<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>Many of you here are taking this post on a *****ing route as well. That - My point was that - you may be right now - in some area of your life - interacting with an OP or a WS - it may be your cousin, your sister, your brother. Someone you would defend to the death. The action of cheating is wrong - but what if - what if someone you loved was an OP - just what if</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
What if? Would it somehow make it right? Isn't that a double standard to have one set of standards for others and another set for yourself and close friends? I think that is called moral relativism. <p>The fact is, it wouldn't matter if *I* committed adultery, it would still be wrong, still be immoral. You don't justify the unjust because it becomes inconvenient. What kind of "moral" [I use the term loosely here] standard is that?<p>[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

O-man. Thanks - this is a question - for O-man. I think what I'm trying to say. Is that if we as BS's take what we read here - we can gain insight into how an A really works. Don't know about all of you guys but some of these OP say things that make me think - wow - so the WS and the OP are over there feeling all is well and you guys suck - Didn't hailey say that her MM had told her how much he loves W - how he had at least at one time felt that she was his soulmate. I think my EX may have felt that same love for me in the beginning of our marriage - but what he told me while he was in the fog didn't make me fill that way. Made me wonder if he had ever told the OW in our case - that he had loved me too. I hope so at least.
but back to O-man. I'm just asking. You've got to know at least where the enemy can be found right? and wouldn't it beneficial to know THEIR weaknesses? The more you know - the clearner the kill? Right? just asking - and asking O-man.

I think this is a perfectly OK place, as is most places... to be frustrated, upset, annoyed, and openly angry at OW's... and their behavior... or OP's. Sorry guys, part of the healing process and PLAN AING helps when you have another place to vent all those angry and upset feelings, words, etc. <p>If we say we cannot vent how we feel to each other about OP, how can we really Plan a, without support for angry feelings... thanks so much, L

Gosh...I hope that I can get to a point where I can judge each person and be morally superior, so as to know that I am better than others and be able to see inside each of them to know if, in fact, they are truly remorseful, or when they are remorseful enough to deserve to be forgiven or given a second chance. (OH, sorry, even though I am repentant, remorseful, and have had a complete change of heart...I do not deserve that same forgiveness, for I have already proven myself unworthy since it was I that chose to do something that hurt someone else.) So, I should be condemned to be less of a person, my wisdom and experiences are tainted since it was I that was a WS and could never again be seen as whole by someone that chose to resist. So, this forum should now only be for those that have never been a WS, could never be a WS, and are unable and unwilling to ever understand or forgive a WS, no matter how things turned out. And what would we say about the BS that, even if the WS is truly repentant, remorseful, and does everything in their power to prove their love to the BS, still refuses to forgive and give that person another chance? Do we say that person is wrong for not forgiving? No, usually, we are able to blame the WS for ruining their trust, putting them in a position to not be able to move past things, and ruining their future relationships as well. Rather a double standard too, is it not?<p>As it is possible to ignore WS/OP posts that smack of justification/rationalization, I am more than convinced that not posting on threads that are "volatile" is a good idea, no matter which side of the MB fence they come from. I have learned from my mistakes, make up for them on a daily basis, and realize what I did. I cannot take it back, do not accept what I did, and relive it every single day (just like a BS does). I do not, however, believe that any of us has the right to be so judgemental. I will step off the soapbox now and return to watching as it seems it is a much safer way to learn.<p>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams*<p>Trueheart

renee k and all<p>You are right that some info can be gleamed from the OP posts. The bit about her saying that he loved his wife is interesting. Perhaps it does help some people. <p>They are not, however, the BS’s real problem. They are actually superficial to the marriage in that they are being used (perhaps not intentionally) to air a marital problem They are not THE marital problem. It is dangerous to over focus on the OP.<p>We have many OP and WS here who are regular, contributing members. They have shared a lot with all of us. I have no problem with the OP who come here and treat people respectfully. But the real problem I see on this forum is that it seems that no matter what a person says to some OP they take offense and want to fight. If 5 people are trying to be helpful and one bashes them, they lash out at all 6 people. I don’t know how to get beyond this. Yes some people were really nasty to Hailey. I guess that some people have been really nasty to Katie Scarlett. I have not followed everything written to Scarlett. But I know that I have never been nasty to her. If anything I have reached out to Scarlett and been supportive of her.<p>Yet what I see on the Hailey threads is that Hailey responds to almost everyone with her fangs out. She will respond nicely for a while, then whammy … she’s mad again. Not at an individual but it seems at everyone. It is hard to tell who she is lashing out at and who she thinks is helping her. It makes it impossible deal with her. <p>I do think that we as a group need to find a way to deal with OP. Perhaps we could turn this thread into some sort of soul searching about that. It really does no one any good to lash out at anyone. If some MB members want to vent about OP maybe it can be done in a thread away from them. But I seriously do not know how to respond. <p>I am not sorry for their pain.. .they choose it. I do not think of them as victims. If it were my friend, son’s teacher, neighbor who told me of this type of attitude I would not ‘make nice’ with them. If they asked my opinion or advice I would tell them the same things I say here on MB. I do not believe in standing by while someone is hurting others. Just will not do that. As a matter of fact read what has been written. It sounds like a game they are playing. My take on Hailey is that her intent on coming here was to thump her nose at the BS… she says that she had some purpose but never really clarified that. It’s all very mysterious and she left with some game about everyone deciding for themselves what she got out of their posts????? Boy is that convoluted logic and a game? Think so. <p>I agree with Trueheart… but then again I always do. He comes from such a wonderful place. We have to be careful about batting around OP’s and WS’s. If even one comes here seriously trying to recover their marriage and/or find their way, and sees and OP/WS being given a hard time it will make them very shy about posting here. And we will have lost a chance to help one marriage and one person. But for the life of me I don’t know how to respond to someone like Hailey I tried to be supportive but don’t think it was well received. Indeed she seems to have accused me of playing some sort of game (But she said that I as very good at it… so I guess that’s a complement. Don‘t ya think?) So how are we supposed to respond? I guess my only choice is to not respond to OP’s anymore until I know their real intent there. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

I agree with those who mentioned righteous anger and have felt much of what a lot of what has been mentioned here by the BS's. I was a BS also, and have to say that was the most horrible, devasting and deeply hurtful experience I have ever been through. <p>The following is from Neil Anderson's daily devotional on Thursday, December 13, 2001.The prayer at the end seems fitting in the case of the OP. Forgiveness is the key here, God expects us to forgive others, and not harbor unforgiveness in our hearts. We only hurt ourselves when we harbor unforgiveness. It is like a cancer that eats away at your soul.<p>For me, I didn't experience freedom from the pain of my dh's adultery until I forgave the OW. I don't condone her behavior by any means, but I do feel that God will deal with her. Deuteronomy 32:35 says "I will take vengeance; I will repay those who deserve it. In due time their feet will slip. Their day of disaster will arrive, and their destiny will overtake them.'" NLT For me, it is best that I let God handle it. <p>Neil Anderson's Daily Devotional:
"When King Herod had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. "In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written: 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means the least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"<p> --Matthew 2:4-6 New International Version<p>THOUGHTS ABOUT TODAY'S VERSE...
"The first will be last and the last will be first." That's one of Jesus' favorite sayings. Isn't it interesting that God said it long before he was born. Isn't it interesting that those who knew the Scriptures, but didn't know Jesus, said it too! Isn't it interesting that Herod and Jesus lived it thirty years before Jesus would teach it? Isn't it interesting that Jesus gave us the Lord's Supper to remember that while Jesus died and shed his blood, on the first day of the week, Sunday, he rose. When it matters most, Jesus and his people will finish first!<p>MY PRAYER...
You, O Lord, are marvelous. You are God Almighty, the holy and majestic Creator. Yet you became the least so I can share in your glory. Please help me, O God, never to look down on someone else because they look like the least. I know, Father, that as I serve and love them, I'm serving and loving you. In Jesus name I pray. Amen.

I would like to apologize for that last post...I was being rather testy this morning. I didnt come from that place that Z referred to...I guess I am tired of reading ALL of the negativity, not that A's are not filled with it. It just seems that, as of the past month, it is much more frequent and the chosen way. So, please forgive my lapse into that realm of sarcasm. <p>Trueheart

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>Many of you here are taking this post on a *****ing route as well. That - My point was that - you may be right now - in some area of your life - interacting with an OP or a WS - it may be your cousin, your sister, your brother. Someone you would defend to the death. The action of cheating is wrong - but what if - what if someone you loved was an OP - just what if.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p> I have completely severed 2 friends from my life for that very reason. I reminded them of the hell I went through and that the OP rarely "wins" (for lack of a better word). All I got from my pleading were the usual lame justifications. I realized that if a friend, or even a relative, had that attitude after seeing what it did to me, they aren't someone I need in my life. I also realize that I could never trust them, I might be the next back stabbed if I have something they want. Now, if at some point in time they come to me saying that they realized how wrong it was and that they are truly sorry (not just sorry for themselves because they got dumped) that is a different story. I think anyone who has true remorse and wants to make amends deserves a second chance. But I have no more sympathy for an unrepentant OP or WS than I do for someone who beats puppies (I'm sure even people who beat puppies have justifications for why it's okay). Funny thing is, my former WS is now even more disgusted by unrepentant cheaters and OP than I am.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by trueheart:
<strong>I would like to apologize for that last post...I was being rather testy this morning.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>trueheart,
I normally only post on the Recovery board, but this title caught my eye from the main page so I came to take a peak. After reading page 1 I had decided I was going to keep my nose out of this debate, then I read your post. Let me just say, no need for apology I think so far yours is the best reply and maybe some sarcasm was needed.<p>And since I&#8217;ve stuck my nose in here let me add this for all the OP/WS (and usually both at the same time) out there. Personally, I thank you for being here. Once the fog has lifted the input you offer is priceless.
My W is an OW to someone and I have seen first hand her pain and realize one mistake does not redefine her as a person.<p>Now I also witnessed the olgjmj fiasco, if anyone would have tied her to the stake I would have gladly thrown the match. But hers was the worst example.<p>os<p>and B-4 it is said yes I'm going back to the Recovery board where I belong. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Trueheart,<p>Re; (OH, sorry, even though I am repentant, remorseful, and have had a complete change of heart...I do not deserve that same forgiveness, for I have already proven myself unworthy since it was I that chose to do something that hurt someone else.) <p>Please don’t let this get you down. You are a good guy and an inspiration to all. Anyone who has been here very long has a lot of respect for you. Like you say, if there is not forgiveness and repentance then why try? Without those none of us could go on and none of our marriages can be recovered.<p>We have all made stupid choices in life. Mine have been different then yours, make have no doubt that I have made mine. I just have not come here and exposed them to the world. It has taken you a lot of courage to do that. You have helped many… me for one.<p>I’m just concerned that you might be hurt by this. You do not deserve that.<p>Righteous indignation is a very nasty fellow. It can boomeranged back and bit us in the a$$. Many of you do not know my H’s story as he has not posted on here in a while. The short story is that his first two wives left him for their OM. The first one just ran away when he was at work. He’s never seen her since. The second is quite an other story. By his own accounts he was very self righteous about all of this. Especially to his second wife. How could she defile the vows she made, yada yada yada… we’ve all said them and heard them. <p>Then he says that the good Lord feed him some humble pie… he had a string of internet affairs between the time of his second divorce and up the 9th month of our marriage. This is a man who thougth he was above such ‘vial’ behavior. Says he now can be a little more forgiving of his wives. He understands how strange and pervasive the fog is. It was a very hard lesson to learn. I know it’s one that I do not want to learn.<p>Another thing that I was thinking today is that if I had cheated on my ex-H during the last 7 years or our marriage, I don’t think I would have felt any remorse. Things were so bad, he was so out of the marriage and so abusive that I would have felt that he had no right to be upset. Perhaps I would have even felt justified. In my darkest moments I wish I had.. I’d have at least had someone to hold me instead of someone to yell at me and belittle me day after day. So when a WS comes here and tells us that their marriage is the pits, that they had an affair because their BS was not just not meeting their needs but was being abusive, I understand where they are coming from. I have to have some compassion. An affair is never the right choice. It is always morally wrong. But humans often seek to fill their needs first and worry about the morality of things later.<p>These are very complex issues. Every story here may have a similar thread but they are all unique.

Yep, acceptance, understanding, patience, forgiveness.... we're all striving for that. THis IS a great place to voice opinions, and they are just that.. opinions. Based on our own limited knowledge and experience. <p>How better to learn than to sit back and listen? Perhaps ask questions? Accept and respect people while they're trying to figure themselves out? Respect people... but not necessarily their actions. "Hate the sin, love the sinner."<p>Those of us practicing plan A, this is also a great communication "practice ground" for non-LB communication. Let's practice it! <p>We probably all know someone that has been - or is - a WS or OP. And if you know their situation, you might can actually see HOW they got in that situation. None of us are perfect, and there really is NO excuse for infidelity... but attacking someone, ramming your opinions down their throat, or preaching at them WON'T change their mind, nor will it bring them to a point of WANTING to change the situation they are in. We are all doing the best we can in life to figure ourselves out - our goals and dreams - and how to get along with each other. We don't want someone else trying to fix us or change us.<p>How have we learned to deal with our own WS's in our marriages? By preaching at them? Judging them? Telling them how WRONG they are??? nope. So shouldn't we treat all WS's and OP's like we treat our own? With respect.... no anger, no selfish demands, no judgments....<p>Oh well... there's my 2 cents. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Yes I have known at least a few OP in my time. One my best friend and one my H. Think about it, our spouses are OP to someone. And yes I continued to love them, not for what they were doing, but because I knew they were about a whole lot more than the A's.<p>I talked to my friend and was honest about what I saw happening thanks to a lot of what I learned here. She started paying attention to what was happening and what she was hearing and don't you know she broke it off because he was lying to her. Enter A #2 which she thought was okay because she was separated. I talked to her again...this guy had just broken it off with a MW because she went back to her H. In the end same result. Is she still my friend. Yes, I will not desert her, it is obvious that she needs someone to talk to and be honest with her. That is me. She also needs a lot more help than just I can give her as she has had multiple one night stands as well, and I can point her in that directions also. She knows me and knows that she can trust me to tell her the truth and keep her best interest at heart.<p>As for my H, yes I love him and I will not desert him either. He is my past and my future, in 50 years will this very small period of time in our lives REALLY matter. Not in the larger scheme of things I think ( or maybe hope). It will be a time that brought about a lot of change in both of us, and I hope that the things that we both have learned will carry us into old age together. It has not been easy, as a matter of fact there were times when I would have preferred death, but I survived and like the phoenix have risen from the ashes a beautiful magnificent bird ready to soar.<p>Did I lose respect for them...yes...but only for the person that they were and the actions they were chosing at the time. Can that be changed, yes, but it also takes a change in everyone involved. Did I hate our OW? At times yes and even dreamed one time that I shot her. But when I finally let go of my anger, I found compassion. I understood why she felt the way she did (I felt the same way and was getting treated the same way by MY H), she made some VERY WRONG choices based on a lot of miscommunication and misinformation that had devastating consequences. But you know what, in the end I hope that she has found happiness in her life with her H and family.<p>She was searching for something, so was my H. Both were lying first to themselves and then to others. Both were vulnerable...not a good combination. We all know the jist of what happens...the important thing is what we choose to do in the long run. Prolonging bitterness, hatred,
self pity does nothing to aid in recovery. I know, I been there/done that. I'm not saying that you ever have to do or feel anything about OP, but it helps to try and understand where they are coming from and just what it is that they are 'doing' for our spouses. The letters OW wrote to my H gave me great insight into that, and while I hated them passionately I could see why H was tempted and also the things that eventually would be the nail in their coffin. The biggest one... she didn't really know my H. So lets remember that while we may ----(choose your own word) the OP we are also living with one.

victoria farrar,<p>Not all WS's are OP. To say that the WS is an OP implies that they are having an affair with a married person. That is not always the case.<p>I did get the point of your post.. .it is a good one.

You are right, point taken ... but a good majority of them are. Glad that it made at least a little sense.<p>P.S. If our OW HAD been single, the gloves would have come off and I would have ripped her to shreds and not had a second thought. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Would have felt bad later on, but that would have been my first instinctive reaction. Self protection I guess. So why did I have a totally different reaction because she was married? Guess I didn't want to be as destructive as she/they were being.<p>[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: victoria farrar ]</p>

I'm not sure why some of the more bitter-sounding BS tick me off on this board. I mean, I understand that they have been betrayed and very deeply hurt. I guess...I just think of how my own situation would be if I were dealing with an SO that was bitter and always throwing things that I had done back into my face. Some of them seem to wear their "poor me" badge a little too proudly...maybe because it absolves them from taking their part of the responsibility for what went wrong in the relationship pre-affair.<p>If it's the WS's responsibility to repent what they've done, then it almost seems like the BS's responsibility to FORGIVE them for what they've done. Not forget, mind you...but forgive. I saw the BS's forgiveness described somewhere as an awesome power, and that's exactly what it is. Sure, you can bring up what the WS did to you to justify anything and everything you may want to...but how long do you think they'll stand for it?<p>It makes me sad to see some of these bitter BS...with the kinds of attitudes they seem to be holding on to, I just don't see how they'll get too far in their recoveries any time soon.

Another thing...this may not be true for every OP...but I would imagine that many of them are victims in their own right. When you're a WS and you're relationship with your SO is going to hell, it's easy to give false promise after false promise to the OP...easy because at the time you believe these promises yourself...you don't think you're lying (maybe this is what's meant by the "fog").<p>My OP didn't seek me out...I sought him out. He stayed with me because he loved me and because he believed that we would be together. He's no vicious homewrecker...and even if he didn't deserve your respect, he is at least deserving of your sympathy...as many of the OP are.<p>[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by renee k:
<strong>
but back to O-man. I'm just asking. You've got to know at least where the enemy can be found right? and wouldn't it beneficial to know THEIR weaknesses? The more you know - the clearner the kill? Right? just asking - and asking O-man.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, education is the source of life. Knowledge is power. This forum can be a source of great advice or poor advice. The problem is discerning between the two extremes and avoiding the bad advice. BSs should be very cautious as to where they seek guidance.

I know I'm one of those bitter sounding BS's but truly it's because I have no cheeks left to turn. During my ex's A and during the seperation and divorce I played the nice guy and never lashed out, never demanded anything and never made their lives miserable. For playing nice and trying to keep things amicable I got in return:<p>My savings drained to nothing because he kept blowing the bill money on OW and I kept having to withdraw from my account to keep us fed and a roof over our head.<p>My schooling cut short because the turmoil that ensued made it impossibe for me to keep up.<p>My home business destroyed because I was violently driven from my home one night when he pulled a knife on me and things fell into neglect.<p>He put my cats to sleep while I was away at my mother's taking a break from it all and we were deciding the fate of our marriage(after the knife incident). OW was allergic to them and so couldn't come to our home until they were gone.<p>He threw away most of my possessions in that time as well to make room for other things.<p>Transferred all of his debt(30,000) of it into my name(I had better credit and could get us a lower apr and thought I was helping us out) right before pulling all of this(one month later it started and I believe this move was calculated)and left me with it resulting in my having to declare bankrupcy while he is smelling like a rose and debt free.<p>I've gotten no support or divorce settlement even though I put him through college due to the fact he left me so broke I couldn't afford a lawyer.<p>I have been virtually homeless since Feb. because of all this and am only going to have a new place come January. <p>So there you go. My ex and the OW did a job on me and yes, I'm bitter. I'm sorry but being understanding, nonjudgemental and avoiding anger has left me in the poor house. The last year has been hell and I'm only now recovering meanwhile they've been having a grand old time of it.<p>Both of them have laughed at me and the fact that their affair went on under my nose because I trusted my ex implicitly. Both think they did very little wrong and it just happened. I've paid in every way possible for his and her actions and I'm tired. I'm tired of forgiving and holding in my anger. I'm sorry but I'm only human too.<p>I vented on Hailey because I'm tired of listening to people go on and on about how "it just happened" and that there's something morally ambiguous about all this. No. It's wrong and that's all there is to it. Why is it that shame is such a dirty word now? Why can't we call people on the things they do wrong? Yes, I've done stupid things in my life and I've been called on them. I'm tired of coddling people who are destructive and hurtful and inconsiderate.<p>[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]</p>

To Nduli2,
You will recover and will see better days. No one has any right to comment on how you should feel. Hang in there.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>I'm not sure why some of the more bitter-sounding BS tick me off on this board. I mean, I understand that they have been betrayed and very deeply hurt. I guess...I just think of how my own situation would be if I were dealing with an SO that was bitter and always throwing things that I had done back into my face. <p>If it's the WS's responsibility to repent what they've done, then it almost seems like the BS's responsibility to FORGIVE them for what they've done. Not forget, mind you...but forgive. I saw the BS's forgiveness described somewhere as an awesome power, and that's exactly what it is. Sure, you can bring up what the WS did to you to justify anything and everything you may want to...but how long do you think they'll stand for it?<p>It makes me sad to see some of these bitter BS...with the kinds of attitudes they seem to be holding on to, I just don't see how they'll get too far in their recoveries any time soon.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Often venting on this board doesn't have a thing to do with the current state of our marriages. I have NEVER, EVER thrown the affair in my H's face and we have been in a happy and successful recovery for over 2 and a half years. He asked for my forgiveness and his actions showed true remorse. That's what counts. I still have a lot of hatred for the OW because after the affair was over she harassed ME and tried to make my life hell. Before I hear "You need to forgive or it will eat you up inside blah blah" I am not that kind of person. Forgiveness to me is earned, and it's a feeling that I either have or I don't. I could say "I forgive her" until I'm blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. She doesn't deserve my forgiveness. Let God forgive her if he wants to. I am also not the kind of person who has any problem having animosity towards someone in a passive way. It doesn't "eat away at me" or otherwise effect my every day life. I don't hink about it much unless I'm on the board and it's been well over 2 years since she, or anything about the A, have been discuused in our home. So don't assume that every BS is throwing the A in our spouse's face. My main problem with the unrepentant OP and WS is that I remember all too well the agonizing pain I went through, and I can almost feel it again when I hear about someone else going through it. There are many people here in the midst of their spouses' active affairs. The last thing they need to have is some OW coming here telling them that they drove their spouse away, and lots of people find true love with their OP, and the BS should just let the WS go to be happy with that new soulmate etc etc. That is not "marriage building". IMO a single OW who isn't sorry for her involvement in an A only posts here for one reason, to cause pain and trouble to people who are already at one of the lowest points of their lives.<p>[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: fairydust ]</p>