some call it justice, but their faces tell the truth. Others despite their loss and grief voice no words of vengance or ask for death. Instead they leave it up to God (and the state), and even make it clear they feel no vengeance for the senseless violence wreaked on them, and their hope is that God works in his/her life. The difference is stark, and my feelings just as polarized, those who want vengeance, I understand, but make me feel very sad, the others give me a feeling of hope.<p>I do think we are tested, but agree not directly by God. Instead sort of by life. It chills me to the depths of my soul to think that satan could work through a weak person, enter ones life and kill someone close, the resultant grief leading them to renounce a God who would let such a thing happen, and turning away from He that heals. It is easy to "believe", "forgive", be caring, and noble, and all that good stuff, when life is not so hard, the bumps not so big...... but that is not where belief counts, it is when it is hard, very hard, that the rubber meets the road.