K:<p>I agree 100% (about the C'ing, not necessarily the ponies!)!<p>Persevere! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Conan-<p>Here is the Retrouvaille site<p>http://www.retrouvaille.org/index.html. I am not a big church goer either, there is only a minor amount of dicusion on God and sacrament of marriage, and the program is great. You both check into a motel on a FRiday night and spend a weekend in various exercises and dialog skills. It is not an encounter group where you have to speak in front of everyone, it has short presentations then the couples go back to their rooms. I can't say enough good things about it. Perhaps you can get your wife to it without mentioning the church involvement or simnply say the truth that it is sponsored by a church but non denominational and open to all. It really has some tremendous healing aspects to it as well as skill sets fror the future, I wish they offered it in High School ! Regarding you ww, the only way I have been able to deal with mine quite frankly is to think of her as confused messed up and malfunctioning. The thought that she is thinking clearly and rationally is as painful as
it is unlikely. Sounds funny but I think soemtimes of Bill Clinton, a smart guy who risked everything while the whole world was watching him in the highest office in the land. For what we puzzled citizens asked, what a dope! Now we know, the world's most potent elixir. Think of all the generals, admirals, popes and company presidents who did it too and it doesn't seem so strange that a housewife and mother heading into middle age might malfunction too. I kind of feel the same way I would if a loved one got mixed up with drugs. I would know that it wasn't done to hurt me, that it was about their weakness not mine, and that I would be in a better position to save them then they would. So I have taken it upon myself, maybe I can "rescue" my wife and give her a chance at the kind of life she really would wish for herself, one of stabilty, constancy, love, and fidelity. The dream is that someday your wife and mine will look back and thank us. Hang in there and stay in touch.<p>Jack

Jack, thanks for the site, but thanks more for your parting words. That was really insightful. Damn, you are a smart guy. Any chance you live in the Chicago area, I would like to take you out for a beer. LOL

Conan-<p>I appreciated your advice last week very much as well, and would love to have a beer with you but am in California, rats! Let me know how you Retrovaille if you go. I am going to mention this site at my next meeting, I think it has been great to be able to share these thoughts with people in the same boat, but I'd still like to have that beer.<p>Jack

I looked at the site today and then wrote an email to my W seeing if she will go. I will let you know how it goes. As an aside, she decided today that she didn't want to do the MB questionaire again like we talked about doing. We were going to discuss it Thursday night. She said she doesn't know what she wants, but shw did mention that although affection she had on her old questionaire that it wasn't a need of hers now and she really didn't want to be touched. This is odd because I have been doing a very good job of holding her hand and putting my arm around her when we are together.<p>I think she may be withdrawing from me in favor of the OM. I'm pretty sure she had promised him in the past that she would avoid having sex with me... now that is cold. For once in my life having no sex with my W is OK with me (I'm afraid of catching something or "being there" shortly after he was... yuck).

Conan-<p>Maybe it would help convince your W that the initial weekend is a great way to take a guided tour of marriage recovery in a non-threatening way with other nice people who have either done it already or who are interested in finding a solution, the solution might very well be to end it but either way the weekend is a great way to move things forward to a decision point one way or the other. From a strictly what is best for Conan point of view, I think the program has a way of smoking out the fakers, it would be beyond diabolical for anyone to go through it and return to an affair. Not that it has never happened but it is one unlikely and two if it did you would know all you need to know and I think could leave the marriage in a better mind.<p>Jack

Excellent point... my thoughts exactly. I also was thinking that it will be very interesting to see her reaction and openess to the idea. Remember, she has presented herself to me as the angel who has ended all contact with OM.

Jack, you stated:<p>"From a strictly what is best for Conan point of view, I think the program has a way of smoking out the fakers, it would be beyond diabolical for anyone to go through it and return to an affair. Not that it has never happened but it is one unlikely and two if it did you would know all you need to know and I think could leave the marriage in a better mind."<p>Can you expand on this? How does the program do that?

Spacecase ,<p>Sure thing will do my best to expand, the essence of the program from my experience, and I am not affiliated with it, is honesty. Couples exchange their thoughts and feelings in response to defined instructions and in a controlled setting. It starts off easy and as you might expect builds in intensity. The couples there as well as the presenters have had the widest range of experiences from adultery to physical abuse to drugs and crime you name it. There is a whole lot of healing going on,you can see it in peoples faces and in their demeanor as the weekend progresses. Some couples take off and as the follow up sessions occur beging to drop out. You can almost predict who they are going to be, it is kind of "an are you for real about this experience, if not don't waste any more time" and some people obviously come to that conclusion, but as I suggested to Conan that has value in and of itself. I don't think thta completing the program is a gaurantee that your marriage will be saved but they have some good numbers going for them. Hope you try it.<p>Jack

Thanks Jack; no issue with our being Jewish, is there?

Spacecase, <p>No there was at least one Jewish couple when I went and I have recommended the program to another good friend of mine who is Jewish. He is "spooked" that there will be a priest there for part of time but I told him that the priest confines his remarks to why his church considers marriage a sacrament and some other stuff about love, fidelity, etc. He mentioned how he had a vow he keeps and a marriage of sorts to his church that he devotes himself to. It was totally harmless and not any kind of evangelizing.
Jack

Spacecase ,<p>PS: I noticed our data is pretty similar,married roughly the same time, 3 kids ,one in college.<p>Jack

Jack,
I doubt I could ever get my WW to go, (at least at this point) but I'm sure going to look into it. Hey, I'm here to save my marriage, and I'm ready to do whatever it takes!<p>So what's your story Jack? What's your "thread"?

Spacecase, <p>I logged on for the first time about a week ago, not too sharp at using a computer. I think my fits question was aimed at dealing with muy feelings about the OM, and I got a lot of good advice. Then I posted a draft letter about not being able to share my feeling of pain with my ww who has a good case of the lets forget it and move on syndrome. Got a lot of great feedback on that letter and then started wandering around the site chiming in once and a while, it feels good, and my therapist only seees me once every three weeks so I can uses more frequent support like this. My story is: married high school sweetheart after going steady and living with each other a few years, now married 25 years, three kids two teenagers one in college, ww started affair two taers ago with good buddy of mine whose marriage was coming apart. We kind of became a threesome,socializing and drinking, too much, on weekends, wife and I liked OM and had a lot of poor Dave conversations along the lines of how coudl his wife be so mean etc. A few months ago I accidenally discovered both my wife and dave lying about there whereabouts one afternoon and confronted my wife. I was and still am in a state of shock, belivfe you me my wife was the vey last person on earth I would have expected to do this, and Dave was a guy I trusted completely. Anyway wife ended it on the spot, no conatct excepta couple of overtures by Dave which were rebuffed. I went into full gear trying to save marrige, as much as I could barely stand the thought of what happened, I knew I loved ww and wanted to keep my family intact. The scandal in our community would have been ghastly also. So on DDAy I told ww we were going make it, recover, and go on, and she said that was what she wanted. Retrovaille was a graet first step, we are in counseling too, and I have my own therapist, and of course you folks! I don't know how normal these aspects are but some of the things I consider most confusing to me are, first that my wife appeared to be very much in love with me throughout the whole time of the A, our sex life was sensational, we traveled, enjoyed family time, and entertained our friends including Dave, we seemed to have it made. Wife say she told the OM she loved me, could never leave me, and that I was the best lover. Told a close friend of hers who later told me, the same thing. Second was the amount of time the three of us spent together. Seemed to me that if you were carrying on with H's friend, or if you were the OM you would keep a distance. Unfortunately this aspect seems cruel to me now and impedes my recovery. But in a strange way I think they both needed me to do it, I can't figure out their thinking. WW said once. "I didn't want to exclude you." Haven't spoken to Dave, the OM. So it was bizarre. After all the reading I have done the nearest I can figure is that the whole recipe was there, ww was a quiet type who let resentment build, I was a let her alone type as long as we were together this long and the sex was great we must be in love, and Dave was needy and selfish, not to mention attractive. So I am plugging way, I think we are doing pretty damn well, I have the same fears as everyone else but I like to believe the stuff I read that says in the end your marriage will be better and stronger. I am on anti depressants and have cut down on the drinking and am hopeful. Thank for your interest and support.<p>Jack

Jack,<p>Just so you don't feel particularly screwed by your WW... my WW and friend also spent lots of time with me. My first D-day occurred on a night when we were all suppossed to go out to dinner together!! I even recall my WW getting mad at me because I treated the OM coldly one night a couple days prior to D-day No.1 when I had heavily suspected the A, but did not have proof yet. The OM came over with a few beers and was acting like sooo much my best friend... how the hell can people do this?!! How could my WW yell at me for being an anti-social guy when she knew she was having an A with OM?<p>I really think they must have a serious screw loose or get off on the fact that they can pull it off right under your nose. Either way it is sick and very painful to deal with. <p>Jack, I wish you the best of luck with your situation and hope your WW never goes back to this guy the way my WW has.

Sorry Conan, it feels like Jack and I hijacked your thread here, but I guess we're all in similar boats, so I hope all of it is useful to you as well.<p>I cannot imagine the pain of the OM being a friend, especially a close friend! Wow!<p>You guys are doing well, doing the right things, and my best wishes to both of you. I've gotten a lot of insight for myself from this and other threads, and I sincerely appreciate it.

Conan, <p>Oh I feel screwed all right,still have plenty of anger and numbing kind of pain. Sometimes I'll look at my wife and just think what a monster. And the friend, well you've seen what torture that is. I can understand affairs and accept that they happen, but sitting around the dinner table knowing all the while you are going to see your friend's wife the next day is just so sick to me I can't get it. The delight they must have had at my expense winking and whispering etc just haunts me now. At least Bill Clinton didn't ask Monica to accompany him and Hillary on Air Force One.<p>Jack

Jack,<p>That feeling that they really "pulled one over on you" is so painful, I know. The fact that they are still doing it to me is terrible. When I caught them the first time they were discussing how hard it was going to be for them to act nice when we were all together at dinner... yuck!<p>You hit the nail on the head when you said it was SICK!

Jack,<p>Very interesting development tonight. My WW says she wants to go the retreat weekend, but wants to do it sooner than July. This seems very encouraging... maybe things have soured with OM.<p>The odd thing is that I also just found out that she must have discovered the GPS tracking device I had put into her car and removed it. The PI's are stunned and say this has never happened in dozens of other cases. They think it would have taken an expert or a very diligent person looking for the exact thing to have found it. She has never said a peep about it to me... can you believe that?? I don't know what the hell is going on here.