This marks the beginning of the beginning for saving my family, my WW, and myself. I'm committed to doing it with God in control. I am taking a stand for my marriage, for the truth, and for myself, and I am committed to seeing this through for the sake of my 2-year-old daughter and an unbroken family. Here's my story:

I found out about two weeks ago that my WW had been having a EA/PA with the OM she met about a month ago. She has been alone for most of the last year due to my role as a company commander preparing for and deploying to Iraq. I have been trying to keep in touch with her as much as I can, calling about once a day. She's been trying to keep busy with her career and her pursuit of her dream of becoming a singer and songwriter, which I've financially supported, but not been enthusiastically behind her on. She is displaying a lot of the apathy about our marriage covenant, about what she is teaching our daughter, about how she may be hurting me, and about the fact that I cannot do anything about her actions while in Iraq. She chose to admit her actions to me, but she is still covering it up and I believe she spent last night with the OM. I have already discussed neglect for our DD and am trying to reiterate the need to protect her throughout this process. She seems disconnected.

So far I've spent a lot of my time trying to figure out what my WW is spending hers on, calling her consistently, praying and seeking God, trying to find out who the OM is and what he does, formulating a plan as best I know how, sending notes and gifts to demonstrate my love for her, and reiterating her responsibility for the choices she is making for us. She said that she wanted to begin working full time to support herself and I called her on it and told her she should begin paying for the cell phone she's been using the crap out of to talk to the OM and gossip with a friend of hers in Kansas. I'm contemplating closing the joint credit card and letting her choose how to spend her money, while still transferring enough to take care of the DD and keep the house they're still both in.

I'm headed home for leave in July and I want to set the conditions now and make sure that do whatever I can now to hasten the end of this relationship. I have determined the identity of the OM, I have a phone number for him and another for his business partner (love the internet). He is supposedly divorced with custody of his two children and a self-employed contractor who sets his own hours... Need some help with the next steps to take. I don't want a divorce and I don't want to succumb to the 358% increases in divorce amongst Army officers in the last 5 years...

Thanks in advance for your responses...

--------------------
sbmmal

BH 29 (Me)
WW 29
M: 07-20-2001; DD Age 2
EA/PA: 5/06 - Present
D-Day: 6-3-06
Deployed Since 11/05, Leave Due in 07/05
Home Forever and Out of Army 10/06...
Praying for Us and Seeking God Feverishly!!!

It's harder to Plan A from afar, but you can still show your stellar qualities as a loving, caring husband.

I think that emphasizing the need for responsibility toward your daughter is very good. It injects a much needed bit of reality into the fun fantasy of Affairland.

From your description, it sounds like you mostly need to keep on as you have been, and once you get home you will be able to take a much more active role in this. What you are doing now will put you in a good position to finish Plan A/go to Plan B once you return.

It doesn't sound like you have been, but don't bother discussing your relationship much. Just gently insert your own viewpoint if she says something you don't agree with.

WW: I want a divorce.
You: I don't believe divorce is the answer. What is best, is for us to work on our marriage.

WW: I never loved you. (or) I love you, but I'm not in love with you.
You: Remember the time we [insert happy memory]? I miss times like that, but I know we can be happy again, once you end your affair with Mr. Nogood.

Just keep redirecting fog into truth, but in a way it almost seems as if you are agreeing with her. You can read Orchid's Reverse Babble Thread for some great ideas.

Keep hanging out here, keep your strength up, and keep on praying. You can do this.

I don't have a lot of great advice for you but I did want to respond to you.

At times in my life I say why me? What did I do to deserve this and I feel a little sorry for myself. Then I read something like you wrote and I realize in some ways that I have got it pretty good!

It is people like you that make this country great. You put your life on the line to fight for the freedom everyone in this country takes for granted. You sacrafice so much and at such a high cost by having to leave your home and family and then you have to worry about your life.

I want to thank you personaly for your service to our country. I also want to tell you that there are a lot of people that have had the same problem that you have. A person I know got back from Iraq after a year and divorced. His wife had an affair. They had not been married long and no kids so he was lucky. He is now dating and he is very happy. It takes a while to recover from this.

You must break up the affair. To do this you must expose the affair to everyone and anyone. It is hard to do a lot when you are not at home but I would not enable the affair at all. I would certainly not pay for her affair in any way shape or form. Read up on plan A and there are others on this site that can give you better advice than I can.

Again, God Bless you and keep you safe. It is a shame that your wife is not being faithful to a true "Patriot" and instead is seeking out attention with a slimeball that is not fit to be mentioned in the same breath with you.

What do you know about the OM? Is he also military?

Welcome. First I would like to say thanks for your service in defending our way of life. Please tell your comrades that we support them and are grateful for their many sacrifices.

I suggest you secure your finances first. These wayward spouses can do some crazy things.

Have you exposed the affair to anyone?

My friend, I know what you feel right now, I was once on the same boat. Hold on, you started on the right move, keep on researching about the OM. Don't do anything that will jeopardize your future, consolidate your forces/resourses, start saving money, take care of your health especially. All your actions must be calculated, being in this forum is a great help, keep on reading! God is on your side. A long way to go, preserve your strength.

Do you have anyone here who can help in the meantime? Family, friends, her family ... Anyone who could put some pressure on the affair, and how she's taking care of DD, etc?

You said most of your time is spent trying to find out what she's doing -- is there anyone close enough to keep an eye on her for you? I hate to think that you'd have to be so distracted by wondering about her wherabouts in the dangerous situations you must face over there.

Any chance you can get emergency leave, and/or a hardship discharge/separation (it's been over 8 years for me, so I can't recall of the top of my head the requirements for those)? I see you're due to separate 10/06, but that's a long way away considering the problems you're having at home.

Is your chain of command aware of your situation? Your unit or base Chaplain could be a great place to start.

As others have said, engage family and friends to help - if for nothing more than to ensure your DD is protected and taken care of. Expose to those who don't know and might be able to bring positive pressure on your wife.

You might also want to seek out Mortarman (though he's got a very full plate right now). He's a solid Christian and former Army.

Finally, listen to the advice you get here - there are a lot of people who have been where you are and understand what you're going through.

And with God for you, I wouldn't get caught up worrying about statistics <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

not_so_you_neak,

Thanks for your support and response.

Love the reverse babble, but it is very difficult without the ability to interpret body language to figure out when she's being sincere. How much should I assume she's lying?

sbmmal

ihadenough

I'm working on the exposure plan and what to say to whom. I've already left a warning voice mail on OM's cell phone. Coward never answers the phone - must have something to hide... Planning on threatening to use the PA system in every home improvement warehouse store to call OM and his business out publicly. That should really piss off his business partner who is married - I think.

I don't want to go too broad for her sake, which is probably stupid.

Here's the list:
OM's Business Partner
WW's Maid of Honor/BF
WW's Business Partners
Our Mutual Friends (Couples) from Church
Our Mutual Friends (Couple) from her former Work
Next Door Neighbors (Married Couple)

sbmmal

Longhorn -

Thanks for your support.

I'm still researching to see if either he or his business partners are former military. Nevertheless, I'm sure that due to their proximity to multiple military bases their contracting business is supported by military folks who would be none too happy to find out about OM and his PA with a military wife. Should I use one of those PI services to find out more about OM? Which are recommended? Are you aware of any way to get local phone records for a home phone from the phone company or is recording the only way to do it?

sbmmal

Believer -

I'm putting extra protection on the finances and seeing more of a need to do so sooner than later. We just got done spending $2500 on her pursuit of her singing/songwriting career and I'm running a bit lean on the credit cards of late. May tell her to start using her own, put up another boundary like I did on her cell phone, and pull my name off that joint account without her knowing it.

sbmmal

noble1992 - Thanks for your sentiments and encouragement. I’m seeking God for strength and guidance hourly.

1 Corinthians 13:8 - Love never fails.

sbmmal

How do you know how much she's lying? It's the old saying, if her lips are moving...

It sounds flippant, but it's really not. One of the peculiarities of the WS is that they will not tell the truth if a lie will do. Even if the truth would have served them better. She will rarely, if at all, tell you the truth, so it's best to just assume she's lying and let it slide off your back.

Reverse babble still works whether she is lying or being sincere.

I would vote against the PA system - you were being facetious, right? Other than that, all the people you have mentioned are good candidates. Call those you are close enough to, to feel comfortable discussing it with them in person, and send letters to all the rest. OM's business partner should get a letter, just to keep a formal record of it for you. You are right, he will not be happy from the negative publicity.

Keep your eye on the goal, and understand that the chances are best that it will ultimately be you, and not your WW, who ends up deciding the fate of the marriage. Let that comfort you now, while she seems to be holding all the cards. It won't always be that way. Everything you do now is laying the groundwork for when you take back firm control of your life and everything in it, via Plan B.

If your name is on the phone bill, you should be able to get a copy of it. If not, try to create an online account with whichever company provides the service. Ditto with her cell phone. If there is already an account, it couldn't hurt to try getting in with her usual user names and passwords.

AmiWalsh -

Thanks for your support. It looks like you and your FWH are in R - congrats on making it work.

I'm going to contact one of my best friends from church who live nearby and have him and his wife check up on them. I told my WW that she may be neglecting our DD and I think that is sinking in. I'm also trying to get the phone numbers of our neighbors so they can let me know what's really going on.

sbmmal

brokenbird -

Emergency leave and a hardship separation is not an option for a company commander. I've had other soldiers who are faced with similar circumstances and I have been unable to get them all out of country. Leave is now coming and will be in God's perfect timing. Thanks for the verse as well.

sbmmal

ALL,

Thanks to all for your support. Here's an update on the situation:

I'm trying to develop the "right" exposure contact list for both WW and OM and to figure out whether her claims that "it's over" have any legitimacy. I was on the phone with WW yesterday and she said she wanted me to only call once a day since it was too intense. I offered e-mail as an alternative. She e-mailed me yesterday very late in the evening back home. I don't expect her to keep up on the e-mails and I think it will be an indicator. In it she said:

"I think that e-mail works well because it allows me to express myself without feeling pressured into "making a decision."" Cake eating statement if I've ever seen one.

"I feel horrible for ever hurting you and it is not my intention to continue to do so. It has been really difficult to hear your heart lately. This is due in part to a lack of trust based on past experiences and a desire to be allowed the freedom to make my own choices. If I were to decide to give our marriage a chance I would want it to be because I chose to do so not because I felt guilty enough to stay. I think that you probably feel the same way."

I spent some of my time looking over recent e-mails before the EA/PA began. We were making significant progress and getting closer, but the sky crashed down when I had to break the news to her that I might not be able to come home on leave. We had been planning a trip to Europe initially, then scaled that back, and then there suddenly weren't enough slots to get out of Iraq. The problem has since been remedied, and I'm able to get out in less than a month for leave. I’m still trying to set the conditions for her to move from active A to aggressive R before I come home. Is it naive to think that I can get her unplugged without being there? We don't have any family out in WA, and she's got a whole new pack of friends since she left our church and went to a new one. Our old friends are on the exposure list and I will call one of them in the morning to see if they'll swing by the house and pick her up for church since she already said she'd be going back.

I have been trying to remind her that she has all the free-will that she wants to exercise, but that she still has to be responsible about the choices she makes that impact our family. It is a hard balance to strike, since I get the feeling that she's not being altogether honest with me. The finances are beginning to be a concern - she booked a timeshare in Vegas without consulting me yesterday and I'm not sure it was for me, although she said it was. She claimed that she thought it would be good for us to be more "spontaneous" and drop everything for a trip to LV.

Responsibility is sinking in a bit though. She's finally working on her business and trying to get money from deadbeat clients who haven't paid. I asked her whether her sudden drive to go full-time was a result of her wanting to see if she could do it on her own. She said yes and I applauded her initiative (reverse babble) and said that I've always hoped that she could let me be a stay at home dad. Her one desire used to be and probably still is (outside the fog) to be the best mother she could be and not need to use daycare for our DD. She's a marriage and family therapist of all things.

I'll let you know how things are going. She, the DD, and the cat are all sick. Tonight's call was weird at the end once I shifted to talking to her about the realities of our finances. She immediately wanted to get off the phone and my initial suspicion was that there was another call coming in, but I couldn't discern the call-waiting with the crappy connection. I told her I wanted to pray with her and she almost kept insisting to get off... We were able to pray, but I could tell she wasn't really into it. She also forgot about father's day for me... A real kick in the nuts, but an indicator that she is still wandering in the fog.

I'm going to write her an e-mail to encourage the plan for us to go to Las Vegas together now that she's made the arrangements. More reverse babble, but also an opportunity to seize on the truth and keep myself in the fight.

I was being facetious about the PA system at the home stores, but I think about that with a smile and I even developed a PG version of the script as a bit of comic relief for myself after an evening of praying, worshipping, reading other stories of Plan A successes, balling, and re-focusing.

I can't lose focus on my marriage or my troops and the responsibilities I have to both are immense. However, right now, my marriage and family is coming first and my guys are going forward into the wilderness with God's grace.

1 Corinthians 13:8 - Love never fails.

My friend, I would like to remind you again that you must keep your cool evrytime you talk to your wayward wife, in no case you threathen her, you are giving her ammunitions against you. In my case, WW filed a case against me with the assistance and support of the OM. Remember, at this period, assume that OM knew already that you discovered the adulterous relationship. Expect the worst, they will file a case against you, that is if they have the evidence, they will do anything that will protect themselves. Do not telegraph your punches. This is the period of gathering information and building up your intelligence. Remember Sun Tzu, know yourself first, know your limitations, up to what height you can manage your anger. I know it will be difficult to control your anger, especially to people like us who are exposed in combat. Take it from me, I told myself before, that I can control my emotions. But it proved me wrong, I went way beyond, threathen all those that I can threat, the result- case was filed against me. It took time for me to recover, I was the one investigated not the OM, I was the one placed in hot water and labeled as a wife abuser, etc. etc. But God is just, many Christian brothers came to my defense and help me recover my composure. They helped me a lot, they ensure that all my actions are checked, they even proposed decisions and did things for me. I wish I can share all my thoughts to you. This forum is not enough, how I wish I can share to you my experience... for me the this is the greatest battle I ever fought. It is almost 2 years now since DDay and I still fighthing, I am still in Plan B, still recuperating from the wounds I got when I was ambushed by the terrorist world of ADULTERY!!! Now, I take control, WW wife wants to come back but no way, she has to convince with overwhelming evidence...

Did you already tell her you got leave? Sounds like you did, but if you didn't, don't. Is there any way that your arrival home could precede when she thought you would be there, by a couple of days?

Anything is possible, and a lot depends on what stage her A is in now, but it is most likely that you will be fighting this still when you go on leave, and just as possibly, when you return. Prepare for the worst, just in case. I know you would prefer to have it wrapped up quickly in a neat little package, but even the shorter A's are generally longer and messier than that. This is truly a war, not just a short set of skirmishes.

You may have to allow for more time, just because you are doing this long distance, but time is on your side. Nearly all affairs end eventually - statistics are on your side in that one - and you are setting up in the best possible way for a recovery after that happens.

noble,

So far so good on keeping it cool. I'm doing what I can to use brains instead of brawns and keep this fight at the strategic level. No one needs to be bothered by the bloodshed and tears that way. Just one objective at a time to win this strategic war. I think her comment about it being "intense" for her is because she's trying to juggle so many relationships at once and because I'm so overt with the "I am committed to loving you, but I feel like you are disrespecting our family, the marriage covenant, and neglecting DD..." statements or discussions about the financial situation and the support I have provided her to pursue her dreams. As a company commander, I've learned from the mistakes of my soldiers where my rights end and someone else's face begins and that threats of the use of physical force will serve no strategic interest here...

I appreciate your advice and I've already taken precautions since my wife is so quick to use the "verbal abuse" card at the most insignificant argument or change in tone. I think that's why she told me, she expected me to explode, as we have some history in the issue of infidelity and the wrong responses from during our engagement and a previous year in Korea, and I explained to her how much it would destroy me if it happened again while I was here and that it would be over... She has admitted that she "wanted me to pull the trigger" in her fog and keep her from getting messy... I praise God for my composure and for being able to keep my eyes on the bigger picture.

1 Corinthians 13:8 - Love never fails.

sbmmal

NSYN,

I did, but I haven't brought up the date to her since the day after D-day when it probably didn't sink in. I've since left it vague with everyone I've talked to and called it "a matter of days" or "early to mid-July" since it really isn't a real guaranteed timeline. The Air Force is not really running a tight schedule here in Iraq. The kicker on this whole thing is that I had planned on suprising her in CO by flying her out to visit my family and then just showing up... that is before D-Day happened. If she only knew what a hopelessly pathetic romantic I was. Well she's finding out now...

I have no doubt that I will still be fighting this when I get home. I'm not going to have her pick me up at the airport, because I want some time to snoop around a bit before announcing my presence. I'm gonna have to be creative about my phone calls and e-mails during that time because I don't want to telegraph my presence. Plan on blaming it on some maintenance problems with A/C...

I called and exposed to a church friend on his father's day morning... What a pal I am, huh? It was good to get it off my chest to someone outside the relationship conflict. Freed me up to focus on staying positive when I talk to her. She'll be pissed I'm sure but I think she'll see it for what it is (or continue in the fog). Also telegraphed it to my brother and father without using the A word... again, what a guy on father's day! My dad was very upset and he was nearly in tears about it when I got off the phone. It is so unfair in everyone's mind, which is good to know. Especially after I told him we'd been attacked the other day by dud munitions that lawn-darted in our work areas... I think that may be sufficient pressure to put on her for now. I'm still holding OM's business partner, and WW's business partners, bride's maid, and neighbors in reserve for when the current strategy isn't working or when it suits me to get NC out of OM.

Sent flowers to sick wife, e-mailed a couple's devotional to her, bought her and I matching marriage enrichment books for later delivery, found a marriage seminar in CA that could be tacked onto or into the "spontaneous" LV, NV trip during leave, going back to the room to work on recording DVD bedtime stories for DD, changed all the online banking passwords, and I am not calling her today until after the dust settles and everything else has happened. Feeling grateful God has given me peace and that I found Plan A - the strategic war plan for saving my marriage.

1 Corinthians 13:8 - Love never fails.

sbmmal

I'll be praying for your marriage AND your troops.

Since she is a marriage and family therapist, I suggest you tell her about this site. You are not home, and maybe she would get some good ideas.

I am glad to know about your composure, at this point, you are far off better than me when I was in same stage you are in now. Find time to read God's word especially on peace and love. You need God's presence every hour (me, I found refuge in the song, "I Need Thee Every Hour"). I know you will win the war, keep on fighting for your marriage. Your on the right track. Keep on reading, ask anything if you are unsure of what would be the right actions to implement. Feel free to ask advice, we are here to help.

SB, I don't know if exposing to military authorities because the OM's business sells to on-base activities will be effective. I suspect it's too tenuous a connection to make any difference to the local commanders.

Your list did not include your pastor or priest back home. Don't just expose to church members; let the church leadership get involved too. You might also add your in-laws to the list. It's a crapshoot getting much support from in-laws. Sometimes you gain powerful allies in smashing the adultery, sometimes they take a hands-off approach, and sometimes they assume the attitude they must be there for the wayward one, no matter what he/she has done. It never hurts to try though.

Where does your wife work with any partners in her business--or co-workers? Did she meet this OM in the performance of her job? If so, consider exposing to her partners and/or co-workers. They can place enormous pressure on her.

Is she a member of any professional or social associations…anything from the Women’s Club and Junior League to the PTA? Any organization in which she values her membership and whose goals and guidelines include high moral standards is a valid target. The rule of thumb is to select people and activities that you can reasonably expect have the ability to put some pressure on the adultery, even if it’s by way of nothing more than a disapproving glance.

How old is your daughter, btw. My youngest was 4-years-old when my WW began her infidelity. My daughter remembers it clearly today. Unless your daughter is an infant, do NOT expect she’s missed what is going on.

Don’t make your selection of exposure targets based on your wife’s potential embarrassment or her desire to be able to hold her head high in these individual’s presence. She brought this upon her own head. If she suffers anything, it is because of the adultery, not the fact that it is no longer her nasty little secret. In short, do not shield your wayward wife from the consequences of her adultery. It’s not productive and it’s playing into the hands of these partners in adultery. If they can keep their secrets intact, the adultery can continue.

If you have the resources to hire a private investigator, you can find out enormous amounts of information in a short time. I don’t know where your wife lives, but costs for a PI vary wildly from one locality to another. Most of the PI’s are online though. You can easily find plenty of them in your wife’s area.

There’s another angle from which you can hit this problem, based on where your wife is. Some states have “alienation of affection” laws still on the books. In such places as North Carolina, it’s possible to file a lawsuit against the OM for such alienation. If it’s possible where your wife is, I suspect OM’s business partner might also be interested to learn about that. They don’t have those laws on the books here in Texas though. On the other hand, PI’s are cheaper here, particularly here in San Antone. Everything is a compromise, I suppose.

Anyway, consider a wider exposure, okay?

As far as coming home to surprise her…sir, you might be letting yourself in for a scene that can flare out of control faster than spilled gasoline will from a lit match. As much as I like the TV show “Cheaters” where wayward spouses are busted on nation-wide television, you coming home in the middle of an afternoon to see what’s going on in your home is too dangerous for you, your family, and your career. Please don’t do it. Resist the temptation. It’ll almost certainly create more problems than it solves. FYI, I’m a retired AF E-9 and an Army brat. I’ve been around military personnel my whole life and I’ve seen too much of what happens in this circumstance. Don’t put yourself in a position where a temper you thought you had under an iron grip can ignite, okay?

I do not favor telling your wife about this website at this time. For now, you need this place as a refuge. Later on, when she has committed to recovering the marriage and her relationship with you will be soon enough.

Hang in there, SB. This whole thing sucks but you can get through it with a marriage intact and better than it was before. You personally will come out the other side sane and whole, no matter what. I know this because everyone here at MB has done it. We’ve all experienced this and have recovered. So will you.

Even if he does not pop into the house unexpectedly to see what is going on, and just lets her know when he is there in town only a few minutes away, it is going to blow her poor WW mind, not having any mental preparation to get her ducks in a row.

And an off-balance WS a good thing, relatively speaking.

I fully understand, NSYN. Confusing the alien's mind is a good thing more often than not and I don't have a problem with a very short warning period. However, I don't think an exhausted man operating on a severe sleep deficit (it takes a LONG time to get back to the real world) and just out of a combat zone needs to be confronting a scene that will have lasting ramifications down the line.

If you even called her to say you were in town, but spending the night in a motel to clean up and sleep before meeting her, she would absolutely flip!

It really doesn't matter if she sees you right then: just knowing you're back in town and she had no warning is going to fry her circuitry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

A favorite song for you on Father's Day
if you have speakers on you computer you can even sing it to yourself!

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/e/jesuswaf.htm

God is with you, I see you know that. He will reveal His plan in this mess; He is a God of restoration, healing, comfort, and love.

MSA

Longhorn, believer, NSYN & MSA,

Thanks for your support and for the advice you've been giving me. I called WW this morning after cancelling the credit cards (I'll talk about that in a moment) upon discovering another $200 gone overnight to Target. She had just come from church and I think she was pretty convicted by the message, which was about relationships plateauing and the only wat break to the logjam is to press in for a closer relationship with God. She said she felt like God might be telling her to "give it another chance..." She was feeling very ill still and said that she was exhausted. I told her that I wished that I could be there to help her out and take care of her and DD. This led into a discussion along the lines of how she didn't think she'd ever get help from "men" or know what she'd do if it were offered. Silence (frustration) on my part. I the told her that there are more people who wanted to help but probably didn't know or didn't want to intrude. I told her to be open to family, friends, and neighbors that offered assistance. Apparently the neighbors "hate" her and her dad isn't talking to her just now...

I got some new insight from that conversation. One - that "men" are not giving her the support she needs, which I took to mean that OM is letting her down in her time of need. YEEHA! Two - that a lot of this may be spurred on by the enormous weight she is carrying by herself raising DD without a father/husband, family, or friends to support her. All the more reason why I'll be glad to make some more exposure/accountability calls to church friends who could reach out to her and hold her up to her better self at the same time.

I also asked her about whether she'd talked to our worship pastor at church. She's been talking about the importance of getting some vocal coaching and being able to serve on the worship team again. She left her demo CDs and some of her unfinished tracks with him and will likely be contacting him in the near-term to get them back. He may be a really important exposure/accountability ally that I'd overlooked and you've reminded me to think about Longhorn...

I've mentioned this site to WW in an e-mail, but she doesn't read them now anyhow. I doubt she'd find the forum or my thread, but even if she does it'll be in God's timing... likely at the end of this process. I hope I'm not wasting my thoughts or time drafting e-mails she'll never read. I've also decided to read them to her on camera and send them on DVDs as a way to connect. Up to her I suppose. Either way keeps me engaged in the fight and thinking I can make a difference from the other side of the world. Best thing is that for whatever reason the mail is going about twice as fast as it used to back to the states.

A word on the finances - A little doubt creeping in here. I'm not sure that cancelling the credit cards was such a hot idea, despite it being a part of the plan to protect the family finances. I'm thinking that she'll take it badly when she finds out and claim I'm not supporting DD, even though I already told her that I'd continue to transfer funds to her account for DD and pay the bills for the house. I can't just let her blow hundreds on nothing without being able to trust that it's for legitimate reasons, right? Besides, she'll likely try and put the cell phone bill on the CC anyhow... Am I crazy here?

Mrs. STOWaway - Thanks for your encouragement this father's day. I spent one of my hardest sleepless nights after D-Day reading a printout of the entire thread between you and jaysmom. I listened to MercyMe's "Never Alone" and wept more than I have in years. It was the most valuable time I've spent thus far because God showed me how important it was to continue to pursue Him and to never lose focus on the blessings He has given us and wants us to enjoy. Thank you for your steadfast support and encouragement of the lost, dumbfounded, and betrayed on this site.

1 Corinthians 13:8 - Love never fails.

sbmmal

sbmmal -
I am blown away by God so often. That thread hanging out there being a help to you, what an encouragement...
thanks for making my day.

You and your family will be in my prayers.

MSA

Thank you for the prayers. God works in mysterious ways - I'm thankful that he works...

I'm trying to discern where things are right now. I feel like my WW might be telling me the truth that things are progressing to an end with OM, but I have no way of knowing. There are phone records from the other night that indicate she probably left a voicemail on OM's phone and then she called her friend from KS. I'm working on a project for her and I'll probably give her a call this morning when I get it done, as she was scheduled to take DD into the doctor's for an appointment.

Need encouragement and some motivation to continue the fight with the same fervor...

Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8.

sbmmal

I heard that many times. "I'm just easing her away." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You cannot even hope to take it at face value, but it's not a bad sign, either. To me, she is saying, "I want to be a big old cake-eater, and have them both after me for as long as possible."

Upon first arriving here, I thought cake-eating was bad. It is, if you let it continue indefinitely (I know you won't). But the fact that she is doing anything at all to try and keep you on the string means that you still have her hooked, as well. When the time comes to cut off the cake-fest, she will miss you terribly.

That is why it is such good news; since she is not fully detatched, you're ahead of the game. You just have to keep her attached, which is easier than getting her attached.

Keep doing what you're doing, but save as much strength as possible for when you're home. Dealing with a WS 24/7 is very draining.

Does a deployment to Iraq constitute a permanent change of station (PCS) or is it just a temporary duty assignment (TDY)? (I'm using Air Force abbreviations, please adjust to Army lingo as appropriate. lol)

If it's a PCS, can you move wife home to where her/your family live for the support from others she seems to need?

Reference the credit cards: Is there a way you could have one reissued to her with a small limit on it. Better yet, if she were to apply for it on her own, it might give her some confidence.

Is your WW in individual counseling? She sounds like a prime candidate for some. Have you talked to the family support office back at your home station and asked them to reach out to your wife? I don't know where they are staffed in the Army, but in the Air Force, they're generally combined with the personnel office functions. The chaplain back at your home station could be someone to ask for assistance too.

Stay in the fight, SB. You're at least beginning to communicate with your WW. Don't worry about whether she reads your emails or pays attention to phone calls, etc. She may not be ready to admit it, but every communication makes an impression on some level and each one adds at least a tiny increment more to the total. If I were you, I'd assume she IS reading them and just keep sending them saying what YOU want to get across to her. Don't expect any reaction from her right now though. She's not ready to give it. Sooner or later, though, she'll acknowledge what you're trying to say.

Hang in there, pardner.

All,

So the credit card thing blew up this morning. She's pissed that I cut her and DD off - that's how she sees it. I held firm that I was trying to do the best thing for our marriage and our finances given the information I had and the commitment to a prescribed plan. I told her that I didn't have enough information to be sure that she was really out of the relationship to base my decision about our finances on. In a way I think she's afraid that I'm abandoning her and what we had, holding the A over her head, and punishing her. I reiterated that I was still committed to the responsibilities I have for DD and our family, but that money was tight right now, which it is.

I'm praying that this isn't the LB that it feels like it is. I want to trust what she's telling me is the truth. She told me it was over with OM. She didn't tell me until today that he made that call out of guilt from the voicemail that I left him, in which I implored him to do what is right and leave my family alone and intact. She got hot at me about that one and now I know why. I'm glad for whatever I said and for the burden God made him face. Now I have to get WW through withdrawal, which is where she is I'm almost certain.

I think that dispite some missteps today with the finances, I still made some points by having a buddy of mine come by the house and take care of the lawn while DD and WW were at the doctor's office. I reminded her that we have very good friends and that they want to see us be successful in our marriage. I'm thankful for good friends that are supportive of our family.

The deployment to Iraq is not a PCS, so moving DD and WW back to CO for more support is not an option on the Army dime. WW is not in individual counseling, but I am talking to her about going, because I am talking about going myself. I talked to my mom yesterday about DD and WW coming to live with them, but also mentioned that she is probably reluctant to move as she becomes depressed... She needs support as she begins withdrawal.

Thank God that the first phase is over and I pray that it remains that way... up to her.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for your continued support.

Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

I blew it. The finances thing was a huge mistake. I made her feel abandoned and I apologized profusely. She called a lawyer. It turns out that she and OM are not together in a PA anymore. Although I firmly believe that they are still in an EA. I found out that he is former military, hence the guilt about doing what he's doing to my family. I have discovered that I become a very controlling person out of fear and pride during a crisis. I need prayer and support to get over that. It's ugly and I don't think that I can save my marriage without God healing me of that tendency.

I need all the prayer you can muster as we are at a critical juncture and I need all the help I can get. Exposing to save my marriage and family with love and support from couples we know.

Okay...well, what's your plan to recover from this mistake? It can be done. Fix up a credit card with the bank for a limited amount or something, along with an abject apology for sending her the wrong signal by doing that.

Apples and oranges. Lawyers and whether they are involved physically or not. What do these have to do with each other, pardner? Also, an EA can be as difficult or more difficult to get over than a PA. I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Also, when a spouse is in the midst of an A, they seem to view EVERYTHING the BS does in the worst possible context. They can't see that you might be protecting yourself, it's all about THEM THEM THEM. Prepare yourself for lies from her about where she stands with OM, and what is the case one day can change the next. Her and OM's good intentions need to have some time behind them before you can trust them. Unfortunately, time is all that sorts a lot of this junk out. Affairs don't die as quickly or easily as we BS's think they do, or wish they did. When my WH called the OW "human crazy glue" I thought he was seeing the light. No way. Yes, I let him vent to me about her problems and issues. Yes, that was really hard. Yes, trying to be a friend to him instead of a defensive wife helped save our marriage...

Don't confuse exposure and steps you take to protect your finances vs. LoveBusters. A WS will make exposure and financial decisions seem like lovebusters because they will do anything to get you to back off and stop making them face reality.

Plan A the heck out of her, but it's okay to protect yourself, and it's essential to expose.

If she's interested in counseling at all, the Harleys are a great option for you guys with the distance issue once the A is over for sure.(phone coaching - when we counseled with Jennifer Harley Chalmers she lived in the Phillipines, I think she still does!) It's costly, but so is divorce. For under $1,000 we saved our marriage - heck that was the same as the retainer I paid my lawyer!

Praying for you -
MSA

IMO, as long as you didn't leave her without money for necessities, I don't see a problem with limiting her spending right now. Even if she is truly not with the OM - at this moment - you cannot trust her judgment. Too many BS's have found, to their sorrow, that their WS has racked up all kinds of debt while in the throes of their A. I am one of those, but am very thankful that almost all of it was in the form of cororate loans, and we had less than $2,000 to pay back (to the OW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />). Others have not been so fortunate, and have lost huge sums that will never be recovered.

Apologize if you think it will help, but deep down I hope you know that you did something difficult to try and protect your family, and did not act out of spite.

The suggestion of one card with a small limit (and to which you have full access of the bills) sounds like a good idea.

Longhorn, NSYN & MSA,

Okay, here's the deal: Today was crazy and I lost it some and panicked thinking I was going to come home to a divorce packet...

I explained my thinking behind the card shut-off and reassured her that I would still be covering her and DD. She cited our agreement to use the CC for all expenses, which I thought to myself as odd given the circumstances. I told her I was trying to protect our finances from the infidelity relationship. She cried trust fouls and got angry that I was following her spending and phone calls. Uncovering the truth IMHO. I told her that I had tried to consult her on the issues but had been unable to reach her, so I sent her an e-mail and covered the debits.

I found a number I didn't recognize on the mobile phone bill and called it. It was a lawfirm. She denies contacting a lawyer or taking steps toward a D. I made the decision right then and there to start calling everybody I knew would put pressure on the affair. I started with WW's BF in KS. I finally got her to agree to speak her mind about WW's behavior and I offered some accountability for her relationship with her H. I was then emboldened to contact OM and leave him a voicemail that pulled on his sense of duty, honor, country to execute NC with my wife. A bold step I think will help. I then called many of our friends and family, asking for support and exposing the A. I was discouraged by the response of one or two, but overall, it was a positive turning point I think.

WW sent me an e-mail since I couldn't get her via phone and told me she felt betrayed and angry... No shock. She also acknowledged that she understood my intention (to save the marriage), but that she was still mad. She'll get over it I'm sure. In the meantime, I'm considerign taking a wait and see approach to continued contact via phone. I'm starting to feel desperate. I'm sending DVD movies of my life here and it's taking a lot of time and effort to maintain this breakneck pace. After yesterday's fireworks, I think I could use the break for my own sanity. I appreciate the comments that what is needed is just time and time is what I have until July.

Thanks for the support of the financial decision. It is very difficult to trust her to have good intentions with anything right now. I'm hopeful that she really did arrange this Las Vegas trip for us and I'm considering merging that with a marriage seminar in CA... Anybody ever tried a Save My Marriage conference?

More to follow.

Great job with the exposure.

Don't exhaust yourself doing nice things. At least try to send her a short email each day (if you are able) letting her know you miss her, are thinking of her, etc., and send DVD's maybe once every week or two.

Small (mostly) but very consistently is your key, since you can't keep up a madman's pace forever. As in you can't send her flowers every day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're doing good.

I have been thinking about you saying this, about the control and fear and pride. These are very common feelings in the BS. I know I experienced them, and have seen it in others. The need to control, and fear about an outcome I couldn't control, turned out to be the biggest thing in this entire experience that changed about me. It was these feelings being so strong that forced me to finally surrender it to God. To trust that God had a plan for me, loved my DD's, loved my WH, and that things would work out if I trusted God and gave up my desire to control and plan everything.

I ultimately surrendered my own will to God's will - I deterimined that if I was going to have to sell the house, move into an apartment, divorce, and couldn't save our DD's from OW and the A, then I would have to trust God to protect us all and turn it to His plan for us. It was after that surrender, that commitment to God that I would have faith in Him and not worry, that I developed a peace about the situation. Only after that (much after, it seemed at the time!) did things start to turn around.

MSA


[color:"purple"]
Matthew 6:25-34
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.[/color]

I copied the e-mail I sent to exposure contacts, family, and friends for you all to be able to understand where we're at right now. I had a good conversation with her tonight and she basically said it was over, that she couldn't love me or trust men ever again. That the affair wasn't the issue and that she's resented me to the point where her heart is cold and dead. I believe that love never fails, but I know I've broken my own wife's heart and that is a hard pill to swallow. Up to her to run the ball and make the call now, but I think I have her attention and I will continue to show her love as well as I can. I will also begin seeking professional assistance with the control issue so that it doesn't become the death blow during my return home. Anyhow, here is the e-mail.
____________________________________________________________
SUBJECT: Revelations and Request for Continued Support
To our family and friends,

Okay, now for the rest of the truth as I am just now coming to understand it clearly. I have been a controlling husband during our marriage. I am guilty and God has convicted me to fix it immediately or lose everything I love in my life - my wife, my family, and my marriage. Control is the enemy and antithesis of trust. I love my wife more than anyone I have ever known, but instead of trusting (WW) to make the right calls for her and our marriage by being herself, I have periodically tried to control her and our relationship through critical words and unloving deeds that have left her defeated, empty, emotionless, hurt, and extremely resentful toward me. I have work to do for myself in order to relinquish control appropriately, for her in order to help her trust and love again, and for our relationship to reflect the image of God as a husband and father if we are to have a chance to succeed as a married couple and as a family. The first steps are to acknowledge the problem, humbly request forgiveness, and encourage others to hold me accountable for my actions going forward. That’s where you all come in - nothing broken in darkness can be fixed until it is illuminated. What’s needed now is your prayerful support of this process, your loving encouragement of our individual struggles, and your steadfast commitment to the marriage you pledged to support when we were married nearly five years ago.

I thank God that (WW) has endured to this point and that we are still married through this year’s deployment to Iraq. She loved me just enough not to destroy me or jeopardize my life with a divorce just prior to my departure. I count it as a blessing that I have since had the opportunity to begin learning how to truly trust in God for the protection of my soldiers, my family, and myself, and now I count it as a blessing that I have 4 months remaining to trust Him to become the husband and father I am supposed to be in Him before coming home to do just that. (WW) has asked for some time and space to consider the possibility that I can and will change. She has been inundated by the calls of support and concern that she’s received in response to my requests for your support of our marriage and family. She is grateful for the love and grace you have shown her and for your support. Thank you for responding to my request and for reminding her of just how much you all love us. I would ask on behalf of (WW) and (DD)’s precious time together that henceforth if you want to contact her with support you do it via e-mail more than with phone calls. She reads her e-mail daily and her e-mail address is above. We are both committed to being great parents to (DD), but everything else is subject to the swift resolution of the controlling behavior issue that has plagued me during our marriage. It is a critical period for us both and we will need every bit of prayer you can muster. Pray for me to overcome my tendency to be my wife’s commander and not her interdependent husband and friend. Pray for her to be able to trust me again and open her heart to the possibility that God can and has changed mine. Pray for continued safety for all of us in this period of separation. Thanks in advance for your continued support of our marriage and family.

I have copied links to three of the articles that describe the situation in our marriage and the better than I can.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5043_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5043b_qa.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5055_qa.html

All I am and will become in Him,
(sbmmal)
____________________________________________________________

MSA, NSYN - Thanks for your support. This is really hard at times, but God is ensuring that I am never alone...

Well done!

A recovery is contingent upon BOTH spouses becoming aware of their own needs and their own shortcomings. Have you read up on MB about the Giver and the Taker? It's a great explanation of the struggle we all have within us in a relationship.

I am confident that by learning to meet each other's emotional needs, and eliminating LoveBusters, that you and your WW can get through this - you both need to be accountable for your actions within the marriage. Right now it seems you are feeling very responsible for the state of the marriage. That is valuable stuff, and important to recovery. However, I would caution you that she broke her marital vows by becoming involved in an extramarital affair, and she cannot blame that on the state of the marriage, though it helps to explain how she chose for that to happen.

For it to not happen again, she must take responsibility for the extraordinary pain her unfaithfulness has caused you -- problems in the marriage don't justify cheating. I don't say that to advocate bitterness toward her in your heart, or for you to hold it over her head, but it is an important prerequisite for forgiveness and moving forward I think. Hopefully that component will hapen in time in her heart, with your changed behavior.

My continued prayers are with you and your family,
MSA

MSA,

Even though I know my WW has not yet read the e-mail I sent to her, I got really angry last night thinking about it because I told her all those things, then wrote them for public consumption "on the record" and I feel very vulnerable to having it held against me. While I agree with both your sentiments, that taking responsibility for me is important and that holding her to the covenant we have in marriage is important, I am at the end of what I have to offer her for the mistakes I've made. I have been a good husband, a solid provider, a good father, and my intentions have always been pure - to love my family with all that I am. That doesn't seem to be good enough. However, I am learning that all that I am is nothing compared to all that I am becoming in Christ. All that remains to do is to continue to focus on improving that. Nevertheless, it is frustrating to hear her reject all I have done for her and ignore my efforts to improve myself and our marriage over time.

It is very hard to do this when everytime you catch a rhythm and some momentum the Army calls and says - "Hey how about another life interruption?" She wasn't cut out for the military lifestyle, she's told me so and I knew it, but we met after I was already in ROTC and I couldn't get out. Since then I have been looking forward to the end of my contractual obligation in May '07, but which effectively means I'm done when I get home since I can't be deployed again, even for this stupid border thing, for six months. We decided together earlier this year that I should resign my commission for the good of our family and our sanity. Sort of like a POJA without knowing it. This was before finding out about the A. I don't think either of us could deal with the same heartbreak a third time. After this deployment I am getting out for good. No questions asked.

I've called on family for support and an outlet to vent. Finances are becoming a wreck for WW so the pressure increases. I'm asking for help from my parents to investigate and expose to the maximum extent possible while affording me plausible deniability. Mom will seize on that in a heartbeat out of her own curiosity now that I've given her OM's name and have explained my desire to gather evidence that would enable me to gain custody. I hate to say it, but I think that I'll make a heck of a politician one day in the not too distant future... I'm still on the level and I'm trying to expose the truth, so I think I'm okay, but WW would blow a gasket to know the lengths to which I am willing to go now to do so. Only because she is still being secretive, still lying, and still playing a bunch of people off of her as long as she can. She's got another love interest now I think. He's the director of the studios that she performed for at the most recent competition. It's getting pretty scary to see how self-destructive she's becoming. The end is not far off - I fear and I hope simultaneously.

Love never fails. 1 COR 13:8
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. MAT 6:33-34

sbmmal

It is always hard to see someone you love hit rock bottom - worse yet, NEED to hit rock bottom.

Take it as a given that she will not at all appreciate one thing you are doing now, and at any point in the future until there is no one else in your marriage but you and her. BUT!!!!! Your efforts are not being wasted, either. Try though she may, she cannot ignore them.

Your kind gestures when she deserves (and knows she deserves) only scorn are something she cannot ignore no matter how hard she tries. It shows her you are working to change, and it removes any justification she may have felt for having an A.

That puts tremendous pressure on A-world. Combine it with exposure, as you did, and you have a nice bomb on your hands. Now it's just a matter of time and patience. Keep on what you're doing, but gently not frantically.

Having your mom gather intel is great, BTW! Yes, your WW would be furious if she knew. That is because right now she thinks it is far worse for you to tell other people what she is doing (and - gasp - more awful still, to PROVE it...) than for her to actually do what she is doing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Just don't take it all personal-like. She is not in her right mind just now, but there is every hope that her sanity will return in the future. You are giving the two of you the best chance possible for that to happen.

NSYN,

Thanks for your support - it is difficult to watch this knowing that DD is also in the mix and there is nothing I can do but pray. An important step forward for my faith.

I latched onto your statement, "Keep on what you're doing, but gently not frantically." in the context of controlling behavior. I hate the fact that I am here in Iraq, but it has helped me to realize that control of anyone or anything is an illusion based in pride. It has taken me going to Iraq to understand who I am supposed to become. We go outside here and know that at any moment we could be blown off the face of the earth - talk about not having control over things... Anyhow, I find myself over-compensating for that with gestures, projects, gifts, and e-mails - in an effort to control my situation, which is out of my control.

I need to back off and let God do the heavy lifting, to keep myself from taking things personally, to give me a chance to work on ceding more control to him, to help me concentrate on the duties and responsibilities I have to the soldiers I'm deployed with, and to give her time to miss me some, without all the craziness that goes with the controller.

I'm doing a daily bible study e-mail to her that has been a really good forum for the open exchange of ideas and spiritual intimacy, which I anticipate she desperately wants but likely isn't getting from OM. This is the consistency part I'm going to focus on - that and the weekly DVDs. I shot a 5-minute clip last night at the MWR (morale, welfare, and recreation) karaoke night. I sang her Duncan Sheik's Barely Breathing. Until now I never really knew what the lyrics to that song meant - now I get it completely and wish I didn't.

We talked today after I called her dad and her BF's husband. Both conversations allowed me to explain myself, acknowledge my need and commitment to changing for the better, and remind people that accountability is a good thing in the context of marriage and families. I had a chance to remind my WW that we were still married and that she hadn't been honest about the smaller infidelities that had led to the big one she was in now. To the concept that we were still married, she responded, "How do you know?" and I responded with "I'm not stupid, I know you have contacted a divorce lawyer." It died there, because she had already told me that she hadn't. I know I am protected because I am deployed, and that I have the ability to suspend divorce proceedings until 90 days after I return, which gives me about 6-7 months to figure out how to be the husband and father I need to be.

She told somebody in our family that she still loves me, but that she couldn't trust me anymore. I attribute that sentiment as much to the product of my controlling behavior as I do to the fact that I exposed her infidelity to many people she'd rather not disappoint. She is still paranoid from that and she asked me if I'd contacted the neighbors again. They hate her apparently, but this is my barometer of whether something is still going on with OM.

Sorry for the rant. It's good to be able to vent and keep the record of the progress being made with me and the Plan A. I believe that love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8) and that if she still loves me, she will be able to learn to trust me again as I make the changes necessary to make our marriage better than ever. I thank God for MB and the support of everyone here. There is strength in the truth and in accountability, and both can be found here.

She does not trust you because she is untrustworthy.

You may need to remind yourself of that every day. It is not the controlling behavior, or anything else you have done, past, present, or future. A person who is betraying a sacred trust has no trust to extend to others.

Say it again.

"She does not trust me because she is untrustworthy."

The flip side of that, is that when she again becomes trustworthy, she will trust you.

NYSN,

Good point. She doesn't trust me because she is untrustworthy. Good to have another barometer of when we have moved from EA/PA to withdrawal.

Friends are continuing the pressure and my family has circled the wagons in support. I am now feeling a real uncanny peace despite the storm swirling around us. In a very strange way I am very thankful for the wake-up call and the timing of these events. It has been a catalyst to make long-overdue personal improvements and to take stock in what I have and what I love. We had both become complacent in our marriage, our faith, and our family in the months leading up to deployment and as a result we both became very independent of one another.

Fortunately, and she cannot deny this, when I arrived in Iraq and surrendered my life, we really began communicating and connecting again about our marriage, our family, and our lives. There was a profound realization that occurred when I had to contemplate writing "the letter" that would tell her I wasn't coming back. I still haven't written it, but I think that it would be a good exercise for me to complete.

Thanks for your continued assistance.

sbmmal

SBMMAL, I must ask: Have you ever physically abused your wife?

Sir, I would caution you against internalizing this statement (or any statement) made by NYSN: " [color:"red"] She doesn't trust me because she is untrustworthy. She will begin to trust me when she becomes trustworthy. [/color] "

If you have read and understood any of the info on this site, these statements are patently absurd. When your spouse stops trusting you it is probably for a good reason. People trust when it is safe for them to do so, and they trust when they are shown that they can do so. You yourself began to admit why she has negative feelings about you. Taking all of that into consideration, do these statements make one bit of sense to you?

As I read this thread, I was saddened by your situation and then happy that you began to try to see your role in it. I saw that you were willing to address the issues and willing to move forward by making changes.

What I have also observed is NYSN attempting to push you towards blaming and resenting of your wife. I see NYSN capitalizing on your self-admitted need to control your spouse-which is something that contributed to your current situation anyway.

You should consider the messenger and think about why NYSN would speak to you this way, as well as why he / she may be SO interested in what is happening with you & yours without offering ways to obtain a positive outcome. To put it bluntly: When people want to "help" you or offer "input" / "advice" beware of those who will want to see you fail because it confirms that their own failure was normal and valid. To be blvery blunt NYSN's posts seem quite negative. Please BEWARE.

A bit about me: I am former Navy. My husband is USMC active duty preparing for a 12 month deployment to Iraq. This will be his third trip to that place. And-as in the past-I will be waiting for him when he gets back.

CS,

To answer your question and respond to your feedback, allow me to say first that I am reading much more into the MB site than to the feedback I get from this thread. The purpose of this thread for me is to record my response to the affair, to have a sounding board for my own Plan A, and to find Godly counsel from people like MSA who want to see my marriage reconciled.

On the question of physical abuse, the answer is NO. I have never raised a hand to my wife in anger. I don't drink and I am not a drug user. Physical abuse is not the issue. The issue is that I have been overly independent and tried to control the uncontrollable in my life without the assistance of God in my life or my decisions. My goal now is to realign my life with God's will for it, to save my marriage, and to become the best husband and father I can be with Him in the lead. Getting out of the military and refocusing my life in accordance with these priorities is the solution to my side of the problem.

Nothing NYSN could say would push me towards blaming and resenting my wife. We were both broken in the same way, we abandoned our walks with God and struck out on our own independent paths and that sinful pride manifested itself in two different forms in us.

As for whether the statements she made about trust make sense, I will answer with the MB standard answer when a WS is still wandering through the fog: she's justifying the behavior, she's lying, she's hiding a significant portion of her life from me, she's bought her own new cell phone to talk to her boyfriend in front of my DD, she's telling my family that I've cheated on her (never ever), and that I've abandonded her financially (she's living in our house with a paid mortgage and full utilities provided with my DoD paycheck). So when I think about someone who is untrustworthy I can believe that they wouldn't have a whole lot of trust if they don't trust themselves to make the right decisions on a daily basis. I am still standing for my marriage and my family, doing what I can do and allowing God to do what he needs to do with me.

I am curious about the history of the posters that give me advice. I've done a lot of reading on posts by MSA and I trust her advice because she's seen it through to the end that I desire in my marriage and helped multiple people do the same. I don't know NSYN's history, but I do think that her advice is consistent with MB concept of a WS in the fog and that she understands the current situation with my Plan A and my objectives clearly. The bottom line she said which rings true is that when she begins to be trustworthy again she will trust me again...

Thank you for your concern and for supporting your military spouse while he deploys in support of this struggle. I'm curious what brought you to MB as I noticed that these were your first two posts? I pray that you and your husband during the upcoming year to remain close and enrich your marriage in awesome ways.

Thanks again for your note of caution and for asking the 500-pound gorilla question everyone wanted to know the answer to. It remains no and will forevermore.

I don't have the time to respond to this right now, as I need to spend time with my husband before he leaves for work.

However, here is the link to my story.

Admittedly, I am struggling a bit within my own self right now. Tomorrow will be one year of recovery, and that is definitely one of the standard rough spots.

That does not change that I am, overall, happy in my marriage, and 100% certain that we are recoverING.

All the best, sb, and of course you are always free to disregard my advice, or anyone else's, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm curious what brought you to MB as I noticed that these were your first two posts?

I have visited this site in the past, and I did not know there were forums. I began reading out of curiosity and I replied to your thread because you are military, like us.

I read your story and I could not continue reading it. I am sorry. I do not want to appear to be judgemental, but I could not fathom the lengths you went through to stay with this man.

I am hoping that he did not pass any STDs to you. The incubation for HIV can be 5 years.

Cinnamon - Thank you for your curiosity. However, you need to understand that these threads, including my own, are designed to help people reconcile broken marriages suffering the pain and betrayal of infidelity, not for mere bystanders to gawk at. I hope you will continue to observe my Plan A without the criticism you have shown to NSYN in your fourth post on MB because I intend to turn the other cheek about a thousand more times before I am ready to give up on marriage to my wife and an unbroken family. NSYN successfully recovered her wayward spouse before her situation led to divorce and destroyed an entire family and lives in the process. Her story is encouraging to someone in my position because I have seen yet another example of how humbling yourself before God and living in faith that what you were doing would save your marriage and not lead to divorce, despite all worldly circumstances screaming to the contrary, can and does work. You've never been a mile in these shoes and I don't think you even have a concept of how difficult facing these circumstances can be or the lengths you will go to save your marriage and your family and yourself. Please stop being disrespectful on my thread.

NYSN - Your threads were very encouraging and I know you speak the truth from a terrible and simultaneously wonderful experience through the wilderness. Please continue providing insights when I go off course in my Plan A. I have saved your Plan B Letter to my HDD and I will be rewording it for my own use when I return to the states for good, if my best Plan A doesn't win her back before then.

I called her and left a message of concern about DD's ear infection and a gracious message about having a great day. My battle buddy in Christ and his wife sent her a message about saving our marriage and I am shutting up on the topic in anything other than our daily e-mail devotional to allow the full extent of the exposure to really wear on her. Today's devotional topic was Understanding Sexual Differences and I used it as a forum to explain how I'd shut that need off as if training for an endurance event prior to deployment which is why I became so emotionally numb and why she noted a particular decline in sexual activity prior to me leaving. She said she thinks that I was cheating on her. I also explained that this desire was not dead in me, but that due to communications (shared phone banks) I could not openly express this to her. I mentioned the benefits of married SF over just sex, which will likely not meet the emotional need she has for affection like she needs it to. I used the e-mail as an opportunity to connect with her about how we connect when we share true intimacy in the context of heart, mind, body AND soul. I reminded her of the more adventurous times and of what I know she loves. Then I capped it off with a lovingly concerned discussion about STDs and the dangers of becoming barren that she was putting herself in by not knowing. A little dose of reality on top of a reminder of the truth of our relationship. I know that she wants another child, or at least I know she did, and that she also will remember getting from another suitor and graciously giving an STD (clamydia) to me during her bout with infidelity when we were engaged and I went to Korea. Needless to say, unless she can do this before I get home in July, I'll be wearing a raincoat for SF I intend to share with her as part of my Plan A.

It was reassuring to read your thread and I'm thankful that believing is more fruitful than seeing. You and your mom are real characters and I am very entertained by your writing and immense poise under pressure. Your story gives me the confidence to stand up knowing that I've taken on all the responsiblity I need to for the conditions that led to this mess, but that I am not responsible for her actions. I now know that I need to more aggressively take the truth into the fog and have faith in God that he will reveal it to her perfectly, without committing LBs. Hard to know what to do when this far away and unable to see what's going on clearly. Takes a lot more faith than I have, so I'll work on that. Consistency and patience are what I'm learning from reading your post. She's already quite the cake eater and I think I'll reel her in a lot more between now and the end of my leave.

sbmmal
I am working to determine her most important emotional needs and trying to figure out how best to meet them during my leave and before. Any suggestions, please let me know.

SB,

Just to let you know, you are free to question my motives at any point, and I will be glad to respond to you on the subject.

In case you don't have the time or inclination to read my story, let me bring up the most applicable portion to what you are experiencing right now. (And you were very correct that what she is doing right now is simply justifications and rationalizations.)

My husband, when he was a WH, accused me of everything under the sun he could think of: lying, having him followed, embezzling from his corporation, committing adultery, etc.

None of it was true. I was completely trustworthy in every respect. (Not to imply having him followed would have been untrustworthy; I just had no need to do so, and was telling the truth about that.) He was the one sneaking around, cheating, lying, and all the rest. And because he was behaving in that way, he was unable to even comprehend that I was not.

That is such typical WS behavior, straight out of the script, they all do it to some extent, and it stops at or shortly after the beginning of NC. It is just like magic! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have sensed that you still have the common BS tendency to blame yourself too much for the A. I have addressed this indirectly in some of my posts, but perhaps was not clear enough for some.

Your controlling behavior, while it contributed to the state of an unhappy marriage, did not cause your wife to have an affair. Kudos to you for recognizing this as one of your personal difficulties, and taking steps to understand and correct it. Keep doing that.

All problems before the affair, no matter who started them, could be divided equally between both of you. Pre-A problems = 50/50 responsibility.

Once she chose to step outside your marriage, the affair and all its problems became 50/50 between her and the OM. None of the blame for the affair is yours. It is all the fault of the two people in the affair. You can, and should, blame her for the affair: it is half her fault. You should not blame yourself.

This realization is actually very freeing, once you internalize it. When you understand that you didn't cause the affair, and it is not directly your problem, it allows you to stop trying to control it, as if you somehow could.

You cannot control your wife, or her affair. You can only influence them, and you have been doing a superb job of that. You can also set to work to change yourself, admitting to your contributions to the poor marital state that allowed an affair to occur, and doing your utmost to correct everything possible about yourself....the one person over whom you actually have control. I see you doing that.

Just so you know, I do not want you to resent your wife. But, realistically, you will. Dr. Harley says resentment on the part of the BS is one of the biggest obstacles in recovery. I can attest to that from personal experience. However, just as with every other part of affair-busting and recovery, Dr. Harley has a very good plan for dealing with resentment, as well.

Every BS on this board who is either recovered, or recovering, has gone to great lengths to reach that point. This is a severely stretching process which no one can fully understand who has not been involved in it. It is long and hard, but has a great reward in the form of a newer, better, healthy marriage.

Take care,
Neak

And yet, oddly enough, you were able to overcome your reluctance and do it anyway...



Quite frankly, I can't fathom it either, and I'm her mother. But she did. And it certainly seems to have worked. She still has a husband, and 3 little children still have a father. And for others on this board who, unlike me (and apparently unlike you), are less ready to throw in the towel early in the face of such great provocation, and just give up, she is you_neakly able to encourage and inspire them in their efforts to keep on trying.

Her persistence has annoyed me at times, particularly when it has seemed like the object of her efforts so absolutely did not deserve what she was doing. But, in addition to the love I have always had for her, she now has my very deep, sincere admiration for achievement in the face of seemingly-insurmountable odds. For someone trying to recover and restore a marriage, there are worse examples that you could follow...than old Neak. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes to you both.

t&l

SB, thank you. Until Mom said something, I didn't realize that I had missed your last post, as I was still typing one of my own.

I'm just running out the door to VBS, but will respond when I have a chance.

Neak - Please keep giving sbmmal your excellent advice. I think all of us here who have been with you through your story greatly admire you. You did what it took to keep your family together, and to honor your marriage vows.

C&S -Hope you will keep reading. You will see some fantastic turn arounds. Most of us (before it happened to us) thought we would throw out the infidel and divorce. And some do. But the folks here aren't willing to just give up.

sbmmal - Keep your chin up. Prayers being sent your way.

Yes, I was...I am being honest when I say that the sexual hotel motel stuff truly disgusted me.

The danger of HIV is very real-yes, sex can result in DEATH-and sometimes you need to care for yourself more than you care to cling to an ideal. The man did not care enough about you to refrain from risking your life.

One year post-yuck does not a healthy marriage make. Again, Neak probably needs to have HIV tests every six months.

Women who stay with a man (and men who stay with a woman) "no matter what" do not serve as an inspiration; they serve as cautionary tales. Healthy inspirations are those folks who work together to solidify their relationship.

I am sorry if I offended anyone here, but I am simply telling you how I feel.

Glad to see you supporting those of us who believe in no test, no sex. You are absolutely right on about STD's. I believe Neak and her husband have done the testing.

Gawd-I hope so.

Again, that hotel scene really freaked me out.


(((Shudder)))

Apparently one person's inspiration is another's precaution. I guess each one has to choose which it will be.

t&l

It is your personal assumption that this is what she has done. Perhaps if you hadn't quit reading at the sordid motel stuff, you'd have a better idea of what actually went on, and why the marriage survived.


And the reason you know that they have not worked "together to solidify their marriage" is, precisely?

t&l

{{{{B}}}} Sure, I got tested first thing, and passed the second test also. Thanks for stopping in, and Mom too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SB, as I'm sure you have seen from reading here, you most certainly do not want your marriage at any cost. Continuing marriage to a WS over the long term will destroy you. That is the beauty of Plans A & B. By following them according to the way Dr. Harley has laid it out, when you finish you will either be poised for a stunning recovery of your marriage, or a stunning recovery of yourself, alone.

The marital recovery is more likely, but even though that does not always happen, personal recovery is possible 100% of the time.

Oh, and for clarity's sake, after re-reading my earlier post, I could see that it did sound a little good-byeish. I was merely intending to convey a finality on the subject, not farewell forever. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> So don't worry, I'll stick around for as long as you feel it's helpful.

My story is, for the most part, pretty standard around here. While there might have been a few deviations from the standard script, there are many many worse stories that still have had happy endings.

A large number of the unhappy endings are those who were willing to permanently settle for crumbs. Because that is all they asked for, that is all they got.

Steve Harley says one of the main causes for failed recoveries is the lack of a plan for recovery. It's not too soon to start looking into that, and deciding what you will need from her if the two of you are to recover. It IS too soon to talk to her about it, beyond mentioning that NC is essential to your future happiness as a couple. (And even that should not be too often or you will come across as nagging. Only say it if the subject comes up anyway.)

On that subject, kinda, while I think it is good that you chat with her, online or IRL, about the Bible studies, just be cautious not to come across too strong. I am surprised to hear that she is open to this at all, under the circumstances. That is a huge added blessing, but just be careful not to be too pushy, as until she is committed to NC and wants her integrity back, she will not be as open to spiritual things. (That's another of those little things to look for - when you see her throw herself whole-heartedly back into her relationship with God, that will be a good indicator of progress.)

I'm glad you had a chance to meet my mom - she's a character, all right! Drop in and chat any time you like on the feminine hygiene products aisle. We have men there too, like Still Seeking, and are occasionally honored by a visit from Aussie2, one of your Australian brothers-in-arms. In fact, only today he stopped in just as we were plotting how to best disable him so he couldn't be deployed again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Once your wife is in recovery, Aussie's wife, (oddly enough named Aussieswife) would be a very good friend for her. She cheated on Aussie while he was deployed, and you could not imagine a more loving or faithful wife now. Right now he is home, so we hear from her mum much more than from her, but when he is gone, she helps keeping the loneliness at bay by chatting with all of us. (They are several years into recovery, and completely in love with each other.)

Lots of interesting people here for you to meet with time. Under the circumstances, you really could not be in a better place.

My understanding is that this forum is not for arguing amongst ourselves when one person reveals their honest emotions / perceptions about something that was said.

And no-I couldn't move past the hotel motel panty planting etc.

And I cannot fathom why your daughter is under the impression that a "surviving" marriage is a desireable ideal.

The fact that you have to chime in to "defend" means that you KNOW something is wrong.

SB, I was under the impression that you were looking for marriage building help, not trying to place yourself in the middle of a cat fight. I'd like to contribute to your gaining the help that you seek by unilaterally withdrawing from all this hissing and spitting and letting your thread revert to its original purpose.

My daughter needs no defense from me, certainly not to those who don't know what they think they know, and care even less than they know, which I've already said is less than they think. SB, you carry on, and best of success to you. I hope you "fail" as well as Neak and her husband have, and are too happy, in the end, to know that you're really a miserable failure! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But maybe if you're lucky, someone will show up around then to let you know the "truth." And then everything will be fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I learned in the past two years more than ever that this is no small thing. Do not underestimate God. He is able to restore all things, heal the broken, and make what was so wrong right.

Genesis 50:20 As far as I am concerned, God turned into good what you meant for evil.

James 5:13 Are any among you suffering? They should keep on praying about it. And those who have reason to be thankful should continually sing praises to the Lord.

James 5:16b The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.

I firmly believe that praying is the most important thing I did during this whole ordeal.

I asked for God's guidance and received it, He led me through just the experiences I needed to come out changed, refined in the furnace, and empowered, and I daily lifted up my husband in prayer.

You will learn so much about God as you go through this, things you could have learned no other way.

Mrs. S, thanks for the verses. They are a good reminder to all of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, MrsStowaway for reminding me of that verse...

Where God intended for good what you intended for evil.

I read that during my Plan A and kept it close to my heart.

Like Neak and you said...a great deal of good was in a very dark, painful time.

LA

My Goodness. Where is your dog in this fight? WHat is YOUR story? Have you been affected by infidelity? Are you a troll? Are you posting under a new screen name Kinger?

Why do you have such an issue with someone who values marriage? who wants to stand against the great evil of infidelity and beat it because they love their husband and care about their family.

I don't get it.

Good for you neak.

DANG BigK, that was gonna be MY line, course, OBVIOUSLY I was gonna spell DAWG in the correct, South'ren, genteel manner-LOL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

CS...Step off!!! Neak is one AWESOME lady, with EXCELLENT advice to give...I just don't understand, why her? She is perhaps one of the sweetest MB members that I know...I don't get it...I smell something REALLY yucky here...

If you have something constructive or helpful to say, then do so...You said what you had to regarding STD's...That has now been officially ASKED and ANSWERED...If you need help with a situation, then ask...You did see the sign on the door here, right? It says MARRIAGE BUILDERS...If you've got something that pertains to the goal of Marriage Building, great, welcome...

In the alternative, should you just be feeling froggy and ready to jump, I AM AVAILABLE...Let's hop to it...Start a thread and call me out if you'd like...I am a FORMER WAYWARD SPOUSE, that should raise your hackles...(it does mine) I'll answer any question and/or take any shot ya got...BRING IT!!!

Mrs. W

P.S. Sorry for the threadjack folks...back to your regular scheduled marriage building

P.P.S. As a FWW, I can tell you that Neak's assessment of waywards here is SPOT ON!!! Listen to her...

There are many FBS here who have recovered their marriages...actually rebuilt their marriages from the ground up into what marriage SHOULD be. Some of them, besides Neak, have posted on this thread. So why the ridiculing of Neak for fighting to save her marriage?

Her FWH occasionally posts on the Feminine Products Aisle, and it is quite obvious that he absolutely adores Neak. He knows that he very nearly lost her, and he has done/is doing everthing required to rebuild their marriage.

Yes, there ARE some WS who never "get it". That is because of their own issues.

And, yes, there are OP who also seem to never "get it" and are harder to get rid of. The OP in Neak's life seems to be one of those, although she tries to be sneakier than most. Because of Neak's FWH's recommittment to her and their marrige, that OP is failing miserably. I imagine this FACT is causing her throat to close up and choke off the oxygen to what little brain she has left. Perhaps she needs some "Get a Life" mouthwash so she can GARGLE and thus kill some of that affair crap she has apparently swallowed.

CS, look around. Read the success stories. Mrs. Wondering and her H are a success story. Mrs. Stowaway is a success story. Even most of those who did not recover their marriages are success stories, because they will be successful in their future relaionships because of what they have learned from MB and put into practice in their own lives.

Neak managed to put an end to her FWH's affair quicker than most, probably because her FWH NEVER stopped loving her. So, why do you apparently find Neak's story more repulsive than any of the others?

T&L,



Thank you. That would be nice. Internet has been down here and commo has been a real PIA. I think God wants me to spend more time with him. Especially since MSA left me verses to focus on and a reminder that prayer is no small thing... it's the only thing.

You remind me of my mom. I'm glad you are here. I could use a nuke wielding woman in my life from time to time and I'm not sure I want to open my mom up to this thread just yet... I know she's packin' thermonuclear heat. I pray that this situation would be a huge witness to her and FIL, who are both non-believers.

Thanks for your continued support and I hope I'm as successful with my MB as your daughter has been. Keep up the posts and the prayers.

sbmmal

NSYN,



I spent a long evening last night reading a book called The Secret Message of Jesus. I got to a part that talked about the way He taught in parables about how to achieve the abundant life and how you have to be like a child to really be in a place where you can understand them - with the curiosity and wonder and humility to get it. It was awesome and I know what you mean. I will continue to pray feverishly, for blessings for my WW, for DD, and for OM - 'cause He says so.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

ALL,

Here's the story. Not much new to report, but a lot is happening at the same time. I just don't know what it all is. Now beginning to see the major impact of exposure on the A. MIL has gone to WA to be with WW, not sure if she was invited or if she just showed up. Helping with DD who has major ear infection... God? Indication from WW's old cell phone that OM talked to her FRI and tried to twice more near midnight before WW called Christian friends and exposure contacts of ours for what I can only assume was help... Oh yeah, WW also bought OM2 (EA?) a plane ticket with our air miles to see his daughter in FLA... She had asked ahead of time, but I didn't think she'd do it.

It is so discouraging talking to her because she's still so pissed about the exposure, and the fact that I'm trying to develop relationships with people back home who I've neglected and want to have as accountability partners going forward. FOG TALK SUCKS - especially when on the receiving end of it. She's so angry and so resentful. I keep turning it back to truth about love/marriage, family, and DD, but she gets worn out quickly and has to go. It's hard to know how to approach it and whether we're going the right way or the wrong way, but avoiding LBs at all costs and eagerly anticipating leave, but know God has plan to develop and equip me before then.

I think it is a time for solitude and calm before the storm. I'll be in the boat sleeping next to J... Happy for the storm and not missing the bigger point of all this. Devotional today was on training retrievers and how one particular breed needs to be beaten to learn how to do it properly, while others only need verbal rebuke to achieve compliance with their master's will. With my Master, I am still the thickheaded type and pain compliance is the only way to get through to my independent spirit. Working on that here and now so I can hear and respond to still small voice in the future.

Sent some sunflowers and chocolate to WW today and may call this evening. Whether she likes them or not, MIL will likely appreciate the gesture of thanks, as she is from KS. DD will probably eat the chocolate. Most of the DVDs are still making their way home, but the first one was well received by DD, who still remembers me as "daddy!" Thank God! WW very worried about what I will tell DD. I keep reminding her that DD will likely ask her when she needs to understand it. Praying that question will never need to come up and this all remains transparent to beautiful innocent DD. I love my wife and I want her back, I really don't care for WW or her selfish decisions, but I'm lifting her up constantly all the same.

Dad sent HELP cards to WW's side of the family on Saturday. He asked about what else to do. Mom working on making arrangements with a PI through a lawyer. She's a sneaky one and I love her for it. Not sure how fruitful that effort will be with MIL living at the house with WW now. Surely WW wouldn't deceive her own mother from through the fog, would she? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Anyhow, please pray for MIL in this situation, as she cried for about two days straight when she found out what WW had done... Firmly believe she's on the side of DD and I getting our mommy and wife back. She will need strength and power to speak truth to WW consistenly!!!

Thank you for the referral to Aussie2 and Aussieswife. If you have a link to their story, I could really use another pick me up...

Thanks again for all your support - keep it coming along with critical observations of where else I need to be working. Praying to become another shining example of the before and after advertising campaign for MB! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll see what I can find for you on the Aussies, and I'll sneak over to Mom's thread and put a shout out for them.

Keep putting this in God's hands. You can be guaranteed that He has a plan for this, and you will be given instructions on a need-to-know basis. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Let's see if I can do this without reanimating the ire of our resident pagan. Hm-m-m-m-m.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It is my opinion that, regardless of the eventual outcome of your marriage building efforts, you have an unsurpassed opportunity in this situation to witness to your non-believing family members, to allow them to see displayed in you the character and love of Jesus being lived out through the heart of an ordinary man. (No offense intended, but you are are an ordinary man, aren't you?)

The biggest, perhaps the only, restraint on my own thermonuclear device during my daughter's unfortunate brush with evil, was the knowledge that (a) my words and actions towards her husband reflected directly back on the Saviour I claimed to worship, and (b) that if she and he were successful in rebuilding and restoring their shattered covenant, what I had said and done during the affair would make it either easier or harder for the whole family to re-knit again. And it wasn't as if I didn't have PLENTY to say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You're probably right to protect your mom from too much inside knowledge right now. Maternal instinct protects and defends, sometimes wisely, sometimes not. Don't let her be tempted beyond what she's able to bear! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> But let your reaction to every provocation, thrown at you by this affair, be a shining light. You have a testimony that your life can give, no matter what.

t&l

T&L, et al,




During my struggle with my now XH, I never breathed a word of the worst of it all about my XH for that very reason. I did not, in spite of my own pain, want to do or say anything that would make it impossible for my H to come home and rebuild our marriage with the support of my family. It was very difficult for me to not tell them everything, but I would do it all over again exactly the same. Sadly my marriage was not restored. To this day, I still have not told my family the worst. Yes, they suspect, but I will neither confirm nor deny. After all, he is still my children’s father and I just don't want my family to slip and say something or without thinking show disrespect or anger towards him in my children’s presence.

I suspect that my mother, like you, T&L would have had a difficult time keeping her finger off the button on that thermonuclear device. I can not even begin to imagine how difficult it was for you.

~ swl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Cissy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That must have been so hard. Mine guessed, and I had no deniability, plausible or otherwise.

SB,

I still pray for the OW every day. I ask God to bring the experiences into her life that will lead her closer to Him. I do think that being able to do that will contribute to your own healing.

(Just a side note, in case you were wondering. Our dear, resident pagan-or-whatever to whom Mom referred, has never posted here. He is a wonderful man, one of my main advisors during Plan A, and a man of great integrity. He happens to take exception to statements that directly or indirectly imply that Christians are the only ones with a set of moral standards. I.e. "His family won't support the A because they are Christians." Or any of a million variations he finds irrestible as an avenue to remind us that Christians are not the only ones with morals. He is a fine example of a non-Christian person who has an excellent character, but Mom hopes to avoid that particular discussion here is possible - you've got enough on your hands already, lol.)

I don't remember if you said, but is 'your' OM/OMen married or single? I think they were single. From what I have seen in many cases, my own included, the single ones often go plumb bonkers after the A ends. On the one hand, this is bad because you will have to deal with additional incidents just when you would most like to settle down and relax, but it can also be good, because the worse the OP behaves, the more of your wife's good feelings for them will be destroyed. Long-term payoff.

My FWH is still very angry when he remembers all the stunts his FOW has pulled, which is why he doesn't like to be reminded of her any more than he can help. Your wife would probably be the same way, too.

If he/they are married it can be a little easier - on you, anyway - because after their spouse knows, you have an ally in maintaining NC, as well as a loving force pulling the OM away from your WW. Either way, it still works.

Have you begun giving some thought to your conditions for recovery? There may be some things that are different for you, since you will be deployed for a good share of early recovery. It will be harder for you to keep track of her yourself (not to keep her from doing anything, of course, but simply to buttress your own peace of mind that nothing is occurring), but with the help of the parents and perhaps some accountability partners, you can make it work.

AW is still asleep, but when she or her mum comes on I'll ask how they handle transparency while Aussie is gone.

I'm so glad her mom came. That will put a real crimp in things. If she is determined to carry on her A, lying to her mom is a real dose of reality, and puts a huge pressure on the A.

Mom, loved your last post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Cat fight"? Hissing and spitting?

Again, I am merely expressing my opinion, as it is my right to do. Your use of these terms under these particular circumstances speaks volumes about your mentality with regard to differences of opinion.

I based my perception upon the tale provided by your daughter and her commentary here in this thread.

Did you really think that NO ONE would read THAT sordid tale and NOT ask certain questions?


As for "failure" -that's your word, not mine. My statement was quite specific: A year post-yuck does not a "successful marriage" make.

Again, my stance is that sometimes it is indeed better to part ways. If this brings your blood to a boil, then you have a serious problem.

BTW-Your daughter seems to think she has "passed" her HIV testing. Apparently she is unaware if the incubation period for this virus...

What is it with you CinnamonSugar?Good grief, get off the STD hobby horse already! If NSYN was exposed, she was exposed. By the time she found out, it was too late. She passed the tests, and just refuses to borrow trouble from tomorrow. If it happens down the road, it was still already too late when NSYN found out.

Sheesh.

Why are you beating this horse?

Are you an OW/OM CS??

ALL,

Okay. God is in control. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> He has a plan and instructions will be revealed on a need-to-know basis. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> God is still in control and if I seek first his kingdom and righteousness, all these things will be given unto me. God is in control. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Called home tonight. Nobody answered, so I called MIL's cell phone. She answered and was reluctant to talk to me. She said I knew you were an abusive husband because of your controlling behavior and she said that I needed to leave my WW alone. No contact via phone henceforth by request of WW. I told her I was thankful that she was there and it was reassuring that DD was in good hands. She said she was angry that my dad had sent help cards to her side of the family. I told her I had no control over how my family was reacting to the possible destruction of my family and out of concern for their firstborn son. I reiterated that I was committed to doing whatever was neccessary to reconcile my wife and give my life over to God - completely. She wondered how I knew she was there and I told her I had heard her voice on the phone when I called two nights back. She didn't believe me. I finished the conversation by saying that I loved my wife and daughter, that I was thankful for the opportunity to re-prioritize my life, and that I would do anything to reconcile with my wife. She asked to include "backing off" and I said, "Yes, to include backing off." I was cordial and thanked her for talking to me and for being there for WW and DD. A lot of bile and vitriol in her voice with a much different perception of reality than mine... Should be expected, as nobody can see the changes I've made but God and my troops.

A word or two on the history of MIL and FIL and WW for context. MIL divorced FIL when WW was about DD's age. FIL was accused of being controlling and abusive and I believe an adulterer, most of which was likely true. FIL is an adopted child and has carried that resentment with him for life. WW still has issues surrounding her relationship with FIL and control is a big part of that. He used to buy her love - which is why the money thing was such a big deal and potentially a huge tactical error. MIL married another man whom she is still married to today, but has never really recovered from depression or scars of the past with FIL. I believe there is a hyper-awareness of controlling behavior there that I didn't realize existed until now. I mentioned WW's relationship with FIL to MIL and she got angry and said it had nothing to do with it. I responded by saying that it was a vulnerability I should've tried harder to understand and prevent myself from similar behaviors that would exacerbate that pain.

As for me and where my controlling behavior and independence came from - it's my mom's influences from when my parents divorced and my mom did the same things. It is my choice to change it and outgrow these things. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. (1 Corinthians 13:11) It is time to stop being a hurt and scared kid and grow up in the Lord with the knowledge that he is in control and if I submit to his will for my life, he will lead me to life in abundance.

WW is making arrangements to take control of her own life and become independent of me. I don't know if the A is still ongoing or what she plans on doing. I don't know where her heart is, but I do know that she is still desperate for financial support without success in her career right now. I am praying for wisdom in the next steps and how far I should go with the financial support, given her past and the present issues making it appear that I am trying to control her with the money. This will be a trying two weeks until I am home, but I cannot reconcile with a wife who will not communicate with me.

I am making arrangements to begin extensive IC from here and continuing it through my time at home on leave. I think it is an important step, since WW asked me to do it prior to deployment and I failed to yield to her...

I want to reconcile myself to God as Jesus reconciled me with Himself... I was reading last night and found an encouraging verse on reconciliation in 2 Corinthians 5:18-19: "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." I think God wants us to understand what he has done for us by placing similar circumstances in our lives that we can recognize the sacrifice he has made in reconciling our sinfulness with his love. I am honored to be in that position and I want to achieve this greater understanding.

I also found another verse that connect's my WW's prophetic statement that God revealed to her that she is like the Israelites. From Hosea 3:1-3: "Go show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred rasin cakes. So I bought her for 15 shekels of silver and about a homer and a lethek of barley. Then I told her, 'You are to live with me many days; you must not be a prostitute or be intimate with any man, and I will live with you.'" I don't know what the sacred rasin cakes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> are or how much a shekel <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> of silver is, but I can see the significance of letting her go on her own path and then seeking reconciliation on God's terms in the future...

One last verse that I found encouraging was from Hosea 2:7: "She will chase after her lovers but not catch them; she will look for them but not find them. Then she will say, 'I will go back to my husband as at first, for then I was better of than now.'" A ministry of reconciliation indeed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We have an awesome and mysterious God that reveals himself in extraordinarily personal ways. We are all truly blessed.

NSYN - Thanks. OM1 is divorced with two kids and OM2 I think is also divorced with a child. Have begun limited consideration of recovery plan, but feel led to focus on IC and knowing God for now. I agree that MIL being there is good from perspective of A, but not sure how much of her own experience will be projected onto WW. Sorry for the long post.

sbmmal

Another day, another challenge. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Too bad your MIL is not going to support you in this, but not entirely unexpected.

Your IC will be a much better barometer than your MIL of how much your behavior needs to change. Since MIL apparently is going to believe anything your WW tells her, just treat her with the same polite detatchment. Of course you will still be calling to speak with your daughter.

Keep emailing, even if there is no response, really light, no pressure. Last I checked, your MIL did not control the portal to the internet.

As your MIL sees you being polite and respectful, even when others do not extend you the same courtesy, maybe she will think twice about what she is hearing from her daughter. Then again, maybe she won't, but you tried. God will help you to be kind to them, even though it's now twice the irritation for the same low price.

If the mountain will not move, Mohammed must go around it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've got all 6 grandkids this morning, so my thoughtful time is somewhat limited, but just as the Bible teaches that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us," we don't have to wait for somebody else before we enter into a ministry reconciliation towards them. If we did, we'd never be able to get started at all. In her mind, you are most likely the enemy, at least to a certain degree. That's her angle. Through grace, it doesn't have to be yours. I'm glad to see that you're finding guidance and confirmation for this approach in the Scripture you're reading.

t&l

hi sbmmal

My H and I have gone through a number of deployments the last one some weeks ago where nothing happen thank goodness,he gets to go all over at a moments notice. what fun ... not.

Our story in brief is that our little boy died of a freak infection while he was deployed. I guess I blamed him for not being there, he blamed me that sort of thing. I actually hated him & wanted to kill my M and go to my little boy, nothing else mattered, not me, not him, not the other kids I guess I was very deep in depression and self destruction. So I had an affair which seemed ok to the person I was then while he was away, and then realised what I was doing & like your wife I ended it before he got back but the damage was done to us both.
Been a long road back together and not easy at times but it was worth it and we are happy. I'm very lucky to have a wonderful forgiving man.

If there is some way our experiences can help pls just ask.

I have read your posts and have some thoughts to offer, I'll think on them and post a bit later during the weekend though if you wish to ask something before pls do.

all the best

AW

Your post clearly demonstrates why I need to keep talking about HIV testing.

The incubation period is 5 YEARS; She had "passed" nothing.

And, no-I am not an OW / OM CS. I was someone who was drawn to the thread because the thread's originator is military & so are my husband and I.

SB-I hope you do not mind honesty because here it comes:

Why are these people treating you as if you are an abuser and blatantly calling you an "abuser?" Why is your wife so eager to become independent of you?

You said you are giving your life to God and "making a change." What exactly are you changing?

You admitted you were "controlling"-How did you maintain control over your wife? To the point: What exactly were you doing before that was so wrong?

Note: If you are an abuser, calling on God will not convince your wife or her family members that you will not abuse her again because:
1) Recidivism rates for domestic abuse are quite high
and
2) Many abusers claim to "find God" and swear they will change if only their victim would forgive them and return. ie-It's a common and well-known tactic, so while you may be truly sincere, it may seem contrived to an outside observer.

Also, many Christians believe that a wife should defer to her husband. The reasoning is that the man is "the head." This is another reason why "finding Christ" seldom helps abusers (and many victims advocates inform victims of this fact.) Abusers want control and the Church basically co-signs that concept. Many abusers and controlling husbands even use the bible to reinforce their position...

LOOK CinnamonSugar(uh huh, as if)...

You are NOT helping...Gunning for one member in particular is quite telling about just who/what you are and exactly what your agenda is here...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

This man is being advised by wonderful people doing a great job helping him to apply MB principles towards the goal of recovering his marriage...WHICH IS WHY HE IS HERE-TO LEARN THE MARRIAGE BUILDERS PROGRAM...You are new to this forum and it is crystal clear that you do not understand the tenets of this program...

Do you have a website for helping people recover from infidelity with a proven sucessful track record? If so, perhaps you can share the URL, and should anyone feel that they would like to learn and apply your methods then they are free to do so...I feel sure that is not the case here...

Again, I ask you, did you read the sign on the door??? It says...

MARRIAGE BUILDERS!!!

Now, if you have a further axe to grind, BigKahuna has started a thread just for you...Here is the link...WE WILL ALL BE MORE THAN GLAD TO RESPOND TO YOU THERE...(*said the spider to the fly*)...THINK YOU'RE UP TO THE CHALLENGE SNOTTY SPICE??? Not responding will speak VOLUMES about you, btw...

Mrs. W

OKAY...

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Matthew 7:1-5

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and siad to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 1 John 1:8-10

Can't we all just get along? We really need to put the rocks down, have a seat, confess our sins, and grab a pair of pliers to remove the planks from our own eyes before applying tweezers to remove the speck of sawdust in eyes of our brothers and sisters.

CS - Your judgements as an outside observer are valid and true in this world. However, I will defer to the judgement passed by my Father in heaven and I am standing on the verses above to ensure I don't commit the same felonies against my wife. I am only changing one thing to fix this mess, but it is a fundamental change - ceding control of my own life to God, which has been necessary from the beginning but I have failed to do until now. This process has been instrumental in helping me recognize the symptoms of a fear-based control in my closest relationships. I have been overly critical, kept people at a safe distance by not revealing my true self, not shared my feelings with people who wanted to know me deeply when I should've, and gotten overly defensive when called out for having the wrong priorities in my life and my family and KNEW I was wrong, but was too prideful to listen. These are my crimes. I am having the surgery to remove the planks from my eyes right now in the middle of this storm and my one true God, not some hypocritical facade of one, is my surgeon. I trust him implicitly to make his blessings come to pass in my life. Thank you for your concerns.

I read Love Must Be Tough last night, nearly cover to cover. I drafted a "Tough Love" letter and feel like that may be the next critical way to make her think differently about the A and its impact on our family. I'll post my final draft for review when I finish it. I really need your prayers NOW for wisdom and discernment in this darkness...

sbmmal

Aussieswife,

Please be the first to chime in and respond to your reaction to the final draft of my Tough Love letter.

___________________________________________________________
WW, 1 July 2006

It is a bizarre thing, how a person can get so close to a problem that he can lose perspective on it altogether. It becomes too difficult to see the issues clearly and to evaluate the possible remedies in context with the larger world around us. WW, over the last month, I have been dragged unwillingly and unwittingly into the chaos of your unfaithfulness and have tried desperately to ascertain the roots of the adultery that you committed. Simultaneously, I began fighting a spiritual battle to protect the things I most cherish in this world, you and our delightful child, while hastening my own efforts to develop into the mature Godly man that I was sent to Iraq to become. Along the way I have attempted to expose and slay the beast of infidelity as the enemy to our chances for an abundant life together. I did this by inviting other believers, our family and our friends, to hold us accountable for our commitments, our actions, and our failures, while simultaneously lifting us up toward the divine standard we've aspired to achieve.

Despite my most valiant efforts, the infidelity in your heart continues and you, the woman I love more than anyone else in this world, consistently deceive me, constantly ignore me, spit venom in my face, and fabricate lies to justify your behavior, despite the eternal consequences it will have on you and our beloved daughter. In the past few days, God has helped me gain some perspective on your infidelity and on all aspects of our marriage relationship within the context of His word and this incredible journey we are each invited to go on with Him. When I have immersed myself in the problem, I have found myself tolerating it, co-opting it, and appeasing it in an effort to protect you. What God has called me to do is to step back and see myself in the storm, understanding His will for my life, and to stand for my marriage without hesitation or regret.

I can assure you that my tolerance for this kind of turmoil in my life or in the life of my daughter has reached a terminal threshold. If you want to leave, you are certainly free to do so. I will not stop you. In fact, doing so could be for the best for all of us. I doubt that I can ever trust you the same way again or feel the depth of love I once felt for you. I know I certainly wasn’t a perfect husband, but I have never shared intimacy with another woman since we began dating almost ten years ago and I am proud to be able to call you my only lover. You violated that sacred trust – I forgave you too easily in the past and we didn’t seal that sin out of our lives, but you made a promise never to allow that mistake to be repeated. Yet here we are again in the same disrespectful situation. WW, if you cannot choose between OM and me, you are devaluing all of us and I will not stand for that. I’d rather face life alone, with the possibility of losing custody of DD, than to be part of your cruel love triangle. If OM is the one you want, I hope the two of you will be happy together. I’m still not sure how something so wonderful became so dirty and distorted, but that is between you and God. We both have to answer to Him in our own way, and my conscience is clear that I have repented my sins and I’m truly leaving them behind me with His help and that of accountability partners and a Christian counselor.

So where do we go from here, WW? I've been doing some intensive thinking, a lot of diligent learning, and hours of incredible praying, and I believe that the time has come for you to walk away from me. It will not work for you to continue to dishonor the one type of human relationship that can even attempt to emulate God's love for his church. I cannot accept continued demonstrations of how little respect you must have for the commitments you have made to me and to DD as my wife and her mother. You and I were married before God and our family and friends on a magical day where we pledged eternal love and commitment to one another and put past indiscretions behind us for the chance at a new beginning. God was in attendance and he heard us both clearly pledge our love and our lives to one another. Do you remember the butterflies and our conversations about them afterward? Now, you so easily defile our marriage, defy our family, and disrespect the changes you clearly recognized and predicted God was making in my life in favor of another man. Like you have demanded through your mother and what I have come to realize is that we both some time apart. We have that between now and when I return from Iraq from leave and for good. I think you should consider leaving our home, perhaps going to live with OM or your parents if you choose. If in the future you decide you want to be my wife, then the discussion will be reopened. However, I will not make any promises of reconciliation beyond what God promises. I’m doing everything possible to move forward, make positive changes within my life, and remove you from my heart to spare myself any more pain. It’s not going to be easy. You have been my only love – the only one I ever wanted and needed. But that was then and this is now. God bless you, WW. I will miss you.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal
____________________________________________________________

Any comments or modifications would be greatly appreciated, especially with regard to how this aligns or deviates from Plan A and Plan B in Marriage Builders.

Need mountains of prayers NOW for wisdom and discernment.

sbmmal

I'm not Aussies wife but I am an Aussie. I'm not a real Plan B or Dobson letter expert but one comment I think you should consider is saying "I will not share you with another man" or I refuse to be OM's girlfriends husband.

sbmmal

ok the letter first.
Parts good, parts not so good.

well first I think you need to be clear on what you want and how you want things to go.
Your letter is really a Plan B type letter which is saying GO and one day if you want back in maybe we will talk.

Thats ok if thats what you want - might need to work on the letters wording a bit though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

What about Plan A???

Any Plan 'A' is almost impossible from where you are now. Your first job right now is very simple .... STAY ALIVE and keep your mind on your job. Right now, if thats only for your daughter.
You have done well just to get some people on side & working for you back home.

I do not think your MIL is giving good advice right now. She is emotionally reacting - of course - to her daughter who has most likely lied like a trooper - pardon the pun. I would expect that she has been told you are Atilla the Hun and Genghis Khan all rolled into one and the worst husband since the next betrayed one. !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
She didn't cheat, YOU made her do it. Hey been there.
Mum has likely bought that hook line & sinker due to her own issues with her first husband, your WW father. She is predisposed to accept YOU are at fault. Therefore her advice as such to separate should be treated with sceptism.
If a professional like Harley advised it and gave reasons as they would, then that at least is part of a 'plan'.
I think you should reconsider this letter right now. But keep it in reserve.

ONCE you are back, you can do a Plan A properly, let her see the changes in YOU. However if she wants to go 'for a while' - this really means to let her go on with her affair without having to feel guilty if she sees you every day - then you cannot stop her.
Thats said, I'm not sure it would be wise to let your daughter go while she is not really holding it all together. I'm not sure if letting your MIL care full time is that great an idea in case things get 'dirty' so to speak.
Perhaps you should take your dd and go visit your parents if they live any distance from you for a while.
But maybe its jumping the gun here talking about a separation right now. Many WW say that but not all actually really want it.

I do think that a lot of the issues here are your ww's and that after the last betrayal no boundaries were set. She did it once before with no consequences so.....? Remember we are dealing with a WW here who has impaired logic and is the centre of the Universe. Thats just the selfish way you think in this state.

Did your WW first meet the OM's in any way to do with her career area she wants?? There may be some basic issues right there.

As far as you limiting her spending, that was a good move though I feel you were being manipulated to reverse it. Right now any extra $$ is only funding her affair.
REMEMBER an affair need not just end due to no physical realtionship continuing. Emotional affairs are as bad if not worse in some cases.

Overall I feel you are doing and have done all you could have from where you are. Perhaps now is the time to avoid talk on separation and if brought up say you do marriage not separation and just leave it at that.

I feel you may be jumping the gun and should reconsider a separation if only because its what she desires and her desires are suspect right now.

Please think on this and if you still want to go down the plan B path then set up all the things you need to do to do a GREAT Plan B.

AW

Just a quick note (for now), I completely agree with AW, that you should wait on Plan B until you have a chance to get in more Plan A. I suspect you were thinking that anyway, and are just trying to get all your ducks in a row - is that correct?

The letter is good, insofar as an expression of your thoughts and feelings, but as a PBL would need considerable trimming. (WS have short attention spans. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

It would be better to take out most of the parts that deal with her betrayal, at least the way they are worded now. I wouldn't exactly call them DJ's, because every word is true and valid, but more of what you say will get through to her if you approach her in a way that is less attacking (even though she deserves to be attacked).

I know you didn't mean it that way at all, and were just trying to give her enough information to understand your point of view. But rather than just saying you did this, and this, and this, you would say, when you did such-and-such it hurt me terribly.

Just some initial impressions to keep in mind. When I have a chance I will look at it in more depth.

You will have to be careful though - once your PBL is ready, the urge to use it becomes almost overwhelming, and you aren't there yet.

I liked your previous post about judging, BTW. It shows that you understand you cannot control anything about others, and what they say or think. Keep God as your guide, and you will avoid the pitfalls of those who only read the "man is the head of woman" part without really internalizing the "man loving his wife as his own flesh, for no man hates his own flesh, but nourishes it" part.

AND THIS IS WHY I'M SO GLAD I'M HERE...

Aussieswife. Thank you for your advice. So many conflicting ideas about how this works. One thing I got from the Tough Love book was the fact that I've made myself appear needy and desperate with phone call frequency. I'm backing off and letting WW's natural curiosity kick in now. I'm going to see if I can get her to the table via e-mail on a consistent basis.

I recognized that pulling the plan B trigger seemed a little premature since I can't actually see or talk to my WW face to face, nor can I hold her to the plan B with any effectiveness. It was a very good exercise to vent to a letter that could be used in the future. It almost allowed me to separate myself from this insanity mentally and emotionally. I need that before I get home so I can be the best me, with the ability to draw her to me from quiet confidence.


No. They were all friends from where she lived in CA and lived out her rebellion to it's fullest there...

I am reading incessantly and trying to remember what my wife needs. It seems like so long since we got off track when I use 20/20 hindsight and so long that I've been gone... Over 13.5 months as of today. She likely needs the reminder as much as I do.

She sent me a response to a devotional I sent her and in it she said that DD and her were watching the DVDs, so I know my message is getting through and that I am there without being there. Puts less pressure on me to communicate with WW in her state. Hard to know whether we are at the beginning of withdrawal or still in the EA/PA... I am inclined to believe the former if her mom is there, but no way to tell. Will call my battle buddy and gain some perspective. Nevertheless, we are connecting over DD's parenting issues and I know we both have a shared value system here and that she thinks I'm a good dad for DD... This is and must be much of the focus of the early reconciliation and I agree that DD going anywhere from home with WW right now would be bad for DD.

Thanks for your support.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

NSYN,

Like I said to AW, I was reading the Tough Love book and trying to find a way to execute on that guidance. In some ways I see her trying honestly (not in the context of an A) to live independently and I know I need to respect that desire she has to be able to not rely on me financially, while still calling a spade a spade with regards to the infidelity. I am definitely in the dark without night-vision-devices right now. I will be calling to talk to DD tomorrow AM, as I think 72 hours is sufficient to demonstrate "backing off" without total abandonment/lack of concern for DD...

One of the things that Tough Love book talks about is swift accountability upon discovery, which I think is met with MB by exposure principles. I know that this has/is working as intended, with a domino effect from concerned family calling other concerned family/friends. I didn't let anyone know about WW's issues in CA when we were engaged and I regret that now because she was never openly remorseful and didn't feel the accountability from anyone other than me. Although I know that guilt has followed her into this situation as well.

I was thinking about the submission verse and the full context of husbands and wives responsibilities to one another. It struck me that WW and I are both uncomfortable by the way that MIL's husband talks to her with a demeaning tone. I think that what I said in the judgement post is still an honest assessment of my crimes of fear-based control, but that I am nowhere as bad as MIL may believe I am or even tolerate from her own H. More likely WW has vilified me as indicated by AW above...

Going to make arrangements for IC anyhow, and call MIL's husband to wish him a happy b-day! I love PDAs and God's timing... Thanks for the advice ladies. It is helpful and I will file what is a very rough-draft PBL letter that may never need to be unleashed, but has helped me re-affirm my beliefs and convictions so I don't continue to co-opt this thing if it is continuing...

I feel a lot better for whatever reason. Maybe ignorance is bliss. Maybe CS has left the forums and I can feel "the force" returning to MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Thank God regardless.

YOU GUYS ROCK!!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

sbmmal

sbmmal - Your Plan B letter has several disrespectful judgements. I would not send it. It is much too early for Plan B.

Dobson's ideas differ substantially from the MB ideas. Dobson believes that you should tell your spouse that you cannot be their keeper, and let them go.

MB believes in a Plan A first. I suggest you keep reading and posting here. I promise you that whichever way your marriage goes, you will come out a happier and better man.

ALCON,

The PBL is now in my file 13 (recycle bin). It was a necessary step for me to get over that irrational emotion and desperate need to speak from the truth after the MIL interaction. Much better DJs come out here in a post than in my Plan A. So far so good. I understand Dobson is not MB and will stay the course here, while applying dignified distance from time to time to reel WW back in and make her think I'm over it.

I spent the evening reviewing the thread by Mortarman about the Roles of Husbands and Wives. I read the entire thread and neglected sleep for it - very good and thought provoking. I've got some work to do as I continue to realign my world with God's will for it. Fortunately, my Eve also has some work to do too, so I and my "helpmate" will have a great blueprint to work from as we go forward. I was so relieved by the Word of God tonight in MM's message that I found myself laughing aloud in the middle of my dark room at 2:30 AM. Awesome!

NSYN - Finished your story and am truly honored to have you here on my thread. Sorry for your losses but in awe and amazement at what you've gained in this process.

Everything I have learned and everything God has and is teaching me has given me complete peace about the eventual outcome of this trial. I honestly see myself grabbing my place next to Jesus in the boat and catching a nap, despite the storm that suddenly rages around me. This is where I need to be to keep cool and collected throughout the coming weeks...

Thanks to all for the feedback and support.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

Sounds like you are doing well. As Independence Day approaches, my prayers go out to you and all of the others standing in harm's way.

Were you planning to get out before all of this happened? The reason I'm asking is because I work for the Navy and have seen lots of men get out because their wives insisted, only to get divorced anyway.

Believer,

We were both in agreement about me leaving the military earlier this year before all this mess. I love being in the military but I know that there has been so much time lost to deployments and training... I need to do this to prove the commitment I have made to WW and I feel complete peace about it no matter the outcome...

Thanks for the support of all of us over here. Hoping not to see any rocket's red glare or bombs bursting on my 4th... I'll save that for next year!

Not much new on the homefront so far as I can tell. I called last night and left a positive message on the home phone and mobile phone.

All I am and will become in Him,

SB -

Just sneaking onto MB for a few minutes before the tired kiddies wake up. I have to disassemble the giant tent in the middle of the living room. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your nice comment meant a great deal to me, but I have to put in a disclaimer. Or two. One is I am still a fairly new kid on the block. Sadly, there are more brand spankin new kids every day, but I'm far from an old-timer. (Which is why I extra-value the more seasoned troops 'round here.) The other is that most of what I did was yield to God. I must have driven Him crazy by always want to stir the pot when He had it simmering nicely, but for the most part I let Him do the hard stuff.

By all means, have a quiet Fourth! You would not be nearly as happy to see fireworks over there. Thank you for what you do.

I just saw this:

AHHHHHH!

This is excruciating. I have no idea what it going on with either my daughter or my wife. No e-mail, no phone calls, no nothing. Praying a lot. Not sure if MIL has convinced WW to take DD out of state or what. This is crazy.

NSYN - I have resigned myself to the expectation that this EA/PA will last until I come home for good. I hope I can stay sane until then and I hope that I can continue contact with DD during that period. I can't do anything to get through to them without being pushy.

Thanks for your continued prayers.

sbmmal

Only contact in 4 days from WW via e-mail was painful to read but it is still very obvious that we are still in the midst of an A full-swing:

On a relationship note, you and I are in very different places. I appreciate all of the efforts you are making to change and I hope that you are doing it more for you than for us. The only lasting change will be because you chose to do so for yourself and God. My heart is closed to any possibility for a marital reconciliation between us. Although you have apologized for the financial mistrust in me, that was the last straw for me. I don't trust you and I feel very betrayed. I did not spend money on a relationship outside of ours. I am hurt that you would even think that I would do that.

I continue to care about you as a friend, father to DD, and brother in Christ. You can call and talk to DD anytime you want to. This decision has been prayerfully considered and God has given me peace.

In Him,
WW

P.S. I will be closing the Cingular account."

Please advise if anything outside of the norm here for the script of a betrayed spouse and what my response should be from the MB perspective.

Thanks in advance.

sbmmal

Nope, sounds pretty typical.

It reminds me of the time AJ was shocked to find that I STILL didn't believe him when he denied resuming sexual activity with the OW. He actually appealed to the dog, rofl. "YOU believe me, don't you boy? Yes, you do! SHE doesn't believe us, no she doesn't." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

She is far from done with you.

"On a relationship note, you are making me feel really bad by your willingness to change. I wish you would stop, but if you won't, at least let me convince you to believe you are only doing it for yourself, because then I won't feel as awful. Of course I don't want to think of reconciliation, because I am in the middle of my affair, and that would tend to interfere with the fantasy. In a way, I'm kinda relieved that you did that stuff with the finances. Now I have a really big excuse to be mad at you, and to cut you out of my life, and just something that sounds better to all these people that are calling me, than having to say, 'Well, I am cheating on my husband'. How could you do that? There should be NO consequences for my actions! I am going to keep plucking this one string over and over and over, trying to make you feel super-guilty for even doubting me.

"I love you, but I'm not in love with you. I have ignored the voice of my conscience, and am floating in an uneasy spiritual silence. Lalalalalalala, God, I can't hear you!

"P.S. I am turning off the cell phone, just in case you are able to access the bill and see who I am calling, and when."

Don't stress it, I know it's hard, but it will all come out in the wash. Eventually.

Oh, suggested response.

Dear WW,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings with me. It means a lot to me when we communicate on a deeper level.

I love you and our DD very much, and look forward to the time we can be together as a family again, and be happier together than we have ever been, with our new, improved marriage.

Love,
Your Husband

Your persistent refusal to buy into her garbage, and the way you consistently cling to the marriage and the chance for future bliss, will drive her nuts. She will rail at you and try to convince you to be done with her. When she fails, she will not know what to do.

AJ tried many times to convince me to be done with him, so he wouldn't have to be the one to pull the plug. Even if your WW goes so far as to file for D, her mental processes will still follow the same general course.

Neak,

Thanks for your continued support and for your help in the response. I'm getting closer to being able to respond consistently to this garbage.

I got another DVD together and I'm finding them very therapeutic and a great way to connect with DD before I get home.

I got a laugh about AJ's bringing the dog into the argument against a continuing affair on your thread and again when you posted it on mine!!!

Off to read some more. I got the Fall in Love, Stay in Love CDs and Dobson and Smalley's books about loving your wife the right way... Much to do before getting home.

Love Never Fails. 1 COR 13:8

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

The dog, being smart, never said a word! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dogs are like that - loyal, true and silent when it counts!

Spoke with WW last night for about an hour. It was very congenial at first - she says she's making some big changes; leaving private practice and going back to a job in an agency where she can deal exclusively with children and not have to worry about billing out hours and not getting paid; going to a domestic violence prevention and recovery group at the behest of her mother. [Point of order - I want to reiterate that I have employed enough of the controlling LBs (SDs, DJs, AOs) and some independent behavior to drive my wife to emotionally withdrawal, but I have never raised a hand to her and I haven't yelled at her since Novemeber, even when I wanted to after finding out about the A and having my instincts kick in.] Anyhow, I told her I was glad she was seeking professional help in whatever form and I told her I was too. There is so much going on at once with her that I'm trying to keep up but having a hard time.

As we transitioned into the conversations about finances, her infidelity, and my controlling behaviors, I tried to stay on message without any LBs. I think it was effective and I think I caught her off guard a bit by telling her I'd been pursuing IC. She mentioned that she was using the A as an exit strategy from our marriage, and she said the same thing about what she had tried during Korea with her other infidelities. I told her it would've been far more effective if she'd not led me to believe that we were making progress toward real intimacy before the A began. I also reiterated the way ahead with us doing some MC in addition to the IC we both needed. I told her it was certainly not too late to fix our marriage and make it better than it ever had been before, but that it would likely take some time for her to see and accept the changes that I was making with God's help. She seemed to accept this on some level. I also told her that her continued relationship with OM would make it impossible for her to achieve what she's longing for with either of us. She went off about the exposure and about the finances and told me she'd never be able face some of those people again. I did not apologize and explained that it was in the best interest of DD, our family, and our marriage that I humbled myself by approaching some of our best friends and family for help for BOTH of us. I also reiterated that I'm thankful for the trial that has forced me to take a repentant turn, increasing my faith and furthering my walk with God. Nevertheless, she believes I'm having her followed and that the neighbors are watching her with disapproval, which is not true because of anything I've done...

I've been reading a lot and I just ordered Love Busters and the 5 Steps to Romantic Love workbook to go with it. I'm making arrangements for an intake with MB counseling on Monday or Tuesday. I'm talking to a doctor and a chaplain here in the meantime. In reading a book by Gary Smalley, I realize how I have hurt my wife by failing to control my instinctive behaviors and mostly by my own stupid male ego and ignorance of an entirely different love language. It was reassuring to know that we men, including yours truly, are mostly genuinely ignorant of how to achieve true intimacy and even when you tell us, it takes a lot to get through and much more to make the changes stick... but that when they do, it is possible to fan the flames back to love.

One note of curiosity from the conversation that raised my eyebrows was her insistent paranoia that I was cheating on her. I mentioned that I was seeing an IC and she responded that it must be a woman therapist. I mentioned that I was learning a lot about women - she asked how before I could even finish explaining I was reading books by Dobson and Smalley. Is this a normal pattern - they are cheating so they believe a retaliatory strike is pending or in progress?

I've been thinking about a recovery plan and I think one of the issues that needs to be resolved is the WW's abandonment and fidelity issues along with a need to be the center of the universe. In thinking about our 10-years together, this is probably the third major incidence of her drifting away to feel her oats in a period of my absence, regardless of promises made and pledges on both sides. I think she has the same intimacy roadblocks that I have, but that for whatever reason it's okay for her to test the waters when she needs an escape from reality and being a mature adult in a mature adult relationship. Am I off base here?

Sorry for the long post but it was an interesting conversation and left me with a lot to think about and more hope that this is doable, despite the overt language from her that it is not - her emotions and her non-verbal communications betray her true desires for the outcome.

I could use some input from the MB elite on how to proceed with her given her dramatic career changes...

Love never fails. 1 COR 13:8

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

While we're waiting on the elite, I have a couple of thoughts. First, I have no clue about the escape from reality thing; it sounds possible, but I don't really have personal experience that would give me a good guess on that one.

It may even wind up in your favor about the new counselling. Let's pray it does. As her counsellor keeps asking her, does he do this, does he do this, and educating her about truly controlling behavior, it may give something to contrast against your doglike (lol) devotion.

Even worst case scenario, where the counsellor totally buys into what your WW tells her, and gives all kinds of advice against you, still is not going to change the basic facts of your future, even if it prolongs it a bit. The A will still end, counsellor or no counsellor, and you will still be poised to very likely have the opportunity to recover your marriage.

If the counsellor is destructive, finding a new one should be part of your boundaries that she will agree to if she wants you back.

Perfectly normal to think you are having an A. Don't stress it. Just take the opportunity to keep reassuring her of your doglike love and devotion (really, don't say doglike <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and do not do anything that would give her the idea you are cheating on her. That's about all you can do.

She probably half-hopes, and is half-afraid that you are. If you are, she has the best possible excuse for leaving you, but she could also lose you to someone else. Hey, at least she's thinking about you some of the time.

If her career changes do not involve easier access to the OM, support them. Unless you know for sure the A is being helped by this, be very very happy for her. If you find out something later, you would just mention that your marriage is not going to work if she continues to [fill in the blank], but make no ultimatums at that time. Add it to your list of boundaries, and you will deal with it at the end of Plan B.

You're doing fine.

NSYN,

Thanks for your encouragement. I just made arrangements for a session with Jennifer Harley on Monday night. Crappy part is I have to get up at the BCD (b*tt-crack of dawn) to make the call, but hey, our marriage is worth it.

I also made some arrangements with a LMFT back in WA for when I am home on leave. I'm sure I will be needing some support from someone while I'm dealing with WW. I've got the Army footing the bill for those and I'm going to encourage WW to use the same service.

I agree on the career change and I actually think it will make contact with OM much less frequent. I think it is in the death spiral, but I don't underestimate the power of the EA on this one either, as I'm sure they're still talking a lot on the phone. Nevertheless, she is really respecting the boundaries in the finances and I'm thinking she wants to see whether she can make it on her own until I get myself sorted out... It is so hard to say which way is up, but like so many have said here - work on yourself to the max and everything will work out right either way.

I am feeling very positive and thank God for MB and the support of these forums.

sbmmal

Please tell me how you go about getting the military (Army) to pay for family counseling?? I am in the midst of an affair and so desperately want to end it...but we have major marital issues besides the affair that need to be worked out. I would like to line up a marital counselor before I admit the affair to my husband and put and end to it. I desperately want to start working on our marriage.

ND,

Too easy - glad to be of service. Please tell your husband and work on your relationship after exiting the relationship with the OM with the pledge of no contact. You will make half of the effort to reconcile and be well on your way to making this work. It would be even better if you could get him on MB before breaking the news to him and after you end it. This is a great place...

Call Military OneSource at 1-800-342-9647 or go to their website (www.militaryonesource.com) and lookup counseling for more information on the program. OneSource will pay for 6 sessions of individual counseling for you and if you can't finish working through it after that they will refer you back to the military or bill your insurance to continue. If you need MC, you and your husband can use the same program under his name for 6 comp sessions together.

Whatever you do - end it first (i.e. NOW), make it a permanent break, be honest and back away for the fireworks, and then be willing to work through it together with the goal of marital reconciliation as the endstate. He'll understand when the knife in his back stops hurting so much and you remove it by doing a lot of the dirty work ahead of time.

God bless you and your family.

sbmmal

You might have to shop around a bit, but is there any chance that the chaplains do counseling like that? You would want to find one with affair recovery experience, but that might be possible if you do not succeed in finding a regular military counselor.

If you have not, be sure to read all you can here about how to end an affair, and what your husband will need from you in order to recover.

I've created my own barracks-room industry with the DVDs. I showed one of my lieutenants the stories I was reading my daughter and he was so impressed with the production quality that he wanted me to help him make one for his wife. They are struggling with the deployment as well. War is not a good thing for marriages - it is doable, but very, very difficult for both spouses, especially if you don't have a "solid foundation," my wife's words from the last call and months ago haunting me now...

I feel a lot better when I've got the chance to help others in the same situation - that's the power of community. I prayed a long time last night for nursedana and her husband. I hope he doesn't lose it when she lets him in on the dirty little secret... Betrayal is a real stinger when you get blindsided while doing something like this to achieve something much greater than yourself.

I ordered the MB HN,HN and LB courses and had them sent home. Not sure we will get there before leave ends, but it'll be good to have them when this madness ends. I sent my wife a note to let her know that I'm going to concentrate sharing my personal growth efforts with her dad. I think there is a lot that he and I could learn from taking this challenge on together and I'd like to be able to witness to him as well. I don't think WW and he are on speaking terms right now anyhow. He's pretty disappointed in her and the choices she is making. A great opportunity to help him eliminate LBs in his paternal relationship with her while I'm doing it as her husband.

I finished Smalley's If He Only Knew: What No Woman Can Resist last night and saw a lot of my own flaws in that book... I wish I had listened and LEARNED all this before now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Water under the bridge... I'm reading Dobson's What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women tonight. I'm sure that if I hear it more than one way I'll understand it better. I must reiterate that men, speaking for all of my ilk here, are geniuinely ignorant of how to cherish, tenderly love, and nourish their wives. It's compounded when we are too prideful to listen to the needs and genuine criticisms from their sensitive and fragile helpmates...

I'm living in Ephesians and James right now. I loved the way Mortarman put together the Husbands and Wives Roles thread and explained savior, sanctifier, and satisfier for the men. Really broke it down clearly. Standing on the following verses until I have them memorized and internalized... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ephesians 5:25-32 - Husbands love your wives... as Christ loved the church... and presented her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. Husbands love your wives... as their own bodies... no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church. Man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.

James 1:13 - Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

I am curious how much to talk the message of the harm she is doing to me and DD with her while in Plan A? I'm trying to "own my feelings" but not DJ or LB in the process. I finished the e-mail by telling her honestly how I'd felt used disrespected by her actions given my current stationing and that she still had a chance to make it right by getting OM out of the picture so we could move forward together for DD and for us. Not over the top, right?

Okay last thing - I got a new CD for the BS and I mixed it in with the worship music on my MP3 player as additional motivation... Alana Davis put out an album last year called Surrender Dorothy and there are like 6 songs on there from the perspective of the BS - really good stuff. Sorry for the long post... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

sbmmal

I think one thing that helps wives get through this is close ties with other wives in the same situation.

My husband was in Vietnam for 18 months. It was awful. At that time, there were no organizations for the wives. I felt very alone. Didn't fit in with single friends, OR married friends.

I live in Oceanside, HOME OF THE MARINE CORPS. Here there are all kinds of organizations for those left behind. It is wonderful to see the support and friendship.

Hope you will let others know about this site. Over the last few years we have talked with lots of deployed men - from Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places.

My WH started his affair with the OW when her husband was fighting in Iraq. Talk about low. I still have a hard time believing it, because my husband always had a heart for those serving our country.

Prayers to you and all of the others over there.

B,

Thanks for your post. I agree and I tried to get my wife involved in the unit family readiness group to an extent, but we are in the National Guard, so relationships amongst family aren't that tight and people are scattered all over the state.

I read your post about the Harley and I want to commend you for being the bigger person. I have a feeling you fought your hardest for a long time to save your marriage and I want to thank you for the inspiration. As MB promises, you succeeded for yourself despite the outcome and the infidel's attacks. I am proud of you and I don't even know you - great work.

sbmmal

sbmmal

thankyou very much for your well wishes on TL's thead. I also wish to thank you too being where you are and doing what you have to do. Just stay safe and get home to your daughter and I pray a remorseful wife.

I do hate that my DH has to go again but thats what I signed on for when I married the regular army I guess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I feel my DH has done more than his share but my opinion apparently is not considered <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I guess I'll be a bit of a mess after he goes but I come from a long line of worriers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
We had a farewell the other night for the men and families and prayed the soldiers prayer. it has always given me some comfort.

Friends, we gather in this place to celebrate the mass and pray for our friends, husbands, brothers and sons who today are facing the ultimate test of a soldiers life, battle.
It is sometimes hard, in times like these, to understand God's will. We pray to be granted comfort and acceptance of what may be the unbearable.

Let us pray

Our good Lord, grant them to serve thee as thou deservest; to give and not to count the cost; to fight and not to heed the wounds; to toil and not to seek for rest; to labour and not to ask for any reward, save that of knowing that they do thy will; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Unto God‘s gracious mercy and protection we commit them. The Lord bless them and keep them. The Lord make his face to shine upon them, and be gracious unto them. The Lord lift up his countenance upon them, and give them peace, both now and evermore. Amen.

Lord God, let this prayer be their armour and comfort in the time of their need
"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil,
for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me."
Oh gracious Lord, if it be THY will deliver thy servants from the valley of the shadow of death and return them to their loving families. Grant them safe journey through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen.


Take care & I'll pray for you and your family if thats ok

AW

I am not gunning for anyone, and I have no agenda. I am simply willing to be "radically honest" about what I am thinking. If you don't like honesty, that "tells" on you. You say I am not helping but honesty does indeed help-and the founder of this site would agree with me on this particular point.

Infidelity isn't the only issue SB is battling here. In his telling of the tale, he said that he was wrong to be "controlling" with his wife. This is a serious matter that needs exploration in order to achieve a LASTING repair of their relationship-if that is even possible at this point. Singing kumbaya and holding hands isn't going ot do it, but honesty would be a step in the right direction.

To be clear-SB needs to address the issue of his controlling behavior: That is... admit it, delve into it, discuss it, and see why he did it. Otherwise he is likely to repeat it and this cycle will happen for him and his wife (or subsequent paramours) all over again.

BY the way, name calling on the MARRIAGEBUILDERS web site? Wow... Do you use that tactic within your marriage?

I am someone who values marriage; however, I believe that self love is important as well.

To be honest, SB, from your posts-it does not seem that the affair caused the disintegration of your marriage. It appears that your wife incorrectly chose the arms of another man as an escape; however, she was probably going to do a dash anyway. It also appears that she and her parents believe that you are abusive and they view your religious conversion is insincere.

Your words here are very revealing. You say you are only changing "one thing" to fix this mess. Are you aware that change is a multifaceted endeavor? Giving control to God is one part of the process. God helps us, but we must do our part.

Exactly what "felonies" have you "committed" against your wife and why are you being accused of abuse? You must honestly address these questions.

You say you have never hit your wife. Domestic abuse does not need to include physical violence. Control of the victim is the key motivator in a domestic abuse scenario, and you have admitted that your were controlling. Are you willing to entertain the idea that you were an abusive man?

If you are serious about getting things straight in your life and possibly getting your marriage back on track permanently, I STRONGLY urge you to visit and explore this site. It was designed by men for men.

Be sure to click on the "Violent & Controlling Behavior Checklist" & scroll down to the portion that lists psychological and emotional abuse: http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/LearnMore/Info4Men.php

Hey SB, where do you stand on getting your leave? Is it still a go for this month?

CS,

Welcome back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Let me respond by stating that my marriage has not disintegrated. We are still married and things are progressing for her and I individually and I believe they will progress as a couple when we are together again during my leave, which is scheduled to begin in less than a week.

My words are revealing because they are honest. What do I have to gain from lying on this site? The only way I can have others help me is to reveal myself, my actions, my responses, my instincts, my fears, and my pain, and my true self. I concur with you that love-of-self is important and that is one of my issues with my intimacy with my wife and with God - I never took the time to know me better so I could share that with her or Him.

I have listed my "felonies" to the best of my knowledge and as I gain more knowledge, I gain more insight into myself. Reading is fundamental and I thank you for the link. The way I discovered the root cause (fear-based control) of the symptoms that have driven my wife into the arms of another was through the following website and the wise counsel of MSA on this website (see the thread):

Overcoming Control

When I read this, it hit me hard because I realized that my behaviors had deeply wounded my wife and prevented the kind of true intimacy that we needed to have a successful marriage. I understand that the controlling behavior is a form of abuse and I as the perpetrator was being abusive. Not only have I entertained the idea, I have acknowledged it, looked into it, grieved it, prayed about it, scheduled IC for it, and been repentant for it to both my WW and God. Those are the actions I am taking in response to the one fundamental change I am making to help me change into the husband and father I am supposed to become.

That is what precipitated my commitment to pursuing God more fervently and with humility - to succeed in making the changes in accordance with God's will for my life and to understand how to cherish and nourish my wife the right way. This isn't kumbyah and handholding, it's being a person of faith willing to act on that belief in God. I really don't care if my MIL believes my re-commitment is insincere, as only time will be the testimony and I can't affort to become complacent with my faith again.

Plan A is mostly about understanding where you've fallen short and making a concerted effort to change, then changing and proving your love through actions. It's about becoming the best husband and father I can become as quickly as I can to BEGIN righting the wrongs of neglect and controlling behavior so we can fall in love again and have a far better marriage going forward. I am making progress and I am encouraged by what God is doing in me and my life. That is all I can control and I am at peace.

Thanks for your continued inquiries into my progress on this issue and for the information.

sbmmal

LOL, I am one of the most honest and blunt posters around here, my friend...Because of my honesty, I recognize BULLCRAP when I read it...Hey, I threw a bunch of that around here myself in the beginning, so I completely understand...I get it CS, really, I do...I just find it more than interesting, that you show up here to be "radically honest" on only ONE thread, while taking cheap shots at a long time MB poster with no provocation whatsoever,(except for her continued support of SB) AND also, without ever telling YOUR story...Sorry, that just doesn't smack of honesty in my book, much less "radical honesty"...I think it's time for "quid pro quo" CS...


See again, CS, I just truly wonder where you are getting your information regarding infidelity...When I was in my affair, I too accused Mr. W of being controlling...And in our case, THAT IS LAUGHABLE-He is far from controlling...But the "controlling cry" is very often heard from a WS, because it makes for a great smoke screen...You know in the mind of a WS, the best defense is most often an agressive offense...It's just the name of the game CS...


You know CS, I would do anything that I could to get you off this man's thread, because you aren't doing anything but acting as a distraction to him, actually, probably an annoying one, at that...How's that for radical honesty?

Further, I always find it hilarious when people try to twist MB principles and use them as some sort of bizarre "feelings shelter" for strangers on a public forum...To answer your question, NO, I do not call my husband names...Um, I am MARRIED to him, and we do use MB principles in our MARRIAGE...CS, you are a STRANGER to me, one, IMO, that is doing a terrible disservice to SB, as he tries to learn the MB program, of which, you are very clearly, not well versed...Also CS, let me further point out the obvious to you...I am NOT married to you, so you are not afforded the privilege of my use of MB principles towards you...Especially when I see you hindering others who are trying to teach/learn...That's just the way it works CS!


CS, to turn a phrase on you, it is "your words here [that] are very revealing"...In fact, much of what you say here is spoken like a true Wayward Wife DEEP in the Fog...That's who you are, isn't it CS? You are SB's Wayward Wife! The logic follows, to be sure...The more you post, the foggier your writing becomes, which serves to make it all the clearer for those of us that have witnessed the fog before...Seriously, now fog is literally dripping from your fingertips as you type. In fact the more you post, the more the fog spills, thus causing your posts to be riddled with incriminating "fogprints"...And CS, it is especially plain to see from my perspective as a FWW...

And CS, I understand that you don't want to trust his changes, I didn't want to trust Mr. W's either, but they were real...Here's what you have to understand, he is changing for him, regardless of whether the marriage works or not...THAT is what a good MB Plan A is all about-It is an action, NOT a reaction...The goal is for SB to become the best man and husband that he can be...He is responsible for his changes...Just as you are responsible for yours...We are only able to change ourselves, after all...

You should KNOW this, and you will eventually need to INTERNALIZE it...YES it was too the AFFAIR that caused the disintegration of the marriage...AN AFFAIR IS NEVER A SOLUTION TO MARITAL PROBLEMS...NEVER! But WSs are MASTERS of shifting BLAME, so I get where you are coming from...I did that too, all WSs do that...

CS, it is not a good idea to be posting on your husband's thread-it doesn't help either one of you to do that-no objectivity can be had...So please start a thread of your own, humble yourself, ask questions, and let the good people here help you deal with your problems...THAT is the right way to go about this...Let go of your pride and allow yourself to begin healing...Let's talk about what happened, okay? You play nice and so will I...However, I must warn you, as a good friend of mine here is fond of saying, "Bullcrap has a very short shelf life here at MB", and that is true...So I will be glad to help you, but I won't let you lie to me or to yourself for that matter...So, let's cut to the chase CS, whaddaya say?

Mrs. W

Now for an update on the situation.

I got an e-mail from my family that gave me some much needed information on OM. Here's the story:

OM divorced his first wife on 12/15/98 after filing twice for divorce in 1997 and 1998 and he married his business partner's wife in 1999. He had one child with each of them. His divorce from his second wife was final 6/23/06, which is about a month after he met WW. In both cases, he initiated the divorce. And in both cases his wives requested restraining orders against him.

He has an 11/30/05 domestic violence protection order that was requested by the second wife for herself and her child.

On 7/7/06 a lien was filed against him for failure to pay child support in the amount of $1967.00. WW says he has custody of both children, so why would he have to pay CS?

There are also various payroll tax liens that have been filed against him.

So anyhow, I get this e-mail and I'm calm, cool, and collected when I call my WW tonight. I told her about all of the information I'd discovered out of concern for the safety of her and DD. She was surprized about a lot of it I think, but she played the shock down. Although she did ask me to repeat it once for her, which was the giveaway.

We had a great, and I mean a GREAT conversation. After explaining the information I had on OM and confirming that I've never cheated on her during our marriage, I offered to hear how my actions had damaged her heart and our marriage. She said she feels like she never really knew me and that she felt rejected by me in many ways throughout the years - spiritually, emotionally, and sexually. She elaborated on the sexual part and I'll be looking into that more. She opened up to me about how I'd failed to meet her most important emotional needs for conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment. I acknowleged my mistakes, apologized and, most importantly, asked for her forgiveness. She granted me some of the forgiveness I'd requested and witheld it on other items. We discussed the sincerity of the changes we were both making and she was relieved to hear that I'd scheduled IC at home during my leave. She became overwhelmed toward the end and I respected her need to end the conversation after a quick prayer. She asked for healing and I asked for God to give me the wisdom and ability to nourish and cherish my wife.

God's timing is amazing and I am truly thankful that I'm not home quite yet, despite some serious urges to do whatever it takes to get there and fight in person. I feel like I've still got so much to learn, but I'm getting great help from God and this site. Thanks to all. Keep up the prayers and the support.

sbmmal

Mrs. W -

Wow... That's a very X-Files conclusion that CS is my WW!!! Not sure I'm in agreement here, but anything's possible. It is interesting that I'm the only thread she posts on.

I found a great quote today regarding personal change and marriage:

Love seems the swiftest but it is the slowest of all growths. No man or woman really knows what perfect love is until they have been married a quarter of a century. ~Mark Twain

sbmmal

sbmmal

how are you going today? hope all is well with you.

I too have to agree with Mrs W, CS is almost certainly a WW and there is some inkling of thought that imo that she is your Wife - X files music playing, however its hard to actually be 100% positive.

Much of what CS has said are the same kind of thoughts and reasoning I went through as a ww. Especially the 'blame the H bit', Or God or the times or anything or anyone other than myself. No a ww does not like accepting that "their" actions are those that broke a M.

There may be many reasons why a person will cheat, BUT there are no excuses. NEVER.
If a M is so bad, that there is no hope or commitment of improving it to a level that is acceptable to both, then you need to consider leaving it.

Having an affair is a cop out. That is you avoid the HARD work of actually trying to do something about a M under threat for whatever reason.

The real work will start when you go home and are actually able to do work on the M and offer your wife an opportunity to work on it as well. That is, Plan A or equivilent, I do recommend you seek out the Harleys for a great plan as they have proven to be very effective in tailoring plans to suit the situation.
For now keeping open the lines of communication, even as they are, is the best way to go. Let her tell you what she feels, doesn't matter if you think its not the 'truth', right now its her truth and you need to only listen and accept its what SHE feels.
This shows that you have learnt to listen to her, though you may not of course fully agree with her.
I can tell you this is so important for her to see this, but dont expect miracles. It didn't take a few months for your M & relationship to get where you are now and it won't take a few months to rebuild or have a new realtionsip.

Again I do encourage you to seek the Harleys to make a plan and perhaps your wife will be willing to join in this with you.

prayers for you and your family
AW

AW,

Thanks for your comment and prayers from the other day on both threads. I'm thankful you are praying for us here and for my family back home. I too hope that I will return to a repentant wife.

Feeling like there is certainly some light at the end of this tunnel. Especially after WW's reaction to the truth I was giving her. I am finding a lot out about the OM today by looking up court records. He has a bad habit of divorcing women, getting restraining orders put on him, and of not paying his taxes. A real catch and more proof that WW's cheat with lesser men. Obviously only lesser men would stoop to the deplorable level of pursuing a relationship with a lonely wife of a deployed soldier. Especially when he was a soldier himself!!! It's just good to have some proof of the hypothesis in my case.

I have an appointment with Jennifer Harley Chalmers tonight (tomorrow AM on this side of the world). I'm going to talk Plan A and make sure I'm ready for what's next. Invited WW on the phone and she declined. Not ready to face the truth quite yet but possibly emerging from the fog a bit.

I think you are right, to just hear her out, no matter how she feels and, like I saw somewhere else on MB, install a hopper to ensure fog-based thoughts aren't taken on by me as truth... We can't keep discussing something she won't acknowledge and I can't tolerate - the cop out that you describe.

Praying for you, your family, and your Husband. The Austrailian Soldiers have it a lot harder from my perspective than American Soldiers, as there are more of us to go around and the rotations seem to be less frequent, although longer in duration as we continue our 5th year of this effort. My hats off to him and to your family for sticking it out through thick and thin like you are!!!

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

This much I can say with complete confidence: if your WW were to come on here and post, she would sound just like CS.

If she actually is here reading, that can be good.

If it reaches the point where you need to do classified planning, and would not want to take the chance that you might be forewarning your WW, email Melody Lane and ask her for assistance.

It is good that you listened to your WW about all her issues, and it is good that you understand the hopper concept, too. You don't want to just dismiss it all as fog, but think of it more as clues how you can better meet those needs in the future, than any type of accurate picture of the past.

She is not capable of giving you an undistorted assessment right now, and yet you can still learn from what she tells you, as long as you don't take it too personally. Be as objective as possible. If you were doing everything as wrong as she says, she would have left you a long time ago. So just take this as a chance to fine-tune your woman-pleasing skills.

I didn't read the story, but this little quote is from the longtime MB members thread, and it was interesting to me after our discussion on trust from the other day.


I think the poster's name was FinallylrningT2H.

NSYN,


Yep. Right on and exactly what I'm trying to explain to all the doubters and haters... I'm doing this for me and DD. WW will see the light and realize what a fool she's been. Either way I'm a better man for it, so expending all this energy, time, and money is an investment in the future - whatever it has for me.

Clock is ticking for reality to set in with WW. I'll be home in less than a week I'm thinking. I'm jotting some notes down for my call with MB tonight. I plan on discussing the following items:

• Perfecting Plan A
• Placing Emphasis on What's Worked in the Marriage
• Stopping Lovebusters
• Offering Forgiveness and Understanding
• Directly Communicating the Hurt and Devastation the Infidelity has Caused
• Not Accepting Blame for the Infidelity
• Establishing and Maintaining Boundaries
• What to Expect for Withdrawal
• How to Develop an Adequate Recovery Plan

I hope this all fits into a most expensive hour of therapy.

Request for your continued prayers that I will be ready for the battles that lie ahead and for the endurance, or better yet, the perseverance to march onward and maintain forward momentum with God's grace and my humility.

Listening to a little Mercy Me's Undone and soaking it all in right now. "To the cross I run, holding high my chains undone. Now I am finally free, free to be what I've become - Undone!!! Hallelujah, I'm undone!"

Lyrics - Mercy Me "Undone"

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

Did you say anything about a religious conversion? If you did, I missed it.

Quote by CS - "It also appears that she and her parents believe that you are abusive and they view your religious conversion is insincere."

True, I was under the impression SB had always been converted, but was simply discovering new depths to his walk.

Who knows, Neak? I wonder if his wife has a friend that is former Navy, with a Marine husband, as CS stated in the little bit of her story that she posted?

At any rate, I hope she sticks around.

Your marriage did disintegrate. That's why you came to this site.



There is much to be gained from lying to ourselves, that is why people do it. One thing that is to be gained is the reduction of cognitive dissonance-that is the discomfort we experience when we realize our actions are in direct and blatant conflict with our own view of right and wrong.

Based upon your earlier posts, I believe that you refused to see your role in this situation. You said "I never hit my wife" and "I have not yelled at her since November." As if THAT alone was proof that your in-laws' and wife's accusation of abuse was looney. One co-signer in this forum even alluded to the idea that your wife should see what "real" controlling behaviors are like.

A few of the posts began to take on the "that crazy woman" tone. With plenty of co-signers here to share the pain of their spouse's infidelity, that part was easy and fairly predicatble.

SB, support is important but it must be the right kind of support for it to be meaningful and for it to help us. We need people who will tell us the truth even when we do not want to hear it. I do not think that this was happening for you with some of the folks who responded in this thread.

I am so glad you are finally admitting that you abused your wife. (I am hoping she will admit that your abuse was not an excuse for infidelity.) That is the first step towards healing. I am very happy that you came to the decision to do admit what you did and also to do your part to remedy the situation (not just "leave it to God.") As long as you are willing ot do this, you guys have a real chance.

I wish you the best of luck.

I have visited the marriagebuilders site before there was a forum. I was surprised when I returned and saw one so I read a few of the posts.

You may have missed this but I only commented in this thread because I saw that SB is military-like me and husband are.

I don't have a "story." To my knowledge, my husband has never cheated on me and I have not cheated on him. The biggest thing we are focused on @ the moment is refinancing our mortgage. Exciting..I know...



I am getting my information from SB. I am reading his words. And you will (or you should) feel embarrassed when you read SB's comments stating that he admits to abusing his wife.

It is childish and illogical to try to conclude that something is "wrong" with me because I am brave enough to ask the questions that no one wants to or perceptive enough to see the subtle clues in people's words.

After all the proof is here in the thread. SB admits to abusing his wife. My suspicion / question was dead right.

I was happy to read your update with the exception of this part:


Sir, you listed her sources of rejection as the following:
-spiritual
-emotional
-sexual

Yet you chose to look into the sexual "a little more"? May I suggest that you begin by looking into the first two before you look into that one. The first two are far more important and repair of these will likely lead to repair of the latter.

Good luck to you.

First, if I am your wife then all of the conversations "we" have been having about repairing "our" marriage is BS. If your wife is in this thread posing as me-she is deceiving you about being interested in a reconciliation. And, God along with your alleged efforts are failing horribly.

I intended to read and not post; however, I saw you were military and I read your story. According to my husband, during each Middle Eastern deployment he has been on-many of the troops have had this happen to them; a letter comes from their significant other basically saying, "You suck. It's over." With me being military, how could I not comment on your story?

If you actually read and interpreted my words for yourself rather just being a bandwagoneer, you would find that I am in agreement with you on this main point:

SB's wife was wrong to cheat on him.

I advocate leaving an abusive spouse; however, I do not agree with infidelity.

To be clear: There is absolutely no excuse for infidelity.

But make no mistake: The infidelity did not cause the marriage to disintegrate-SB still wants to maintain the marriage in spite of the infidelity. The infidelity was the wife's (inappropriate) response to a disintegrated marriage-The wife wanted out because of the abuse and chose an escape route that she felt was easiest.


This man has finally admitted to abusing his wife.

I'll say that again.


This man has FINALLY admitted to ABUSING HIS WIFE.


You all berated me for even DARING to ask the question, but so far-no one seems to notice that he has admitted to this...

Please explain this:



Are you saying your wife is not even acknowledging that the affair was wrong?



Please elaborate on this:

CS,

UGH!!! Thanks for all the disrespectful judgements packed into your two posts. I admit that my own DJs, SDs, and AOs, are abusive behaviors, which everybody at MB understands clearly as big love drains, and now I get you throwing that very important forward progress back at me in disrespectful and careless ways that negate any of the real progress at all. Deep down, I don't think you wish me success or marital recovery, but you'd rather make this about punishment. You can't hurt me more than I hurt for my wife and the mistakes I've made. I'm owning my own stuff and looking forward to reaping the benefits of abandoning childish ways and becoming the man I was supposed to be. You are not helping. Let me refer back to the discussion we had about planks and sawdust... Then let me ask you a few direct questions that require your radical honesty to be put into practice:

Has your husband or any other significant male in your life abused you? If so, how? How have you tried to communicate to him that he does this and how it hurts you? What was his response and are you seeing any progress in the frequency or severity of the abuse diminishing? Are you seeking professional help with dealing with the scars the abuse has caused? What has helped you the most? What can the abuser do to further your recovery if he himself is working to change? Are you willing and can you forgive him? What would that take and how long do you estimate?

Those are the questions I'm grappling with for my WW and if you can be helpful in answering these I'd be grateful. I hope she realizes that my own stupid instincts and fear-based controlling behaviors do not accurately reflect the love that I have for her. I also hope that she will acknowledge that the infidelity was not an appropriate response to the pain I've caused her and the lonliness she has felt for too long.

The only reason I cited the fact that I've never hit my wife was because I want to make a distinction about the type of abuse. The reason for mentioning that we've not argued since November is to record for myself where I really began to recognize the behaviors that were hurting my relationship and actively made a concerted effort to change them upon my arrival in Iraq. My WW will understand this.

Continuing to march. Persevering through this trial. Looking up toward freedom.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

Why do you hope I stick around?

As for your other comment: I do not know SB or his wife-at least not to my knowledge.

I guess I should have expected the personal attacks to commence. Sometimes, this is what happens when people tell the truth...

CS,



The reason I keyed onto the sexual part was because that's what she wanted to discuss most and what sounded most important to her and the way that I'd most rejected her in the past. I suspect that I never really knew how significant an emotional need she had for SF. I also think the reason she keyed onto it is to serve as further justification for the infidelity. Hard to say, that's why I need to dig deeper in that area to understand her placing such emphasis on it. I didn't choose to talk about it - she did. I'm just trying to investigate why!!! I concur that affection and conversation are likely more important to her than SF, but I want to be sure so I'm not wasting my time with needs that are not most important.

sbmmal

CS,

I know you are not my WW posting as someone else. I never thought you were.



She has only acknowledged remorse, not repentance. There is a significant difference and we're not there yet. Nevertheless, I believe we're getting closer with every passing day, of this I am certain. The infidelity is wearing on her and she know's it's wrong, just not willing to admit it to me in any way that makes her vulnerable.

The hopper concept has to do with really trying to process the information received from a wayward spouse in the middle of infidelity. Since much of it is lies and justifications, the truth is hard to come by and more concentrated efforts need to be made to understand what's really being said or intended. You put it in a hopper and see what falls out as truth - the rest is blown away as rubbish.

sbmmal

CS,



Nobody has a problem with the truth, not even me. Where I struggle with your comments is in the pride you take in humiliating me rather than supporting me and in taking credit for what Mrs. STOWaway actually achieved well before you did - serious reflection about my own personal behavior and its impact on the condition of my marriage. Further, I perceive in your posts an obvious inability to conceive that repentance can actually cause real change in another human being, which I feel is very troubling. If I can't be changed, why bother even posting your comments at all?

sbmmal

CS - I like to hear different opinions, that is all. We tend to all think in a similar way on this site, and it is quite interesting to hear other views.

Update:

I got off the phone about an hour ago with Jennifer Chalmers of MB. It was a very motivating hour and well worth the time and money... She hit hard and went very fast. I tried feverishly to take notes and understand how to apply her advice. I got some great insight into how to best utilize the two weeks of leave we'll have together and there are some bold strategies to implement to save my WW, my family, and my marriage, while preventing further destruction.

I am feeling more equipped as I head into leave and I'll be sure to keep you all posted as the situation unfolds.

As far as the conversion question between B and NSTN goes, here is my response. I have been a Christian since just before meeting my WW nine years ago. I have never loved Jesus like I do right now and I have never understood what intimacy with Him is about until now. Your prayers always appreciated. Be praying for Mortarman as well, as he is finishing the journey I'm only just beginning.

sbmmal

OK..I am seriously confused about this one: Exactly which one of my posts was "disrespectful"?



You asked:



Yes,I have been abused by a male. The unfortunate truth is this-Most women have. The statistics on female abuse at the hands of men are quite disturbing. You probably saw this when you visited that web site. If not, plenty of data on this tragic fact is publically available.

My story as far as that goes is this: I had a boyfriend in my sophmore year in college. He physically abused me one day while we were in his dorm room-nothing that caused any injuries-but abuse nonetheless. It was quite some time ago, so I am hazy on what led up to the incident. Shortly thereafter, I broke up with him and continued school. I did not attempt to communicate about it. Scars? Possible, but doubtful. I have forgiven and clearly forgotten long ago...

I had another experience with abuse, but it was happening to an (ex) friend of mine: She showed up for work with one black eye (right eye) & randomly placed bruises on her arms & back and claimed that she had been in a car accident-Another driver rammed into the driver's side of her car. No one believed her because they were aware of the history. Some people even laughed. (Apparently she was getting beat up before I checked into the command.) I tried to talk with her about it and she basically denied that he was abusing her. I told her that I was there for her and let it drop. She was prescribed some medication and I had to go to the pharmacy and them deliver it to her. I helped her by baby sitting occasionally.

Later, he tried to intimidate & threaten me. I found out that it was because he was afraid I would make an official complaint. It was also likely that he wanted to keep her isolated. One big shocker came when we worked the same shift and I had to ask for a transfer because she started harassing me at work.

This incident probably caused a "scar." It still pains me to think that people actually LAUGHED at this woman, and it bothers me that she treated me the way she did and also that she allowed him to come after me when I was simply trying to be a friend.

I know that this does not answer all of the questions you had about abuse but that's all the direct personal experience I have with it.

I can tell you what Lundy Bancroft (visit www.lundybancroft.com), a leading expert in Domestic Abuse, would say to your questions:

Communicating to an abuser how his abuse of his mate affects her is often ineffective ("You are hurting your wife....You are making her fearful...") This is because most abusers commit the abusive acts for the express pupose of achieving these affects. Once these effects have been achieved, they will have achieved CONTROL of the victim.

Abusers usually do not stop abusing-It's grim but true. Abuse is a very effective tool because often-the victim will be too humiliated or afraid to seek help / escape. This is why more than a few men use it.

There is hope though...A few abusers do stop but they have to want to stop. They have to admit that they chose to abuse their signifianct other and that nothing someone else did "caused" the abuse. They must admit that abuse is a choice. And then they must choose to stop.

As far as "how long" it takes for a woman to "forgive"-You need to know that it takes a great long while to truly recover from repeated and sustained abuse by an intimate partner.




SB-don't go down the wrong path: The damage caused by emotional abuse often rivals the damage caused by physical abuse. To be blunt: There is no distinction. Abuse is abuse. Bancroft says that often abusers attempt to minimize what they have done / are doing by comparing their actions to abuse that is allegedly worse.

Bancroft also reveals another surprising tidbit: Often the most abusive men are the first to condemn other abusive men.

I think that there is hope for you and your wife as long as you do not give in to the very real and natural urge to blame her (if even indirectly) for your choices. And as long as you do not entertain any illusions about what you did and why.

When I read this I shook my head...LOL:



Yikes!

From your perspective, what is the difference?

And

Why is important for you that she "repent"?

I am not here to "take credit" for your admission that you abused your wife. The credit for the abuse is yours... as is the credit for the admission. I simply said that my line of questioning was correct. I did this for the edification of those who commenced to attacking me for even daring to ask.








Your interpretation of my words surprises me. I have been saying from the very beginning that true change-in this case: a cessation of abuse / infidelity and a reconciliation of the marital relationship-can only come when both parties truly acknowledge their role in what happened.

I also specifically said that feigned / phony repentance leads only to more ruin.

I definitely am of the opinion that "repentance" without a true understanding of what happened and how to avoid the same situation in the future is the key for success in situations like this one and many others as well...

To be clear: Repentance combined with knowledge is as close as one can come to a guaranteed victory here.

Yes, I saw that tendency...Groupthink is real...and it is a real hinderance too.

SB, we'll say a prayer for you and your family tonight.

Countdown almost up to come home, right?

SBMMAL,

When Mrs.W was having her affair she called me "toxic" and "controlling". I was supposedly the GREAT manipulator of her. I controlled all the money, I questioned her spending, I wanted access to her email, etc. Mrs.W continually pulled up tidbits of historical marital facts, exaggerated them, distorted them, and massaged them into BIG issues that quite clearly further demonstrated such control and toxicity. My family was pyschoanalyzed. In the shock of discovering I was a BH, I, of course, wanted to work on myself quite intensely. Analyze and like most men FIX IT. I mistakenly truly considered her claims and even discussed changes in this controlling behavior with my then wayward wife. I was so willing and eager to DO the insight into my behaviors and change I was willing to consider any and all of her claims; HOWEVER, her claims were complete BUNK. I think she even said that above in this very thread. I was fairly certain I was OK, even then, but NOW I know exactly what that crap was all about (i.e. -her fantasy relationship with OM and giving OM the impression of saving the damsel in distress from a "toxic" husband).

I am neither controlling nor Toxic and I never was....I wasn't perfect...but I was and remain a very stable, loving and dependable, calm guy. I have improved due to MB but my issues were irrelevant to her immoral choices.

I was fortunate my wife was not in the fog long but I have seen many here dealing with longer-term affairs where the BS was CERTAIN of the labels placed upon them by the WS. Some have even endured years of being baited into altercations sufficient enough for the WS to make the claim and confuse the BS into really believing it themselves. Afterall they/you love your spouse and are used to listening to her and believing her perceptions EVEN WHEN THEY ARE UNKNOWN INTENTIONAL MANIPULATIONS. The BS is just so desparate to fix this and fix that they'll just list all the WS's allegations as "maybe true" lets hash this out. That's what I think is happening here. You weren't perfect...nobody was/is...but the "abuse" probably isn't the issue here. The issue is inside your wife.

Think about this rationally. Try to put your wayward wife's claims aside and consider what your actual wife would say. Consider what she said long BEFORE the affair. Consider what a rational outsider that knew ALL the facts would say. Consider what you think and feel. Discuss it with a trained counselor. I submit, IF, indeed, YOU ARE abusive or HAVE BEEN abusive to your wife as Spice Girl has magically perceived THEN consider Spice Girls advice and explore this issue deeper. You really must as a precursor to recovery. Otherwise, in my honest opinion...use the ignore feature given to you by the MB forum to block Spice Girl out as she has got you (or is trying to get you) focusing on a red herring and not the real crux of a plan to save your marriage. You are only 50% to blame for the problems in your marriage JUST LIKE THE REST OF US that have actually been through this...but 0% to blame for her affair. Fix this issue when you've got your wife back and you can honestly explore it with her.

Further, you came to MB to get advice on saving your marriage. That's what this thread is for. Get individual therapy to discuss the abuse if need be but it is likely NOT your primary focus here. For now. Some here can certainly address that issue and perhaps a separate thread from your main thread about SAVING YOUR MARRIAGE would be advisable. However, if you address her further and your thread becomes primarily about this side issue you may miss out on great advice from some real good posters that just don't want to wade into this minefield.

Sure work on you. Address things you need to change. That IS a vital part of Plan A....becoming the best individual, spouse and parent you can be. However, until you bust up the affair KNOWING what your wife (not your wayward wife) really thinks, feels and/or believes is impossible. Her statements and actions are ALL designed to manipulate you into YOU being the problem (blame shifting), to distract you (and herself) from HER being the probelm and to distract you from interfering with HER addiction. They are all rationalizations and justifications for HER behavior.

Spice Girl may be well intentioned...she just doesn't understand. I still think she may be your wife or someone that KNOWS you...she's just too excited about making YOU the issue and not as concerned about the fact your wife is having an affair.

Good luck & God bless,

Mr. Wondering <----so very NOT toxic, snicker

p.s.- If you ARE an abuser...please get help from a professional.

Okay,

Here's the situation. Wife filed for "dissolution with children" along with a petition for a temporary restraining order on 6/30/06 and just now got around to telling me when I called this morning, even though we've talked over 5 times since then. I think, but have not confirmed that MIL is footing the legal bill and helped her through the filing before returning to KS. All the while MIL was in town, WW was silent with OM as far as I can tell. Now it's like gangbusters again...

I layed out the MB mantra (care, protection, honesty, and time) to her and committed to that with her. I explained that she really needed a fresh start in a better place to be able to facilitate any recovery for herself or me and ensure no contact. I explained that I'd be willing to move her back to KS and help her establish employment while I was on leave. I was using Jennifer Chalmers' advice to flee the scene of the infidelity as an extraordinary measure so that she and DD could establish a new life together without the hazards associated with OM. She wasn't hearing it at all and then she told me that she'd made the filing. I need to consult a lawyer, 'cause apparently we have a hearing on the 28th, during my leave and I don't want to go.

What is the next step? Do I do a 180/PBL and remove myself from the situation and let her destroy her life with OM since she is so adamant that I'm trying to control her by talking about using my civil rights to stay the proceedings until I return from deployment? I am still scheduled to be home next week and all of a sudden she's "scared to be alone with me or allow me to be with DD." I think she's afraid I'll try and take DD, which I won't do. This is so CRAZY and wrong!!!

Do I sign the papers and return to Iraq to wait out the relationship with OM that is doomed for failure, or do I exercise my civil rights and stay the proceedings until I return from Iraq in November? I'm nearly at my end and in God's hands now for sure.

sbmmal

sbmmal

exercise your civil rights and DO NOT sign the documents if you want to recover your M.
The brutal truth is that if your ww wants to continue her affair, then regardless of what you sign or dont sign she will.
The only thing is that if you sign she will be able to hide behind the fact that you 'signed the papers' so in her reasoning "recognising the M was over in all but name" and she was 'free' to do whatever she wanted.

Continue to expose, get OM out in the open with his business partner re publicly exposing to the defence community & community in general etc, to get him gone from the scene if possible, and tell her you do M not divorce.

Yes consult a lawyer especially for access to your DD so she cant just take off. Ask Jennifer Chalmers' advice on if its now a good idea for you to get her to KS, what are the custody issues where she would move too, what are jurisdiction issues etc etc. You need to know those things just in case, though we hope it wont go that way.

Its really not much more than where you were before however it may mean she has been 'nice' to you to buy time. She may also be very uncertain if this is what SHE wants. I still do wonder if MIL is driving the agenda a bit here. Mr W's observations are very sensible and may be very accurate.

However you need to protect yourself and know where you stand legally now that she has filed.
Still proceed with your plan at the same time but perhaps with some changes.

Still will be praying for you & family.

AW

great post GW,

sbmmal...so sorry you are going through this.

GW is right on. Don't sign anything. Seek counsel. I'm betting coming home will only frustrate you further...she won't let you see DD without a court order and you submiting to jurisdiction.

I am very sorry. Don't panic. Stay calm. Act, Don't React. YOU will make it.

Eagle, FourthNail, Mortarman and countless others have been where you are. THIS is not the end of the fight.

Talk to an attorney

Mr. Wondering

I third the no signing motion.

A R/O seriously complicates Plan A. Do you know if you are forbidden from calling, or is it only against your personal presence?

Do whatever you have to do to see your DD while you are there, within the confines of the law, of course. Agree to supervision, jump through hoops, just see your daughter.

You will probably do this anyway, but keep your cool, expecting that you will be sorely provoked.

If you don't end up doing any more Plan A, you can be glad you did so very well with the chance you have had so far. A friend of mine who has spoken with Steve Harley on numerous occasions, has been told repeatedly, "You don't have to have completed every single change in order for them to be willing to take you back. You must have demonstrated a willingness to change."

You have done a lot to demonstrate that willingness to change, and have made huge progress. (I would like to reiterate Mr. W's thought that your IC, who knows you and knows much about your life that we don't, is going to be your best resource for determining what behaviors you need to change, and which may have been exaggerated. I also liked his idea of a separate thread to help keep you focused on your main issue.) Continue to work on yourself, but don't feel you need to be perfect before there is hope for your marriage.

If she agreed to go to KS that would be great, but I doubt she is ready to separate from her affair partner yet. It is still good that you brought it up, and started introducing the idea that eventually you will all need to move. (Once you are home you will probably not want to go/stay in KS, just because her mother has proven to be an enemy of the marriage, and unless she changes, you will not want her to be such a large part of your lives.)

Let us know what your attorney says, too, ok?

One foot in front of the other, and you'll make it through.

I was just thinking, even if you are not supposed to make phone calls, I doubt you have been stopped from sending your video (or whatever they are) messages. Find out all the provisions of the R/O, and then we can come up with some ideas of what you can still do.

Also, I think a good time for Plan B would be either just as you're ready to go back overseas, or a few days after you get back. It just depends on what everyone else thinks, and how much time you have to get your ducks in a row while you're home.

SB, you have said repeatedly that you have recognized that you were abusive and controlling towards your wife. You have also said that with God's help you are working towards making a change.

With the caveat that people do not change overnight,I have to show you something here:





Forgive me for pointing this out, but one aspect of your statement here sounds controlling. "let her destroy her life "???

SB, her life is hers to destroy if she sees fit.

You clearly have quite a bit of work to do, but it does not mean it's impossible or hopeless. I think that your behavior is so ingrained that it will take a certain amount of effort to "unlearn."

That being said, I will now say this:

SB, please PLEASE exercise your right to stay the court action.

You need time.

You need time for your emotions to level off so you can think with a clear head. You need time to prepare for the possibility of divorce and for how it could affect your life. You need time to truly make a change just in case your wife makes one too and decides she wants to give the relationship another try.

Do not buy into the idea that you exercising your right to a delay is more "control." If she speaks with you again and it comes up (it probably will), stress that it isn't about control. Explain that you simply need the time to adjust and to prepare for what may be to come. Point out that it is patently unreasonable to expect someone to come into the States on leave from a warzone and deal with something like that within a matter of days.

Here is some info I found about "dissolution with children." It's an easy read for non-lawyer types: http://www.courts.wa.gov/forms/forms_ins...lename=dischild

From what you have been saying it sounds like your wife is not interested in reconciliation at this point. Again-from what you have revealed so far-maybe she will never be. (This is another reason I say that you should exercise the stay option. The passage of time may serve to change her outlook on the relationship.)

Here is a possibility that you should be prepared for: The truth is that some women can never forgive their abuser just as some people can never forgive infidelity. In both cases it is trust -something that is as vital to relationships as oxygen is to mammals- has been damaged or destroyed. Unfortunately, some people's trust is more fragile than others...This is the chance taken by people who choose to hurt loved ones: There is the possibility that your relationship will be forever altered or-worse-come to an end.

You correctly tried to make this about you, her and the relationship, but you may need to make this about you for now.

Please forget about the other man. He is irrelevent. I am very confident in saying (actually- repeating) that he was simply your wife's excuse to vacate.

Make no mistake, her infidelity was wrong (This is something else which I am repeating). You are not responsible for it. You are; however, responsible for your own actions. And at the very least-you can use your situation to help you learn to abandon the practice of controlling and abusive behaviors within the context of your intimate relationships. That way if this one ends and another begins, you will be ready.

You said that there is a restraining order, but what kind is it? Does it prohibit you from contacting her in any way? If not, and you are sincere about what you said earlier, try to call / write during the waiting period and tell her that you love her, you are serious about making things work, etc.

SB I had another thought after reading your most recent post once more:

Try to do whatever you can within the limits of the law to see your child.

Also, do not agree to a dissolution. I am not certain, but I think that her actions of infidelity will hold more weight in a divorce and not as much -if any- in a dissolution.

One last thing: At this point it is more important than ever to remain calm and watch what you say.

A few points of order:

ABUSE:
*SB admitted to abusing his wife. This was not merely a "magical perception" on my part. I simply suspected that this took place based upon his words and asked him about it repeatedly until I received an answer.

*A discussion about saving his marriage must necessarily include a discussion -or, at the very least- an admission of his abuse. If you truly believe that abuse within the context of marriage is a "side issue" when the very existence of that marriage is threatened, then your belief system is seriously flawed.


RATIONALITY & THE "RATIONAL OUTSIDE OBSERVER":
*SB is in an emotional state at this point in his life-and understandably so. I find it curious that you ask him to think about this "rationally" as if he truly can (yet his wife-who is an equal stakeholder in this situation-somehow can't.) Newsflash: Neither party involved is feeling particularly rational at this time.

*You spoke of a "rational outside observer." Well, my perception is that you want a co-signer, not a rational outside observer. You, and other parties here, are taking bits and pieces of what is said for disagreement purposes while simultanoeusly ignoring points of agreement. For example- the idea that the infidelity IS NOT SB's fault. I am not sure how many different ways I must type that in order for you and others to comprehend that we are all in agreement on that particular point.

FALACIES OF LOGIC:
*Finally, your situation is not his. Just because your wife "falsely" accused you of abuse does not mean his wife's claims are false. In fact, SB's telling of the tale along with his admission that HE ABUSED HIS WIFE should serve as all the "proof" we need that this took place.

Specifically: If you are going to believe everything alse about SB's situation as presented by him -why do you choose to disbelieve him on this point?

[color:"red"] THIS IS FOR EVERYONE [/color]
I thought that the purpose of this board was advice, help, and support. We should not seek to relive our individual situations through SB. We should be honest / truthful about what we are reading in people's words-even if (no- especially if) something we are going to say may not be easy to swallow.

A few folks here did SB a big fat disservice by simply high fiving him when he talked about how his wife was this and his wife was that and how HE was going to do this and that to get his "wayward" wife back "to normal."

No one bothered to ask the hard questions, no one tried to help him sort out root causes. Everyone was so very busy trying not to upset / offend or they were too busy thinking about how THEY were wronged by a "wayward" spouse. So no one even mentioned (or noticed) the fact that his wife may not even want to get back together. We all concluded that she was crazy, disloyal, unfaithful, opportunistic....

YET when this crazy, disloyal, unfaithful, opportunistic woman decided to get on the phone with SB and make nice, we all said that things were looking up.

What is wrong with this picture????

He came here for good advice and was blindsided by a court action because he never saw it coming. He never saw it coming in part because of the reinforcement of his singular way of thinking courtesy of some of the people on this board.

Great post, C&S.

It is strange to me why a woman would file a RO against someone out of the country, unless she doesn't want to be caught cheating.

I hope that sbmmal will follow the law, and be very careful. Might be time to consult a military attorney to find out his rights.

[color:"red"]Thought I'd waste a few minutes, lol[/color]


A few points of order:

ABUSE:
*SB admitted to abusing his wife. This was not merely a "magical perception" on my part. I simply suspected that this took place based upon his words and asked him about it repeatedly until I received an answer.

[color:"red"]He admitted to NOTHING more than the typical DJ's, AO's, etc, admitted to by most every other BH that have come here admitting such as contributing factors to the underlying demise of the marriage. He has made NO indication of being a legal "abusive" husband. You make him sound like a wife beater. Like his wife has been cowering in fear of him.

However, we do have pretty solid PROOF, albeit from him, that his wife is abusive. Did you perceive in there that this is not her first affair. She's a serial cheater. I submit, INFIDELITY is the biggest form of abuse. Try this quote on for size: [/color]

[color:"blue"] [/color]

[color:"red"] You may not perceive this but that is a huge LIE considering we now know she is in continuance of her affair (beside assuming she IS spending his money on OM, directly and indirectly, she is also using his pay to hire attorneys to facilitate a divorce to be with OM. He was dead on with his mistrust...NOT ABUSIVE...though last week he may have thought he misbehaved. See how she flips and manipulates the facts to make Sbmmal feel like he is being controlling and "abusive". "I don't trust you and feel very betrayed"....yeah right...that's flat out abuse of sbmmal by his wife. HE gets my sympathy and compassion...NOT HER and her bogus claims he is abusive. I can see it...why can't YOU. [/color]

[color:"red"] Another thing she said (as reported by sbmmal)

[/color]

[color:"red"] Infidelities? How many??? No wonder sbmmal is running around trying to fix himself....she has been playing this game with him for years. Classic blame shifting. SHE WAS THE ABUSER in this relationship much more demonstrative of abusive behaviors than Sbmmal "admitting" he was "overly critical and feared intimacy".[/color]


*A discussion about saving his marriage must necessarily include a discussion -or, at the very least- an admission of his abuse. If you truly believe that abuse within the context of marriage is a "side issue" when the very existence of that marriage is threatened, then your belief system is seriously flawed.

[color:"red"] It is MOST LIKELY and OBVIOUSLY a side issue. He's got to fight for his marriage from around the globe. His family is under attack by OM and you are simply focusing on his issues (which I clearly stated he should explore) just not as the central theme of this thread. His abuse of her pales in comparison to HER obvious abuse of HIM. Now a divorce has been filed and restraining orders and you seriously want to explore the "TRUTH" of the claims in the obviously bogus Restraining Order....he's around the globe for Pete's sake. She's just rightfully scared HER LIES and DECEIPT are going to come to roost.

There are likely no statistics available but it is classic WW behavior to claim abuse and file crap like restraining orders to JUSTIFY their abuse and immoral choices. It helps feed the affair addiction (OM please save me...my husband is abusive) and it helps them SAVE face with family and friends and the COURT.

Lastly, why do you italisize the word "admission"...that's a legal term...mmmmm. Your focus on such seems odd. [/color]

RATIONALITY & THE "RATIONAL OUTSIDE OBSERVER":
*SB is in an emotional state at this point in his life-and understandably so. I find it curious that you ask him to think about this "rationally" as if he truly can (yet his wife-who is an equal stakeholder in this situation-somehow can't.) Newsflash: Neither party involved is feeling particularly rational at this time.

[color:"red"] I acknowledge his emotional state is likely not fully rational. I advised him to explore the side issue with appropriate professionally trained independent counselor. However, his rationality FAR exceeds that of his wife. She's on affair crack...fully addicted. She's a rat in a cage that keeps pushing the button to get her some OM. OM is her ONLY focus and she can't have OM unless she can rationalize and justify away Sbmmal. She must legitimize her relationship with OM, so Sbmmal must be abusive. She's been soooo adamant as she abused Sbmmal over the years with multiple affairs she's even got Sbmmal questioning it. Why wouldn't he...he loves her and trusts her. It is ALL very logical, just not that "rational". Sbmmal is not in an affair and can think more clearly than she....it is the strength that many a BS's utilize to save their WS from utter damnation.[/color]


*You spoke of a "rational outside observer." Well, my perception is that you want a co-signer, not a rational outside observer. You, and other parties here, are taking bits and pieces of what is said for disagreement purposes while simultaneously ignoring points of agreement. For example- the idea that the infidelity IS NOT SB's fault. I am not sure how many different ways I must type that in order for you and others to comprehend that we are all in agreement on that particular point.

[color:"red"]I basically told him to get rational advice from someone other than you. A professional or whatever. You just lack any experience in this matters (infidelity and abuse counseling) and are misdirecting Sbmmal. Of course, I think I'm right about Sbmmal and that he is NOT abusive. I left open the possibility of being wrong. If he is indeed abusive...I TOLD HIM ...DON'T DISCUSS IT HERE WITH LAYMEN...SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP [/color]

FALACIES OF LOGIC:
*Finally, your situation is not his. Just because your wife "falsely" accused you of abuse does not mean his wife's claims are false. In fact, SB's telling of the tale along with his admission that HE ABUSED HIS WIFE should serve as all the "proof" we need that this took place.

[color:"red"]My situation was layed out for Sbmmal's understanding and your education. It was not unique. It is the MOST LIKELY scenario as we herein see the same played out time after time AFTER TIME. We don't control the circumstances the BS arrive in we just recognize their similarities. Sbmmal has MOST LIKELY been abused to the point that he questions EVERYTHING about himself. He has been beaten down and YOU actually want to continue the beating by repeatedly repeating (redundant) his abusers very manipulation and abuse techniques on him. I/we are defensive of Sbmmal because we perceive you are perpetuating the harm inflicted on this man MORE LIKELY THAN NOT...BY HIS, er.."loving" WIFE [/color]



Specifically: If you are going to believe everything alse about SB's situation as presented by him -why do you choose to disbelieve him on this point?


[color:"red"]This is all he really admitted to:



[/color]

[color:"red"] He later "admitted" to DJ's, AO's and LB's in general. His admission are innocuous and generally the very same admissions that nearly every BH here shows up with. He didn't even know he was being abusive. Isn't it uncanny how he just so happens to perceive his own abusiveness WHILE SHE'S ABUSING HIM IN AN ADULTEROUS RELATIONSHIP and then characterizes such abusiveness as "relative" to her victim status as an sensitive child raised in an emotionally abusive home with detached parents. Please...Whatever.

Rarely are marriages bouncing along happily on a pile of money when, bang...infidelity. Most all have problems and usually 50-50 blame is involved. Sbmmal has "admitted" to NOTHING which I am choosing to "disbelieve". I know he has faults. Unfortunately (this isn't some gift I wish to have...I got it the hard way), I can "understand" exactly what he is "admitting" to cause I've personally been in his shoes. I understand he was a imperfect husband....in fact, we all were/are. [/color]



THIS IS FOR EVERYONE
I thought that the purpose of this board was advice, help, and support. We should not seek to relive our individual situations through SB. We should be honest / truthful about what we are reading in people's words-even if (no- especially if) something we are going to say may not be easy to swallow.



[color:"red"] I'm not reliving anything. I'm recovered and happy. No worries.

I am being honest. I HONESTLY feel you are perpetuating a disservice and distraction to Sbmmal's thread. Honestly, I perceive you to be a ball buster. I honestly think you likely have rank over men and the innate desire (and ability) to control men but are frustrated therein by an institution that covertly opposes your feminine authority. I honestly perceive some overcompensating tendencies. Even if Sbmmal's wife WERE here...I suspect you'd still focus wholeheartedly on his perceived "abuse" rather than her OBVIOUS greater fully known and actually revealed "abuse".

I apologize for my brutal and radical honesty about my inferences. Again, I think you may be well-intentioned....just wrong in THIS case. If you are who you say you are, I have great respect for you and what YOU do for our country...just not so much for what I believe you are doing to Sbmmal...your fellow serviceman [/color]



A few folks here did SB a big fat disservice by simply high fiving him when he talked about how his wife was this and his wife was that and how HE was going to do this and that to get his "wayward" wife back "to normal."


[color:"red"]His wife is a OM addict. We can NOT predict anything and everything an addict may do. She is not "normal" right now. She is possessed. We were hopeful but realistic and I think Sbmmal gets that...(even before she filed for divorce he clearly indicated the affair was likely still in full swing...he rationally considered she was likely and consistently LIEING TO him) [/color]



No one bothered to ask the hard questions, no one tried to help him sort out root causes. Everyone was so very busy trying not to upset / offend or they were too busy thinking about how THEY were wronged by a "wayward" spouse. So no one even mentioned (or noticed) the fact that his wife may not even want to get back together. We all concluded that she was crazy, disloyal, unfaithful, opportunistic....


[color:"red"] EXACTLY. Right now the underlying marital problems are indecipherable and he can't work on them UNTIL the ROOT CAUSE (BEING OM AND THE AFFAIR) is finished/ended/over. She IS crazy, disloyal, unfaithful and opportunistic. She is also very manipulative. She will do anything to maintain and deepen her affair with OM.

Plan A is about Sbmmal...it is not about "whether his WW wants to get back together or not". He will make it, with or without his WW he will make it [/color]


YET when this crazy, disloyal, unfaithful, opportunistic woman decided to get on the phone with SB and make nice, we all said that things were looking up.

[color:"red"] We were/are hopeful. The saying goes: "Believe NOTHING a WS says and only 50% of what they do. The fact they were communicating at all is beneficial to guiding a WS out of the fog. Every contact is essential. Just take it all with a grain of salt and move forward. Accept uncertainty is the creed. All things are possible through God. You can bet His will, will be done [/color]


What is wrong with this picture????

He came here for good advice and was blindsided by a court action because he never saw it coming. He never saw it coming in part because of the reinforcement of his singular way of thinking courtesy of some of the people on this board.


[color:"red"]Again, a WS is capable of anything, thus everything is foreseen. Sbmmal should always be protecting his backside legally. He is the only rational parent available to his child and when he gets back he should FIGHT for custody (another reason to stay the court proceedings as he clearly is not in any position right now to fight for custody...November...maybe). Such probabilities are clearly discussed in the many newbie threads Sbmmal should have read (which maybe he missed focusing on your abuse line of interrogation...lol). [/color]


[color:"red"]MY LAST AND MOST IMPORTANT POINT.

SBMMAL...I don't trust this situation. Spice Girl may not be your spouse but I still suspect she/he may be relevant to your situation. The last couple weeks your wife has been consulting with lawyers, she has filed for divorce, she has claimed abuse and filed restraining orders. Whereas, you just happen to be on-line on a public discussion board with a newly Arrival, Jr. Member that focuses only on YOU and only on your alleged and so-called but not thoroughly defined nor characterized, “ADMITTED ABUSE”. It's suspicious.

Although this is a public forum, your words here are supposedly copyrighted and inadmissible, however, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone attempt to insert and characterize your words herein against you in the divorce proceeding and/or custody hearing. For example, they could ry to impeach your testimony with your words herein to characterize you as a liar. Nowe, if you are abusive...IT SHOULD BE USED AGAINST YOU. If you are not really abusive as that term is used in the courts, as I perceive, I still fear a good attorney will try to twist your words herein in an attempt characterize you as such, irregardless of the truth. BE VERY WARY. [/color]

[color:"red"]Finally...Sbmmal please email me at the address below [/color]

[color:"blue"]Peace,

Mr. Wondering[/color]

[color:"red"]P.S. - I do have great respect and admiration for Believer within this forum. Her innate abilities of perception make me much more wary of my convictions above. What do you see Believer???...email me at OUR email address if you'd like to share. Did I miss something??? [/color]

I would be very curious, too. B, do you think something is off base?

SB, I am very concerned about your energy level. The affair-beast must die before your marriage has a chance. That is where your main focus needs to be at this point. Not neglecting your own issues, but keeping them more toward the periphery. There is a time and a place for everything, and your issues will have their turn at center stage when it is time.

Please email Mr. W, and take his insight into consideration.

Comrades,

Hooah from the foxhole in Baghdad! Operational security prevents me from releasing any information that may end up in the hands of the infidel. Suffice it to say, I am prepared for the road ahead and have been inspired by the successes of God in MM's situation in the last 24 hours.

Since the information in the legal documents was generated by the infidel, please allow me to elaborate on the truth in there...

The Ex-Parte Restraining Order stipulates the following:

The husband is restrained and enjoined disturbing the peace of the other party or of any child.

The husband is restrained and enjoined from going onto the grounds of or entering the home, working place, or school of the other party or the daycare or school of the DD.

Both parties will continue to pay financial obligations, blah, blah, blah...

Both parties will maintain current insurance coverage, health, life, auto, home, etc., blah, blah, blah...

The funny part of the story is that the R/O expiration date is today unless extended as it is only a 14 day order. Regardless, I'm going to CO to be with family so I can maintain appropriate distance from this madness. WW has pledged to allow me to see DD during leave, but I am very wary of everything just now and need some time to consolidate and reorganize.

There is a hearing on the 28th to establish temporary support agreements, but I am following the advice of all on this board reference exercising my civil rights so I can continue to focus my energy on staying alert and staying alive until I get back and out of the Army... I still have an obligation to my soldiers and this place ain't getting much less hostile.

NSYN, Mr. W, and B - You are all very perceptive and your steadfast support means the world to me right now. I need to recharge with family and continue to strategize about how to slay the beast of infidelity for the good of my family. These are the objectives of my leave and the reasons for needing to surround myself with people who love me and want me to succeed for DD and my family. This is what is called a tactical pause and it is sorely needed before continuing to march, looking up, and moving forward with God back onto both battlefields.

Many miracles await us in the Promised Land that follows this journey through the wilderness. I've said all I will be saying in this forum regarding controlling behavior and love busters. CS - Thanks for helping to fully-develop the discussion, but it is now time to let go and let God continue to work the issue in me and with me. Those issues are for my IC and I to discuss behind closed doors and I am still doing that and will continue until I have completed that essential transformation for myself. As it has been pointed out, now it is time to focus everything I am and will become on saving my marriage and family from the jaws of ruin and destruction.

"He will remove all of their sorrows, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. For the old world and its evils are gone forever" And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making all things new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true." Revelation 21:4-5

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

P.S. I have e-mailed Mr. W.

sb,

If i don't get a chance to write you again before you go on leave, keep up the good work. I have read your entire thread and it sounds like you are progressing.

I am in no place to offer advice, as my situation appears to be nearly as bleak, but I can offer support and prayer. The creator of all that is has big plans for all of us. I, like yourself have seen this deployment as a wake up call, and am answering with the same tenacity.

I draw much strength from your thread, as well as the advice you are getting from all of the other GREAT people here.

I wish you luck and hope you have a relaxing leave!

Believer, it is definitely time for SB to consult a lawyer, though I am not certain about what kind (military or civilian.)

If I were him, I would be hurt that my spouse cheated on me, and then I would be doubly hurt at their apparent dishonesty re/ the possibility of a reconciliation.

I am very concerned that a few folks here still don't get it: The infidelity did not cause the destruction of SB's marriage-the marriage was, in a sense, destroyed already. SB's wife attempted to use the affair as a quick & easy escape.

SB can bust up this particular affair; however, (IF the relationship somehow continues) there will likely be another affair, another dash for the door, or some other negative / inappropriate behavior if the root cause of the problem isn't uncovered and addressed.

The sad and bad part of all of this is the one sided perspective being provided by many of the respondents here: People here are telling SB that "the affair" is to blame for the break up of the marriage (as if "the affair is a separate living breathing entity), yet SB is perfectly willing to continue his marriage in the face of the affair.

When an affair "breaks up" a marriage it usually goes like this:
-One spouse cheats
-The other spouse finds out & files for divorce

Not:
-One spouse cheats
-The other finds out, tries to bust up the affair and tries their damnedest to get back in.

Thoughts?









Do yo have any ohter comments about my post?

Always. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I will not waste as much time as you. My responses will be brief...

Perhaps you missed this post from SB:


Sir, that sounds like an admission of abuse to me...What say you?

Also, the invitation you extended to Believer to talk about me on the side -while comical in a grotesquly dysfuntional sort of way- only serve to show that my comments are striking the string of truth on the banjo of your conscience.


I would like to assure everyone here that I am not SB's wife, nor do I know SB or his family personally. I am not a lawyer either... I would think that this particular fact would be obvious since I know about as much (or as little) about the legalities of his situation as anyone else here.

sbmmal,

This is my first time posting to you, and I wanted to say I think you are getting some great advice from long time MBers. After reading CS's last post, I felt I needed to take a moment to offer a suggestion.

Click on her username
In the right hand corner, click on "ignore this user"
Then, when she posts to you, you can't read what's in the body of the message

God bless you, and I wish you much love and luck with your situation. Thank you for protecting our country.

KM

CinnamonSugar,

Marriage Builders is a SUPPORT site. Support for those trying to save and/or rebuild their marriage using Marriage Builders Concepts and principles. As the intro to the Discussion Forums suggests, PLEASE familiarize yourself WITH these concepts..

thoughts? Ok, I'll bite.

CinnSugar,

It's very interesting how you signed onto the forums about the same time as sbmmal started posting and how you haven't posted on any other threads except this one.

It's also odd how you haven't shown much support for MB principle, particularly those applications to sb's situation.

Hmmm.

EMN.

Yes, SB should ignore me.

People usually make alot of progress by listening only to those that completely co-sign their point of view. just look all the positive things that have happened for SB so far...



[color:"red"] THIS IS FOR SB [/color]



The VERY LAST THING that I want to see is yet another military marriage broken apart.

Let me repeat that:

The VERY LAST THING that I want to see is yet another military marriage broken apart.

I promise to be an ear, I promise to tell you the truth (as I have been doing in this thread), and I promise to do any info search I can to help you. My husband is an Admin Chief, and I will ask him for any military info that could serve to assist you if need be.

I honesty think you have received and are still receiving crappy advice here...Actually-you can't call co-signing and high fiving with a few disparaging remarks about your wife thrown in for good measure "advice."

If you decline my invitation allow me to say this:

Please consider the fact that, despite what the folks in this thread have been saying, you probably should be focusing on YOUR behavior in the attempt to repair any relationship-especially a romantic one. This is true for one key reason: Your behavior is the only thing you have any real control over.

Justuss, I am familiar with the concepts, and I have concluded that high fiving does not qualify as support.


SB was blindsided because of all the "support" he received in this thread.

I was not communicating with you, but feel free to jump in...

It's very interesting how you chose to ignore my repeated posts about how and why I am here.






What's odder (is that a word?) is that almost all of the respondents here have made this thread about cyberbullying me into silence.

[color:"blue"]Fear not! It ain't gonna work. [/color]

Truthfully, I am not sure that SB is actually ready to put the principles into practice. To be honest, he gave alot of lipservice to self-change; however, underneath it all I perceive a continuing focus upon his wife's wrongdoing and getting his "Wayward Wife" back to normal rather than a desire to seek out and address root causes. "Normal" for them seemed to include him controlling her and her simmering about it. Why return to that ????

You know something, CS? You are totally missing the point.

SBBMAL is addressing the issue. He IS addressing HIS contribution to the breakdown of his marriage. He is recognizing those issues within himself, and by following God's Word and the MB principles, he is addressing them.

Yes, he said that he recognizes that his control issues may have been abusive. They may or may not have been what anyone else might call abuse. His wife has decided that his control issues were abusive, and maybe they WERE, for her. Bear in mind, though, that his wife was apparently raised by a mother who seems to have become hypersensitive to any hint of controlling behavior due to his wife's dad being abusive (from what SBMMAL says).

SBMMAL's WW appears to be a serial cheater. Hmmm! If SBMMAL was such a control freak, how in the world was she able to escape his scrutiny long enough to cheat...not once, but multiple times? She apparently wasn't afraid of his reaction, or she wouldn't have done it.

So, apparently, SBMMAL hasn't tried to isolate his wife from the world, as most abusers do. He says that he has never hit her. She has a career, so he isn't keeping her confined to the house.

So, I guess the thing we need to ask is HOW SBMMAL was being abusive, instead of basically telling him that he is a low-life dog for abusing his lovely wife, so no wonder she cheated! No, you didn't use those exact words; but, yes, that is exactly how you are coming across!

So, I have gathered that there have been financial issues in SBMMAL's marriage. Maybe he was being "controlling" by insisting that his wife not spend money they don't have or that they don't need to spend. There's nothing wrong with his wanting to protect his family's financial future!

Maybe, by having angry outbursts, he was being abusive. Yes, I agree that constant angry outbursts are not good, and that SBBMAL is responsible for controlling his actions. That's not to say that he was wrong for being angry, though. The angry outbursts may not even have been what most people would call abusive. We don't know what form his angry outburst took. Did he call her ugly names or curse her? Did he tell her she was stupid? Did he tell her he hated her? We don't know, and you don't, either.

CS, what you don't seem to understand about MB is that the BS is urged to look at him/herself honestly, recognize the problems he/she contributed to the marriage, and work to eliminate the lovebusters that he/she is committing, and generally work to become a better person...not just to win back the WS, but for him/herself, so that no matter whether the marriage recovers or not, the BS will recover, with or without the WS.

In the meantime, while the BS is working on him/herself, he/she must deal with the WS. The BS must do whatever he/she can to protect the family from the actions of the WS, while SHOWING the WS that he/she has changed. The BS who wants to save his/her marriage has to FIGHT for the marriage, not curl up and die over whatever wrongs he/she has committed prior to the affair(s).

So, since you have not experienced infidelity in your marriage, and you seem to be obsessed over what you seem to think is horrible abuse on SBMMAL's part, perhaps due to the abuse you suffered, I respectfully submit that you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

My control-freak, manipulative, and emotionally/verbally abusive FWH was the one who cheated on me. He became that way after he became a WS. I think that is usually the way it is, but it's certainly possible that I could be wrong about that. He's a lot better now than he used to be, but only because I've become stronger and won't put up with it anymore.

Anyway, spend a little time reading the different stories on MB. You might actually learn something about infidelity and abuse, other than from your own experience.

And, BTW, if you tried to help your co-worker the way you appear to be trying to help SBMMAL, I'm not surprised that she turned against you, even though I believe you were sincerely trying to help her.

LC

That right there is a perfect example of a 50-50 marital issue. He "controls", she submits and resents. Without more information the abuse you infer is completely missing. The marital problem looks pretty equal to me...they both are messing up.


Here is a great example:

A fictional husband seemingly "controls" his fictional wife by handling all financial matters. She doesn't even have a checking account and expresses NO dismay, argument or ill word about it (perhaps she occasionally wishes she had "her own" money to spend without scrutiny but no real consistent fuss is ever made). In fact, the husband has steadfastly attempted to get the wife involved and she chooses not to.

That is not unhealthy "control" it's just the way some spouses choose to live. If both parties are fine with it...so be it. However, IF the wife secretly resents it (i.e.-simmers about it) and FAILS to say anything about such resentment...then right there you've got your 50-50 marital problem. Husband is controlling and wife is resentful...but neither of them really know what they are doing to their marriage, how to discuss it or ever resolve it. They both "conflict avoid" the issue. The husband just does it cause he's always done it and has no idea the wife resents it. Their combined failure to recognize they have a marital problem demonstrates their lack of MB principles and lack of genuine real intimacy. In no way is this abuse, by and of itself, on the part of either of them.

However, after years of silent and "simmering" resentment the wife then undertakes to commence an affair. NOW all of the sudden the financial "control" her husband has exercised over the years becomes an "abusive" "toxic" controlling issue. The wayward wife NOW utilizes this issue to draw in her paramour (save me from this contolling abusive idiot) AND to rationalize/justify her huband out of the picture. Husband, now hurt and destroyed by his wifes betrayal, infidelity and ABUSE becomes insecure and vulneralbe to criticism. Again NOW all the sudden he "WAKES UP" to his wife's resentment of the financial control he'd been exercising all along and "feels" complete guilt, remorse and stupidity for failing to recognize it earlier. Because he loves and still trusts his wife, these newly revealled accusations prompt him to commence introspection and even he concludes he was "controlling" and thus abusive. He apologizes, he admits HIS failure, he does ALL he can to inform his wife he's ready and willing to change. "Honey, you do the books....I'd be glad to put you in charge...just come back to me". Of course, wife see's that as desparate and needy. "NOPE...to late", wife says, "you should have read my mind back then or taken the one or two hints I dropped over the years and changed back then...it's ALL YOUR fault...I'm gonna keep having my affair whether you like it or not CAUSE I DESERVE IT after all the abuse I put up with".

Finally, after a time, with the affair out in the open and not so fun anymore the affair is busted up and marital reconciliation commences. Drastic changes in the marriage are made but guess what....they POJA the financial issues and low and behold the wife wants absolutely nothing to do with the financial decision making for the family. She wants her husband to control it all AGAIN.

You see...it's not all about the husband, it's not about the abuse. Sbmmal's wife is having an affair because she choose to behave immorally and corrupt her integrity. It's really ALL about the affair and the wayward spouse. The basic MB concepts of Love Busters are not intended to be characterized and analyzed as "abuse". LB's and abuse are not one in the same. Sbmmal's relationship most likely lacked intimacy and communication, that's it. With MB principles and skills they could have avoid any problems with the financial control issue by addressing their needs, issues of control and resentment regularly. These are normal everyday issues in every marriage.

In conclusion, until Mrs. Sbmmal pulls herself out of the fog neither you nor I have any way to really determine if Mrs. Sbmmal was really "controlled" and/or abused despite sbmmal's early misguided focus on the issue. WS's bring it up cause they want to understand the "why's????" of the affair. The affairs MAKE no sense to them and they so badly want to know and fix what THEY did. Right now...IT IS, all about what SHE DID and that's what this INFIDELITY forum is designed to assit sbmmal with.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - BTW, the above financial control issue is derived from my fact pattern. It's not some story I made up. I lived it and it happens most all the time around here.

Step one: Bust up the affair (pull crackhead MrsSbmmal from the jaws of her addiction to OM for the sake of Sbmmal, their child AND, in fact, Mrs.Sbmmal-she needs saving and apparently Sbmmal wants to save her)

Step Two: TOGETHER fix the marriage.

Actually, there seems to be a great deal of consensus among professionals in the psychology, sociology, and law enforcement fields as to what domestic abuse is. Here's a good example

Physical Violence
____ Slap, punch, grab, kick, choke, push, restrain, pull hair, pinch, bite
____ Rape (use of force, threats to get sex)
____ Use of weapons, throwing things, keeping weapons around which scare her
____ Abuse of furniture, things in the home, pets, destroying her things
____ Intimidation (standing in the doorway during arguments, angry or threatening gestures, use of size to intimidate, standing over her, outshouting, driving recklessly)
____ Uninvited touching
____ Threats (verbal or nonverbal, direct or indirect)
____ Harassment (uninvited visits or calls, following her around, checking up on her, embarrassing her in public, not leaving when asked)
____ Isolation (preventing or making it hard for her to see/talk to friends, relatives, others)
____ Other (please list)

Psychological and Economic Abuse
____ Yelling, swearing, being lewd, raising your voice, using angry expressions or gestures
____ Criticism (name-calling, swearing, mocking, put-downs, ridicule, accusations, blaming, use of trivializing words or gestures)
____ Pressure Tactics (rushing her to make decisions, using guilt/accusations, sulking, threatening to withhold financial support, manipulating children, abusing feelings)
____ Interrupting, changing topics, not listening, not responding, twisting her words, going on and on
____ Economic coercion (withholding money, the car, or other resources; sabotaging her attempts to work)
____ Claiming "the truth," being the authority, defining her behavior, using "logic"
____ Lying, withholding information, infidelity (having sex with others)
____ Using pornography (e.g., magazines, movies, strip shows, home videos, etc.)
____ Withholding help on childcare/housework; not doing your share or following through on your agreements
____ Emotional withholding (not expressing feelings, not giving support, validation, attention, compliments, respect for her feelings, rights, and opinions)
____ Not taking care of yourself (not asking for help or support from friends, abusing drugs or alcohol, being a "people-pleaser")
____ Other forms of manipulation
source: http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/LearnMore/checklist.php

The other thing is this: SB did not say he "may" have been abusing his wife. He said that he DID abuse his wife. Your comment seems quite foolish in light of this fact.

You should not be surprised that my friend turned against me. Often battered and abused women behave this way. They alienate friends and family in order to protect their abuser. They will do this up until the moment they decide they have had enouogh-then their friends and families are their greatest allies.

Here's why: Battered & abused women have a difficult choice to make-admit what's happening, stop keeping it secret, and face the possibility of being seriously harmed or even killed by their abuser, financial disruption, the break up of their family and-last but not least-dealing with the "maybe" sayers like you (maybe he wasn't abusing you in the true sense of the word...maybe it's your fault...) or they can adn do choose to hope against hope that the guy realizes he is wrong and just stops.

My ex friend is not a testimony to anything other than the hard choices that battered and abused women face everyday.

I find your screen name to be highly appropriate.

Thoughts? Yes. This site is testament to the fact that you are dead wrong on all counts and don't have the slightest idea about the impact of infidelity on a marriage.

The people YOU perceive as "not getting it" are living breathing testaments to your wrong opinion.

uh oh, CS, seems like you are "abusing" sbmml according to this standard. Perhaps you need to get some help for yourself since you are an "ABUSER" according to your own posted standard? What say you, hon?

Have you considered counseling for this?

Wow-I love fiction, and that was most certainly a very interesting read.

But...I really don't see how a fictional tale based upon what happneded to you proves anything with regard to SB's situation. We can already see his situation is markedly different than yours by virtue of the fact that his wife appears to be uninterested in maintaining a marital relationship with him.


The realization that both parties must be interested in keeping things going and working on their own mistakes seems to escape certain folks in this discussion.

Another item which sems to be forgotten here: The success of such a difficult undertaking hinges upon both parties being determined to dispel any illusions about what the real problems are. I see you (and others) as encouraging the continuation of fantasy rather than fact for SB, and this will not help him.

It may make him feel good while he is reading the thread, but he will have singular and patently unrealistic expectations of his wife's intentions / behaviors and he will be unable to predict if and when she will attempt to run his [censored] over with another mack truck.

Sugarplum, if you are going to accuse me of abusing SB you will need to provide examples.

My dear CS,

I understand quite a lot about abuse, thank you very much!

I do not claim to know it ALL, but I also think you are foaming at the bit to turn Sbmmal into this horrible person that you are implying he is.

And, BTW, my screen name is Lady Clueless because I am married to LORD Clueless!

I am of the opinion that infidelity is very destructive to a marriage in most cases.

-Trust has been damaged / destroyed, and the wronged spuse may find themselves unable to forgive.
-There is the chance of disease (possibly fatal disease.)

In this particular case, I believe that the infidelity is a symptom rather than a cause.

I believe that if his wife were willing to disavow the other man and agree to get back together-the problem would be solved as far as SB is concerned.

I think that if this were to happen now, there would be yet another affair later on down the road.

It is just my opinion and I am entitled to it, and no amount of cyberbullying or bandwagoneering will make me change my mind.

And, sadly, we see you "claiming the truth" and "defining behavior, using logic." "Criticism." This is yet another example of this ABUSE, SugarBritches.

We only bring this up, because wouldn't it be silly to get caught engaging in abuse YOURSELF while you accuse others out of the other side of your mouth!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> BIG EEK!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I am not a foamer. I simply don't see things the way that you do.

SB is not a horrible person, he is someone who needs to work through his issues in a realistic and honest way-just like everyone else.

I never claimed to be using "logic"-LOL! (In fact, one of the cyberbullies used that word in his post...) My posts consist of my opinions .

Using words like Sugarbritches in tandem with emoticons is a clear sign that you have run short on cogent responses to back up your point of biew.

Infidelity is very destructive to a marriage in ALL cases.

But it doesn't mean that there has to be a divorce. I tried the program here, and it didn't save my marriage. However, the advice to work on myself worked!

I've been reading and posting here for 3 years. There have been a whole lot of success stories.

I never claimed to be using "logic"-LOL! (In fact, one of the cyberbullies used that word in his post...) My posts consist of my opinions .

Using words like in tandem with emoticons is a clear sign that you have run short on cogent responses to back up your point of view.

Sigh! CS, you still don't get it! A LOT of WS are uninterested in maintaining a marital relationship with their BS. When Mrs. Wondering was in her affair, she was uninterested in maintaining a marital relationship with Mr. Wondering.

I hate to say this, but you are making an absolute fool of yourself.

You know NOTHING about infidelity.

You know NOTHING about how to HELP anyone.

You ARE an abuser to Sbmmal.

You are continuing to harangue him about what YOU have apparently deemed to be some kind of horrible abusive behavior on his part. I'm not saying that he did not engage in some kind of controlling behavior, but I do not believe that he was intending to be abusive.

You persist in trying to embarrass him and ridicule him for trying to win back his WW.

You apparently THINK you know it ALL, although your lack of understanding is sadly lacking.

You are constantly putting him down.

Yes, MelodyLane is right. YOU are an abuser.

Leave Sbmmal alone. Go torture your own H instead of somebody else's!

I am sure there have been many success stories.




I disagree. There are many marriages that remain intact in spite of infidelity. You may look to your own generation for examples of that. I have also read the founder's claim that some marriages are even stronger after an episode of infidelity; therefore, I do not agree that infidelity is destructive to ALL marriages.

I can see why you hoped I kept posting: You want me to take the hits.

of course SugarBritches, you would consider SugarPlum a compliment? Who did you say has run out of cogent responses again?

YET ANOTHER example of "abuse!" This would be claiming "the truth" using "logic" to "define" my behavior. [oh wait! I forgot you deny you USE logic, WE AGREE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />] And "Criticism!" Now, sugarbritches, let's not try and deny what we all can clearly see here. ABUSE!! You are defining behavior again just as you have been all through this thread. You and I both know, ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN POSTIE, that this is "ABUSE!"

Let's look at it again:



AND


WHOOPS!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

[wanna rag to get that egg off your face? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />]

lol...no, really, LOL.

Like Mrs.W at the time she was undertaking her affair and continuing it for 6 weeks post D-day because she was so interested in maintaining a marital relationship with me.

When OM "broke up" with her she wanted to pack up and leave me to be with him. Fortunately, OM said "NO". She was thoroughly and completely addicted to him. There is NO difference, 'cept, unlike Sbmmal YET, I was able to put pressure on the affair and single OM went off to pursue more suitable, moral and easier opportunities. A divorce filing may have been immiment (sp?), thank God, we'll never know nor do I care whether Mrs.W would have been able herself to end...who ended is really irrelevant. All that matters is that IT ends/ended, then see what can and likely will happen given TWO motivated and willing spouses.

W

How am I "harangue-ing" SB???? He hasn't even been a participant on most of these posts now...Most of my posts are now addressing all of the cyberbullies in here.

A word or three of caution: You cannot know what SB's intentions were. You, like the rest of us, must go by what he has said. And-he has said he deliberately tried to control his wife. He has also said that he abused her (which you read as maybe he did not,and MrWonderful did not read at all). He has said that she cheated. He has said that she appeared to be warming up to a reconciliation, and then he said she filed a court action.

Those are the facts m'aam.

I challenge you to find a post where I am "ridiculing" SB.


I am about to ridicule you though: Based upon what you just posted, I can imagine you stomping your right foot with a pacifier in your mouth at this very moment.

OT, somewhat:

There is a reason why there is a group consensus here, and it has nothing to do with group-think.

Picture a gold panner. He digs into the earth, lifting shovelfuls of material out of its comfort zone, and putting it all in the same pan. He agitates it, and the same force of gravity works on each piece of gold in the pan, drawing it into the same place.

When he is done, he has a nice collection of gold. Not one giant nugget, all homogenous and lumpy, but small pieces of gold which, by going through the same process - A PROCESS PROVEN OVER TIME - arrive in the same place. No, not identical, but having much in common.

This is not group-think. This is gold, tried in the same fire, tested through the same experience, and coming out the other side with a very clear picture of what works, because we have lived it.

That is not called group-think. It is called unity.

Well...I guess that settles it then-I hope that the same happens in this situation so SB's life can get back to normal.

Try destructive in ALL cases. Which is not to say marital recovery is impossible. But an affair is always destructive.


Funny though isn't it that there were was no visible marital dissatisfaction on the part of the wife until she had an affair. But I do agree that any marriage is in danger of a repeat affair if the conditions in the marriage which led to the affair are not addressed. This case is no different to any other.


Definitely the marrital problems need to be addressed. Do not for a moment assume you know what is really going on in this marriage. I suspect it is not as cut and dried as you assume.


Hmm. You need to practice what you preach.

You have abused me twice with name calling-LOL!


No more replies from me to you unless you have something intelligent to contribute. (Note: I, unlike you and a few others here, do not define "intelligent" by whether you agree with me or not.)

tsk, tsk, tsk.. "cyberbullies," huh? To my great sadness I have identified yet another example of ABUSE, ie: "critism" and "claiming truth" to "define behavior." This is most alarming, hon. If you would like a link to see a list of abusive behaviors, I would refer you to:

http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/LearnMore/checklist.php

By the way-britches are not my style- [color:"red"] thongs[/color] are.

More of the same. Sigh......................

Now we are into DENIAL, aren't we? Can I point you to a link that you, as an abuser, might find helpful? We are just trying to help you with your abuse problem, CS. Don't fight it, dear.

Honesty is the FIRST STEP in recovery!

http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/LearnMore/checklist.php

Um Hello CS. Really, YOU started the name calling. Sheesh.

True...except...what about all of the other affairs she had?


Let's not forget, many men will ignore their wives outward displays of dissatisfaction up until the moment that they receive the divorce papaerwork. 66% of all divorces are intitiated by females.

"I never saw it coming" is a common claim on the part of the males...

Prove that claim.

I made a fun MB poll about whether WS's are interested in the marriage.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There ya go Hon. Your own words.

NOW HEAR THIS:

It takes banding together by all of you to try to "fight" my opinion?

Well, I am flattered- and I will be back tomorrow, or perhaps the next day, to continue to express my opinion.

where you first started name calling with ML

Interesting...The Nazi's said the same thing.

Wow, Neak and Nazi do both start with 'N'. Uncanny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

He certainly doesn't seem to be a horrible person; in fact, he appears to be a rather sweet and loving person. As for his issues, he came to the conclusion that some of his behaviors may have been abusive BEFORE you arrived on the scene and without (gasp!) your help!

Look, you need to understand something. There is not much anybody can get away with on MB. It is not all slapping hands and high-fiving each other. We are supportive of those who are diligently trying to save their marriages, but we will certainly come down on those BS who are as foggy in their thinking as their WS.

Not everyone will save their marriages, but most people who follow the MB principles will certainly make PERMANENT improvements in themselves; and,of these people, those who find new loves and go on to new marriages are much better equipped to build a happy and loving marriage with their new spouses.

So what if Sbmmal's WW isn't interested in staying married to him RIGHT NOW? By following MB principles, he will learn how to be a spouse that almost ANY woman would be happy to be married to...including his wife, once she sees that he has indeed changed into a man she could be PROUD to remain faithful to.

Sbmmal is already seeking help with his issues, I believe. I believe that he has let you know that YOU are not the person he needs to have "help" him.

I don't know what your occupation is, but I don't think you are a psychiatrist, psychologist, or therapist. If not, then you do not have a license to practice.

Go read around MB. Yes, LEARN something about infidelity before presuming to give ANYONE marital advice.

A little paranoia tonight? That is a typical trait of an abuser, CS! I know you don't want to face it, but trust me, THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!

Acceptance that you are an abuser is the FIRST STEP in recovery. We are here to help you!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am beginning to think that this thread is now about something else other than SB and his problem.

This has taken on a very juvenile flavor.

I see that several people have tried to join in an attack of my opinion-some have made it a personal attack by claiming I must be SB's wife, a friend of SB's wife, SB's wife's lawyer, or an alien from the planet Zeta Reticulii.

No more responses from me on comments about me ; however, I will continue to read and respond to questions and comments about SB's situation.

I would invite anyone who finds my opinions to be offensive to use the ignore option.


Have a great night.

Yes, it fits in with your theories about my "secret" identity-LOL!

Oh dear, even more examples of abuse. I wonder if calling people "Nazi's" qualifies as abuse? Let's look at a special list that someone posted for us, shall we???


Psychological and Economic Abuse
____ Yelling, swearing, being lewd, raising your voice, using angry expressions or gestures
____ Criticism (name-calling, swearing, mocking, put-downs, ridicule, accusations, blaming, use of trivializing words or gestures)
____ Pressure Tactics (rushing her to make decisions, using guilt/accusations, sulking, threatening to withhold financial support, manipulating children, abusing feelings)
____ Interrupting, changing topics, not listening, not responding, twisting her words, going on and on
____ Economic coercion (withholding money, the car, or other resources; sabotaging her attempts to work)
____ Claiming "the truth," being the authority, defining her behavior, using "logic"
____ Lying, withholding information, infidelity (having sex with others)
____ Using pornography (e.g., magazines, movies, strip shows, home videos, etc.)
____ Withholding help on childcare/housework; not doing your share or following through on your agreements
____ Emotional withholding (not expressing feelings, not giving support, validation, attention, compliments, respect for her feelings, rights, and opinions)
____ Not taking care of yourself (not asking for help or support from friends, abusing drugs or alcohol, being a "people-pleaser")
____ Other forms of manipulation
source: http://www.menstoppingviolence.org/LearnMore/checklist.php

This is mighty, mighty sad, Sugarbritches. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Have a question! Do you think an "ABUSER" who is in denial can be any help at all to another alleged "abuser?" Can the blind lead the blind? hmmmmm

I'm Hungry. I think that cinnamon sugar toast is almost ready. Neak?

Just a quick google search away:


That's it.

Sbmmal is NOT an abuser. NO examples anywhere near the above have been given.

He's a devastated and confused betrayed husband currently on military assignemt in BAHGDAD, IRAQ. He REALLY needs to focus on getting sleep, exercise and KEEPING HIS (and his unit's) COLLECTIVE BUTTS ALIVE.

W

Psychological and Economic Abuse:
____ Yelling, swearing, being lewd, raising your voice, using angry expressions or gestures

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> This does not look good, folksesesesesess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

The oven is set to broil, lol.

So SB, what can we talk about today? Do you have any last-minute thoughts, worries, etc., as you get ready to come stateside?

I think staying with your parents is good. How far from there to get a visit with your DD?

I think it's time we all started cooking!

My favorite recipe at the moment:

"Drunk Chicken"

Take one plump hen, remove her innards.

If desired, you can make a dry rub with pepper, CINNAMON, and brown SUGAR. Rub it all over the hen, both inside and outside.

Open a can of your favorite beer. Take a swig if you like beer.

Holding the chicken right side up, shove the opened end of the beer can right up her @$$.

Set the hen in an upright position on the grill (you don't want the beer to spill!), and cook over medium hot coals until hen is done and her leg practically comes off when you pull it. She should be well-browned and juicy.

Enjoy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

CS... you come on here as some expert about HIV... where are you getting your information???? Because I will tell you that it is about as far off as possible.

According to Johns Hopkins University... perhaps you heard of that institution... the average "incubation" period from the time someone is infected with HIV and they develop AIDS symptoms is 10 years. This is an incubation period for symptoms... not the ability to be tested. That time frame is as follows...

HIV
The window period for HIV is usually 2 weeks to 3 months, but could be up to 6 months.


Most will test positive within weeks if they have been exposed to the virus. Some will take up to 6 months but this is exceptionally rare.
In addition, you come on here and seemingly post no where else but this thread... what is your fascination with this man??? What brought you to MB... you said you were on the site before but did not realize there was a forum here... I think that is a lie.

You obviously have an agenda to tear people down. Perhaps that is why you are here??? I would suggest... not that you are open to suggestion from the tone of your posts... that you tone down your "act" and let on what you are doing on an infidelity recovery site. Get tired of abusing your husband??? Decided it was time to take out your frustration on another man?

ALL,

Holy catfight, batman! Please, stop this nonsense. I'm done with CS and her line of questioning in a public forum, and this juvenile back and forth is really distracting to the purpose of this thread. Not to be controlling or abusive or anything, but please stop responding to CS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

NSYN,

Thank you for asking. I am really looking forward to leave. I think it'll be great to get back to Colorado. I miss it so much and WW and I had always talked about going back there as soon as my time in the Army was up. I may do a little house hunting while I'm back there. Hard to say since now I'm torn because I want a solid relationship with my DD, but if she's in WA, that'll suck for me to be anywhere else. Praying for God's will here...

While I'm home, I'm definitely going back to my church of origin. It's where WW and I really began our relationship over 9 years ago and where I was the most on fire for God. I was baptized there while in college at the Colorado School of Mines and my parents came, which was pretty cool, especially having my Mom there to experience a different kind of church. The church is called The Next Level Church and it is really focused on being relevant with it's messages while delivering solid biblical truth. I've included a link for anyone who's interested in finding out more.

Other good news to report. I'm looking at a great job opportunity at the Washington Department of Ecology when I return that could turn into my own small business on the side... I'm almost guaranteed to continue making at least what I make now, which ain't too shabby for a state position and it'll allow me to spend more time at home. My current civilian employment is in Seattle and I have to ride the train an hour each way, so days are 13-14 hours long and exhausiting. Bottom-line: This too shall pass and I will be fine with or without her.

I filed some paperwork with my lawyer tonight. Financial declarations and my exhibits on proposed division of property. Requested that she get the house, with the $80k in equity we built <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />, and the mortgage loan. Also requested she pay for my counsel and all legal fees related to the dissolution. I don't want to participate in something I don't believe in. Before this begins another heated debate, here's what I'm thinking on this and where I'm stepping out in faith and believing for a miracle in the situation with complete peace:

You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. Matthew 5:38-42

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on Earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourself treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matthew 6:19-21

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not lie, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself'"
"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again, I tell you it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Matthew 19:16-26

I'm believing for God to make the impossible (shoving my camel through the eye of a needle) possible in my life. Just kidding about the camel. I don't have a camel here in Iraq - I do have a HMMWV though and I'll bet'ya God could make that fit if He wanted to... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Feeling peace about pulling away from my wife and the chaos of the situation she's put us in. Thankful for the Federal Law that protects me from getting strung out while deployed. I'm not quite sure, but I think that my PBL may be in order based on some reading materials Mr. W gave me and the type of A my wife is in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the insights and information... I'd love to hear some feedback on that! Either way, I'm looking forward to a relaxing couple of weeks that are well-deserved if I do say so myself.

I'll be in touch when I get to the homeland!

God bless you all. Even and especially you CS, WW, DD, and OM.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

Excellent decision and advice, SB. Invisible. Inaudible. Inlimbo. OK, I made that one up...but it works. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

I'm a spouse of a retired Army guy. I've found that the family support groups can put a lot of pressure on people. I've never really been a huge advocate of the family support groups because most that I've become involved with just seem to be a gossip party-although I've seen a couple of great ones. If you can withstand the pressure that gossip tends to cause-this is a really good way to expose her. Although no one from the support group may put direct pressure on her as far as the affair, the gossip will eventually get back to her and also the opinions of other people. Maybe if she gets enough negative feedback about what she's doing to you and your daughter from someone other than you, it could possibly open her eyes and help lift the fog? I know the statistics are challenging with the military lifestyle and I know how difficult it is to maintain a relationship during deployments, but it can be done-but takes both parties involved to make it work. My husband and I have been married for 18 years and during his career, he wasn't home very often. I can tell you from first hand experience that this affair probably started from her emotional needs not being met. It does get lonely. It's not your fault though-kind of hard to support her emotional needs from a distance. But you also have to realize that she made a decision when she married you to live the Army life and sometimes I really don't think spouses realize what type of lifestyle they are dedicating themselves to in this situation. I know it's also hard to get your chain of command to work with you as far as taking leave when you're deployed too. But go to your BN Commander and talk to him/her. You never know-you may strike a personal chord with them and they may try to work with you. Another thing you should be aware of(don't know how much your wife knows about the Army), but if you start causing a ruckus with the OM, she can also result to manipulating you through your chain of command(whether or not anything she tells them is truthful and honest, she can still make your career miserable for a while). So, cover all of your bases, make sure that your chain of command knows what is going on. I know it can be embarrassing, but which is more important-your pride or your marriage? I've seen way more of this kind of stuff during my husband's career than I have ever wanted and I truly hope that you guys can come up with a way to get your marriage back on track. I'll be praying for you. And thanks for your service to our country. It's appreciated more than you'll ever know.

4rabbits

[color:"red"]So, cover all of your bases, make sure that your chain of command knows what is going on. [/color]

VERY sound advice !

Pep

sorry for the distraction, sbmml! It was just too tempting for my ornery soul. Take care, my friend, and God Bless. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, SB!

Little bit of a threadjack here ... I used to go to TNL when I lived in Denver -- Loved it! That was quite a few years ago, when Trevor was the pastor, and they didn't have their own building, so they were meeting in a couple of other churches on Tuesday nights, only (no Sundays back then).

I've missed it, it was definitely a great experience. Hope you get to make it back there while you're home!

-AmI

I am glad that you were able to put the emotions on the backburner & think about your life and yourself .

My advice would be this:

-Document everything : Child and spousal support payments, visits with your daughter (keep a visitation log), and anything else you can think of which if twisted / misconstrued / misrepresented could serve as legal weaponry against you.

-Seek professional help outside of Church for controlling / abusive behavior. If you don't, you may select the same type of woman and set up the same type of situation for the next round -or worse-repeat the cycle all over again. Things like this do not happen by accident.


Good luck to you and your troops. Stay safe.

Sbmmal,
Are you around ever - did you make it home? How are things???

MSA

MSA,

I am still around - thanks for thinking of me... I'm sitting in the DFW airport right now on my way back to the sandbox for three more months. Leave was pretty awesome, and some progress was made on delaying the divorce and reminding WW of who I am becoming. I am pretty sure I am making a great impression, but I know there is still a long road ahead and that the battle will continue to rage in Iraq and at home. I'm still working the Plan A and trying to build my relationship with my daughter.

In the meantime WW's best friend has begun an EA/PA on her husband (again) and my uncle is in an online affair with one of his old flames. Both marriages are in shock and things are not looking good from the temporal perspective. Spirit of division attacking??? I'm trying to focus both on understanding MB principles, having faith in the unseen, and working to save their marriages... There are some big opportunities to help slay the beast of infidelity in other marriages and reap the rewards in my own.

I got to see my DD once and spent about 6.5 hours with her in Garden City. It was awesome - she is so amazing and beautiful, and smart... Then came the end when I lost it and WW then lost it. I haven't talked to her since this happened on Sunday. I think she went back to OM when she returned home to WA, as she wasn't home or picking up last night. I'm trying to figure out the best strategy for continued plan A. I'm going to take it a little easier and focus it around DD and light conversation with WW.

I learned a lot about where her head is during the visit on Sunday and it is amazing to see the Holy Spirit working to take us both in similar directions independently, despite WW's actions in open defiance of God. I am hesitant to continue exposure, but I think it may be better done now than later, as I want to do what I can to befriend her before coming home. I still believe that we can have a great marriage going forward and I think that reconciliation is the best solution for our family.

Keep us in your prayers, along with all the newly betrayed and betraying spouses in my circle...

All I am and will become in him,
sbmmal

sbmmal,

As you know my sitch, I havent had much time to get deep into yours. I am familiarizing now.

I do have a OT question: what type of unit do you command? I am a former infantry first sergeant. I was also an inspector general (I know COs loved us!!).

Anyway, just trying to get caught up on your SITREP.

Welcome back to MB, SB.

Good to hear from you, and glad your visit went well.

I am sorry to hear about those in your circle having chosen the vicious temptation of infidelity, but you are in a position to do more to help than the average family member or friend.

I also think your idea of continuing Plan A while gone is a good one. If contact with her gets too painful you can always pull back a bit for your sanity, but still maintain contact with your adorable, witty, charming daughter.

Prayers being sent for your new BS's and WS's.

MM (or as I'll affectionately call you - Top),

You are a welcome addition to my thread - thanks for everything you've contributed to MB - I have read and re-read husbands and wives about 5 times and it is right on. I am aware of your situation and I have prayed in faith for a favorable outcome. How is the new custody arrangement working out for you and your children?

Okay, so before I tell you what type of officer I am, let me say I spent 4 years on active duty in Korea and Fort Lewis (mostly as battalion and brigade staff) with Artillery, Infantry and Cavalry units, which was awesome. Now I'm in the NG, which is a nice way of saying the Army's temp agency. I am a Chemical Officer - I can hear you saying it now 'cause I heard it from all combat arms... NBC - NoBody Cares! And since NBC and we couldn't figure out how to find the WMD here, the Army saw fit to turn my Chemical Company into an in-lieu-of Military Police unit. See what I mean about temps!!!

The thread is long since it got jacked a couple of times along the way to rehash and rehash some more the issues of controlling behavior. Let me know if I've missed anything from your perspective.

Thanks.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

NSYN,

You seem to be having a bit of an identity crisis here on MB these days... Everything okay not_so_you_neak, SoylentNeak, and Neak? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I still like NSYN so I'm gonna continue to use that 'cause it reminds me of God's grace for a world full of sinners. Nevertheless, I do agree that you are unique, so I like the truncated version! Unfortunate that our situations are not_so_you_neak these days. MB has gotten a lot busier it seems to me.

I got some good advice from my friends on the decision to continue Plan A. Sunday was very difficult for me and really threw me for a loop emotionally. Now that I'm gaining perspective on it, I am drawing strength from that hellish pain I felt after the first trial "visitation" and using that to do whatever is required to prevent that preview from becoming reality.

WW is still not home, although her flight back to WA was yesterday - where could she be, I wonder? Duh - It's not over. I'm really considering calling MIL and asking her where my DD is and why I can't reach her... I talked to a friend of mine back in WA and he's still helping behind the scenes with prayer and accountability. Gave me some good advice and reassurance which was helpful.

It will be easy to maintain Plan A for the next few months and you are right about when it hurts too much pull back.

Thanks.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

Havent been called Top in over two years. I miss it!! I used to love getting a new CO and we would sit down over coffee. And the CO would explain his philosophy, which way he wanted to take the company. And after he did, I chime in with "Sounds good, sir. But I just wanted to make two things very clear. The first is I expect my NCOs to do NCO business and officers to do officer business. Let's all stick to our jobs.

The second thing is that this company is like NASCAR. You are the driver, I am the crew chief. You get to be out front, get all of the accolades. You get to turn this car (company) any way you want, make it go as fast or slow as you want. The Army gave you the keys. But at the end of the day...it is MY car (company)." Lol!

Anyway...hope you guys are staying safe and Charlie Miking!


I have appreciated that!!


Gonna update that tonight. For the most part...it is good. But had a crazy incident two nights ago. What a bizarre woman!


Dont I know. My last two assignments were with the 29th Light Infantry division as an IG and then as a first sergeant. That is a NG division. We got deployed to Bosnia for 9/11. Then sent to Afghanistan a year after we got back. And now my old company is headed to Iraq early next year. And these are Guardsmen! Three deployments in 5 years!

But as a sergeant major once told me: "The Active Duty has never won a war, and the Guard has never lost one." 65% of the Army's combat power is in the Guard! So, if this is a war (which it is), there aint no way to fight it without the Guard. The Guard major general that took us to Bosnia was asked by some reporters before we left:

"General, you guys only train one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer (yeah right!!). The 82nd Airborne trains everyday. How do you expect to be as good as the 82nd and accomplish this mission?"

He replied "Ma'am, you're right. I'm not as good as the 82nd Airborne. But guess what? I'm better than the Bosnians! As a matter of fact, my National Guard division is better than 80% of the world's active duty forces. And oh...by the way...I dont have to face the 82nd. Their on my side!"


I saw that. A lot of smoke (dont you chem guys put a lot of fog and smoke out there for us??? lol).

Anyway, checking out your sitch. And see if I can pick up rear security!

A bunch of us were briefly Soylent, lol, but it was all in my honor, *modest blush* and thanks to NCWalker.

As my sig line says, I still answer to all my names, including NSYN and Nutso.

I like your reminder of NSYN better than mine. To me, it looks like either "Enn Ess Wye Enn", or just "Ensign".

Yes, my experience was still notsoyouneak, but it defines me less each day. It made me who I am, but it is no longer the biggest part of who I am.

If that makes any sense.

NSYN,

It makes a lot of sense and sounds incredibly desireable right about now to me. Patience and commitment are the key and I too will get there one way or another.

sbmmal

You bet you will get there!

MEDC just told BKarl "baby steps" and that applies to you, too.

Really, it still applies to me just as much.

sbmmal



my H is in Afghanistan again now and this comment just tweaked my memory .. he said he loved smoke , but rain, sleet, clouds and snow would do in a pinch lol
he still hates the cold though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

good to see you on track and coping as well as can be expected right now.... and you will get to that place of Patience and commitment just as Neak says.

All,

Thanks for the continued support. Just a quick update on my situation. DD and WW are okay. They remained in Garden City, Kansas, as WW got the flu and couldn't travel. They are back in WA now, but I haven't talked to them yet since they returned.

I've been a reading fool the last few days since leaving Dallas - a 14 hour flight and massive jetlag in Kuwait will do that to you. I've read Too Busy Not to Pray by Bill Hybels, Father's Rights by Jeffrey Leving, and the first part of Love Busters by Willard Harley. The first book has transformed the way I think about and conduct my prayer life. It has helped me to open a dialogue with God in a way that I never imagined. The second book has prepared me for the worst case scenario. The third book has opened my eyes to the dynamics of my own relationship with my wife and the bad habits that I need to change, that she needs to change, and the ways in which we've migrated between conflict and withdrawal for a long time due to the external pressures on our marriage.

I started using the recommended journaling and prayer logging from the Hybels book and on the first night I had a little revelation that may really turn into a huge blessing. I'm going to meet with the Chaplain here and start a support group for soldiers affected by marital infidelity and divorce while deployed. Since I've returned, two more soldiers are dealing with this same situation and it's time to stop the bleeding and stand up for marriage. I've proposed calling the group Recon(ciliation) by Fire. Mortarman may be the only one to appreciate the true play on words.

Please pray for us over here. It's bad enough we've got to deal with the jihadists, but having to fight two front wars to save our families from selfishness and worldliness makes it almost impossible not to crack up.

All I am and will become in Him,

sbmmal,

I appreciate that play on words too. I may be near the bottom of the food chain, but I have the bark of the Big Dogs too!!

Glad to see you are back and that things went ok, for the most part. I hope things continue to improve for you, as I'm sure they will one way or another.

On a closing note...welcome back to the HEAT (135 today) ugh

I love it. It denotes that reconciliation will only happen through an offensive stature that takes the fight to the enemy. It does mean that you are exposed and you will take rounds.

This may catch fire in the Army, if you can get it going.

USS and MM,

Thanks for the encouragement. I think you are right that this has some legs if we can get it going.

As for the heat - wow! How can it get so hot here? It's like everyone in Baghdad left their oven on with the door open.

USS - Looks like your situation has taken a positive turn. Good for you.

All I am and will become in Him,
sbmmal

135??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Even our terrible heatwave would have seemed like the inside of a fridge compared to that.

I don't know how you guys can stand it, but I appreciate it all the same.

All,

Not much is new. Just had a little revelation the other night based on some assumptions strung together into a theory and some information from FIL during the most recent visit to KS. I think MIL and her new husband are in an affair marriage and that it has worked out relatively well for them. Based upon their own admissions they were both in "bad" marriages and then poof, they were married to eachother. This was well before I was ever around, but the template that WW is following was, I believe, created by MIL during her D. That's why she's funding it. She sees nothing wrong with what's going on. That would've been a good thing to know before we got married, dontcha think?!?

Alas, though, who asks their divorced parents how it all went down and gets a straight answer. I can assure you that I will with DD when she asks if that's how it goes for us.

All I am and will become in Him,