(Con't from To Tattoo or not)

NOW, one thing I want to make clear to y'all, and I am sure H would back me if he were here... I/We haven't been sitting idly by these past 10 years. Contrary to what some of you think *cough, cough Melody cough, cough* I have accomplished a lot with my counselor, and so has he.


I intend to buy this book for her so that SHE can help others even more than she has helped us.

H has already come back out here, he is aware (I hope!!) that I am serious about fixing things... there are other dynamics involved, such a long story and *yawn* I just got up... I know I did the right thing by coming out here yesterday, I guess I had NO IDEA that you all would INSTANTLY reply with such vehement feelings... It was a bit of a shock actually, LOL, but now that I slept on it, a good one. I see that we became lackadaisical and lazy. Procrastination is a HUGE... MASSIVE...ENORMOUS problem for us. In ALL areas of life. I feel now, and have often felt in the past, that if I am not the one reminding us of what is important, keeping us on track, then it won't get done. I will have my "blow-up" and H will see that I am serious, but then after a while as the storm blows over, all the LB's come right back. this is such a pattern that right now I am tired of riding the merry-go-round. I simply know how the ride will end and I am not having fun on it anymore. PLEASE... YES, I KNOW I HAVE A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITY in this marriage.. I KNOW that is it work, for ALL time, love is a choice, etc,etc... BUT I CANNOT DO IT ALONE!!! and :') I DO see that I LB, and that I need to be accountable for MY actions. I guess I also need to have somewhere to let the hurt and pain out... As Markos said, I need to stop bowing and scraping. That is a very blurry line for me, at THIS point...I need a correction on my prescription to see where my healthy limits should be. I am tired of hanging my head and walking on eggshells. I do not do this as much as I used to, but I SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT AT ALL....!!! He is my H, not my keeper, my teacher, my superior, my elder, my *insert appropriate adjective*... I shouldn't feel inferior to him and yet I do, all the time. When I try to bring it up I get "Well, I'm sorry you feel that way, that is not my intention", and like I said, a little change for a little while then... old habits come back. I VERY much feel, right now, that it is MY turn, that I am the one who gets to have what I want... I guess the new term (for me) is the TAKER in me is screaming out...

So suggest away, I am here and will read and learn. I now have to go shower and get ready for church. I'll see all of you later...

MrsWLD, the reason we think you are not in recovery is because a successful recovery involves changing the HABITS in your marriage. That has not happened here. Anyone can read from your first post that you and your husband engage in a plethora of lovebusters, ie: your IB, disrespectful judgements, and he with his angry outbursts. That is not a recovered marriage. In a recovered marriage, those bad habits have been eliminated. That is not the case in your marriage.

Keep in mind that I have been here the same length of time as you so I KNOW what recovery looks like.

It looks to me - and others - that you instead spent time with a "counselor" who believes it is worthwhile to waste time examining your "childhood" and who believes you should ramrod your husband into accepting a tattoo despite being told he HATES tattoos! You can argue she is a good counselor, but all one has to do to see that is not true is look at the RESULT. The proof is in the pudding!

I am not saying this to be harsh, but to help you see that a) your marriage is not recovered by MB standards, b) your "counselor" has not been successful and does not understand how to help you and c) that we CAN help you do it right this time.

We have couples who have been here 6 months who are farther along than you and your husband. We CAN and WILL help you get there!

But, you won't get us to agree that you have accomplished anything with this unqualified "counselor."

What has happened is that you are in the habit of sacrificing your happiness for his. This is a renters strategy and is bad for the marriage. As you can see, sacrifice leads to RESENTMENT and leads to a destructive attitude that says "By God, I have given and given, now it is my turn to take!!" It creates an entitlement atttitude that leads to destructive behavior like adultery and getting tattoos!!

Renters always keep score and when the score is not even, they resort to demands and independent behavior. That is what you are doing.

But you can't blame your husband for your part in this dance. You contributed to this mess by engaging in the practice of sacrifice. You are both responsible.

If yuo had been using Marriage Builders all along you would have eliminated lovebusters and you would not have engaged in sacrifice. As you know, Dr Harley is adamant that one not SACRIFICE.

Now, not getting a tattoo is NOT considered a sacrifice. And since you say you are familiar with MB I will let you explain why!

The first, off the top of my head reply, is that this is a huge LB for him that does NOT fill an EN

Please stop bringing up my counselor, I am WELL AWARE of your opinion,
Thank you.

*YOU* brought your counselor up. I was responding to your first post on this thread. I will be bringing up your bad counselor when I see fit.

MrsWLD, ask yourself if Dr Harley, a licensed clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Buiilders with a PROVEN track record, would approve of your counselors methods? Dr Harley is immensely more qualified, wouldn't you agree? So why wouldn't you look at the results you are getting and then compare how he would counsel you to what you have been getting?

I will just tell you right now that Dr Harley would disapprove of what your counselor is doing and point to the current state of your marriage. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

MelodyLane:
I have come on here for help. I am admitting that some of my behaviors are in need of correction for a happy healthy marriage. I know the mistakes that I have been and am making. I am politely asking you to BACK DOWN a bit. I understand that you are here to help me and others and I appreciate the help. I am asking that you be a little less "YOU did this, YOU didn't do that" and a little more suggestive of things that I can do. You have good advice, however the manner in which you are coming across keeps putting me on the defensive... So, again with a big PLEASE, try to find a way to not be so... in my face, harsh... not sure what the right word is. I can only tell you that your posts make me defensive and hope that you can find another way to come across as you have great things to say...
Thank you!

I see someone who is so busy defending herself that she isn't getting the point. This isn't about ML's approach which is perfectly fine. You control whether you get defensive or just... listen. And for the record, you're hearing the word YOU a lot because YOU came here. ML isn't invading your living room.

My suggestion is you take a thoughtful look over what has been said over your two threads. Your marriage isn't in the state you want it to be because what you're doing isn't working. That includes a whole host of things including your current counselor. I'm sure you like her and she does something that makes you feel good. But she hasn't helped you fix your marriage, just helped you communicate better with your H which is all they're trained to do aside from childhood naval gazing. If that's what you want, cool beans. But I think you came here for a MB perspective and that's exactly what you've gotten. I suggest you listen and digest rather than fire back. ML and everyone else has taken the time out of their day to help you. That's something no one has to do.

Travis

MrsWLD, I am not convinced you are aware of the problem, which is why you are getting so defensive. You have already decided what the problem is or isnt and are not open to objective views. You just dont like WHAT is being said.

My suggestion would be to try and keep an open mind. That is really the only way you are going to learn on this forum. Folks here really do want to help you, but you might have to hear some uncomfortable truths. You just have to be open to that. Let me know when you are open to that.

I LB, I make decisions without using POJA, I waste my time on the past in counseling, instead of looking to the future, I am disrespectful, I haven't changed any of the bad habits that put me in this position...

I am also hurt.... My taker is very much in charge here, I see that. I see that I have work to do... Where do I go if I need to vent? If I need to just get things off my chest? It would seem that I am not allowed to defend myself here, as that is putting my head in the sand. So I guess I do that a lot. BUT I AM HURTING!!!!!

Is there a different site on this forum that I should go to? I am ready to do the work, I GET IT... But I would rather feel a little more supported and less pointed at. Call me defensive, fine. But I get this at home. Am I not in recovery? YOU BET I'M NOT. I understand. I DON'T understand why I am not "allowed" to ask someone to be easy.Rome wasn't built in a day, I only just re-started this process yesterday....

I ALSO want to point out that THIS post has a much better "feel" to it.

Yes... I guess part of me is arguing here and being defensive here BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THAT I CAN'T DO THIS AT HOME AS THEY ARE UNHEALTHY BEHAVIORS. But the anger is so pent up, I have to let some steam off before I can move forward...

Again, do I belong in a different forum??

Believe me, you are on the RIGHT FORUM! You are getting the absolute best support you can get. You just don't realize it yet. Venting will not help you; having a serious plan of action WILL.

I encourage you to stop focusing on "tone" and start focusing on CONTENT. Quality support is completely contingent on the content, NOT the tone one uses to express that content. That will get you much farther, I assure you!

*CRIES*

I hate this...

ok, are you ready to get to work?

*stomps foot*

*folds arms across chest*




*sighs*

yes

You've had a counselor for all these years. And now you're here. Does that not say something about your counselor?

okay! Here we go! Buckle up!

You really, really need to start on lovebusters FIRST. That is because nothing is going to do any good until you get those under control. And I do mean BOTH WAYS!

So your first assignment is to get the book Lovebusters [2 copies if you can] and do a chapter each night. You read the chapter in your book and he reads the chapter in his book. You highlight things that important to you in PINK and he highlights important things in YELLOW. Then you swap books and look at the highlighted text.

Sit down together and answer the questions at the end of each chapter. Discuss the chapter. [without lovebusters, please!]

In the meantime, make a committment to NOT commit any lovebusters.

Download these 2 questionaires and fill them out. For now, exchange the Marital problem analysis when you done, but DON'T exchange the lovebusters questionaire yet. When you exchange the questionaires, simply thank your husband for his honesty. Don't get upset, angry, etc. But come here and tell us what was on each of your questionaires.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4506_mpa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4502_lbq.html

If there is anyway you can, it might be a good idea to also get the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love.[they sell it cheap here, about $11] because it has worksheets in it you can't get here.

I have been in AA for 27 years and at my FIRST meeting an old man told me: "you need to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth!" I was so mad!!

BUT... I was really serious so I came back the next week. ..

We just went to Barnes and Noble, they were out... Go figure! Heading to dinner, will order online when I get home...

I am stunned. Do you control the conversations in the rest of your life this way?? You are in danger of losing the best MB peer that you can have, and you do this??? Are you a controlling person? That you are actually attempting to direct a peer in how to respond to you??

You need to yank up your Big Girl Panties and LISTEN like a big girl. This isn't the old days of watching marriages fail right and left while everyone schmoozed everyone else and talked about recipes.

You have work to do. The first item on your To Do List is to SHUT UP, LISTEN, STOP TRYING TO CONTROL THE PROCESS AND LEARN. It helps no one but you. MelodyLane doesn't get paid to post to your thread.


For crying out loud.

Mrs WLD,

Ending lovebusters will get you immediate improvement. It is hard to love/like each other when you are tearing into each other. Mel has laid out an excellent way to start.

Did I miss something from an earlier post? Is your husband on board?

AM

AM,
I don't think you have missed something... Yes H is on board. I am just hurt that once again we are HERE... Tired of feeling like I'm the only one working on things...

ML...
Thanks... Working on it... I am listening...

Just downloaded the questionnaires and am ordering the books. H leaves for business trip Tuesday morning and will be gone through the week. When he returns, I will be gone for 2 days. I feel very angry right now and am afraid to talk about anything!!! I don't WANT to LB, but not sure I can control myself right now...

OH! I ALSO ordered the book for counselors to give to ours so that SHE is on the same page as well...

controlling yourself is something you CAN do, and you can make that number 1 on your list!

it sounds like you both have travelling jobs? that's hard on a M. when do you get your UA time?

We don't usually travel, he goes about 5-6 times a year. I am usually not going anywhere, this is a fluke that we are scheduled this way.

As far as when do we get or UA time...?? We currently don't make time for that. (See... I OWNED that...!!) We are in conflict, yes, but I have feelings of withdrawal as well. I had no idea, but since I first came out here just 2 short days ago, I have been doing MAJOR soul searching and have opened my eyes to just how bad things are...

*******PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND BEFORE YOU CRITICIZE ME********

I am currently undergoing a change in medication. I am very quick to anger and tears and have been for the last two weeks. Today I should hear from the doctor's office about an additional medication. Clinical chronic depression, ADD, OCD... all of it runs in my family, on both sides, for generations back. As far back as the abuse goes...

THIS IS NOT A CRUTCH FOR ME, I am simply putting it here because if any of you understand what these illnesses are like, then you will understand the "whys" of some of our actions. I believe that my H is also depressed (as it runs in his family as well), he has ADD and he has anger issues. To his credit, he has done a lot to control his anger over the past few years.

however... THAT ^^ is one thing that contributes to my feelings of fighting all by myself to make this marriage work. I feel like the thermometer... if my reading gets too high, then it is time to do something about it. :'( I need HIM to recognize it as well... I have said this too him before and like always, he works on things for awhile then once the skies clear up, I have the responsibility again.

So, this morning, I see myself as an enabler (TAKING the responsibility and sacrificing myself to avoid tension). I have done this is some fashion for years, I'm going to say 2 to be accurate. My "taker's" feeling are so strong!!! This weekend has been a blessing in disguise. I had simply forgotten all of this... I am so glad that I am back and that H is already aware of MB and the good it did for us once...

I have a long day of work and an MRI after, there won't be much time to talk to H tonite. However, my intention is to do the Marital Problem Analysis this evening, and ask him to do his. Please ML, confirm that this is just "information gathering" for both of us and that we are only supposed to accept each other's answers. He knows that I ordered our books so tonight I THINK I want to tell him just how bad I see things... or do I just do the questionnaire...??? I can see that if I follow up the questionnaire with conversation about it, that could lead to LB and/or AO on both our parts... So do I NOT talk about it?!?

I have access to this forum on my phone and will check back periodically...

Thanks!! Especially to ML for not turning your back on my tantrum.

Mrs WLD,

UA time is hugely important - maybe most important if you can avoid lovebusting during the UA time. Take a few minutes once a week (Dr. Harley always says at Sunday at 3PM) and schedule your week. There should be a minimum of 15 hours of UA time (more if things aren't going well in the marriage) and 15 hours of family commitment time with your children (do you still have kids at home?) I am guessing your son is an older teen. Getting teens to participate in family time is difficult, especially if they have not been doing it all along.

The UA time should be spent meeting each other's more intimate emotional needs, typically affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. Schedule all of it. The workbook, "Five Steps to Romantic Love" has a worksheet that can be used to schedule the UA time as well as a graph for tracking. There are many, many posters here who note that whenever their UA time drops, they feel less connected and unhappy in the marriage.

Do these two things (eliminate the lovebusters and spend at least 15 hours a week UA) and much of your depresson and anger may be relieved. Being happy in your marriage will make you both happier people.

AM

The critical importance of Undivided Attention

Yes, this is just information gathering right now. Ask him to be radically honest on his paper and you must also agree to be radically honest. [but not by making disrespectful judgments!]

Then come back here and tell us what you each had to say.

Will your husband go through the Lovebusters assignment with you?

Did you know the #1 cause of depression in women is a bad marriage? Women who are happy in a romantic marriage are not depressed.

This is the SECRET to Marriage Builders. It is the magic bullet that changes marriages. The worksheet for UA time is in the workbook and it should be scheduled out as ArmyMama described.

Ok, quick update before I go home (waiting on my MRI). I called H as I left work to say hi, check in... Old habit from "back in the day" of 10 years ago that I DIDN'T lose... Reminded him of my appointment now. I told him that I spent all of my free time this past weekend on HERE and that I now realize that WE have a Lot of work to do. I told him that I would like us to jump back on board here and I told him where I left the.... Marriage questionairre thingy... The first one ML said to do. I asked him to fill one out, to be brutally honest and not worry about hurting my feelings; I promised that I wouldn't get hurt or mad, that I recognize these questions to be information gathering only!! He said ok; I then asked the same of him. I told him that I ordered us two books, one for each of us, and told him about the highlighters and the work we have laid out for us. I told him that ML has started our process and that I really want to commit.... He didn't say anything...

Crap they called me....

We have two beautiful daughters, 16 and 18. SO much of our time these past four years have revolved around them. We are very involved in school functions, I'm sure a little too much, as in, we sacrifice our UA time for it. Our girls very much like to be around us, we are blessed to be "that family" where all their friends like to hang with us.. LOL Our girls tell us they are lucky to have parents like us and when they see lack of discipline in other kids/families, they THANK us for raising them the way we have done. We are blessed with both of them...

Yes, as parents we ROCK!!!!!!

I read this today during my lunch. At first I was thinking.. OMG... WHAT will we talk about/do?!? I was almost dreading it. Then by the time I was finished with the phone call before my MRI, I could see a possibility that it won't "be so bad"... LOL

I found myself deciding to hold my tongue today with a snappy comeback to his hurtful tone... yay!

I don't feel anymore like I need to avoid conversation lest I blow up... He certainly seems agreeable to all of this. Tomorrow he goes away and I won't see him until Sunday. I will be here, reading and learning...

Mrs WLD,

You sound as if you have great kids. Sorry, I inferred that one of the girls was a boy. Poor reading comprehension. Certainly, you and H have excelled at family commitment. Also, they are old enough that you don't have babysitter issues. You and H can go out on dates anytime you plan one.

OK, I think this might sting a bit. Telling your husband you want him to post on the board, read the books, highlight in them, fill out the questionnaire etc is a selfish demand. People don't like it when they are bossed around by their spouse, or anybody for that matter. Thoughtful requests work much better.

Also, once again, you acted independently, without negotiating with your husband about his wishes. Working MB is a good goal, but ordering all the books first is independent behavior nonetheless. Practice POJA. POJA everything. I think Mel already posted about lettuce negotiation and early on, my H and I negotiated who to vote for on "America's Got Talent". Now, we negotiate everything.


Regarding conversation: My H had an affair. At the beginning of working the MB workbooks, our conversation was limited to the weather and the dog. But, after a short period of time, we began to laugh again and actually enjoy each other's company. I think it was easier to wrap the conversation around the recreational companionship. In the beginning, we would walk the dog (RC), hold hands (affection), talk (IC), and kiss in the woods (ok, not actual SF).

AM

AM,
Nope didn't sting... Just felt stupid for not seek g the obvious!! This morning I printed out the POJA and all associated links... Stapled it all together, included the love busters questionairre, and approached him. I asked him if he agrees with the fundamentals of MB. He said yes. I asked if he thought we could repair our relationship by utilizing the program, he said yes (in a non- direct way that hurt and I ignored it), I then told him what I had printed out and ASKED him if I could give it to him to read on his flight today. He said yes. I pointed out that the ideas I had printed were based on advice I got here on how/where to begin. I concluded with asking him if he thinks he could have the packet read and the questionairre filled out by the time he for home and he said yes, with a Smile.

Okay I am pissed off!!!!!! I just had to leave for work, I asked H what he would be doing doing his down time in Chicago. He replied with probably going out to dinner and happy hour with his coworkers. I politely asked him to not spend as much time with his coworkers as he does spending time working on marriage builders concepts i.e. the questionnaire and reading the materials that he agreed it was alright for me to give to him. He replied with I will not do that, the social aspect of this convention is very important to how I do my work. So he said "I can't do that" I asked him you can't do that, or you won't do that? He said I won't do that. I will not promise you that that will happen. He then asked me if I understood why he needed to socialize, I replied with no I don't really understand. He answered, "well I'm sorry you feel that way." this is a HUGE trigger for me... To be apologized to in that fashion... We have talked several times about that fashion of apologizing, I have explained to him that that is not a sincere apology to me that that is very patronizing to me. How can he be sorry for my feelings???? Especially when he's the one that hurt them?? He doesn't apologize for hurting my feelings, just for the fact that I don't f&;@...
I am driving to work right now using Siri on my iPhone and I am shaking.....

That kind of back and forth is really damaging to marriages, so it's best to pull out of it as soon as you realize it is starting to happen.

I have heard Dr. Harley say that if a man will start spending enough time with his wife (i.e., following the Policy of Undivided Attention), she will usually become more enthusiastic about time spent on work/networking, etc. In fact, he used the words "practically guarantee it."

Please have a look here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2325269#Post2325269

Okay, I see you've already been given the link that I just posted, and already read it.

According to Dr. Harley, this is most likely the solution for your depression. It might be difficult at first, your husband might not be good at it at first, but it is almost certainly the solution. You probably can't get over depression without this.

It's also likely to cast your husband's work activities in a different light, according to Dr. Harley. Try putting this POUA policy into practice together, and then see how you feel. (And, of course, rule out any activities on his part that you aren't enthusiastic about. POJA!)

Here are some helpful past radio broadcasts from Dr. Harley on the subject of depression:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=106
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=107

I will mention that Dr. Harley suggests that husbands and wives never spend the night apart. Not only is it a high risk for an affair, it disrupts the bond between husbands and wife. They typically have to spend all of their other time together reconnecting.

Dr. Harley and Joyce spent a few nights apart early in their marriage, but I've heard them say they can count those incidents on one hand, they are so few. They quit doing that.

Nights apart were very damaging to my relationship with my wife, early in our marriage.

So... Instead of asking if he can't or won't do something I dhould have just been quiet at that point...? Honestly trying to figure out MY part on this...

Mrs WLD,

Yes. You started to demand other things that you both have agreed at the first place. Instead you should have asked him about his flight, his day and that you miss him and then maybe ask if he had time to read the materials yet and what does he think about it. And if he hadn't read them yet, then just state okay and change the subject.

You asked him to read the materials during his flight and asked him to get the reading done by the time he gets home. He agreed. Now you wanted something else and this passage of "can't or won't" and the rest that was said afterwards was disrespectful and demanding. It is a natural thing to get defensive when someone is attacking us, your demanding is lovebusting, his answers were defensive and thus also lovebusting. Lovebusting creates more lovebusting so it would be wise to avoid them at all cost. Oftentimes our imagination of "polite asking" is just ... demanding and disrespectful. Please start reading Lovebusters very carefully and make notes. You will not be able to fill his lovebank when you lovebust him. Read from the book what you can do instead of it.

You need to READ AHEAD in the Lovebusters book!! This is a selfish demand coupled with a disrespectful judgement! Behave! And stop fighting with your husband.

We are still awaiting the arrival of the books....

Will there be a time that I can have my hurt feelings taken care of...?? Because right now that is all I feel. I know anger is almost always my secondary emotion... I get hurt a LOT... So how do I keep that from happening, even if I don't LB..?? I know my taker is my in my face right now, and I am honestly trying, I DIDN'T get mad (in front of him) the way I usually do when he "apologized", I simply reminded him nicely that it hurts when he says it that way.....

Mrs WLD,

Did you happen to pay for express delivery for the books???? It would be good to get reading. This week, while your husband is away, keep your communications pleasent and respectful.

A good phrase to use with any thoughtful request (as opposed to selfish demand) is "How would you feel about XXXXX?" and then LISTEN to the response. Then restate it, "So, you would like XXXXX". That enables both of you to have a clear understanding of what the other is thinking. This is a negotiation technique that lets you both get your interests and plans out on the table.

Your conversation was an example of a selfish demand that evolved into a disrespectful judgement and into an angry outburst. This is a typical evolution of an argument.

AM

MrsW, your feelings got hurt because your H did not capitulate to your demands. If you didn't make the demand, there would be nothing to be upset about! Focus on being pleasant with your husband so he will want to do the lessons with you.

This advise is GOLDEN.

Yes, that's the plan.

But the plan doesn't work unless you follow it.

And if you can't stay calm enough to follow the plan, then it won't work.

My books should be in today!!!

Does working in the love busters book together count as undivided attention?

Yes, Ma'am!

Yay!!!

Worked on the books last night.. realized we are both scared to be telling the other what "we do wrong" but also nice for H to say that we need to keep in mind that this is for a good outcome and to not get mad. I am so nervous though....

My H and I were nervous about this also, esp since we'd been such conflict avoiders for 20 years! It's important to be honest. Just keep in mind, you can get it out there and still be respectful of each other. The way you communicate these things can really make a difference.

I am happy that you recognized this and discussed it in advance. You will have to get into the habit of accepting complaints with GRACE. They are very important to your marriage because they inform you of opportunities for improvement.

It is also important that you present your complaints in a respectful way that does not translate as criticism.

One way to look at it is to compare it to getting a NSF notice from your bank. Sure it is not pleasant, but the alternative would be a disaster! Getting the notice gives you the opportunity to fix the problem so you can become a better money manager. That is how complaints work in marriage.

You are doing great!!

Would like to see what each of you cite as problems on your Marital Problem Analysis sheets.

I will post those ASAP... I wanted to get off last night so we could work on our books... Empty house for the evening, it was a rarity!!

Great news. You and your H sound excited to get back on track.

Dr Harley and Joyce talk frequently about how many conflicts they have each day. The conflicts come up all the time. However, the Harley's are adept at conflict resolution and negotiation. They resolve their conflicts in minutes.

Hope you are doing some reading in "Lovebusters".

AM

These are our answers: H's first

2's
Affection
SF
IC
AO

3's
Recreational Companionship
Physical Attractiveness
Domestic Support
Admiration
Disrespectful Judgements
Annoying Habits

4's
Honesty and Openness
Financial Support
Family Commitment
Selfish Demands
Dishonesty
IB

His goal is to create a lifestyle that is fulfilling for both of us and he thinks that if he achieved that goal the other two would be easy.

My answers:

2's
SF
Honesty and OPenness
Family Commitment
Disrespectful Judgements
Independent Behavior

3's
Affection
Intimate Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Physical Attractiveness
Domestic Support
Selfish Demands
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits

4's
Financial Support
Admiration
Dishonesty

My goal is to avoid being each other's source of unhappiness and if we could do that the other two would be easy.

I'm not sure that H has seen my answers, although I am not hiding them. Do we talk about them...?? We haven't done the LB questionnaires yet, it said we need to read through chapter 8...

There is alot of good stuff here! The top 3 needs can be resolved by scheduling UA time and focusing on meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation and recreational companionship. MEeting those 4 needs will make the greatest love bank deposits.

Since you both cite AO's and DJ's as your most serious lovebusters, I would focus on those chapters this week. You don't want your UA time to be ruined by lovebusters.



Its interesting that you only have ONE intimate emotional need in your top 5. That might be because you are emotionally detached from him. When that happens, one tends to place a higher value on the non intimate ENs like FC and Openness and honesty.

What is the issue with Physical appearance? You both list this as "sometimes disappointing."

My suggestion would be to schedule out at least 20 hours of undivided attention time for next Sunday through Saturday. Get in as much as you can for this week, but next week can be your first full week. The bulk of that UA time should be scheduled out of the home, for example, 4 - 4 hour dates. Can you do that?

Dress nicely and let your spouse help choose your outfit - and vice versa. Write out the dates, times and planned activities. Plan on meeting all 4 intimate EN's during these evenings.

I would also jump to the lesson on Angry Outbursts in Chapter 5. You absolutely HAVE TO eliminate them because every time one of you has an AO, it causes massive withdrawals. It will undo anything good you have achieved. That is where I would really focus.

If either of you can't get your AO's under control, you really need to consider taking an anger managment class.

Mrs WLD,

Good stuff. Mel is absolutely correct. UA time is not fun if you are having AOs during the time you are spending together. Eliminate AOs first, DJs and SDs. The SDs and DJs escalate into the AOs.

AM

Some key points about UA time:

1. make sure you both enthusiastically agree about the activities - no capitulation or compromise! You must both like the plan

2. agree to keep your conversation PLEASANT and SAFE. Avoid talking about your relationship problems. Be pleasant and smile

3. change your clothes and look and smell your best!

4. absolutely no lovebusters!

AM is right. An angry outburst can RUIN the entire evening! And this means AO's at other drivers, other people, etc. The last time my H had an AO at other drivers, I just told him to take me home because I didn't want to be around him when he did that. It upset me alot! That was in 2007 and I can count his AO's since then on 2 fingers.

Even BEING angry and holding it in and wreck an evening, so neither one of you should go there.

Capitulation can also ruin an evening. I got my H to agree to go to this fancy Italian restaurant once [I worked him over! ] and I paid dearly!! He fussed at traffic the whole way there and then found fault in everything about the restaurant. So it must be an enthusiastic agreement rather than a reluctant agreement.

Interesting thought that AO's aren't only directed towards H...

Exactly.

We have friends, the couple who preach that "it is not healthy to hold your anger back" .

To them this "principle" means that just burst it out. Most commonly it means that the one who happens to be the closest at the moment, usually their spouse, is the one who gets the worst part of it.

Angry people tend to consider everyone as idiots, morons, etc. Anybody who is driving in front of them or working with them or tending them, is an imbecile... It took me a while to understand that, for example, a road rage - even if it is not directed to me or my spouse personally - is the same AO as any other.

Please help...

How do I nicely say that something H does hurts my feelings? If the kids do/tell him something, something that should be shared... fr example my younger D came home sick today from school and my older D went to a friends house after school. H knew about these things and I have asked him previously to keep me posted on these kinds of things. This is the kind of thing that, for ME, is a huge LB, I listed it on my marital questionnaire in the family commitment section. This hurts a lot when he does this... I have asked him nicely to do this in the past, even given him examples of things i would like to be informed about... I certainly don't expect to be told EVERYTHING that the girls talk to him about... But certainly these two things were important. He apologized, said he "meant to" tell me... but I get that a lot... I am sad and don't know what to do. We are making progress in our books, I am avoiding LB and IB, PJOA'ing all the time, as is he... but this hurts. How do I talk about it??

You did talk about it. You did the right thing in telling him this upset you. Now, just drop it.

Mel,
This time I didn't say anything to him because I was afraid that I would LB or DR... do you mean because I have said something in the past...?

Just remind him to please tell you in the future.

alright, thank you.

Had a really good talk the other night, PJOA'ing about the tattoo. Nothing settled, we agreed we should stop talking about it. Afterwards I told him how nice it was to just be able to talk without being afraid of him getting mad. I stayed calm and pleasant ( I asked him if I did to be sure!! ) and then we went on to work on our books. We both kept thinking of our conversation and both came to the conclusion that we are trying to tackle something too big for us at the moment. The tattoo is equally emotional for us, on different ends of the spectrum. He recognized that it is a problem for me! YAY!!! I had a grreat day yesterday because we actually TALKED the night before and I was sure to tell him that!!!

You did so good!! That is great that you were able to put it aside without lovebusters. You did the right thing in putting it off until later. Later, you will be more skilled at negotiating.

Might be time to start scheduling some undivided attention time. Did you get the workbook?

Dang it!! I KNEW I was forgetting something....

Just placed my order for the workbook...

Did I hear a certain somebody's email on the radio show last Friday?? Here is the link, go to 12:32 here