There's a lot of great resources on here and I appreciate what you guys do.

I just wanted to explain my situation and see what your recommendations were.

My wife and I have been married 6 years. We are both Christians and I'd never thought either of us really believed or approved of divorce, at all. There have been some unresolved conflicts leading up to this. For me, we've never had good sexual relations because she experiences pain and is unwilling and unaroused. In turn, resentment about this issue over time caused my emotional commitments to her to gradually deteriorate. I know I've been harsher and less willing to listen the last several months. Also she started a business that failed this year and there have been some conflicts regarding money and careers. Our anniversary (2/28) was just before the business failure and it was great. She initiated sex and she enjoyed it, and both of us put up statements on our social media accounts about loving and committing to the other person.

She's started becoming unwilling to talk during discussions about conflict. She just clams up and I have to wait for her, usually 10 or 20 minutes, to talk. During some of our harder discussions this year, I would begin to suggest possible answers or ask what was on her mind/what she was thinking about. I know now this really made her angry, as in my follow-up questions she feels like I'd twist her words or get her to agree to things she doesn't agree with.

In July I called to talk to her while I was out of town, and she fumbled around but eventually said that she wasn't sure that she loved me. I was heartbroken with her and tried to talk to her about what this meant, but she couldn't explain and so I asked her about times recently where we'd actually been intimate and she seemed to concede that she hadn't thought of it that way. This should have been an enormous red flag for me, but she was also having serious health issues at the time (hypertension) and in consoling her I concluded that they were to blame as she assured me that there wasn't any issue with "us" after I got back. Also she started asking not to go to any of my family events at this time because of her hypertension being exacerbated by travel, so I would concede and go alone.

Maybe a month later, she had a fight with me about money and left to go to her parents house for 2 hours. She explained the issue, they took my side on the issue, and told her to come back and apologize to me. I've verified this with them. I was terrified because she left suddenly and wouldn't answer her phone, so I started leaving notes and trying to be as caring as possible for her. I continually tried to talk to her about our issues, as I felt the distance, but she repeatedly assured me that she was fine and that she loved me.

6 weeks ago, I got home from work and she told me she had no feelings for me and wanted to separate. She'd got 2 jobs to support herself, and said she'd felt this way for several months and was just waiting for the financial means to leave. I was stunned. We deliberated about the issue for a couple hours and I begged her for marriage counseling. Our marriage has been hard on me too where I have disappointments, but I strongly do not believe in divorce and had no idea she was hurting so much. She would not agree to counseling until I threw out a number: 6 weeks. She would do 6 weeks of counseling, and promised me she would do it with an open mind.

Counseling went relatively well, and the counselor focused on our communication issues, working on her being more open, and me being less opinionated/harsh with her. He gave me some books that have really challenged and helped me, but she had no materials assigned. At home, she was cold. She made it a particular point to say she did not love me, wouldn't undress around me, and volunteered to go in early or stay late at work to avoid being home. Her disposition improved over the 5 weeks she stayed (friendly, polite), but she was adamant about those 3 issues.

Earlier this week, I found this forum doing some web searches. I had become discouraged because my wife would tell her parents or our pastor that things were improving and she was going to stay and fix things, but then tell me privately that she felt the same as before or didn't know. Counseling started to make her upset as we dug up some of her hurts and inability to tell me about them, and she blamed me for making her look like the bad guy. I just thought it wasn't working and we were running out of time.

On here I read about the likelihood of an affair, and it all started coming together for me. I noticed she was on the phone constantly when I wasn't around, and hung up as soon as I was. One time I casually engaged her about who she was talking to and caught her in a lie (told me it was different people at different points in the convo). One night I picked up her phone and tried to check it....passworded. I wanted to hack it but instead just asked her honestly for the password. She got angry and accused me of being controlling and manipulative, so I caved and gave it back.

Next day, she went into counseling and told our MC that she's done and the counseling makes her feel controlled, and that she wants permanent separation. Before I even got home she took some clothes and left, leaving a note saying she was with a female friend (who I've never met or seen) for an indefinite amount of time.

I called her parents and followed up with our pastor, checking to see if my suspicions that she'd been lying to them were true. She had. Even the day before she left (after the phone fight) she had told her parents she was going to work things out. Everyone in her family is hurt and confused by this, we're all very tight knit and get along. All of her siblings have contacted me to express support and her parents also.

So far I've put a tracker in her car (snuck it up to her work) and noted where she's going, as well as undeleting files on her computer. I'd noticed she'd cleared things out the day she left. On her computer were about 10 or 20 selfies of her in nice clothes or dress, and a few of another guy. Nothing really racy, just nicely dressed and combed hair. Half of the photos were too corrupted to recover. No luck on getting anything that would reveal her call/text records, not sure how to go forward there.

She's been out to eat almost every time she's ate since she's left, and that is unusual. I borrowed a friend's car and tried to catch some photographs of her leaving one of the places, but she was with a group. Also, nobody on the street where her car is goes by the name she provided (I cross referenced using Spokeo), and there are at least 2 males our age that have shared interests with her on the street.

I'm just at a loss as to how to go forward. My image of her (and the image most of her family has) has been shattered by her dishonesty in this situation. Nobody knows how to react. I am nearly certain that she is cheating because of all of the clues, but everyone is advising me caution and telling me my zeal about it is harmful (in the event that I'm wrong).

She hasn't acted like she'd do anything wrong with our bank account, but she has consistently manipulated me (e.g. asking me to fix her car) and is paying some her bills out of my bank account without depositing paychecks in it. After everything that has happened, I feel like I'm foolish if I do not either follow up and verify/expose the affair as well as doing Plan B type measures to keep her from siphoning off my money and support.

My genuine interest is to save the marriage because despite our issues, she's (until now) always been a beautiful and wonderful person, and my faith instructs me to. I just don't know what the best course of action is. Without phone records (I can't afford a PI), I don't know how to verify infidelity and the people in her family who know I am trying to dig think I am playing with fire (they're not yet convinced).

I have truly no idea what her motivations or thoughts are because she says she "can't" talk to me. Her family says she used to be like this when she was younger about conflict. What do you guys think.

Sir,
I think you should hire a PI and get evidence of her affair.

Also, every single person in my family accused her of cheating when this all started (she announced her wanting to separate) and said they'd seen this coming for years. It's made it very difficult to talk to them objectively because they are very distrusting. I feel foolish in that regard, like they all saw something I couldn't.

axslinger, you need to hire a PI. Find the money somehow. I am confused about why you can't catch her if you have a GPS on her, but if you can't it is time to hire a professional. They can usually get everything you need in a couple of days. Even if you have to take out another credit card, you should do this. If you have the facts, we can help you save your marriage if that is possible.

GPS has only been on since Thursday of this week. She left my house Wednesday night after counseling. I know where the house is that she's staying at, but when she left she left a note saying she wanted space to "think" about things and that she was staying with a female friend.

I have an address and some possible names (Spokeo), but no smoking gun that this is an affair and not what she says it is. I feel like I need a photo of PDA or at least a confirmation that it's a male-only residence to be certain. Or maybe some texts/call records. What's normally the burden of proof? What's the best way to take advantage of the GPS?

Also, going to look into methods tonight for financing a PI.

Sir,

Being a "a male only residence" isn't always the best proof.
There are some posters whose wives left them for a same-sex affair!

I'm confused, did she provide a name of who she was going out to eat with? And what does 'shared interests' mean?

First, you should discontinue the counseling. It is only going to hurt and not help your situation, especially if she is in an affair. And then you should read up on Plan A. While you are gathering evidence of the affair, you will want to be in Plan A.

Bringing up past hurts is what most marriage counselors do. All that does is bring you back to the emotional pain of the past, it does not do anything to create a better present and future for your marriage.

Most marriage counselors have NO idea how to deal with affairs and from what you have written, it looks like your counselor is no exception to this.

This counselor is not helping you at all.

Also, your family are not experts on affairs either. You SHOULD be a bulldog about finding out the facts, this is your wife and marriage you are fighting for! How can you fight for it if you don't have the facts. How is it 'playing with fire' to find out the facts about your own marriage, so that you can fight to save it?

Playing with fire is watching your marriage burn around you while you do nothing.

So good job working to find the funds to finance a PI, that is the quickest way to get the evidence that you need. When you get it, do not immediately confront her, come back here and the veteran forum members can advise you on the next step.

"I'm confused, did she provide a name of who she was going out to eat with? And what does 'shared interests' mean?"

There's been no contact since she left. She left a note Thursday saying she was staying with a female friend from work that none of us have seen or heard of. I know she's where eating because I'm able to track her car's location and see her going to restaurants nearly every meal. This is highly unusual for her because she is a penny pincher around me about eating out.

Shared interests means I crossed referenced the current/past residents of the street she's staying at using Spokeo with their Facebook profiles, and many of them are into the same things she's into. Just looking for possible candidates to match the photos I've found of a male on her computer. No luck yet.

Thanks for the support. Sometimes I don't think the family understands what I'm trying to do here. My family worries about me getting into trouble over something that can't be salvaged, her family is still not convinced she is capable of an affair, they think she's just upset with me. I haven't been making accusations with her family, just asking questions they think are unfair. What a circus.

I'm not talking to either side about it again until I get a PI report and can speak with facts.

That is the PERFECT approach.

I have one sibling who has been on the level with me about this (and not judgmental towards my spouse...sib is a mental health worker so they understand the dynamics) and is very $$$ successful...they have agreed to help me with the $$$ for PI so tomorrow I find one and we go from there. Any tips on who to pick? I'll check the forum for tips as well.

Lots of communications to me from both sides of the family today via text or call. Wife has destroyed so much by lying to everyone, it's daunting and intimidating to think of what will have to be rebuilt. My family is ready to consider things over because they see this as a moral failure (can't see how I've contributed to it), her family is heartbroken because she has repeatedly lied to them about her intentions to reconcile and now won't return calls or texts. They are texting me telling me this, as well as being supportive (e.g. "don't give up on her"). Their support has been invaluable but I hurt for them. I am stunned that she has done this to them.

I'm also a bit shaken about the future because she has lied to them about me in an attempt to justify the separation. I'm hoping exposure will bring moral clarity to them but it is their child. She's framed me as controlling and sexually demanding/imposing, trying to paint the marriage as a sham or unfortunate. I only know because her parents relayed this to me with some skepticism about it, but I just worry words can't be unsaid.

This week will be interesting, hoping for swift response from the PI. Wife's weekend from her work week is Wednesday/Thursday and her Monday/Tuesday job is only a block from our house. Curious to see if she drops by and tries to move more of her stuff out, she left with only a backpack of clothes. She will avoid me at all costs, she's terrified of confrontation with anyone at this point.

Got my PI and am meeting him later with my evidence and facts up to this point.

A note of encouragement for any who read this in a similar situation...there are some dopey PIs out there. I had one guy try to advise me on what to do/not do about the marriage after telling me he needed my attorney's advice on what evidence to gather/how to get it because he wasn't sure of legal boundaries in evidence gathering. He told me I'd gotten "bad advice" in confronting her with evidence and that I should just wait for the affair to die or divorce her.

I just kept calling until I got someone who sounded confident and capable.

Ax you are doing good here. Good job on lining up a credible PI, and I am happy to hear about the support you are getting from your families.

If you haven't already, go read up on exposure. I will try to copy the link for you. When you get the evidence, you should not immediately confront her with it, but rather come here for advice on exposure. Doing a full, immediate, and credible exposure will not only kill the affair, but will also help garner you support despite the buildup of bad mouthing your wife has already done prior to leaving. But you have to be bold, do it all at the same time and not trickle expose, and not tip her off about it in advance.

Can you do that, come here with the evidence? I know getting evidence is the tip of the ice berg emotionally, so having a plan now will keep you from just 'reacting' to the emotions, rather than following a precise plan to kill the affair.

The Exposure 101 link is at the end of MelodyLane's post a couple posts up.

He should stick to his day job since he knows nothing about saving marriages. Good for you for being selective!

Do you guys have any advice on getting call records? She's using a prepaid account where the provider doesn't provide them in billing. I feel like there would be irrefutable evidence on the phone, and probably sexting. I didn't find anything too racy on the photos I recovered from her PC, but half the photos were too corrupted to view and at least some were sexual (tight shirts, photos of her rear profile). And those were just the photos on the PC she had bothered copying off her phone, and then deleting.

PI I found wants $1k to do two 5 hours sessions of following her around after work later this week/early next. No VARS because he says they are illegal.

Sound legit?

Found her friend she's allegedly staying with using Google/Facebook...this person lives in a completely different part of town than where wife has parked her car each night. Miles away.

Found a male friend she used to talk to me frequently about (and who she's very active on the Facebook profile of) using Google/Facebook....took me forever to get his last name, all I had was the first and his occupation (small biz owner)....but I got it. He lives about a block or two from where the car is. They have taken college classes together in the past.

I'm wondering if I need the PI at this point. If I had a good camera and a different car to borrow, I'd bet I could get some pictures/video myself. Highly suspect of this guy, always have been. Have never met him but she told me too much about him for me to be comfortable.

Thoughts? PI I settled on couldn't get started until the end of the week. Might even try to call more to find someone who can start tomorrow, I think this case is about cracked.

Another thought while I ponder exposure...they are both in the same program at college...I think he graduated recently, she's still got a little time left. I've met several of her instructors and gotten to know a few and they are very straight laced people who would not approve of this. My wife has tremendous respect for these people and I think they might have large influence over her in this, particularly since the OM is another student/former student. Might also have great influence over the OM since they know me, I have paid for her education and we have been married several years now. They're all on both wife and OM's Facebook friends.

Out of line to contact these people?

No, it is not out of line.
If the affair is in a place, such as college or workplace then exposure should be done there.

He's probably the OM.
Get his info and some proof and then post the OM and the proof on www.cheaterville.com

Another Q:

The vehicle she is driving is in my name and I paid for it. It's always been considered a gift to her, and I've put a tremendous amount of work into it (it's a classic).

I have been tempted after exposure to retrieve it and change out the ignition tumbler so her keys no longer work. Not to spite her, but because it would make her dependent on the OM (who is currently unemployed...his biz went under as well) for transportation and remind her of her economic dependency on me as well. Too much? Bad idea? Save for Plan B?

This is exactly the reason for exposure. To put pressure on the affair and garner support for you. This would indeed do both of those things so it is absolutely not out of line.

But make sure you have your ducks in a row first, so you can do the exposure all at once and without warning.

Wife just texted me saying she wants to chat this weekend and "pick out a time we can talk". I'm guessing this means that we are actually going to talk at a time beyond this weekend, but I'm not sure.

All of the uncertainty is like a roller coaster ride. I feel like the whole concept of a discussion at this point is ridiculous...it's more like she will tell me what she feels like doing and ask me to deal with it. Unless I'm completely wrong about things at this point, this will be completely unilateral on her part with me just left to pick up the pieces...everything up to this point has been this way. Sorry, but I feel like X and so we must Y.

It feels like an eternity since I've seen her or talked to her. I actually dread seeing her. I miss her but the trust is so broken that I feel like she's a different person now, someone I profoundly do not understand.

But more than anything I'm puzzled by what she will have to say, and whether she'll tell me to my face or over the phone. Will she ask for me to co-operate with legal separation/divorce? Is this talk about revealing the affair? Is this something unexpected, like asking to try to fix things?

I suspect the first option, but I think her guilt might lead her to the second, in which case I don't know what I will do. Do you expose an affair someone has admitted to you? If she reveals it to me I will guess that it's in the "I'm in love with him so you and I are done now" sort of way.

Third option seems like a fairly tale by now.

PI can't get started till Friday. Going to gather funds, pay him ASAP, and stop thinking about this until I have a report or talk to her, whichever comes first. Her family still doesn't know where she actually is and I wish I could tell them but I'm waiting for all of the facts.

Sir,

Please do yourself a favor and ignore your wife's fog babble and focus on exposure; expose to the OM family and friends. Post him on Cheaterville

axslinger, you are doing great. Just keep moving forward, get the evidence and we will help you with next steps. In the meantime, I would start creating a list of exposure targets. Go to the OM's Facebook page TONIGHT and make a copy of all his contacts. Start prioritizing them into a list with family first, college professors, married friends.

Read through my exposure thread and start making your plans.

Going to have to take actions at the bank today. Wife has added nothing to our joint account from her new jobs and is paying most of her bills out of the account using my income only. Today she withdrew 75% of our rent payment from my account. Apparently she has some logic on how it's going to be split, but that logic includes me covering 3/4 of it along with all of her bills (except for food and gas from what I can tell), and all of the marriage counseling (which she agreed to split). As usual (since the separation announcement), I have no seat at her table. Unilateral.

Where we live if you get served divorce papers you have 30 days to respond or the filing spouse is awarded their demands. I have a feeling I am going to get served by the wife ASAP so she can try to kill the marriage without the affair being discovered. I am going today to talk to an attorney about how to stall her, at least long enough for exposure and fallout.

axslinger, hopefully you have removed the rest of your money from this account and rerouted your deposits so she can't plunder the bank account.

fyi, the attorney will likely tell you NOT to expose. The reason is because his goal will be to facilitate an easy amicable divorce. Our goal is to help you save your marriage if possible. Just warning you that most attorneys do not like their clients to make waves. They just want you to be as amicable as possible and make their jobs as easy as possible.

Yeah, opened a new account at the bank that's just me. Going to spend the next few days rerouting all of my autopays and my paycheck to it instead.

Contacted an attorney but no appt yet. Good tip though, I will keep that in mind and not mention exposure.

Went through my text history while waiting at the bank. This A has been happening for a while, at least 4 or 5 months. WW texts to me almost dry up after April, and lots of familiar excuses start to appear about being away from the house. I think it's been a competition in her mind between OM and I all summer, and finally she settled on me losing or felt too guilty to continue.

Lingering question: What if she talks to me and admits the affair? Continue to expose it? She'll expect me to tell everyone if she tells me, so I wonder if it still has the same effect.

Yes, once you have the facts, you should expose the affair.

Should be able to pay the PI tomorrow, moving the amount of money it cost took a while.

It's hard to believe how much of a roller coaster this sort of thing is emotionally.

After I found out about the money earlier, I was excited. I also realized that this relationship very closely matches some of WW's lifestyle before we were married and before she was a committed believer in Christ. She was wild, promiscuous and threw herself into destructive relationships with unbelievers and people she was actually scared to commit to long-term. OM's FB profile suggests a lot of these characteristics, so it looks like a spiritual relapse to me. That also gives me hope about when the fog lifts. She was a strong believer during our marriage and I think God will shake her up after exposure.

On the flip side, I found out through intel that she is getting an IUD installed and has an appt for this. This is just extremely frustrating because (1) we figured out around our anniversary when her sexual aversion finally ended that IUD was part of the solution and she promised she get an appt set up for one but never did (it was a constant point of conflict for us during spring/summer) and (2) she and OM are having a lot of unprotected sex apparently.

Between her history before me and now this, I feel like I tried to do the right thing by marrying her and ended up getting bookended by illicit sex while our actual marriage was a 6 year drought. I know now part of that was my fault for telling her to "fix it" and not trying to help more, but it really makes me question whether I want to continue. She couldn't wait for me (and even boasted about her sexual experience while we dated), gave me almost nothing during marriage in this dept, and now has cheated on me and given OM everything I was denied and patiently waited for.

I believe it is my spiritual obligation to continue this but God will have to work strongly on both her and I for me to just jump back into this if she gives me the chance. I have too many wonderful memories with her (and her family) in other areas to torpedo this just yet, but the pain of that realization is so deep. God will have to lead me through that door.

I'm planning on doing a Cheaterville post on OM. What about a post on Craigslist or online message boards dedicated to our area? Lots of possible targets to put pressure on the OM because of the nature of his profession.

Also planning on confronting the OM after I start exposure as suggested in another post. I've been wondering if this would be effective the whole time. Not violently, just sternly in explaining my intent to fight for her, make life inconvenient for him as long as the affair continues and also explaining the extent to which I care for her and the extent to which he is causing pain and destruction in our families.

I'll ask the PI to determine his employment status and was thinking of going over after the wife leaves his place for work and having a chit chat with him.

Very curious to see what dynamic prevails after exposure, wife is doing everything she can to maintain the deception. All of her stuff is still here as if this is just a "cool off" time for us where she's staying with a female friend. When her family finds out she's been staying at another man's house the stuff is really going to hit the fan. She's in a fantasy world right now.

Her intended conversation doesn't appear to be "I am so sorry, I want to come home now" or else she wouldn't be putting it off for days.

If it were me, strictly from a negotiating tactic, I'd let her know something came up on your schedule for Saturday but you'd look forward to talking next week. This will prevent you from blowing your cover (that you suspect) but it will also keep her in miserable anticipation of a dreaded conversation. She probably wants to "get it off her chest" so she can feel better. Just more unrest for her to experience in affair land.

I would not have any conversations with her until you have your PI information/confirmation and have exposed, so the exposure has the maximum surprise and impact.

An obligation for a spouse to keep a marriage covenant after adultery is not in the Bible; quite the opposite, the Bible gives the innocent party permission to divorce.

Be careful of heaping non-Scriptural obligations upon yourself. I see this type of error in well meaning church leadership advisers all the time. They try to read a cloaked intention hidden in the instructions when the passage is actually very clear as stated.

A classic one is if you are the betrayed spouse but you had SF after knowing about the adultery, the SF signifies forgiveness so now you can no longer have grounds of adultery for a Biblical divorce. They have added some of their "common sense" to Scripture but that's not what Scripture says.

If God intended for a betrayed spouse to have a continued spiritual obligation to make it work, He would have said that instead of clearly allowing divorce in the event of adultery.

Good points, Sunnytimes. I will try to stall her and already need to work Saturday afternoon to make up hours.

Just met with and paid the PI. He's going to try to GPS her today, and watch early next week. Now the fun starts.

The spiritual obligation is more of what I've received in prayer about this topic as well as recognizing my own poor spiritual leadership during our marriage and this episode being a result of that to some degree. She was more obedient in that dept and now she has fallen and I'm trying to stand in the gap.

As much pain as this has been, I feel if I ditch her now instead of trying to lead her back to the water, I abandon her in her weakest moment. She may not want to receive any help at this point and D might be inevitable. If that is to be, PI report will protect me/my assets, as well as giving me closure and the comfort of knowing I exposed the facts about the situation instead of her fallacies she had spun. I went down fighting the good fight.

But in the darkest point of this (night of separation announcement) before I suspected an A, I had a powerful prayer time and felt that I received a promise about this situation, that we would be restored. It goes against what everyone is advising me to do at this point, but the only comfort I find is in clinging to it and pursuing it doggedly. Talking to family, the practical side of me wants to just agree with them about starting over with someone else, but spiritually this just isn't what I am getting and each opened door in this process (finding $$$, finding intel, finding PI) has brought with it a little nudge of the Holy Spirit to continue.

That, and against all reason at this point, I still love her. The more irrational she becomes, the more I am able to sympathize with her condition of being fogged and her reckless actions as being impulse and not intentional.

No contact has been great for getting clarity and I plan on getting report, exposing if my suspicions are correct, and leaving the rest to God. I can't yank her out of the fog, I can only set the best conditions for it to lift and let God finish the story while I Plan A her. The rest for me will just be prayer and focusing on becoming a better person and potential partner for whoever. And who knows, maybe the PI will tell me I'm wrong about the A.

If God intended for a betrayed spouse to have a continued spiritual obligation to make it work, He would have said that instead of clearly allowing divorce in the event of adultery.

Jesus' answer in Mark 10 states that it was only given because of condition of our hearts, not that it's a valid reason to throw in the towel.

Otherwise, a man that lusts at all at women other than his wife is committing adultery in God's eyes, per Matthew 5:27,28.

Yes, expose it far and wide.
On Cheaterville it helps immensely if you have a "PROOF" attached to the post.

axeslinger,

I suggest that you hit the "Notify" button on the bottom of this post and ask the Moderator to move your thread to Surviving an Affair forum.

Just got the smoking gun. I have access to her voicemail and OM left her a voicemail yesterday calling her sweetie, talking about getting home, and saying "I love you". I know it's his # from other intel, it's on FB as well.

Begin exposure?

PI is still doing his thing but I'm fired up and ready to get started tearing this affair down!

Axslinger:

Do you have all your contacts ready for exposure?

Post your target list here (i.e., WW's parents, siblings, supervisor/HR, friends, colleagues; OM's spouse if any, parents, siblings, supervisor/HR, colleagues.)
You want to expose to everyone in as short a timeframe as possible, not scattered a few at a time. Veterans here will help you refine your list.

WW targets:
Parents (talking to them in person)
Siblings
A few close aunts/uncles including an aunt/uncle couple who has been the only ones in close contact with her the whole time. They're conservative Christians, I doubt she's told them about the affair, only that she wanted out.
Our pastor
Some close friends from church.
Her college profs they had shared classes with.
Some close friends who would disapprove.

OW targets:
Every single relative I can find on FB
Any mutual friends on FB with WW
College profs in their program.
Our pastor - Faith is big part of WW's wife and OM doesn't seem to identify as a believer (and is big sin if he does). I'm going to ask our pastor to talk to him about what WW and I have meant to our church.

Other plans:

Cheaterville post

Craigslist post

City-data.org

Contact local markets he's involved with as a vendor and advise them of his conduct with my wife

I'm going to confront the OM at his house the same day I talk to WW and ask her to stop. I'll confront WW as she arrives at her job, not at the house. I've got a little speech for OM I'm going to memorize (and post here) that basically says the following:

- I care very much about WW and will do anything to win her back and make her happy.
- I will find all sorts of creative and completely legal ways to make his life miserable until the A is over.
- WW's family and I are close and this relationship is hurting all of us very deeply.
- This relationship will ultimately hurt and isolate WW from her family and church if it continues.
- He was cruel to prey on WW during a hardship of hers (failure of her business).

I'm then going to give him a portfolio with about half a dozen pictures. Some of WW and I happy together, some of WW's family and I happy together, and a screen cap of a FB post she put up on our anniversary this year that affirms her love and gratitude for me and her desire to stay with me. Ask him to look that over and think about whether destroying that to satisfy his own impulses is something that makes him feel like a good person. I'm going to give a copy to WW too, but with a less combative version of the same statement to her.

Before I leave, I'm going to hand him a prepaid cell phone. I'm going to text WW's parents when I arrive and tell them to call in 15 minutes. After I finish speaking to him, I'm going to hand him the cell phone and say "WW's parents are going to call this phone in 10 minutes, so they can explain to you just exactly what you're doing and what it's going to do to our family. Of course, you don't have answer it, but if you care about WW you will. And if you don't, we'll all know that you don't really care about WW or her future." I'm going to ask WW's parents to explain how much the affair has hurt them, how much WW has changed her behavior towards the fam because of the affair, how much they know that I do to care for and support WW, how much WW's siblings will be hurt if our marriage is dissolved, how much they and siblings care for WW and I, and how much they and WW's siblings will be hurt if I'm no longer a part of WW's life.

Hand him the phone, say that, say "good luck" and walk off.

How's that sound?

Also I'm going to have a few of the less angry people from my family contact WW and explain that while I'm hurt, they don't hate her and won't reject her for this. I'm going to steer her parents towards more of the "talk off the ledge" approach as well because WW will not respond to criticism from family well, this whole episode has been one big middle finger to anyone trying to exercise authority over her.

Some of her extended family and friends aren't on her enemies list and could probably offer criticism, though.

For OM, I want to breed criticism from his family and guilt from ours. I think he's much more likely to buckle. Other than poor moral judgement, I don't think he's a bad or angry person. But WW is all sorts of angry at the world right now, and exposure is going to crank that to 11. I'm OK with that, I just know it's not going to help talk her off the ledge. I'm going to suggest to her parents that they offer to let her stay with them for a while, she's not going to want anything to do with me for a while.

Axslinger, you have a really great plan here, but I would ask them ALL to contact her. [exposure targets on her side, that is] You have no idea who will get through to her so don't try to control who and how. NO wayward responds to criticism well, so don't try to imagine you have any control over that.

I would also just ask her parents to call the dirtbag and tell him to stay away from their daughter and that he will never be welcome at their home. Have them call his phone # and don't give him any warning. He is a coward and worm who will avoid their call so don't help him escape their call.

Please don't do that. If they are moral, caring people they are not going to allow her to stay there while she is having an affair.

Agree x 1000

Agree x 1000 again!

Less is more with fogged out waywards. I would just add to bring someone with you to ensure the situation doesn't escalate into something that could get you into trouble.

I don't think you explained what this OM's connection is to your WW - do they work together? Also did you investigate whether he is married? (Separated still means married)

He won't care about this or about the pictures or FB post you plan to give him so I wouldn't bother. Just remember waywards are the equivalent of falling down drunks.

I just want to comment on this bc I also saw a comment from you about a spirtual relapse on the part of your WW and some other things. Try not to get caught up in analyzing why this happened. She was not a victim of the OM (as many BS's want to believe).

She has terrible boundaries around men. It's as simple as that! If you two end up working on recovery, she will have to agree to give up opposite sex friendships, etc. We will help you on that step when you get there.

Good luck with your exposure!

WOW ax you are doing good!

Good luck with this exposure, and kudos to you for having the tenacity and care for your marriage to follow through with a very bold exposure plan.

And don't forget to pray for ax and his wife. The praying needs to be kicked up a notch starting now.

Kave is a friend of mine. Thanks buddy.

Good points on FB post/photos...I'm just trying to gut-punch him in case he happens to be sentimental. I don't see how it can hurt. Dr. Harley's segment on confronting the OM (posted in another thread, can't remember which) suggested taking a firm but more sentimental approach so I'm trying to stick to that. I can also tell from the voicemail that this guy is a softie, and I am pretty good at being non-verbally threatening/confrontational so I'm not too worried about that.

On their connection: They're both culinary arts students (met in class) and he runs stands at the local farmers market. From what I can surmise looking at the facts, the relationship became an affair after he offered a job having her run a stand for him. She asked me for permission to do it after her business failed, and I had misgivings which I stated to her, but she said "oh, he's older...no chance there" and I let it go. BIG mistake looking back, but with the lack of acceptable OS boundaries, maybe this was bound to happen eventually.

A few weeks later she started telling me about how we should be praying for him because his mom and aunt both died, and I think the sympathy factor opened the door.

I tried and couldn't find a way to determine his marital status (not posted on FB), but with all that's happened, I'd bet money that he's divorced. I'd bet that opened the door for discussions about marital conflict, and wouldn't you know they probably had ALL the same problems with their spouses!

This is embarrassing to think about. WW and I had talked about boundaries for discussing marital problems before, we'd even chided friends with troubled marriages to stop doing it. Who knows, maybe it was something else that broke the levy, but I'd put my money on a massive pity party of that sorts being the start of all this if I had to guess.

Noted, I'll have them all contact her.

On the phone...the prepaid idea came about because if OM is anything like WW right now, he'll just stop answering his phone or checking his messages when the world disagrees with him. Giving him the phone and two interpreted choices forces his hand. If he wants to be a coward he'll do so with the understanding that I've designated that to represent a giant slap in the face to her parents.

WW's voicemail box is like a 20 car pileup right now. She's just ignoring everyone. Ditto Facebook. Very immature. Makes me wonder how much exposure will affect her, but I'm going to do it anyways. Not that she's already been exposed, I can just tell she's unplugging from everything right now. I put up a status asking for prayer for us during our counseling and tagged her, and every single one of her siblings contacted me offering support, so I'm sure she got tired of seeing that and decided not to log in anymore.

Also her parents won't threaten this guy. They wouldn't agree to that.

But the OM won't expect a call from the WW's parents, so he will have no reason to hide from that. But if you hand him a phone and tell him they will be calling, he won't answer for sure. He will just toss the phone.

I will reiterate that her parents need to make it clear to him that he will never be allowed to darken their doorsteps. That is an important move. Will they be willing to do this? Most parents are happy to do it.

Another thing you can ask of her parents is to call HIS parents and ask them to ask their creepy son to leave WW alone.

When you speak to the OM I would make it clear to him that there is no future for him with WW because he will never be welcome by her family.


Not sure what you mean by this.

Did you copy and save the OM's face book contacts? As soon as you start exposing he will shut his page down.

Did you read the Facebook exposure instructions on my exposure thread? Specifically, you will have to pay $1 to put your PM in their inbox, otherwise it goes to their spam box.

I mean that I know them well enough to know they won't threaten him. They're nice people, but they're the kind of people who will pray for God to soften the heart of the man holding them at knife point rather than grabbing the nearest blunt object and cleaning his clock with it. I'm the latter type, they are not. I'll pass along that it is recommended they tell him this, but I'm not optimistic.

Good points about expecting the call. I'll keep thinking/praying about that. WW wanted to keep the separation and counseling a secret and was unhappy that I told our families so I just have a feeling that she has him trained to shut down if he sees me. But I guess that's me making assumptions. I just worry about him going inside and turning his phone off or something, and I want to give him a harder choice to make.

Yes, I've been making lists of FB Names for both of them in case this happens. I'll reread the exposure thread too.

Hopefully they are DECENT people, though, and would not allow an adulterer and marriage wrecker who was leading their daughter to destruction in their home. I would not ask them to "threaten" the OM but to make it clear he will never be allowed to darken their doorstep. Ask them to help you in that way. If they allow the OM to come to their home, they will be nothing more than enablers and I am hopeful they CARE about their daughter too much to do this.

If they DO allow the OM in their home, they will become the enemy of your marriage and you will not soon forget that slap in the face if you and your wife get back together. We have reconciled couples on this forum who will have nothing to do with their in laws because they enabled the affair. I am hoping your inlays are not that type.


I don't think it is a strategic move to forewarn the OM, a demonstrated known coward, that her parents are going to call. He is not going to keep the phone and he won't take their call. A man who screws a married woman has already told you he is a coward. When you FOREWARN the enemy, you are forearming them. You don't want to do that.

An easy way to do this is to copy all the contacts and paste them into a text doc. Then when you open it up you can hit "control" and click on the link and it will take you right to their page.

You can tell them it will greatly discourage the affair if they tell the OM he will not be welcome there.

Thanks.

I'm great at converting pain and anger into determination, so this sort of thing is right up my alley, haha!

I've been looking forward to/planning exposure for a week, at least. It's a strange sort of catharsis to all of the pain and anguish this has been. I guess it's one of the only ways to feel any measure of control for the BS during an affair. You get the truth out, which is big to me when WW is trying to portray our whole marriage as a sham to everyone.

Now is the closest I've been to "excited" or "happy" about anything for a very long time, going back to when this all started.

These are great points. You've convinced me! Framing it that way, I think I can get them to do that.

Ditto on the phone. I guess I just thought it was more dramatic, but what you're saying makes sense.

axslinger, say it like this:

Sally and Jim, I am asking for your help in saving my marriage. I love your daughter and want her to be happy. I know she can never be happy in an adulterous affair with a man who obviously cares nothing about her. It would help me immensely if you would call the OM and encourage him to leave WW alone. If he knew you would never condone or enable this affair, it may cause him to rethink this affair. Can I ask for your help in this way?

Do you have the OM phone number?
If so, please post it on www.playerblock.com
Make sure that you post the number in the details of the comment box (not just when you register him as a cheater).
That way, he will have strangers call him on his phone too!

When you post on Cheaterville, it does help if you have his picture and some sort of proof.

Axe man,
I am glad you are confronting the other man. I would keep it to these two points:
1) Stay away from my wife or you will deeply regret it.
2) Repeat point #1.

Avoid any other talk. Don't appeal to reason or to his good side. Let him know you mean business and you are not one to be messed with. Walk backwards out of his office (I'd do it at his work place.) and keep steady eye contact the whole time.

Nevermind the other chatter you were going to have.

What do the rest of you think?

Justthe3ofus, your suggestion sounds fun/old school and Lord knows I'd love to get violent with or threaten this guy. I'm just trying to follow Dr. H and not get myself stuffed into the back of a police cruiser over a WS. I love her but it ain't worth it at this point.

Well, I am not advising something I havent done myself. I did that to a good looking and charming scumbag who was trying to start an affair with my wife and it chased him off.

Was it like an emotional affair that you broke up? Or he was just trying to get to know her?

In my case, she's been living with him for 10 days now. She's kinda committed.

Your situation is different. But your meeting with the POSOM doesn't need to be. Confront him and let know are fighting for your marriage and that you are a bad @$$ Adversary. That is all that is necessary.

Btw, your full on exposure will show him that you are not messing around. I think he is going to find out pretty fast he bit off more than he could chew. He will bail out. And that will hasten your wife's exit from the fog.

Have you listened to the clips in here?
"I Encourage BHs to Confront OM" Dr. Harley

Yes. Which is why I disagree with Justthe3ofus.

I do intend to confront this guy in a way that's scary to him as well, but also to do what Dr. H says

Strange things afoot today. WW texted me and wanted to "talk" tonight via phone. I figured this was the confession or more separation talk. I asked to postpone till tomorrow night, she said OK. Planning on confronting tomorrow morning and spending the rest of the day doing exposure.

I can't find her now and neither can the PI. PI called her Mon/Tues job to inquire and they said she took today/tomorrow off. He's going to check her other job and her parent's house (she might be over there confessing). Or at a lawyer's. Who knows.

I spoke to her parents last night, they are on board with exposure and supportive. Hoping they didn't tip her off, thought I could trust them.

Don't you have a GPS on her car? Did something happen to it?

It was a cell phone with a tracking service subscribed, and the cell battery died. I got about 4 or 5 days out of it, long enough to know she was staying the same place every night.

PI was going to do the GPS over the weekend but had difficulty locating her. She may have flown the coop over the weekend, now that I think about it. She wasn't at her work Sunday when he went by to install it, but she doesn't work every Sunday so I didn't think much about it.

The cowardice of all this is amazing. I bet she really wants to let me down over the phone while she's out of town. I guess it's better than via text.

Why are you waiting on exposure when you now have proof?

I would do exposure BEFORE you confront her. Really, there is no reason to confront her. YOU know she is having an affair. Obvioulsy SHE knows she is having an affair. What is the purpose of confronting?

You should do this exposure today, before she has a chance to have her big talk with anyone. You do NOT want her confessing before you do exposure, because she will just twist the events to make it seem like she just met this fellow while you were separated, and make you out to be the bad guy. You really want to get this information out ASAP.

I'm just going by the book, I guess. I thought we confront before we expose.

Do your exposure before you talk to her. If she comes to you spitting mad about exposure and says she is not in an affair, you can simply say that you have resources in place to verify that she is, and you have proof. If she continues on, you want to stay calm as James Bond and tell her that there is no reason to discuss it, because you know for a fact she is having an affair, and obviously she does to. That you are willing to do your part in creating a marriage that was better than before, if she ends her affair. If she says she wants to divorce, then you tell her that you love her and will fight for your marriage, and you will talk marriage but not divorce.

The key to ANY interaction with her right now is to be calm and in control. Do not engage in her anger. You are JAMES BOND cool and you stick to the verbiage of "I love you and I will fight for our marriage." Can you do this?

Your wife is in a fogged our wayward state, not in the right state of thinking. Right now your goal is to kill the affair, which means the sooner you do the exposure the better. Your second goal is to Plan A, while killing the affair. That means to focus on meeting her needs and avoiding love busters at all cost. That is why you need to remain calm and cool and not engage with her.

In a situation where a spouse is still living at home, that is generally the order of things. But your WW is out of the house living with her AP. You aren't in communication with her and don't even know where she is many days. In this case, I think you should do the exposure as soon as you have the evidence, and not wait to have a discussion with her.

I would tell you to email Dr Harley about it, but I really don't want you to wait on exposure while you are waiting on a reply. Especially since you have told other people (her parents) about the exposure. You need to get it done before she makes some preemptive strike. If she tells everyone before you, but twists the details, then it will be far far less effective in killing the affair.

Bottom line is that Dr Harley advises exposure. The before or after confronting her is semantics really, there is no advantage to waiting until after, but there IS an advantage in this case of doing it before.

I can do that.

Her parents asked me last night to wait to expose until I confronted. They're just in disbelief about all of this, I think they think she will come back to me if I only tell her I know. And they want to keep this under wraps if possible, I think they're very embarrassed and ashamed about it.

If I/PI can't place her today, I'll probably call them tonight and explain I have to expose first since she's left town.

With all due respect, you are fighting to save your marriage. Unless your WW's parents are some kind of marriage and infidelity experts, which I am guessing they are not, you need to run your own show here based on Dr Harley's advice because he IS a marriage and infidelity expert, who has saved thousands of marriages.

Would you allow them to talk you out of exposure? Your wife has ALREADY LEFT YOU. This means your situation is more critical than most of those on here, because it is further entrenched and more difficult to kill. You need to bring out the big guns. If you forego exposure, it could very well be the final nail in the coffin here. You canNOT let them talk you out of this.

And if you are not going to let them talk you out of this, then there is no reason to wait.

They should be embarrassed and ashamed, for their daughter. Having an affair is a shameful act. But it is the ACT that is shameful, not the exposure. It is their daughters actions of having an affair that is embarrassing, it is not YOUR actions of doing what you need to do to save your marriage.

Her parents are not advising you based on what is in her best interest, your best interest, or the best interest of your marriage. They are avoiding their own discomfort at exposure.

Assure them that you love them and do not want to do anything to hurt them, because they are victims of this affair too! But you are going to do everything you can to kill this affair and save your marriage.

Good points.

Guys...I don't know what to do here, to be honest. I feel like I'm getting a lot of different advice. Obviously the situation on the ground is changing but I don't want to jeopardize what the PI is doing in case this goes to D.

Also, I have no proof to post to somewhere like Cheaterville at this point. I simply have information on where she's been staying as well as this affectionate voicemail from him. I'll expose everything I can, but just wanted to point that out. I was hoping PI could get me photos or something.

There is an important consideration to remember when confronting OM:
Dr. Harley is a trained psychologist and in control of his thoughts and actions.
If you are at risk of loosing your temper and breaking the OM kneecaps and making him beg for mercy, then confrontation by yourself isnt a good idea.
In either case, bring a level headed friend along

The fact she is living with him is proof enough.
Any rational person would understand that they are having sex without the need to look at photos.

I'm going to try to get a couple friends from church to go with me for that reason. I think I could control myself but if he got mouthy with me or started the fight I think I'd probably lose control.

Though now I'm confused about what to do now since OM/WW have apparently disappeared.

Axe,

You need to expose without first confronting her.
Just expose expose expose.

Please list the opposite advice, so we can clear things up for you. Nobody here is trying to give you opposite advice, but rather follow the advice that Dr Harley gives. If anyone here disregards Dr Harley's advise, then that is the advise you should throw out.

I understand you thinking ahead to D. But is your main focus here to set things up that are better for you in the case of divorce? Or to kill this affair and save your marriage? If the latter, then exposure is the single most important weapon you have.

They may have went on a lovers retreat.
They'll be back

I absolutely concur. Proof does not mean you have to have photos of them in the sack. You have a wife who has left you and lied about her whereabouts, while shacking up with a man. You have voicemails left by that same man that prove a relationship. That is proof enough to convince a jury.

I don't think you need ANY proof to expose on Cheaterville, but I know little about that site.

I just had a thought about PI, and you guys are right. After exposure, where she going to go? If she doesn't want to reconcile, it's not like she's going to come back.

IMO it is fine to expose while they are gone. It means that they will not get word of the exposure and start doing damage control as quickly as they would if they were here and found out about it as you were exposing.

While they mean well, they don't know how to save marriages. "Keeping it under wraps" will kill your marirage for sure because affairs thrive on secrecy. They are hoping she will end her affair if you confront her and that you will, therefore, AVOID epxosure. That is not how this works. Even if she agrees to end the affair, it still needs to be exposed.

You need to expose this NOW and confront her later. They have no idea what will or won't compel her to come back. What will cause her to come back is killing the affair. And the way you kill the affair is to EXPOSE it.

When will the parents discuss the affair with her?

And please stop shopping for opinions from people who have no earthly idea how to save marriages.

Expose the affair without delay. You want as many people as possible calling them TODAY to ask them about their affair. You have no reason to wait any longer.

She has a place to go: THE OM'S!! I predict she will stay there for a few more days/weeks as the affair crumbles and then hopefully she will come back to you.

What you need to say in your exposure is that "my wife is having an affair with Joe Dirtbag and has moved into his apartment according to my tracking." Don't divulge your exact evidence. You just tell them she is having an affair and has moved in with him according to your evidence.

"And please stop shopping for opinions from people who have no earthly idea how to save marriages."

It's not quite like that. It's more like people around me not understanding why I'm doing this and urging me not to, or to do it in a certain way. Almost everyone on my side of the family, for example, does not want me to do this, they just want me to ditch WW. Not that they know anything about how to do this either, I'm just trying to explain the pressure I'm getting about exposure. I'm not soliciting opinions here, they're just reacting.

But you're right. Boldness is required and I'm getting started on this right now. It's not their marriage in the balance, it's mine.

I understand your family being upset with WW and wanting you to ditch her and move on. But even if you choose to D, which you can choose to do at any time, exposure is still the right path.

This is a horrible crime being done to you and your marriage, if it results in the end of your marriage, why would you want to hide the reason why your marriage ended? Why would you want to live with that very life changing event in the shadows for the rest of your life? Why not expose it now and have a *chance* of making your marriage work?

Exposure is the answer regardless of where this leads, recovering your marriage or divorce.

Stop talking about exposure, and just do it. You are shopping for advice by including everyone else in on your plan.

You have a GREAT exposure plan. But it is worth absolutely nothing if you sit idly by while your wife shacks up with another man, and don't follow through with it.

What I meant is she's not going to come back to my house or move into her own place which would complicate what the PI is doing.

I'm on board with you guys, I'm going to get started today.

That was the kind of reaction I got too from my family. However when I said: "why shouldn't people know? And "I won't cover up for him" they got it.

Now they think it was the greatest idea in the world. They were as appreciative as I was by the support that came back for me. They couldn't believe it when some people supported the affair.

See exposure is eye opening. Everybody thinks you can predict reactions - but you can't. Your family are going to be just as surprised - and grateful - for the very specific knowledge you will all gain about the people in your world as a result of this.

You nailed it right there!!!

Axslinger,

You are doing good, keep your finger on the trigger with the exposure.

One of the things I've heard Dr Harley talk about during his radio show. Exposure causes the affair either to end much sooner or if it does not end the affair allows you to decide to divorce much sooner.

In any event exposure causes conflict between the affair partners much sooner as well as it ends the fantasy stage of the affair.

God Bless
Gamma

Just finished Facebook exposure. This is quite a rush, almost nerve wracking. But good.

Keep up the good work, axslinger!!

Good; now post OM on Cheaterville and if you have his phone number post him and his phone number on www.playerblock.com

Just got the first blowback on any of it. WW texted me threatening me over having put comment's on OM's business's page about how he takes liberties with married women. Her comments were that "this is between you and me, that's it" and STILL calling him her "friend".

I told her I knew about everything. Her response "what the heck are you talking about?" Still thinks she's pulling this off!

When a betrayed spouse exposes......the wayward gets scary nasty and threatens all sorts of things to try to control and stop the truth from being revealed.

Expect your WW to sound wickedly scary and to see a side you didn't know existed.

It is normal for that to happen.

Breathe.

I hope you stated facts so it was an effective exposure. Just the comment that he takes liberties with married women would be very ineffective.

you did great!! Hopefully you finished up your exposures and have battened the hatches. Will her parents speak to her about her affair?

Your wife is going to go ballistic, but deep down in her pysche she knows you're fighting for her. She'll get over the anger.

OM's FB page has been taken down. Not sure what that means but it's amusing.

Some sibling conflict in WW's family where one of the single siblings said my message about WW sounded like an attack, but one of WW's married sisters jumped in to my defense and sent me a separate message saying that she texted the other sib about how inappropriate her comments were. Sooooo good to be understood in this.

I've sent the voicemail to a handful of people in the family who have been asking for evidence. I wish I had more, but given the circumstances I don't see how people can see it any other way.

Very curious to see if WW will continue to try and hold up the denial to her family. Right now her cage has to be rattled, she still hasn't responded to my last text.

"OM's FB page has been taken down. Not sure what that means but it's amusing."

It means the torpedo hit its target and the Love Boat is sinking.

Did everything except confrontation, on which I'm waiting for WW and OM to surface.

Not sure if I did FB right for OM. I can pull his account up on another computer and it's fine, it only doesn't work when I'm logged into my profile.

I'm not getting an option for the $1 when I type in his relatives?

This is hard, and it's not my fault, but my bro in law is so hurt by this he could hardly say anything to me. I called him to follow up because his FB response was troubling. I don't think he's mad at me, just very hurt because we're close. I hurt for him. One of the most awkward phone conversations I've ever had.

Did you post OM on Cheaterville?

Yes

Just wanted to mention that after the FB exposure was done, my parents and WW's parents and I got together to discuss and pray about the situation. It was so awesome, because everyone was on a different page coming into the discussion (lots of different feelings), but after a long prayer where we went around the room and everyone took their turn, we all finished on the same page. Everyone "got it". Everyone understood the plan and what has to be done going forward.

So encouraging after all of getting ping ponged between families on what to do for several weeks, it was unbelievably powerful. God is power.

Nice that both sets of parents are on the same page. It helps when you have support from both sides of the family. Your wife will be held accountable. She won't like it, but it will be one of the strong forces to lead her back to her marriage. That's a big part of the power of exposure. Had you not exposed, none of this would be possible.

Did you send the PMs on a PC? I don't think the $1 option shows up on a mobile device.

And you did just great, axslinger!!

Yes, I sent them on a PC. My friend thinks the OM just blocked me from his FB and that's why it's like that.

Axslinger,

You wrote, WW texted me threatening me over having put comment's on OM's business's page about how he takes liberties with married women. Her comments were that "this is between you and me, that's it" and STILL calling him her "friend".

Oh he has a business, well his clients and customers need to know that this is a man who should not be trusted around their wives or girlfiends. Print up posters detailing his character attach to telephone poles in the vicinity of his shop. Check his linkedin account too.

Also post him on www.cheaterville.com after it draws thousands of "views", let him know about it.

The responses show that the medicine is working.

God Bless
Gamma

Did you go to the friends fb page and click on "message" and then fill out the PM box? Even if the OM had blocked you, that wouldn't prevent you from going to someone else's page.

They all know she has been living with him, right?

axslinger, were you able to locate his parents? Can you contact them directly?

No luck with his parents. I sent every family member I could find a message and went to "All Messages" and then started typing in their FB name. I'll try going to their page first, good idea. What's weird is all of my messages to them no longer show up in sent folder.

On his parents, no luck yet. Asked everyone in his family I messaged have them call me at my cell.

Regarding what her parents/family know:

WW is STILL trying to play this off as my imagination to them. She is terrified because this is a family where this sort of thing does NOT happen.

My evidence:

She left the house for almost 2 weeks without providing a full name, address or phone number of where she was staying. Only a first name of a female friend none of us know that's described as a co-worker.

I found a female friend that's a coworker with this name on WW's FB, and discovered her address. It was several miles away from where WW was parking each night.

I found OM's address online. It's about a block away from where WW was staying each night, and might be closer since it was a GSM/cell tracker and not GPS (less accurate).

Everyone in the family has noticed her talking to/about OM on the phone frequently.

OM left her a voicemail yesterday saying "hey sweetie, i'm on my way home. (etc.) I'll see you soon. Love you, bye". I have a copy of this.

I've presented those facts just as such to the family, and this is why I hired the PI. I wanted him to close the case beyond any doubt (reasonable or otherwise).

WW's dad texted me this morning about things. WW is apparently trying to plead her case with him but he's not buying that it's not at least an EA, and is admitting he's having to really reach to think it's not PA.

I wish WW would just stop this insanity and admit it. She's only making things worse for herself and her family.

I don't think the messages were sent because if you sent out of your own mailbox, it is not going to work. The way to do it is to go to THEIR page, click on "message" and a box pops up. You paste in your message at that point. At the bottom of that box, you should have an option to put it in their inbox for $1.

Axslinger,

BTW the OM may threaten to sue you for libel or slander, but it is an empty bluff.

If the OM gets on the witness stand and admits he is in an affair with your WW you are not guilty of libel.

If the OM lies on the witness stand and claims he is not in an affair he is guilty of perjury and YOU have a case for false charges.

God Bless
Gamma

^I've considered this possibility and I have no fear. If they want to take me to court, I can have my attorney file a motion for discovery to procure the phone/text records between them and it will be game over for OM.

You got it!!

WW now texting her sibs claiming I'm lying about her.

Also, I tried doing FB PMs the other way and it said I've been temporarily blocked from performing this action.

Did you space out your PMs a minute or so apart? If you send a bunch out closely together, FB will block you from sending more. Wait a while, then try again, but space them out.

It should allow you to do this shortly again. Be sure and space them out 60 seconds apart.

How were you sending them before? Is it now allowing you to pay the $1 to put the PM in the inbox?

That is expected. I don't think you should have been have so ambiguous about her living with the OM. That gives her wiggle room to deny your claims.

What is the PI doing?? Has he come up with anything??

Axslinger,

You wrote, WW now texting her sibs claiming I'm lying about her.

So WW is desperately trying to cover her lies with more lies, and a week from now she will not remember those lies and will tell her sibs different lies.

You can see how exposure causes an affair to unravel at high speed, and why you have to tell the story first.

When you put OM on cheaterville hit (F5) to reload your browser and increase the number of "views" he gets.

God Bless
Gamma

And keep in mind, you don't need her admission. Most way wards do deny the truth.

It now gives me the option but I think OM has marked my account as a spammer or something. I'd waited overnight before I tried and still no dice.

On WW, I didn't really have any more evidence than I stated. I was hoping PI could tie this all together but after WW disappeared from her regular schedule yesterday, I followed the advice on here. I told PI to hang back until Friday so he's not burning up my retainer trying to drive all over the place and find her. Him waiting until Sunday to try and GPS her has not been good to us.

Her family seems to understand that she's hiding something and if she's not, why not come out of hiding?

She's going to be caught in a catch-22 I think because while I'm sure my tracking of her car has gotten filtered back to her through her family, it's not like she can just decide not to come to work anymore. PI knows where she works, when she's scheduled, and what she looks like, as well as OM (I have pics of him too).

axslinger,

I read your exposure on Cheaterville.
I dont think you were clear enough and I hope your FB exposure is more clear.
You should go back and edit the posting and clearly state: "This man is carrying on an affair with my wife"

He can't do that. Just keep trying and you should be able to get through. Even if you have to set up a new account, you need to do this. You must expose to his family and I don't think you got through before, do you?


I think it would be a good idea to pretend like you have more evidence than you do. You KNOW she is living there with the minimal evidence you do have.

Even so, I believe most people will believe you.

Did you expose the affair at work?

It is REAL important that you expose to the OM's contacts so don't give up! Exposing to his family, friends and workplace is likely to run this RAT off. You need to drive this dirtbag AWAY.

On FB, I won't give up. I think he's more likely to buckle than she is and I intend to keep the pressure on him any way I can until the A is dead. He's a lot more vulnerable in that regard because he has more visibility.

Her parents both texted me this morning and I think they've just accepted what has happened. Very supportive, and I think they've read between the lines and put it all together. It's just the sibs who are mixed up, and one of them is married and I think also realizes the truth.

Also I recommended MIL buy and read SAA, and she was talking to me about what she's gleaned from it about our situation which is very encouraging.

On saying I have more than I have....I'm a terrible liar. The worst.

When I had caught WW talking to OM a few weeks ago, she'd mentioned getting him a job at her employer (she now works for a hotel...her "job" at OM's business never materialized)...I tasked the PI with finding out where he works, I intend to do workplace exposure if possible. The hotel is a Fortune 500 co, I'm sure they will have a policy. Right now it appears he's still running his stand at special events, not sure where else he draws income. WW didn't spring the separation announcement until she had 2 jobs so I'm curious if he has financial problems.

Noted, I'll be more specific. I've been trying to toe this line between exposing as much as I can about OM without exposing too much about WW in the public view. Am I thinking about that right?

Try a different computer or set up a new profile for yourself. It doesn't make any sense that this wouldn't work for you and that the messages wouldn't be in your sent folder.

The other man wouldn't have marked you as spam because from what you have said NONE of your messages went thru.

Keep trying. Make it happen! It is THAT important!!

You need to be very clear that they are having an active affair.
Posting that he makes good waffles and texts your wife all the time is a far cry from posting 'He started an affair with my wife which has devastated our marriage"

If you keep having problems with FB I can show you how to get around the FB messages and send them very easily.
Have you been able to send the messages or do you need help?

I saw in your post something about the OM preying on your W while she was weak/vulnerable. I posted to you about this earlier and I don't think you responded.

I would just get that out of your head and I wouldn't try painting her as a victim in your exposures or trying to get OM to take the brunt of the fall vs your WW.

That is great, but I want to make sure you are drawing a CLEAR LINE in your narration. for example, you should be saying "wife is having an affair with Joe Dirtbag and moved in with him 2 weeks ago." Versus, vague language like "she moved out and the GPS puts her a block from his house and I have this voicemail."

Don't just leave it to people to figure out on their own. State up front that she is having an affair and is staying at OM's.

I thought the bit about calling him a sociopathic homewrecker was succinct but I get what you're saying. I'll edit it.

In other words, don't be ambiguous about the truth. That is a rookie mistake. You have enough evidence for any rational person to rightly conclude that a) she is having an affair with OM and b) has moved in with him. Court verdicts are decided on LESS evidence than that!

Just because I'm saying that to OM to make him feel like a POS doesn't mean I believe it's the absolute truth. Lack of OS boundaries for WW is what started this (along with me not meeting her ENs), I'm keenly aware of that. I have no intention of shouldering this on OM when it comes to reconciliation with WW.

I think susie was referring to your Cheaterville exposure, where you explained your wife was "going through some rough times in her life"

Exactly. VS that she moved in with him.

How is it helpful to the purpose Cheaterville post to paint my wife as complicit and willing? Isn't the point to make OM look bad?

Sir, you dont have to name her by name but she obviously isnt incompetent or forcefully kidnapped by him

Yes, I could use some help here. I want OM exposed to his family.

Just state the truth on Cheaterville. This POS is having an affair with my wife. Right now it doesn't even say they are having an affair.

But you did get a response from someone who seemingly knows him, so that is good!

Keep your chin up Ax, you are doing good here and making a tremendous blow to this affair.

Got it.

Oh, and send the messages "return receipt requested" so you know if they read them or not

Start with the last names, some relatives may have 50 "friends" with the last name..some such as OM may have only a handful.
But they are all related and good exposure targets

wow, that works!! I just tested it.

JK,

Another trick is to look for woman who have the last name by marriage, will often put their maiden name in their facebook name. You can often find all of those in-law type relatives as well.

God Bless
Gamma

Anyone know how to edit the Cheaterville posts?

I don't believe you can do that. BUT you can easily add a comment in the reply section.

What happened w FB exposure ??

It's already done and his family is contacting me back asking me not to contact them again.

WW just called me for the first time in 2 weeks. VERY angry.

Claims this is only an EA, no PA. That she's been staying with friends and not OM. She was convincing in that regard but her conduct is still so suspect that I don't trust her.

Asked me to stop pressuring OM in exchange for showing her family where she's been staying and that it's not OM's house. Told her that even if it's EA, their relationship is inappropriate for both of them because she is married, and that I will continue to fight for her.

She said "well, I'm done and I'm done talking to you, and this is just pushing me away". She thinks I'm trying to destroy everything with her family by doing this and that it's a vengeance thing for me. Either she's lying or doesn't understand the concept of EA.

Thoughts?

Axslinger,

Even if your WW does not come back to you, I doubt you will have to suffer seeing her with OM and the pain that would cause.

Should you end up dating if you divorce, this is a great story to tell your next partner and should scare away those with large cheating potentials.

You've stood up for yourself which is not the norm, the norm is for the betrayed spouse to hide away and carry the burden of their suffering alone, while maintaining the secrecy of the perpetrators.

I suspect that after your WWs mind clears she will see the OM as old and unattractive and will come back to you.

God Bless
Gamma

She is lying. Don't fall for it. Just stick to your plan and keep up your exposures. Have you completed the Facebook exposures to the OMs contacts?

The purpose of the call was to scare you off from further damage to the OM. Don't let that happen.

And don't act like you believe the nonsense about the EA. It is a PA. Women don't leave their husbands for EAs. She has been sleeping with him this whole time.

She is lying.
All waywards lie, lie, lie. You will not believe she is the same woman.
The "this is pushing me away" line is classic wayward script, it is a guilt trip and proves that you hit the mark with exposure.

FB exposures are done. Family, friends, etc. She's going to push back hard with the family and some of them are stammering about it but I think everyone knows by this point that something is amiss with her.

Yeah, I have no intention of being done with the OM. He's obviously getting angry about my work so far and I'm just getting started. Even if she wants to push this as an EA, that only makes my job easier if they haven't had sex yet. Nobody wants to watch their reputation get flushed down the toilet for an EA.

Expose it at HIS work, that will be a devastating blow.

I dont think he has a job.
He sells waffles from a street cart

You will need to login and post a comment.
You can also post evidence after logging in

This made me laugh out loud. You guys are great.

The person on Cheaterville mentioned a storefront location, might check that out tomorrow. Not to confront, just to scout. I still need to recruit some "restrain me" personnel before I confront.

The more I think about it, the more it's hilarious to me that WW is the one trying to defend OM from my efforts and he's not doing it himself. Someday she will feel stupid about this because when she and I were dating I actually ran off one of her ex-boyfriends who was stalking her. Someday that contrast is going to register with her.

Think I should post the voicemail clip?

Yes, I think you should post the voicemail clip

I'm hesitant because I don't want her to think that's all I've got on her. Then again she may not even view the Cheaterville profile.

Thinking about the discussion earlier today, I don't think I've ever heard her as angry as she was today. Not like emotional or yelling, just hate. Pure controlled hate. I don't think I've ever heard her talk to anyone like that.

Not scary, just weird.

Well, dont worry about posting it.
The important thing is that you personally contacted family and friends.

Did you contact the OM father?
You may want to send him a letter

I haven't been able to figure out who his dad is yet. I don't think his family relations are listed on FB. Good idea though, I'll see if I can figure it out.

I bet he is also denying the relationship to his family. Birds of a feather.

Good job!! You are doing just great. And don't worry about your wife's reaction. Just imagine that you have taken the crack pipe away from the crack head. They are FURIOUS. You need to understand that analogy in order to understand your wife's mindset. She is an addict and you have interfered with her drug. You have brought a crowd of people into the crack house and she is LIVID.

So don't worry about her reaction, no matter how hateful. Just focus on running the OM off. Once you run him off, she will sober up and go back to her normal self.

I would search and search to find his dad and mother. Have you tried google, intelius, spokeo?

You can purchase an online background check (which I highly recommend) for around $50.

Awesome, thanks Jedi. Go for it.

What I would do, since the OM father is in a home, is mail a letter to him at the home and ask if he can use his influence to persuade his son to end his affair.

EDIT: if the OM father is too unhealthy to read it, the nurses wont give it to him anyways

I'm going to have to spend some time thinking/praying about that. I can't place my finger on exactly what, but I have misgivings about that.

It may be the greatest advice the old man gives his son

Have you finished emailing all of the relatives?
If not, get it wrapped up ASAP.

From here on out, plan for a bitter response, followed by threads of a "slander lawsuit" from OM. Just ignore them.

It is important that you are in Plan A, as this exposure WILL cause conflict between OM and your wife. You need to have your house as a refuge from the conflict.

No love busters, just love bank deposits when you speak with her

What does playerblock do?

I think I am going to contact the dad. It's the truth and it's not my conduct that caused this situation.

Still need to confront OM, going to make a plan on when/where to do that today since WW's car has disappeared. High hopes for the effect of that.

Ready to Plan A and watch things fall apart, but to be honest, it's going to be difficult to Plan A her. She won't answer my calls or texts. She's completely isolated herself.

You certainly should contact OM father.
He may be financing his son and may have more influence than you think.

The OM is pretty much a deadbeat.
He owns a house (how did he pay for it without money?) and has a child support order of $150 a month.
That's got to be close to the minimum child support order due to lack of income.
So how does he pay for the waffle stand and the house?
Most likely a relative is financing him.
If the relative has any morals, they will tell OM to stop his adultery or be cut off. Then watch how fast he dumps your wife.

Ax, you should definitely expose to OM's Dad. He may be the one with the greatest influence on OM.

My WH's best friend's wife was dying of cancer during exposure. I thought hard about involving them, but decided to do so. The gravely ill wife had some of the BIGGEST impact on WH, when she told him how very disappointed she was in my WH, and that she wanted to see him get it sorted before she died.

You don't know who will have the greatest influence over OM. Expose to the Dad.

Good advice, catwhit. Hadn't thought of it that way.

Jedi, you are a stud. I won't ask about sources but any way I could get a copy or report of any of that? I'd like to have proof positive of his address, for example. All I'm running on right now is a Spokeo record.

Amused about how much WW wanted me to stop exposing OM, it has to be an indicator of conflict. Her conversation was full-on foglighting, trying to guilt trip me for exposing an affair that isn't happening (according to her), accusing me of trying to "destroy her family".

After I started getting particular about my facts, the conversation suddenly turned to "I wasn't in love with you when I got started with OM" and trying to say that because of this, my exposure claims were not fair or valid. I calmly refuted that EVEN STILL she is my wife, and certainly was whenever they got started, so all of it was valid.

This turned to bargaining about things in exchange for me leaving OM alone. Most of the bargaining was about taking me to places to prove she hadn't been staying with OM. I hadn't actually shared the voicemail with her that I have, but I did that last night on FB. Hopefully going to put an end to the foglighting about no affair. A wayward's capacity for short sighted dishonesty is truly amazing.

Talking to her (and thus visiting crazytown) was a little nerve wracking last night, but even with a few hours of perspective, I can tell the medicine is working. Thank you guys for the advice and support. I'll keep you guys up to speed, I'm not hardly done with OM.

You can obtain his address and ownership of house records from the County Tax Assessor online.

EDIT: His divorce and child support records can be viewed online, through the state courts site.

The next time your wife complains about your exposure, dont argue or try to convince her she is having an affair (trust me, she knows she's having an affair unless he drugs her and has sex with her with she is catonic).

Simply tell her: "I am willing to work with you to create a loving marriage where both of our needs are met but you must first end your affair"

and repeat and repeat as necessary. You need to get that through her foggy brain

Also I'm going to send a second round of emails to his family with the voicemail attached. I have a sneaking suspicion that there's major denial on his side of the family and they will certainly recognize his voice in it.

I don't think that's necessary.
Let them contact you if they have questions and if needed you can share evidence then.

If you want to share the voicemail, post it on Cheaterville.
However, he can still deny it and say "Oh, that was a joke" or "oh, that was for some girl I was dating and she's mad at me and making this all up"....

Believe me, he can have 10,000 excuses.

You are doing great seeing through the fog babble! One of the effects of an affair is to rewrite history in their minds. Since she is high on an affair with the OM, she looks at her past with you in a new light. It is like being high on crack and then deciding your past [when you were not high] was a big fat nothing. That is all she is doing.

And you are correct, married is married. Falling out of love is a problem to be resolved, not an excuse to have an affair. I ASSURE you that the affair is the reason she left the marriage, and not because she fell out of love. That is not how women operate.

And lastly, I want you to be a broken record with her and say: "I am asking that you end your affair with OM. Regardless of how our marriage works out, he is an affront to me. I love you and want to save our marriage but that cannot happen as long as you are in contact with him."

Just say that over and over again.

I agree thats a great idea. Most ppl won't contact you to ask you for the evidence if they have been persuaded by a liar that you are a kook.

Perfect!!

I'm not having much luck with this. I believe you, I just think I'm doing it wrong.

WW's sibs forwarded me a text she sent to all siblings offering to have them meet the people she's been staying with and refuting that there's anything "physical" between her and OM. This is such a circus.

It is expected she will deny it. Thats ok. Did you play them the recording?

Just FB'd it to all of them and gave them OM's cell number if they wanted to follow up. If he doesn't answer, I'm sure he's got a voicemail greeting. They'll be able to recognize the voice.

The amount of collateral damage WW is creating by fighting the truth is just kind of staggering to me. I know waywards are reckless, but I truly have no idea what she is thinking.

Axslinger,

Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!

Remember your WW in a very real sense is addicted to OM and like any addict is powerless to change the ugliness of their behavior.

Your WW went from being in heaven with the greatest man the world has ever known to having her world crash in one day due to exposure.

Your WW also understands that in spite of words of support, there is now no future with OM, as everyone knows who and what OM is.

God Bless
Gamma

Axe,
You are very focused on the exposure piece of this. Great job. Your Plan A stick is very strong, and you are following through well. You still have to confront the POSOM. Looking forward to seeing how that goes, even if you and I have different ideas on how that should go.

But how is your Plan A Carrot doing? Are you doing anything to express your care and concern for her? Are you avoiding disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts when you see her? Have been clear with her that you are not being vindictive and that you are just fighting for your marriage.

That spiritless, cold hate you see in her eyes when you speak with her is the devil taking hold of her. She is addicted to this new and illicit love connection. But it's only a fantasy with no strong foundation. Your actions will popp her fantasy bubble. Already, you are making life hell for their relationship.

When I exposed OM, my wife looked at me and her eyes had a literally crazy look in them. I'd never seen that before...it was scary!

Yes.

Good questions. Hoping to confront OM at his stand at some point this week/weekend. Should have clues on his biz FB page as to when that will be.

Since I don't have much contact with WW, I've been sticking to texts and voicemails. I've decided to start calling her in the morning and evening and leaving a message telling her that I love her, and then praying over her. That used to be something we did together and I think it will be a friendly reminder. Hopefully when she understands the call is safe she'll start picking up and praying with me, that would be an awesome step forward.

I've never been one for AOs, I think I could count the ones I've had over 6 years on 1 hand. Both of us are pretty cool headed. Notably, at least 2 of those were in the months leading up to "I don't love you anymore" announcement. Not as big of a problem as the affair but I'm sure they contributed.

DJs, on the other hand, are a major LB of mine. There have been a few as a result of our exchanges about OM, and I can do better about that with a little mental preparation about how to talk about that respectfully. Most of the recent ones have been barbs about her dishonesty or the self-destructiveness of her actions. But I've said all that needs to be said to that end.

Here's food for thought:

Have a friend (or pay an honest panhandler) to PICKET the Farmers Market he sells his waffles at!
You can pay a homeless guy $20 to picket with a sign that reads "The Waffle Guy Is An Adulterer!" and hand out printouts of his internet exposure on the sidewalk!

You are doing a great job.
Exposure kills most affairs so there is a good chance this affair will quickly crumble

Jedi,

Found out the right courts search option.

OM has two different kids on child support from different mothers, neither of which he was married to. Freakin champ. *shakes head*

Also divorced since 1996.

Couldn't find anything on a home yet. His LLC is registered to his brother's address, which is actually in a pretty nice neighborhood (drove by today). Brother seems like quite a contrast from what I can tell, married and successful. I still haven't re-sent OM's family messages with his voicemail but doing that tomorrow morning before work.

Holy crap this is great idea. LOL

Doesnt the PI have the address of where they live?

As I recall, one of the kids is from the ex wife.
The other kid was from a girlfriend and he went to court with another man (she was running around) ...and the other guy was the father.
His original divorce did not include child support but she later filed for it.

But none of that matters.
The important part is that you exposed properly and now you need to focus on Plan A.

Dr. Harley has stated on the radio program that he does not believe in the "carrot and stick" model for Plan A. Plan A has no "stick" in that nothing in Plan A is ever done as punishment of the WS. So, addressing Plan A with a carrot and stick paradigm is obsolete and not a part of current MB principles.

^But I get what he's saying. Exposure is stick, Plan A is carrot.

Exposure isn't stick.... That would imply punishment...

Exposure is stopping the enablement of the A. Exposure is stopping protection of your WW (and OM) by letting them deal with the consequences of their actions.

Exposure is letting your family and friends know so that they can support YOU through this.

Well, I guess I was more referring to the balance in the WW's LB. Exposure is a massive withdrawal from WW's LB. Plan A is deposits.

That is a needless distraction.
Exposure is not a stick just because it withdraws love units. Again, that implies that exposure is used to PUNISH the wayward.

Instead, exposure is more like lancing a wound so that it can heal. It is very surgical, and healthy and BENEFITS the wayward.

There is no punishment.

In Surviving an Affair, Plan A is defined as exposing the affair and expressing a willingness to meet emotional needs.

Skipping exposure means you are doing some plan besides Plan A!

Exactly. Exposure IS Plan A.

Gotcha. Well, in any case, the exposure part has definitely happened and is going to continue with OM. Everything I've seen on him so far suggests a very weak character and I'm not giving up until he buckles.

Getting all sorts of good ideas on upping my game on Plan A. Even if WW won't see me I know where she works and can leave gifts and notes in her car.

WW just texted to say she moved her stuff out. Going to bet she's got her own house she's renting at this point and is planning on batting down the hatches and waiting me out. Thoughts?

Cant remember if you have an attorney or not, consult ASAP.
Might want to seperate finances and get locks changed, just to protect yourself from craziness. It has happened before.
Not very Plan Aish, but waywards do crazy things when the crack pipe is pulled out of their hands.
Make sure you have a VAR at all times.

After exposure A period of extreme craziness is normal, it seems to be proportional to depth of the affair.

Finances already way separated. Probably going to evacuate all of my valuables. VAR is a good idea, and will be going on the phone pronto. Changing locks is complicated, we've been renting her parent's old house.

I'd like to pursue that because at this point she is so erratic it's hard to know what's next and she knows exactly how to damage me with regards to possessions. Would you guys recommend I move to another location or try to stay? My lease is up in Nov.

And I say erratic because it appears erratic to me, but what I worry about is more that this is calculated and planned. I don't think exposure has rattled her as much as OM. This past 2 or 3 months has been a calculated escape plan for her from what she's told me and I think the affair collapsing would be the only thing to cause her to abandon it at this point. The 5 weeks of counseling was extreme plan A on my part, doing every single thing I could think of to make her happy, and not really putting much of a dent in her resolve.

Short of the A falling apart or divine intervention, I don't see much hope from here, even with full on Plan A.

axslinger, it is way, way too soon to give up. Right now she is in damage control mode and she has not really realized how badly your exposure wrecked the future of her affair. See, now that you have exposed her, she can never bring her affair out into the light of day, because that will be an ADMISSION. Her plan all along was to pretend the marriage had fallen apart and AFTER you had broken up, she met this new guy. She was going to ease him into the picture. She can't do that now. Not only that, but HIS family now knows she is a married woman who is committing adultery! Some of his family won't let her darken their doorstep.

Have you confronted dirtbag yet?

And your wife is erratic, I assure you. She is just SNEAKY. Her emotions are driving the agenda here, which makes her erratic.

Axslinger,

Now would be a good time to gather testimonials about the OM from his various ex'es if possible. Just as we all know drugs are bad for us, your WW is also in denial about the true nature of OM.

Since it takes a minimum of 2 years to get over an affair, you are just at the start of the process. Normally the clock starts after the last contact or the last significant detail is confessed.

God Bless
Gamma

I have seen the carrot and stick used here for a long time, so I was simply applying the common lingo. I have never taken the Carrot and Stick literally, and that's why I asked Axe, "Have you been clear with her that you are not being vindictive and that you are just fighting for your marriage?"

There is a contrast in Plan A, which is the important point. Axe still has to expose and when the WW tries to gaslight, he has to use honest and direct language regarding the affair that does not allow his wife to manipulate him. So if you don't want to call that the stick...whatever. Plan A is Plan A.

And Axe understands this.

My thoughts are that she is still deep in the fog, and it takes time to get out of it. The good news is you are doing a great job of accelerating the affair's demise with your assertive action and your following Plan A. If you continue this, she will likely return to you and thank you for fighting for her after the fog lifts.

I think Dr. Harley would encourage you to remain in the marital home, as a place for her to return to.
If you left the home, she could see it as one more reason to remain separated.
Since this involves a lease, you can email him for his advice which would be a good practice: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Yup, stay in the home if you can. And make the home pleasant and inviting so that whenever she visits she has a good impression. When you are in Plan A, you are showing all things good to the WW. Small acts of love and kindness over time stack up and build a bridge back.

Staying in the home is symbolic, too. You are not giving up on this marriage. This is still your home; she is still your wife. Often the betrayed husband is the steady rock.

A Good Plan A clip.
Radio Clip on Plan A from Afar

Just an update on things since I got home.

WW texted as if she took some things and a few pieces of furniture, but she actually took pretty much everything she thought she had a right to. Furniture from all areas of the house, kitchenware, appliances, her clothes, etc. Nothing that I would have contested as "mine", but a lot that would be considered "ours", mostly in her areas of interest. She is definitely either living in her own place or moved in with OM. I found where she had been browsing rental listings as far back as July when I undeleted her web history on her computer, so I am leaning towards her having her own place.

Talked to her family. Apparently brother in law drove by the house and saw the move in progress, and went back and got their father to bring him to the scene. I guess he was pleading with WW not to do this, and she basically shut him down on it. Sounded like they were both very emotional, I'm sure her parents are a mess now. BIL was a bit disturbed because the help for moving was 2 or 3 people nobody knew, and WW acted completely detached emotionally when she wasn't having to deal with FIL. I can tell her demeanor kind of left him cold, which I'm glad he saw that. I've been dealing with that for 6 months now!

BIL said something to me about how none of us should talk about the affair being physical because that was "making her angry". Hoping the rest of her family isn't this naive at this point. He and I talked for a while and I think he clearly thinks her relationship with OM is wrong, but doesn't seem to understand her motivation and that she has no honesty at the moment.

Got a friend over and changed the locks myself last night. Going to make a copy for FIL since they're the landlords and inform them later today. I think this is within my rights and the only way I can stay in this house. Left a VM for WW letting her know they were changed as well, and that she could talk to me if she wanted access to move something out.

Going to continue Plan A, confront OM, and hope there's not a quick filing for D by WW. If there's not, I think I still have a chance. I'm just a bit overwhelmed every time I see WW get all crazy like this. I plan on replacing all of the furnishings she took with cheap/decent stuff from Craigslist so the house doesn't look vacant when/if she comes by, and so she doesn't see me as dependent.

The strangers helping are probably OM friends or possibly even his family members.
If she rents her own place, the PI should be able to tell you where she is because she will need to sign utility contracts.

Now that you have effectively exposed the affair make sure you are staying focused on your health, work, sleep etc

Good encouragement, I appreciate it. I feel better today.

Hoping to confront the guy this weekend. His business FB page has been kinda silent since the exposure, not sure what to make of that.

FIL called me today to tell me he was worried about a restraining order being taken out against me by OM if I went overboard. Not sure what to make of that, but I explained I was definitely confronting the guy. Already recruited at least 1 friend to go with and keep things from getting out of hand. I think I could confront him at his stand in a VERY public way, I've already got a conversation in mind that would very much expose his customers to who he is.

You could also have T-Shirts printed up with his picture and name on it with the word ADULTERY . and hand them out at the farmers market. people like free stuff

Just walking into a T-shirt shop and placing the order for this would be an impromptu addition to my bucket list, hahahaha.

I'd been considering tshirts, actually.

Also FIL told me WW had contacted him and asked to talk to him this weekend. Not sure if she's going to try and foglight them more on the issue or actually come clean.

Threats of restraining orders, libel, etc are scare tactics only, they are intended to get you to back off.

Restraining order for a man against a man will require a fairly substantial amount of evidence (different for every jurisdiction i realize).

From what you have told us, seems like nothing to worry.

The t-shirt thing would be awesome, or someone holding a picketing sign with "adulterer" and an arrow pointing at the stand.
Keep calm, the storm is just starting.
Get that VAR, have it with you always.

Have a VAR on you when you confront.

Yes. And if he gives details of the affair then post the recording as 'Proof" on Cheaterville

I would not make a big scene with signs, shirts, etc. I think that sort of thing will not be effective and will be deemed as small to those who could be in your corner. I would simply confront him, let him know he picked the wrong guy to tread on which he will regret, and let him know that you love your wife and will be fighting for Her. I''d put it in writing and cc your wife. Be clint eastwood when you see him. Economize your words so each has more impact and more intimidation.

Have you watched Clint Eastwood movies?
If not, you need to watch some Clint Eastwood and John Wayne movies and speak just like they do to this lowlife waffle man.

In the old days, you could legally challenge him to a duel and kill him.
Unfortunately, the pro-adultery lobby changed those laws so here are some things you can't do:

* Ask if he enjoys having kneecaps that aren't shattered.
* Ask if he would like to be involuntarily casterated.
* Shove his face into his hot waffle maker and give him a "Waffle Face" (like 2 face on Batman)

But you can politely tell him " I will destroy you if you dont end the affair today." and remember: Never make a threat you dont keep.

And if he tells you to get lost tell him as you walk away "We're going to the mattresses." and let him figure it out.

Jedi,
There's no school like the old school. ;-)

Not sure how being civil to the POSOM became vogue. It boggles the mind.

Guys,

Sorry to add more to a complex story but I just connected a few dots today that really disturb me. Things FIL has said to me over the last week.

(1) Apparently he and WW had a conversation about "our marriage" near the end of July, the details of which he refused to disclose to me (or even his own wife!) because he and WW have a confidentiality agreement of some sort that she can talk to him and it stays with him. All I know about this discussion is that he described it as negative when he mentioned it in a discussion with me and MIL.

(2) Talked to him and MIL last night about things. He seems to be passive-aggressive kind of upset about the exposure, as if it's unfair to WW and mentioning "I wouldn't have gone about it that way" when talking winning back WW. Haggled with me on the details because WW has provided him an alibi (without any evidence of it, of course) and so he doubts that WW has a PA with OM, only an EA. Thought I was harsh in exposing and that I jumped the gun. Also during prayer before we left made it a particular point to say he'd pray that she'd return to God rather than praying for a return to the marriage, because that was more important.

(3) Called me yesterday morning to warn me that WW or OM might take out restraining orders against me, mentioning that my behavior in tracking her vehicle and planning on confronting OM might strike them as threatening, as well as saying that "someone might be advising them to get a restraining order". Also mentioned that he's taken some out in the past and he knows they are easy to get, adding that he wouldn't want that to happen to me because it suggests guilt.



I'm feeling very paranoid about lots of things right now, but am I crazy to think I might be dealing with FIL enemy of the marriage? 3 was presented in such a tone that I didn't process it as a threat, but now I wonder and I need objective advice. My own family is angry enough that they can't do that.

There is an old saying that Blood is thicker than water.

I thought that my FIL would help when my wife was having an affair, but he came and bought her an affair phone and hired an attorney for her!

I would just keep FIL an arms length away.
He is correct that Restraining Orders can be easily issued..However, they are followed by a Hearing and if there isnt sufficient reason for the Order than they are revoked.

There is a way to tell if he supports your marriage: Ask him to call OM and tell him that his shadow will never enter the home of FIL. If FIL refuses to make the call, then he does not support your marriage.

I'd just like to suggest that any sort of "confidentiality agreement" between FIL and WW that keeps information vital to the health of your marriage from you is cause to treat FIL with extreme caution. Also, it should be clear that if it's God's will that marriages not end in divorce, the idea that it's more important for WW to return to God than to return to the marriage is an extremely false dichotomy. It sounds like he's beginning to swallow the idea that even if she returns to God, that might mean leaving the marriage, which begs the question what his opinion is of your relationship with God. I would pray for the Lord to attack this spirit of insidious deception that Satan will use against your marriage and every relationship attached to it. I'll be praying in that direction specifically after reading your update.

I would say you are being played by your FIL, either intentionally or unintentionally.

DITTO with what Jedi said, if he will not do that then you know where he stands

Restraining orders depend on the jurisdiction, and yes a hearing will quash it if it is all based on nonsense, the testimony and a good lawyer will rip it apart. Man on man restraining orders are unusual to say the least.
My exwife got a restraining order it lasted 10 days until the hearing, and the judge laughed at her and said this does come close to meeting the standard and dismissed it in 15min.

In other words threats of restraining orders are tactics used by the GUILTY.

I second what Hav said about his idea that 'coming back to God' is a priority above the marriage is bogus.

'Just' an EA is still a freaking A. They (PsIL) should be against that no matter what.

If I can add a bit to my post, I think that WW DOES need to return to God, but God exists in a trinitarian relationship with you and she now, which He calls marriage. Will keep praying, I think you're doing well bringing these things to light, as kaveman said, an EA is still an affair, and the hidden nature of this relationship with OM, the long-term stationary location of the car near his street, their past history, the recording of him calling her, the internet history, the dichotomy between what she's told you, her family, and your counselor and what she in fact has done, and the financial shell game all add up to someone who has methodically created another life, and it only stands to reason that her insistence that OM is not a significant and physical part of that other life, despite appearances, is merely a reaction to being caught out. It is not unreasonable to see that there is a PA going on here, it would be na�ve and unreasonable at this point to jettison the evidence that has been racking up and trust yourself to the character of someone who has proven herself dishonest and seared in her conscience. This situation and this relationship need a moral compass, and God has created you to be that to the best of your divinely-aided ability at this critical juncture in your marriage life. "Only be strong and very courageous, to observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded you. Don't turn from it to the right hand or to the left, that you may have good success wherever you go." Joshua 1.7

Thank you guys for the insight.

I got a text from FIL last night after his talk with WW that said the following:

- She is trying to contact people I exposed her to from church.

- He told her to be careful of her male relationships "for her own protection and because of appearance sake".

- He encouraged her "not to pursue divorce until things were right between you and her relationship with God was close".

- "There is hope! It's going to be hard on all of us, but there is hope!"


Now, to add some context, when I dropped off the new keys with them the other day, I told MIL/FIL frankly that I was concerned about WW filing for divorce quickly and that they had influence they could use to steer her into a long term separation as an alternative, as that gives me a chance to Plan A her. I'm sure they've already tried telling her to go back home, and my genuine feeling I got from them talking to them is that they feel she is lost. Both of them hugged and thanked me for not giving up her on her, so it would take an extraordinary amount of willful deception for FIL to be enabling her leaving behind the scenes. But, nothing surprises me at this point.

I texted FIL back and asked him (1)If he believes in his heart their relationship was just a friendship and (2)If he believes divorce is OK under the conditions he specified. He said that he doesn't believe the relationship was sexual but that it was inappropriate. He also didn't see how she could reconcile divorce and being spiritually "right", but that he didn't want to anger her by outright rejecting divorce and is doing this one step at time to get her back to church as he feels like God will show her this is wrong.

This is probably the most discouraged I've been this whole time. I don't want to feel betrayed by the family as well, but it's really eating at me. It makes the situation feel absolutely hopeless to me, and I fear for whatever future I would have going forward with them because the erosion of trust.

Church today will be good and I'm going to pray and talk to our pastor about things. I'll be curious to see if she manages to turn him as well. He's pretty street wise where I don't see it, but I don't know. I'm still going to defer to God on this, I just feel a little overwhelmed.

axe, ask your in MIL and FIL to do what I suggested earlier and see if they will.
If not, I would call him out on it.

And say what to him to call him out? I think he already doubts my credibility here, as well as my approach. I don't know what I'd say to him that would be helpful at this point.

To be honest, I feel like saying "I need your support. Most of the people I know are telling me to give up on her, and when you question my credibility I wonder if they are right. If you guys want to just fence sit instead of trying to help, I'm done here. I'm not putting myself through any more of this."

Also, didn't get a chance to talk to OM yesterday, but for everyone wanting me to do the tough guy approach....I don't make threats I won't honor. And if OM's IQ is above room temperature, I think he will understand that I'm bluffing if I go Clint Eastwood on him. I'd bet money this is not the first time he's hooked up with a married woman.

Now, if I beat him senseless, that's a different story, but that's not a good option either.

Sorry to be combative, I'm just at a bit of a loss right now.

axslinger, I would not bait your FIL. He is in a very difficult situation. Just ask him if he would be willing to support you by contacting the OM himself and asking him to hit the road. Don't start a fight with your FIL. If you see him siding with the affair, then that is time for you to politely back away.

Be careful when you confront the OM. Just ask him what his intentions are with your wife and let him know that you will be fighting for your marriage. Tell him there is no future for him with WW because he will not be welcomed into her family. Bring a BIG friend with you and leave your pistol in the car. You don't want to end up in a police car over making threats.

I wouldn't even have it in the car, because if ANYTHING goes sideways, a POS lawyer could try to use that as intent for several actions.

My boat's not the same, but my job requires me to be able to carry, and if I get in trouble, there goes my job, so that's why I'm so risk averse in this situation.

Church was good and I feel upbeat again. Pastor hasn't heard from WW but giving him the facts up to this point he sided strongly with my course of action which is super encouraging. I'm a little tired of being told I'm misguided, which is the prerogative of both families at this point.

Good advice, Melody, that is appreciated.

My read on MIL/FIL is to leave them alone for a while, for their sanity and mine. It's just way to easy for the gears to get turning in my head on what they are thinking/doing behind the scenes and that's very destructive for me right now. I think it's the same for them, they are by nature very non-confrontational and I don't think they understand me right now.

Going to keep up with Plan A for WW, and wait to see if I get served in the next week or so. Got a friend ready for backup while confronting OM at his stand next time it opens. Other than that I'm ready to start focusing on self-improvement, as Jedi suggested. Lots of things to work on. WW can stumble through her jilted fog for the time being.

This whole situation makes my head spin if I worry about too many of the things I can't control so I'm going to focus on what I can.

Axe,
Here's the thing. You are a very action oriented person, and that puts you ahead of most of the betrayed spouses who come here. But once you have completed exposure, the waiting starts, and that's hard for someone like you. It's going to take time, brother. You can't control your wife or your in-laws. All you can control are your own actions.

Now that exposure is complete, the next step is to confront the POSOM. After that, you have to present a caring front to your wife and do things to let her know that you love her and that you want her to return.

You can't expect your in-laws to go all in with your plans. If they do, great, but don't press hard. They are in the middle, and you must tread lightly accepting their support but not asking for too much. When I exposed my wife's affair, I asked my in-laws for their support, and they gave it to me, but I did not count on them as allies in the battle. There is a difference. But my wife knew her actions were held in low regard, and that made the consequences of her choice very painful, which was a factor in her decision to end her affair. I asked very little of my in-laws other then one time asking them to use their influence to persuade my wife to end her affair.

Confront, and then begin to work on ways to show your wife that you are the better alternative. There are going to be many days where you get frustrated not being able to do anything, but just throw your pebbles in the deep river and gradually, slowly make that bridge that she can cross. It's a long process.

You will have to endure plenty of fog babble, so be calm. Channel your zen.

Axe,
I was not suggesting that you come out guns blazing when I referenced Eastwood. I was alluding to his temperament and economy of words. This POSOM is the enemy of your marriage, and I don't personally like the soft and empathetic approach that so many take these days. You can be manly without being a barbarian, right? And you can use intimidation without carrying out a direct threat you are not willing to carry out, can't you?

Thank you guys again for very sound advice, you are invaluable. I shudder to think what I would be thinking or doing without the calm and straightforward advice here. I'd probably be unaware of the affair and caught between two very emotional families. MB is truly a Godsend.

Quick Question:

WW has a couple obligations she seems to be dodging.

1 is a joint business loan she took out with a friend to help fund her business that failed. Her friend split somewhat acrimoniously from her, but the loan was against her friend's house as collateral, so they were kind of stuck together on it. They had worked out something where the friend made a couple lump sum payments to cover her "part" of the loan, and WW was going to pay the rest down over time.

Well, got a notice over the weekend that she's 8 days past due on her payment. If it goes unpaid I'm worried they'll go after her friend's house.

Also there's a ticket she got while we were in counseling that I think is unpaid which will result in a warrant if it's not paid by the end of the month.

Should I shield her from these consequences or let them fall on her? I've notified her about both but no response. It's very out of character for her to dodge stuff like this, she's usually more alert than I am.

You already have done what you could do and anything further would be enabling her irresponsible behavior.

Her friend made a business venture with your WW and She should deal with your WW to attempt to reconcile the late payment status. If you intercede, then you are assuming her part of the responsibility for her.

LTL

Focus on wht You can do.

Have you determined when you will confront theeOM?

LTL

Place the letter on the kitchen counter.

She's not in the house to see it the kitchen counter, or was it for another reason to leave it on the counter?

Yeah Jedi, she's gone.

OM chit chat will happen Saturday morning.

I know she's not in the house.
One natural consequence of leaving the marital home and shacking up with a lover is that your mail may not reach you.
As a husband, I think you are obligated to leave it on the kitchen counter. If she's not there then that's her problem.

That's pretty reasonable. Hadn't thought of it that way.

Another idea I wanted to run by...I had mentioned an aunt/uncle earlier that WW has been very close to over the last 6 months, they're out of state but she calls and Facebooks them much more than her immediate family right now. In fact they post and like things on OM's Facebook page too, so they know/know about OM.

I had thought early on these people might be allies, but before exposure FIL mentioned that their marriage is affairage. He didn't want us to contact them at all because he thought it would encourage them to push harder.

I've been thinking of calling these people and just having a frank discussion with them. Not threatening, just explaining that I care deeply about WW and am willing to work very hard on our marriage.

Waste of time? I've wondered if it might change their counsel to WW if they understood I'm not just a faceless antagonist here.

If they are in an affair age, that would be like them condemning their own lifestyle. You can certainly call them and tell them that WW is in an A with OM and you would appreciate them being friends to your marriage and encouraging her to end her A. But, I would not get my hopes up if I were you, and would expect them to do just the opposite.

Obviously they are encouraging this so far, and your WW has sniffed out her allies. If they continue to support her after you have stated your case, I would cut off contact with them.

I wouldn't necessarily ask them to condemn the affair as much as to hear me out and try to be impartial. These people have never met me or the rest of her immediate family, they live 1000 miles away and only met WW through Facebook.

Affairages are such strange creatures to me because the participants obviously believe there is some value to marriage or else they wouldn't have remarried, but that it has different boundaries than the rest of us. My experience with most of these people is that they find certain "justifications" for an affair (e.g. a loveless or abusive marriage), even if they see a marriage in other areas the same way we do.

I would imagine WW has painted me as a very scary person to them and I kind of wonder what effect it would have on them that I was bold enough to call them and rather than being combative or petty, just present my care and desire to make things right with WW. I'm thinking it -MIGHT- throw them off a bit because I'd imagine they have a certain caricature of me in their mind right now.

But I could also see where they are slimy people who would laugh me off or hang up. I almost want to do it just to know I confronted them in the midst of this rather than letting them turn my wife against me without having to actually hear my voice or prerogative. I know who they are, I know their phone #, and I know what they're doing, and I think leaving them alone might turn into a regret down the road, even knowing it might be ineffective. I want them to hear me regardless of what they think about it.

The reason your WW has gone them to them is because she probably has a "new understanding" about their marriage. She is probably seeing things from their point of view. This is the warped thinking of a wayward spouse.


And as far as this affairage couple goes, as long as they are married and stay in adultery they will never see things for what they are. They are in a perpetual fog.

I would ignore them and consider them enemies of your marriage. I would not trust them.

Axslinger, I like your idea about calling them, however, I seriously doubt that someone in an affairage would be "impartial." First off, they have wayward minds and will view it from that perspective. And if they were decent people, they certainly wouldn't be "impartial" about adultery. Decent people are outraged at injustice.

Even so, I would call and discuss it with them. Just don't expect much.

I've wondered if people in affairages are in an ongoing, never ending fog.
That's a good question for Dr. Harley.
What a terrible way to live!

Just an update on WW. PI is still in the picture at this point (he's working on court-admissible stuff if it goes that route) and has had some interesting info. The plot thickens.

WW seems to be living in a house with several young adults, but OM hasn't been spotted there. PI is working on IDing occupants. Says she's consistently staying here, but spends a lot of time in her vehicle on the phone. An address for OM that appears on Spokeo is 2 blocks away but the car hasn't been parked there at all.

Skip tracing (locating) OM has been difficult, actually. Apparently he shows up in public databases in several locations in this area but doesn't show up anywhere as a property owner which makes him harder to track down. Kind of wonder if he's staying with a relative. Probably going to have PI watch him at the farmer's market this weekend and go from there.

PI put a GPS with a strong battery on WW's car over the weekend and has been making notes. Apparently today she went to a house that OM is associated with in some databases, but actually belongs to a relative of his. About 40 miles away. Was there for a few hours, and then came back. Also was at the local courthouse for traffic tickets and minor offenses for a few hours today. I'm puzzled by that, as it's not the right courthouse for filing D paperwork. Thinking WW may have gotten a ticket, her plates have been expired for a few months.

Apparently on days WW works she's either at work or at this house with the other young adults. Today and tomorrow she's off, so I'm hoping this will yield more interesting info on her current routine. Very interesting she drove so far to see OM/OM's relatives with her plates expired, she's already got at least 2 tickets for this from what I have noticed.

If PI can get some photos or other undeniable evidence of a relationship, I will probably present that to WW's family to see if they will get off the fence about the nature of this relationship with OM and apply more pressure.

Interested to see how long WW will keep up this routine as well. She's working two jobs with long hours, and has essentially destroyed any ability to pursue her long-stated career or education goals because she's always working. She might be planning on saving up money to change that, however, hard to say. Some of what I found in her web history was looking at colleges out of state. It's all very confusing, and part of me wonders if she's trying to really bolt (e.g. get out of state).

I'm certain about the nature of her relationship with OM because of the voicemails I've found and too many other coincidences. Even her family, though they are in denial about a PA, understands there's some sort of inappropriate relationship with OM because she's talked enough to them about OM before this all started that they consider it now a red flag.

Still no contact with WW, she won't even answer her phone. I've been leaving voicemails to Plan A her, saying I love her and praying over her. She is listening to at least some of them because she's responded to 1 of them by text. I had offered to bring her something related to her hotel job that she'd left at the house and she said "don't bring it, I've already replaced it".

Hard for me to discern how much to get close to her with the amount of isolation she's put herself in. I'd like to start leaving notes and such on/in her car, but not sure if that's a good idea or if I should wait for her to cool off a bit.

Everything since I started becoming suspicious of the A has caused her to become more unwilling to talk, fairly proportionate to the amount of exposure she/OM has received. During the 5 weeks of counseling when she was still here (and I was basically doing Plan A without knowing what it was), I got the vibe that she would have stuck around if I hadn't started snooping on the A. By the end she was being a lot more willing to chat or text with me (lying, but still communicating).

Not regretting uncovering/exposing the A (I'm happier knowing the truth), just kind of painting the picture of her behavior up to this point.

I am not Dr Harley, but I believe they retain a wayward mind for the duration.

Axe,
Place the address where she is staying in the County Tax Assessor website and find out who owns it.
Then you can find out who the occupants are

I wouldn't post notes on her car.

^True. Haven't got it from the PI yet but I'd bet that it's the same place she'd been parking when I was using the cell tracker. If they're renting it might not tell me much.

Very interested to see how she negotiates the holidays. Thanksgiving/Christmas are big events to her family where she was very involved in preparation. If she attends, I can't imagine she won't be pressured about the situation and right now she won't really talk to them. If she doesn't attend, I don't know what to expect. I don't plan on attending their holidays without her, I feel it would be too awkward.

I think this is common.
My (ex) wife was having an affair and after I discovered it, wanted to have an "open Marriage."
There are "other" forums and plans out there and many of their members have "open marriages" and try to win their wives back after they get tired of their affair. Waywards love these types of plans!

An address will tell you a lot.
This is what you do:
Get the address from PI.
Check address with County Assessor, get owner info.
Then go to the local Police Dept Records Division and file a public records request for any fire/ police calls to that residence over the past year. That may give you more names.
Do a Google search of the names. Search the names in the local court records online.
You'll pick up the trail

I think the address may be a room that OM rents.
The young adults may be the ones that your FIL witnessed moving her stuff out of the marital home.
Based on the low level of child support that OM pays, I suspect he is probably a room renter.

Being in the dark like this is hard because I have no indication of the state of things in the affair. I think exposure caused some friction but I do not believe it has ended. Hopefully confrontation with OM this weekend will put pressure on things.

PI says GPS has malfunctioned or been disabled. This situation just keeps getting stranger.

Out of curiosity, did a search on the state courts site for WW. Figured if she filed for D yesterday, it might appear. Didn't find a D filing, but I found something else interesting.

Apparently she pled not guilty to her traffic ticket in late August, and what's really interesting is that she's got a PO Box registered as her address here.

The ticket is from another county, so it's not why she was at court yesterday, but the PO BOX is just another hint of an escape plan being hatched here. She's apparently been redirecting her mail since late August.

I bet the affairage aunt/uncle helped her get this all planned out in advance. I wonder how she's sleeping these days...

It may be OM PO box.
Remember, keep focusing on being the Lighthouse in the Stormy Sea that she can return to

Yeah. I've been thinking of waiting till Nov 1 to see if I get served, and if not then refurnishing the house (it looks practically vacant right now) and just buttoning down the hatches and focusing on myself and Plan A. I feel like any day now I'm going to get served and that keeps me in limbo.

How long does it normally take to get served from the time of filing?

Service time varies by locality

PI just called with an update. He has a contact in PD that says in laws told her I was aware of her location and so she had a mechanic locate and remove the GPS, and she returned it to the PD. PD contact also said she had mentioned to them that she is trying to divorce me.

Is this pretty standard fare for post-exposure where the spouse is out of the house? I can't imagine it isn't.

Not sure of what to think. PI feels like he came up empty handed and is frustrated I exposed the A to the in laws before he was finished. While I'm happy I'm exposed I can also see where it will feed her narrative of me being controlling or unfair. I feel like I can't trust the in laws, also.

The waters are so murky at this point.

Blood is always thicker than water. I wouldn't share anymore plans with in-laws or data yet.
Use them only as a means for communicating your desire to save the marriage.

A PO Box is standard fare for a wayward, somewhere there must be a book telling these waywards what to do. New credit cards or loans are another thing to be wary of, since you have not been served(those would be considered joint)

Trying to understand what a wayward is thinking or feeling is pointless, but rest assured it totally SELFISH.
She has absolutely no concern for you in any fashion in her current state of mind.

It is hard work, but pressure on the affair and Plan A the best you can is all you can do.
Take care of yourself, you are being ran through the ringer.

Guys, I'll be honest. I'm seriously considering putting an ultimatum to her parents tonight about support in this situation and telling them (1)the affair is real, I will subpoena phone records and everyone will know anyways and (2)I will file for infidelity tomorrow if I do not get their support and they continue to betray my confidence.

I feel very betrayed by her family and it makes it impossible for me to see a productive relationship with them beyond this. Talk me down from the ledge here, unless I'm right.

As NebDane pointed out, the waywards families often side with the wayward.
During my wifes affair, my FIL actually bought her an affair phone, paid for an attorney and encouraged her to leave!
This was after he told me that he supported out marriage and hated OM!

How could I possibly rebuild that relationship (me and her family) at this point? It just feels hopelessly broken and given the current dynamic I cannot see an outcome other than D.

Anyone have any experience actually recovering a situation where the wayward's family was unsupportive or enabling the affair?

Not in my case, but there are several posters here whose threads I have read that dealt with similar family issues

My in-laws were unsupportive. My SIL even called me a liar on social media. They disappointed me greatly. But they were also 1200 miles away. So they saw nothing and did nothing. They have apologized somewhat and our relationship has been restored, but it will never be the same. They really let me down and I will never forget that.

Unfortunately, Yes. I decided to put the family issues on a shelf for time while I focused on my recovery. Trying to tackle that issue early on in recovery was too much for me to handle.

SIL was an enabler. MIL and FIL did not come to my aid when asked too. Much hurt has occurred on both sides. SIL is cut from our lives forever. Working to mend relationship with FIL and MIL.

Early on, the primary focus has to be on the recovery of the couple. Not on the IL's or the rest of the family.

Good advice, and I've cooled off a bit about things, though I definitely am going to have to distance myself from the ILs for the duration of this.

FIL texted me saying he had tipped off WW about GPS and saying it was hurtful and thoughtless for me to have had it installed. Lectured me about violating her privacy and quoted the Bible to explain that I hadn't done unto others had I would have them do unto me.

I calmly responded that I don't believe in privacy within a marriage and that WW was welcome to install a GPS on my car anytime because she has every right to know where I am at all times. Also said that I felt privacy between spouses was not conducive towards honesty between spouses and mentioned policy of radical honesty. Didn't beat him over the head with it but plainly stated that we disagree on the topic.

When/if recovery happens, there's going to be a lot to deconstruct regarding the concept of honesty. I noticed when the ILs talk to WW about this situation, they prefer to tell her half truths that they think will steer her towards the right thing rather than just telling her the right thing (e.g. "don't divorce until you are right with God" rather than "divorce is morally wrong under these circumstances"). When WW and I were talking to MC before she left, that was a topic he noticed and called her out on, because she had revealed that she had been doing the same thing to me because she was scared of confrontation or thought the truth would hurt me.

Not giving up yet, but there's a lot to deconstruct I guess. Seriously considering moving out of the marital home since it is rented from the ILs because at this juncture I think I need to distance myself from them.

Thoughts?

Early on in recovery, we had to learn to build a protective cocoon around our marriage. There is so much to work on to assure no contact, to eliminate love busters, and then to learn how to meet emotional needs. POJA and the PORH. THAT is what needs to be focused on once you agree to recover together.

You don't need to worry about what will come down the road with inlaws or friends.

My H now has great distaste for those who threw me under the bus back then. And yes, we had a lot of repairing to do with a couple of people, and some are kept at arms length by us now, but at this point it is OUR (POJA) decision.

We are actually relieved to know who truly does (and who doesn't!) support the marriage contract.

Your in-laws are not being friends of the marriage despite their "preachiness" and getting right with God.

The ol' respect my privacy line, is fog babble chapter and verse. That line is used by every wayward who wants to keep the affair going.

Stay away from the in-laws for now, no help there only frustration.

I would not move out of the marital home.
If this is something you are seriously considering you should email Dr. Harley first because I think he would tell you to remain in the home.

I'm not comfortable staying there with FIL floating restraining order threats at me. If he was able to obtain one ex parte I could be forcibly evicted or arrested for staying. If I was not renting one of his houses this would be a different story.

Axslinger,

FIL is not going to get a restraining order against you.
You are taking this too far.
If you leave the house, you will be putting a nail in your marriage coffin

^ It's not in the realm of impossibility, but the FIL could be pushing for that.

Just dont sling your axe at the FIL

This should be a lesson about disclosing your means to information. Like the PI and gps.

How do you avoid it? People want proof, and a way to know the proof is legitimate. Everyone I talked to questioned the credibility of my data until I revealed a source.

Now if you've got a photo or video, that's different.

Stop talking to the in-laws. Unfortunately parents of waywards are gaslit and sometimes go along with it because they don't want their child to be the bad guy.

It's good to get people's support and if they can talk to the wayward and tell them they disapprove, etc, great. But there can be a point where you are trying to over-involve people. If they can help you, great. If not, bye-bye for now.

You have to save your emotional energy and can't be squandering it on these people.

This describes things perfectly in my situation.

No longer speculation. Sheriff's office just called me wanting to deliver a notice of a denied ex parte restraining order. Apparently was filed last Wednesday.

ha ha ha.
DENIED!!!
It will be interesting to see what the charging party said you did to warrant a restraining order

Moved out Friday. If an ex parte restraining order was obtained somehow, since I am living in FIL's house (and BIL also rents part of the house, something I haven't mentioned), I could be arrested for simply coming home (without any warning) if the scope included immediate family.

Yes, it's an extreme possibility, but like changing the locks, something I feel I had to do to protect my own interests/assets. Not sure yet how involved WW's family was in the RO, but I feel like I can't trust them right now and need to distance from them.

Talked to MIL/FIL Saturday about having moved out and I think hitting them in the pocketbook on this has actually been productive. They seem to be taking this more seriously than before and actually asked me if we'd move back in when/if WW and I got things worked out. Wow, guess they hadn't considered the $$$ aspect of this before? They also apologized about being protective with the GPS and telling WW about it, said I put them in a terrible position when I exposed the A to them. I assured them that I wasn't giving up on her and they seemed encouraged by that but apologetic overall about their role in things and WW's behavior. Told me that they loved me which is difficult to process at this point. Also seemed to take a much stronger position on the WW/OM relationship being morally wrong, which is encouraging.

WW stayed overnight with them Saturday night and they texted me details of their conversation with her. They say the stuff she took has gone into storage, that she changed her telephone # and doesn't want me to have the new one, but that her old phone is still active (?). Also said they hope she will talk to me in person soon. At this point it's been 3 weeks since I've seen her.

Also got a call from the local PD as apparently WW had filed a complaint about the tracking devices, but the PD seems to agree I'm within my rights to have done what I did. They just seemed to just be filling out paperwork.

My backup for talking to OM had to bail Saturday so I didn't go but we're on for next Saturday. I hate that's it's getting drug out past the exposure this far, but I would regret not doing it no matter how this ends up. Got a VAR Saturday anyways and am otherwise ready to go.

I'm going to guess it's related to the tracking devices. In my state they will grant an RO if they feel you are "stalking" someone, though an ex parte RO requires evidence of imminent "irreparable harm" to the protected party from the restrained party, so it was still a stupid idea given the facts of the situation.

Well, the GPS was placed by a licensed private investigator so I think you have a defense against any stalking charges.
The investigator is bound by state rules and so there is a protection afforded to the person he is following.

I also placed a cell phone in the vehicle myself to track it the first week, and I did tell the PD this as they asked about it. I would still imagine I am within my rights, and the detective seemed to agree.

axe,

If the police department asks you questions tell them you don't want to discuss anything without the presence of your attorney

Am I crazy to think that the desperateness of WW's actions here indicates that the exposure has seriously damaged her exit strategy and the A? The more of this I see, the more I come to that conclusion. It seems like they are really scrambling to put fires out over in camp A.

Exposure speeds everything up.
It speeds up the natural death of the affair.
If I was OM, I would not like getting phone calls from relatives about my adultery!
That must place tremendous stress on the affair and he is probably wondering if your wife is worth all the grief and baggage she brings along.

I just wanted to follow up and run some thoughts/ideas by you guys. Some facts regarding the situation at this point:

WW:
- Hasn't seen me in a month.
- Won't take my calls, or respond to texts/voicemails with very rare exceptions.
- Won't talk to her family other than once every 2 weeks.
- Staying at a house with several young adults (not sure yet if OM is there). PI has tracked her to OM's relatives houses on her days off via GPS.
- Filed a restraining order and police report against me about GPS on her car but both were turned down.
- Moved her stuff out (and into storage according to her parents) 2 weeks ago.
- Has never actually said the word "divorce" to me in all of this, only asked for a "separation". During last day of counseling MC asked if this meant temporary or permanent and she said permanent.

Exposure:
I've done everything I mentioned except confronting OM (happening this weekend, got some friends to help keep it civil and VAR).

FIL/MIL want me to go confront her at her car after work and try to get her to talk to me. I think this is a bad idea. I'm nearly certain FIL advised her to file for the restraining order so I also do not trust him anymore.

WW has a fierce independent streak like I do and so I'm perplexed a bit about how to properly Plan A her right now. I'm concerned that continually trying to contact her will push her away, and in general I'm not sure what I can do when she refuses to speak to me. I feel like I sort of have to let her crash and burn in her new little world before she will have any desire to work on the marriage. The 5 weeks of counseling before she left (as I began to uncover the A) I was unconsciously doing Plan A, with no LBs and making every love bank deposit I could manage. She went from being unhappy to friendly with me, but was adamant about not being in love with me. She seemed genuinely undecided on our future as she would sort of flash between saying/doing things suggesting she would stay and expressing doubts about staying.

I was rereading some of our old emails from when we were dating/engaged and realized that (1) she had what I now realize is an EA during our dating which caused me to quit the relationship for few weeks until she broke it off and came back and (2) OS relationship boundaries have been a lurking issue for us since day one. These haven't been recurring events throughout the marriage, but it's a little like deja vu here so that's kind of scary.

Do I just wait out the A at this point? Is there anything I should be doing here that I'm not? I can do the waiting, I just don't want to squander opportunities.

Axe,

So after you have confronted the OM, you can do things to Plan A her. Send her texts letting her know that you hope she is doing ok and that you are worried about her. Mention once in awhile that you miss her. Keep the home clean, warm, and inviting so that when she comes in she will think of the good things. Though you are not in a lot of contact with her, make the moments she does come into contact as pleasing and pleasant as possible.

Don't crowd her, but be consistent is showing that you care. Write her love a love letter every now and then.

Over the 14 months that my wayward wife and I were separated, I would find opportunities now and then to show her that I still cared even though I was also very angry and full of resentment. I sucked it up and made the Plan A effort. I wrote her a love letter, which to my surprise I learned after she moved back home she kept. I texted her links to songs. I brought her soup when she was sick. Little things spread out. I did not think these little actions worked as she never said anything about them. I thought they meant nothing to a hardened heart. But I learned after she hit rock bottom that they kept me in the game, and they eventually made reconciliation possible.

Have you ever emailed Dr Harley?

He moved out of the marital home.

Take this time to work on your own betterment (whatever you have not done in the past......) and be kind to her if/when you do have any contact with her. Be your best self despite her actions or lack of them.

That is about the best you can do Plan A-ing with someone who is attempting to have no contact with you.

Not yet. I will probably do that tonight or tomorrow. I've been thinking of doing a call as well.

FIL texted me asking if he could give my number to a friend of the family who is apparently concerned about me and wants to speak to me. I know the friend fairly well as he comes to family events with the inlaws regularly. He is a close friend of FIL.

He just called me and wanted to schedule a time to talk to me, so I agreed to meet him on Sunday afternoon and talk. It was an awkward, brief conversation getting it scheduled and he sounded very upset.

Not sure what to expect at all of this conversation. Going to pray for humility and openness in it as I'm really starting to chafe at the mixed signals I'm getting from the in laws and I don't want to say something careless or destructive to this guy.

Yes, but I do plan on trying to make wherever I settle the most attractive that I can. If the consequences of an RO weren't as severe in my situation I would have stayed.

Be very wary of this meeting!!!!!

I don't see much good coming out of it, and it is full of pitfalls and risk. The inlaws have shown that they are not on your side by their actions, and this is just another one of them.

If the blame game starts, end it politely and leave.

What do others say?

I predict the theme of the meeting will be:
You are hurt, she is hurt and it's time to be nice and stop throwing mud at each other and either agree to counseling or divorce.

You may say, "She's having an affair."

To which he will reply, "Well, FIL said that you spread rumors about her all over town (expoosure) and she is hurt and shamd (blaming you).

I could be wrong, but based on FIL actions that's what I think

This is also my hunch, unfortunately. However, there is no wind in the sails of this potential argument. It's not exactly like she is willing to work on reconciling and all of the concessions in the world from me are not going to change this. She moved out before the exposure even happened.

If her family's goal really is counseling and not steering towards divorce, is there any benefit to saying "sure, I'll agree to counseling provided WW moves back in and we both are transparent to a 3rd party about phones, passwords, etc"? I could simply steer us towards MB as counseling.

I doubt she would accept this offer but just thinking out loud.

I would just tell them "I am willing to work with your daughter to create a loving romantic marriage but she must first end her affair"

Ax,

I agree! I would call this person and decline the meeting. You don't need another third party in your M now advising you no matter how well-intentioned he may be, especially if he is in in the in-laws camp. You have a very good advisory source in MN

Tom.

I trust the advice here but I do want to try to understand it more about the meeting.

I think if I call this off it will spook the inlaws. I'm not sure what this guy can say to or ask me that I should be afraid of. I am armed with the truth and I think what Jedi recommended as a response is simple enough.

What pitfalls do you guys see if I don't call this off? Also, about to go confront OM.

The only pitfalls is a waste of time

The biggest reason I see is that there is no reason TO go.

You don't need another supporter of your WW working to influence you to be the nice guy and submit to her affair like a coward. You don't need to hear negativity about your valiant effort to fight for your marriage.

Since you can assume this is the purpose of the meeting, to try to persuade you to do things differently than you have been, and not to applaud you for your efforts, why subject yourself to this.

You are fighting like a champ ax, but this is a very emotional and vulnerable time for you. Many of us know because we have been there. You do not need to surround yourself with people who are working against your efforts, but rather keep them at arms reach.

Axe,

Obviously, this man will present to you a different agenda, but I think you are okay to meet with him as long as in your meeting you stay grounded in the principles and framework that Dr. Harley has in place to save marriages and make them better than ever. That is your end game and nothing should take you off course. Dr. Harley knows how to save marriages. He's saved tens of thousands of them, and the man you are going to meet cannot compare to that, nor can any of the other in-laws.

So when you meet with him, suspend all disrespectful judgments if he challenges you, but do share with him that right now your marriage is under assault, and you have armed yourself with the very best, time proven tools to combat the forces that are assailing it. I would ask him respectfully to pray for your marriage and to be a ally in fighting for it. You have consulted with the a nationally recognized marriage therapist who has unparalleled success and who has saved marriages that most people would consider totally hopeless. Many a marriage has risen from the ashes thanks to Dr. Harley. I would also stress that Dr. Harley has a Christian background.

I would keep the meeting short and sweet. You might print out materials from this site and share with him. I would print out the articles on this page: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html. Include in your print outs all the links on the page, especially the "How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages" one.

If you end the meeting on a different page, that's okay. Listen to what he has to say, and at the end of the meeting, ask him to read the print outs so that he will have a better understanding of why you are doing what you are doing. If he won't agree, that's his prerogative, but you have do what is best for your marriage.

Looking forward to hearing what happens with the other man. I think you should confronted him a long time ago, but I'm glad you're finally taking care of this. Good luck today. Go Eastwood, and by that I don't mean engage him in a fight. Rather, I mean take a cool, laconic, tough, all-business approach to the conversation. Make him shake in his boots without becoming violent.

I would not go. And I would Plan B your in-laws.

You need to save your emotional energy - not let it get drained trying to convince people that you are not the one with a problem.

I would not go.

If you go (please don't. trying to appease the inlaws is not where your energy needs to be right now) DON'T share Marriage Builders info. You don't want to hand your wife your strategy.

You shouldn't be in a position of defending your approach. Her family is being gaslit by her...heavily. They are buying her crap about being unhappy for years and blah blah blah. Sounds like you're about to walk into some lecture about letting God take care of it or something.

I know you're a fighter but you might want to consider what it would be like to move forward without her. You don't have the 'glue' of kids and recovery is very challenging. You have every right to move on and get out of this marriage.

Just something to consider.

Update on this. Got together with a few friends and a VAR but couldn't find OM today, his stand was nowhere to be found at either of the local farmer's markets. Curiously nothing on his business Facebook about today's market either. Since this guy doesn't work a regular job my other options are tracking him down at his/a family member's residence and I feel that is unwise. I drove by WW's work and she wasn't working (unusual unless she's changed her work schedule) so I assume they were somewhere together today. Kind of a letdown, I was ready to go. But this guy will hear from me and I'll try again next week. At this point even if WW files, I would regret not confronting OM, I am certain of that.

As for the meeting...there's more to this guy's relation to her family that I don't want to get into, but which makes his position less certain than it would appear. I'm genuinely interested in what his take is. I do confrontation a lot in my line of work so it's not something that bothers me. I don't intend on getting into MB principles too much as overall I intend to stick with brevity. The more the words the less the meaning.

This course of action is on my mind daily, to be honest, and most of my own family is urging me to do this, so it's hard to get away from thinking about it right now.

Since WW refuses to have any contact with me it's actually been pretty easy to emotionally compartmentalize this for whatever reason. Thinking about seeing or talking to her is a pretty big trigger and I think if she started resuming contact with me it would rewind me 2 or 3 weeks to when I was in the midst of depression about the A (and being abandoned). I'm not "over" it by any means now, it's just not a constant grind of clinical depression (anxiety, nausea, insomnia, etc). I just have moments at this point where I get some or a few of those things, and less frequently with each week. It is hard to anticipate what will trigger it (sometimes an old song we liked on the radio, sometimes just being around family and feeling odd to not have her with me, sometimes driving by an old dating spot). But it's getting easier.

I have no idea what will happen but my honest prediction is that she will not file (I think she expects me to now that I'm aware of the A), I will get into a different house in the next week or so, move forward with most of my life practically assuming she's not coming back (since I cannot control what she chooses to do), and wind down the rest of my 6 months of distant Plan A. That doesn't really bother me to think about, and I just look at R as being a matter of how she comes back, if she comes back. If I can't get agreement on EPs and honest effort into the MB program, I'm not going to consider R. I'm going to consider Plan B/D. And if I get nothing after 6 months, I'll probably consider Plan D unless I feel led to do otherwise. The course WW has put herself on will lead to burnout, I just don't know how quickly and if I'll still be open to her by the time she gets there.

I'm pretty much at peace with that at this point. I've got a lot things I can work on that will be good disciplines (e.g. getting back into weightlifting) and will make me a more attractive partner, and I'm ready to get focus on that. Lots of areas I can grow/mature/improve in that are good for me regardless of what WW decides to do. Also grateful for having found MB because I see a lot of things in Dr. Harley's stuff that can make me a better husband. Wish I would have found this 6 years ago.

I wouldn't go, ask yourself this - what is to be gained? Nothing!

So as Jedi said, it is a waste of time. As others have said, more emotional draining confusion.

Axe, when I went through the Jedi Training Academy one of my instructors kept telling us to not waste our time.

WW apparently deactivated her old phone so there goes that line of communication.

Good. That way the OM must meet all of her emotional needs and they will experience conflict sooner (since she cant blame you for her problems now)

Meeting went well, I think I found an ally. Details are things I can't mention but the friend of FIL has experience with similar circumstances. There was a bit of jousting about exposure but after I explained the scope (close family/friends) there weren't many objections. His recommendation was basically Plan A, and he was there to encourage to me not give up and that while he disagrees with FIL/MILs handling of WW, he has discussed the topic enough with them to know their desire for the situation is R, not D. Wouldn't be surprised if he leans on them a bit after talking to me and discovering I'm not on the warpath to ruin WW's reputation. Very supportive, overall.

Also met with SIL's husband at a different time/location. He and I are friends and he had reached out to me via Facebook wanting to see how I was holding up. Very much the same sort of conversation. He told me that last week MIL told WW point blank she needs to end the relationship with OM regardless of what she claims it is, and that WW agreed to do this. He acknowledged that WW may not have done this, but wanted me to know they were pressuring her. He's had a friend in his church that's overcome a very similar situation with an A and wanted to encourage me not to give up, and basically suggested Plan A.

This all probably sounds counter-intuitive to my statements earlier about keeping in-laws at a distance but I had a hunch after I got both of these invites that I should follow up and I feel very encouraged. I'm wondering if news about the restraining order had alarmed people on that side of the family about how it would affect my disposition. Lots of good spiritual discussion as well, which is important to my resolve. People with realistic takes on the situation and how to proceed, not people who are terribly fog lit. I'm still avoiding FIL where possible, however.

Sounds like it went well, although what was truly gained by you? You also gave them info that they can share with WW.

You need to be very careful with these people. They have already shown to be at the least passively supporting your waywards actions.

It is good if they are truly allies, but subterfuge is also a very real possibility. What if one of them picks a fight just to get you arrested? It has happened before!!!

I'm glad you met with them. They are your family still.

And you've showed that you have a healthy skepticism and a strong commitment to following the MB plan. That's why I was not against you meeting with him.

What Plan A activities do you have in mind?

There's not really anything we discussed that WW doesn't already know. There wasn't any grand strategy unveiled as much as them providing examples of how I could demonstrate affection or openness at this point, and me filling in some blanks on making those examples specific to our situation.

If the point of exposure is partially for the BS to gain support from the family, this was it. My family has been very supportive of me, but very tepid on the viability of the marriage. FIL and some of her siblings have been the same way except with her.

These people showed up to tell me they were in support of the marriage and not one or the other of us, and that helps me tremendously to feel like there's people close to me who are rooting for us to survive this rather than looking at the marriage as damaged goods. Feeling like you're the only one who can conceive of recovery gets lonely pretty quick. After the restraining order I began to wonder if I'd made a lot of enemies on that side of the family because of exposure, and this helps to dispel that notion.

I do think there are some individuals I cannot trust right now, but the overall climate is still that people want to see the marriage survive.

Well....I still do have WW on Facebook. She hasn't changed anything about us on Facebook, still listed as my wife with her married last name, etc. She doesn't really post anything though she does get on every few days and has PM'd some people in her family from what they tell me. I kind of wonder if she uses it to try and keep tabs on what I'm doing/saying. I know all of this could change in an instant, but that's the way it is currently.

I'm going to send her FB private messages to do Plan A, and I'm going to ask for her new cell # today. Worst she can say is no.

I've also thought of having flowers sent to her work with notes.

SIL's husband suggested sending notes or letters through her parents until I get her new address. He thinks MIL would relay those for me. Both men last night seemed to understand FIL has hang ups about this situation, they both acknowledged indirectly that MIL is the stronger ally here.

I know this will sound absurd but I still don't have my PI report. He was working on compiling a surveillance report and trying to figure out the exact nature of WW's and OM's current living arrangements, but I have no idea what is taking so long. I'm going to contact him today to find out what the hold up is. I should at least have WW's current address from that. I think he was at least partially hung up on not getting his GPS back, but WW returned this to him over the weekend after he threatened to press charges against her for theft.

Are these good ideas? Anything I'm leaving out?

That's funny.
The PI threatened to file theft charges for his GPS?
If I found a GPS on my car I would smash it and return in in pieces to the PI

Well unfortunately she now knows she was under PI surveillance and must have met him when she returned his GPS

I'm not very impressed with your PI.
If I lived near you I think I could have got you a lot more info and found out who was staying in the house etc in a couple days

I'm not either. My choices were local yokels and a few statewide "agencies" that send someone in from out of town. This guy was local and talked a good game but I don't think he does much domestic situation work.

Think it matters much that she's aware of surveillance? She's already out of the house so I wonder if it really effects how they're conducting the affair.

Yes,

I do think it will affect her behavior.
Do you drive more carefully when you know a police officer is watching you? I do.

EDIT: It's not necessarily a bad thing either. It certainly puts more stress on the affair

I've thought that it's probably stretched the angry period after exposure a bit, as she is going to feel justified in her fog babble about me being "controlling", and whatever support group of new friends is probably also going validate her on that.

That bothers me a bit but I feel like discovery of snooping has to be common/obvious to the WS after exposure.

Since you still have WW on Facebook, perhaps you can use that as a third party Plan A advantage, since you have so little real life communication with her. For instance posting things that are fun improvements you are making to your self/life that might fill WW love bank. Post cute profile picts. Even post about things that involve her and tag her on it, like throw back Thursday pics of times you were together and happy, or a pict of a place you visit with a post about how it reminds you of the time you and WW were there for (event).

If she is using it to keep tabs on you, might as well capitalize on it.

But I would suggest not going from one post a month to ten posts a day, just a few subtle posts here and there.

This is a great idea, thank you.

Interesting discussion with MIL yesterday. She agreed to relay letters to WW for me since I don't have her phone # now. This was an idea that came out of the discussion with SIL's husband.

WW and I used to exchange handwritten notes a lot and she really enjoys them (she always kept a collection of all the ones I'd written her going back to our dating days), so I see this as a great Plan A opportunity.

WW apparently told MIL about her actions that "I don't expect you to approve or understand". MIL seems pretty tore up about this but it sounds like fog babble to me.

I've been working on a list of topics for notes. Good memories or times together, things I love about her, things I'm changing for the better, etc. Anything I'm not thinking of here on good topics for a Plan A love note?

WW just contacted me via Facebook. I had sent her a Facebook message yesterday informing her of my intention to keep what she had left at the marital home (pet, property) and relocate it to my new house, as well as stating that I still believe in the recovery of our marriage and am willing to work to provide her a marriage where she will feel loved, valued, understood, etc. Also gave her some positive updates on situations in social circles we used to share such as church, and told her that I loved her, was praying for us, and thinking of her.

Her response was very businesslike and restrained. She at no point acknowledged the A or the restraining order, and said she had not contacted me because my behavior was scaring her. Also stated that she does not trust me, however, she said she knew she needed to contact me so that "we can move forward". Her family has expressed a lot of disgust with knowing she refuses to contact me so I wonder if she felt put up to this.

There is some discussion about property division and bills. In my message I had asked her about some joint bills we have and asked for her assistance in working out a way for us to transparently pay them. In her response she hints a lot at me putting money back into our joint checking account so they can be paid that way, and tries to provide justification for how she had misused it before I stopped putting my paychecks into it. I'm not falling for that.

She gave me some passwords for joint bills she had managed in the past and asked me to pay things with remaining balances according to a split she came up with on her own.

At the end she asks me to transfer the vehicle she has (which is in my name) to her name if she mails me the title (which she took).

Also refuses to give me her phone number at this time near the end of the message and instead provides me an email address and a PO box.


Most of the message looks like foglighting to me as other than snooping/exposure I have been extremely Plan A for almost 3 months now to her. Even calls or texts to her have been overwhelmingly positive other than a few texts about the A and a FB message presenting her the evidence of the A that I have and recommending that she stop lying to her family. Everything else has been Plan A.

But, very clearly she's trying to posture herself as reasonable and me as scary and dangerous. Also lots of asking or telling me to do things, e.g. "will you pay this?" or "will you do this to help with the old house?".

I am unsure of how exactly to respond because while I know she hasn't filed yet, the tone of her message is so dry I think she's fishing for something she could hold up in a D proceeding or for another run at a restraining order.

I think OM or the affairage relatives she's gotten close to are possibly trying to help her in this regard.

What do you guys think? Everything in me wants to just be very frank with her about things but I feel like that would be unwise here.

I can't remember if you already have an attorney, if you do, bring her requests for bill paying to him/her and have the attorney's work that out. You should not be paying for a house you were forced to leave due to her A and restraining order, unless you are mandated by law to do so. It is not your job to finance her affair and make life easier for her.

I do have an attorney, spoke to him on Tuesday about the denied RO and also to be prepared.

I don't know for certain that WW even has an attorney yet. I worry that if I advise her of mine it will escalate things or give her ammo to provide to her family that I'm dishonest about wanting to reconcile. Is this a well grounded fear? With the exception of FIL there appears to be agreement on her side of the family for her to work on the marriage and I think she would relish being able to show me as disingenuous because it would take pressure off her.

The rental lease is up at the end of the month so we're just talking about this month's rent since she's been gone and 2 weeks since I've moved out.

The joint bills don't represent very much money, just a small credit card, our PayPal account, and a financed appliance that I took when I moved out. We never financed much so I'm more concerned about not damaging our credit and her insistence on dividing things according to her concept of fair.

This was discussed on another thread and MelodyLane posted that the betrayed husband should let his wayward wife know that he has an attorney and intends to bring OM on the witness stand.

EDIT: I just remembered that the poster had children. Since you don't, and she hasn't filed for divorce then I wouldn't say anything about attorneys.

axe,

There is something you should consider and maybe you already have considered it..or perhaps you are so focused on Plan A that you haven't.

But considering that you don't have children, you may want to set a timeline for how long you are willing to Plan A before entering Plan B.
Dr. Harley often advises men to Plan A for years when they have children.

But consider this: There are many women out there that would love to be in a relationship with a man that wanted to meet their needs and be loyal.

You are young enough that you could start all over and do fine.

It's just something to consider.

I've been thinking 6 months from DDay which would put me at mid March of next year since I've seen that suggested here for Plan A on a WW, and if no change go Plan B or D. That's just past our anniversary, not that a wayward cares, but anyhow.

Plan A isn't too draining when the WS refuses to have anything to do with you. Hopefully that will change. It was much more draining at the start during counseling and she was treating me like an inconvenient roommate who could be counted on for any honeydo she could think of or foot/neck/scalp massages to help with her guilt-induced insomnia and high blood pressure. Both issues appeared out of nowhere this summer shortly after the A appears to have started, she actually had to go on BP prescription meds. Once I realized she would lie to our pastor and even her own parents about her intentions to reconcile (she'd come home and tell me privately she wasn't) it was nearly impossible to keep bending over backwards for her. A few days before I confronted her about her phone password and she left, I had the audacity to gently kiss her on the lips after a scalp massage and she just grimaced like she was completely repulsed by me. Even as she refused to commit to MC she nightly asked for and complimented me on my massages but wanted zero romantic affection. I do wonder how well she's able to sleep now.

Her no contact thing is so weird because other than insisting on no kisses/saying she loves me, towards the end of counseling I had put a dent in her resolve with LB deposits and she was much warmer towards me, texting me during the day, offering me small favors (e.g. making food) and joking with me. Literally the only thing that has changed since then was confronting her on the phone password and then exposing the affair after I uncovered it. That makes me wonder how much of her refusing contact is anger about exposure versus guilt versus wanting a new phone so she wouldn't have to take calls from people I exposed her to.

I try not to dwell too much on moving on but I figure by March if things don't really improve I'll be more comfortable walking away from this. And then I guess dating again and working towards a solid MB based marriage so I never have to go through this again. This is awful and I know now I could do much more to build an A-proof marriage.

My family is really urging me to D when I'm around them so it's hard to avoid thinking about it. Her immediate family is kinda split between very supportive and gaslit depending on the individual. And everyone else (friends, church, etc) has been urging me not to D because they're shocked. WW has pretty much abandoned our entire social circle since she moved out, so there's a lot of people who are confused and not wanting this to be true.

The fact that your wife is in seclusion is a good sign. She can't face her family and community because you have outed her. After a while, when the fantasy of the affair deteriorates, this will affect her. She will have nowhere to turn. Provide a safe landing for her.

I've thought this too. Her current social circle is people she barely knows and I think at some point she will realize she's made a bad trade.

It's made her parents/family scared they will lose her though. I think some of them blame me for that because of the exposure.

I'm going to ensure I am completely non-threatening and warm to her so she doesn't feel like her bridge back is burned.

How should I respond to these requests in the message? On the bills I've thought of saying I will transfer an agreed upon amount to the joint account on an agreed upon date, and if she decides to spend it on other things, that option disappears forever.

On her vehicle I'm uncertain. Technically the vehicle was a gift to her but I don't feel it is right to just transfer it to her name in light of how she has treated me. There's probably more than a hundred hours of work in customization/restoration on it that I've put it. I have thought maybe it could be used as a bargaining chip of sorts? I think her current dilemma is that the tags are expired and rather than just asking me to go to the DMV with her to renew them she just wants ownership outright.

I would not transfer anything; stop paying any joint bills. No collaboration on any joint accounts, close them all.
I think agreeing with her could be a type of reinforcement of her separation.

But, I suggest you wait until other more experienced posters respond. I don't know what Dr. Harley would advise in this scenerio.

Basically, the question is: When a cheating spouse leaves the home to pursue their affair, unsucessfully attempts to obtain a restraining order against the betrayed spouse and asks the betrayed spouse to collaborate on payment of joint bills and transfer a vehicle to the cheating spouse's name how should the betrayed spouse respond?

This is what I've drafted as a response. Thoughts?

----

WW,

I have documented everything you have told me from the night you asked to separate (8/26/2014) and I can give you times and places where you have either misled me or others about what you intended to do in this situation or openly acknowledged having misled me over the last several months. This was done because I was stunned and heartbroken at the disregard you have for our wedding vows and your sudden reversal in your beliefs on the Biblical covenant of marriage, and this gave me reason to suspect you were not being honest but I wanted to be certain. I am sorry you feel scared or mistrustful of me and I want to cultivate feelings of trust in our marriage. But the simple facts of the situation are likely why the judge denied your restraining order. I pose no threat to you and this is obvious.

Your actions have caused me greater pain and suffering than anything I've ever experienced and they are also causing tremendous amounts of pain and suffering to your own family and to our friends. People are hurt because they were around us when we were together and understood the love and Godly joy that existed in our marriage (despite our difficulties and how you have tried to rewrite the history of our relationship) and do not wish to see this torn apart in such a reckless fashion. I ask you to end your relationship with OM and come home to work on our marriage as well as coming back to church.

I would also encourage you to go to this website ( state courts website ) and search for OM. You should know he's been divorced twice already (among other things), and perhaps you already do.

There are a large number of demands in this message and I have absolutely no intention of negotiating them by Facebook message. If you would like to work these things out come meet me in person. I moved because I wanted to shield myself and our marriage home from things like a restraining order, not because I intend to divvy up our possessions as if the marriage is over. You made the choice about what you think is "yours" when you decided to show up without warning and move things out without any discussion. My standpoint on the property is still that it is "ours" and not "yours" or "mine".

While I don't want to deny you access to our marital property, I also am not willing to consider our assets divided along yours/mine lines. Property in a marriage belongs to both spouses, and while you may want to abandon the marriage I do not.

I love you and want to work together to have a loving and romantic marriage, but any decision you make here, you make alone. I do not go down this road with you, and especially not like this. If you're serious about working out these bills, my door is to you is open.

Do you think that the tone might not be generally accusatory and thus threatening your Plan A?

Yeah, I'm already working with a friend on toning it down. Good call.

The best reply in many occasions is no reply at all.

The only thing she will read is that you are accusing her of rewriting the marital history and the way she currently feels, is that her version is the true reality version from Her perspective.

Also, by not agreeing with the asset division, you will be labeled as controlling.

I suggest you just sit on it and when/if she brings it up again, you just say you will need to discuss that with someone else to get proper advice. Tben see if she would like to go out for a snack and act like you are not bothered by it at all.

LTL

Axe,
I think it is a very good idea to send a letter, but this one is way off base. If you don't mind, I will draft something for you to review. Give me a couple of hours.

This is a good offer, axe

Thank you, I would be very grateful for that. I tamed my version quite a bit and almost sent it and then decided not to. I just didn't feel like it would help anything.

Her message wasn't mean or emotional, just very assertive about what she wanted done. And between that and the fog babble about me being scary and untrustworthy I let my frustration get away from me. DJs are a problem for me.

If you could type it into a notepad document and then paste it and submit it here that would be great: http://0bin.net/

After you click submit and the page showing you what you typed shows up, you just copy the web address and post that here. I don't know if WW is aware of this, but she'd only have to take a few sentences of whatever I send her and Google it to find this entire post, if we post the whole letter on MB. Using 0bin will allow you to share it without the content of the letter being searchable, as well as setting an expiration date on it.

I'll work on it on Halloween, Axe. Wasn't able to ge to it tonight.

Axe,

I drafted the letter per your instructions, and it can be found here: http://0bin.net/paste/-xbSqrCg0mY1rNZp#xsDalk-SabD+PUWUfjms/F2CPcPol2DFbTZIo6JQVtr

This letter is meant to be a Plan A love letter. Business issues and the finger pointing are left out.

Your wife who is in the fog may not respond to it. In fact, she probably won't. But by sending it you are showing her that you care, and you do so with tender expression. If and when the fog lifts, she will remember how you demonstrated love and commitment, even when she was wayward.

In all future communications with your wife, desist from disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, and selfish demands. Very, very hard to do when you are being abused. But that is what will make you the superior man.

Good luck.

Thank you Justthe3ofus, this is an awesome template of how to communicate in this situation. I will put this to good use. Also thank you for the suggestion about avoiding finger pointing, that sums up very well how I can avoid not doing what I'm naturally inclined to do here.

OM's stand is supposed to be open tomorrow according to his FB (was closed last week when I went to confront). Going to talk to him.

Good luck in your meeting with the OM. Glad you are confronting him.

Just confronted OM. What a rush.

Had to go alone, nobody I could find to go with me today but I did take a VAR and it got what I said cleanly recorded in case he tries to say I threatened him.

Very short conversation, maybe 3 minutes tops.

Went up to his stand, customers talking to him. Just jumped right in and started and the customers cleared out of his stand and all of the ones next to us.

Kept it short and sweet. Just told him that I knew about the A and that I wasn't going anywhere nor scared to face him. Told him that WW means a lot to me, that I had stood at an altar and swore to love her, and that things were not over between he and I.

What a sleazy character. He was shaking, wouldn't look me in the eyes. Tried to deny the A until I cited evidence, then made excuses and said they were friends. Very quickly pulled out his phone and said he was going to call the cops if I didn't leave.

Finished saying what I had to say and left. He tried to get in some parting shots as I was walking off, but I just kept walking.

A little concerned about another RO filing or other sleazy attempts to damage me but I have my VAR recording. I wasn't trying to disregard advice here about backup, I just didn't want to wait any longer and I knew at this point I could control myself. Now to see where the chips fall!

Good!

Great job, Axe. Glad you did this. And the VAR was a great safety precaution. I'm glad you did it at his workplace and in front of his customers. You did it, Eastwood!

One day when the fog lifts from your wife, she will look up to you for fighting for your marriage. Wive's want to know that their husbands will fight for them.

Right now you may be the villain to her, but later she will see it differently.

Why not send her a text right now letting her know that you are still fighting for her and that you just confronted the other man. Leave out the details of the conversation with him and just let her know. You plant Plan A seeds by doing so.

MIL sent me a text with some updates about WW last night.

Apparently WW is not driving the vehicle she took. She told them it's non-operable currently, but it could just be that she can't register or insure it without me as it's in my name. I've noticed it's not at her workplaces when I've drove by, one is on my way to work. What she told them is broke would only take $100 to fix.

I guess she's using public transportation to get around. They've seen her walking between bus stops and her work. WW apparently told them she's taking turns staying with different friends right now, has no long term housing. Also apparently near broke.

My hunch is that OM has suckered her into a shared business scheme. OM had put on his biz FB page earlier this week that the reason his stand wasn't open the last two weeks was "due to another project that is now finished". WW had mentioned something to her parents about a new business opportunity around the same time. Hard to know where all of her $$$ went but I have a hunch that it may have gone into whatever this project is, and possibly is gone now. Like he milked her for some $$$ and sex with empty promises about business partnership.

They are concerned for her well being because she was apparently sick when they last saw her and has been refusing hospitality from them (rides to work, staying with them, etc), but are frustrated because she also borrowed a large sum of money from them a month ago and is now broke.

I am weary of the accuracy of any of this since she is in the fog but I wonder if her affair world is collapsing around her. I also wonder if confronting OM might be a death blow to the affair relationship. If this bit about the vehicle is true he doesn't seem to be much willing to help her, and he was certainly unhappy yesterday that I confronted at his place of business. Between what she's kept to herself and the amount of money her parents loaned her, she could have easily paid an attorney to file for D by now if that was her objective.

Not to get ahead of myself but I've been reading other threads trying to figure out the process goes of taking her back if she breaks down and wants to move back in. I feel like I must get agreement on EPs and an STD test before I open the door to her. Am I wrong?

Yes, EPs must be in place. And she will need to send a no contact letter that you read and make sure is delivered.

WW found the Cheaterville post, just replied to it. Fog babble about her planning to leave me before meeting OM, calling him a victim and a friend. Disheartening to see she's still so fogged at this point.

After sleeping on it, the Cheaterville response doesn't bother me as much. She admits the business relationship and calls him a business associate, so my hunch about a business venture was spot on.

Also never refutes the affair and actually confirms the story I provided about him by trotting out "I was wanting to leave before OM and I met anyways" fog babble. Waywards are so short sighted. It's almost like she doesn't understand the meaning of the word "cheat" or the entire point of the site. Fogged out thinking.

I guess I was just a little stunned at her willingness to go to a public site to defend their affair. But in retrospect, I think the exposure and confrontation must be causing them issues or else she wouldn't bother. I never sent OM a link to the post or anything so I'm kind of amused/curious that it got back to him.

If she does come out of the fog however, this (like all of the lying to her own family) will be incredibly embarrassing. You can't delete what's posted on Cheaterville. That's there forever now.

Axslinger,

You are correct in getting STD testing and then perhaps waiting 3 or 4 months for a 2nd STD test before you would resume any non-safe contact.

Amazing how many empty and worthless OM "businessmen / entrepreneurs" are out there, they are the male equivalents of female prostitutes who claim to be actresses / models.

Wow, WW borrowed money from her family for OM? It's already wasted, possibly for drugs, very sad.

God Bless
Gamma

Axe,
Did you let your WW that you confronted the OM?

I'm going to send her a Facebook today about it. She deactivated her old phone so I can't text her.

Realizing this was a mistake. He broke the news first to her. :S

What's your mistake?

When she asks, you just let her know that you care about her too much to allow an affair to occur without fighting for both of your marriages.

Then end that topic. Honey, I am willing to create a safe and loving marriage, but your affair must end before you will feel cherished by your own husband. Or something similar that someone else suggests.

LTL

Of course he did. The point is to share with your wife that you are fighting for her. It doesn't matter who tells her first. As I said before, she is in the fog now and I'm sure they are both demonizing you, but later if she comes out of the fog she will love and respect you for having the nads to fight for the marriage.

It's interesting to me that the WS and AP seem to enjoy foglighting the BS. OM had a very snide demeanor with me (e.g. "yeah you think you know a lot") until I started presenting evidence at which point he backpedaled and pulled out the textbook absurd excuses. WW at this point isn't trying anymore in the limited communication we have, she's more on the "I wanted to leave when OM and I started so it's not cheating" or "this is your fault, OM has nothing to do with it" bandwagon. But obviously there has been discussion between them about what I do or do not know about the A, and they enjoy feeling like I'm in the dark on things.

That's just bizarre to me. I guess they just really need to feel like there's an antagonist to fill the "crazy ex" spot in their narrative.

They have to keep lying or the whole fantasy crumbles. People see through the lies more than you may realize.
The wayward has lost all credibility with others and likely doesn't even realize it.
Expect more demonizing, that is the reason exposure needs to be fast and wide spread.
Their crash will come, from all the stressors that have now plagued their fantasy.

Affairees are usually desperate to justify the affair and come up with all kinds of ridiculous excuses. They will rewrite marital history so that only the bad things are remembered and none of the good things and often pick fights so they can say, "See, we don't get along; our marriage is a mistake."

There is a certain thrill to some affairees about the secrecy and intrigue involved with the affair.

Expect to hear a lot of nonsense. Try not to react to it.

Have you read this? Craziest Things to Come out of a Wayward's Piehole

I'll check out that thread BrainHurts, I've read some similar ones. It's amazing how uncreative the waywards are (and the APs!), like they are all reading the same script without realizing it exists. There's another one in the Recovery Forum about Alien Abduction of the WS that describes wayward behaviors to a T, just uncanny.

Sheriff just stopped by to inform me that OM filed a restraining order against me but it was ALSO denied. LOL

Poor guy. Someone should get him a tissue.

Find out what judge denied it and make sure you vote for him in future elections.
Maybe send $10 to his re-election campaign

No joke!

I'm guessing that you found the source of the RO crap, if he was that quick to file.

^agreed

Ha ha that's funny!!

Hey Axe,
you my friend are a bad a%�!!
Man I'm glad my W affair didn't go like yours, I'm not sure I could take it. I'm glad my W affair was over on D day.
You are doing it right! Grind your teeth and hang in there!
I'm praying for you!

Your wife is on a dead end street and deep down she knows it. I don't think her affair is built to last. Most aren't. Have you sent her a letter?

I'm going to write the letter and send it tomorrow. I did send her a Facebook message yesterday mentioning my discussion with OM.

Also she's now deleted her Facebook account, apparently.

Or she may have just blocked you.

Yes, a friend told me this is what happened. Blocked me and unfriended several of my close friends. Not sure about my family but I'd guess the same. So weird, I had not sent her anything but Plan A stuff, very careful about no DJs (though I almost sent that message last week that had several). Even my words about confronting OM didn't speak at all to her conduct, just that I was obligated to defend my marriage and thus he and I had to have a chit-chat. Also my response to her on Cheaterville quoted a post she made on FB about how she loved me to defuse a claim she made about not loving me before she met OM. I didn't rub her nose in it as much as asking her to compare it with what she wrote in her own comment.

I know unfriending on Facebook is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of what she's done to me, but it's just weird. I also wonder if she's cleaning her profile of any references to me...she posted a LOT about us/me on there. Pictures, videos, stories, etc. We were pretty openly affectionate and playful online.

She did provide an email address for me that she had created since this all started, and I still have the letters relay via MIL so I'm not totally cut off yet I guess.

How are things going Axe?

LTL

Please do tell.

Not much for an update. I've been keeping myself busy. MIL and FIL will text me occasionally with a note about things with WW or their thoughts/prayers for our situation, but otherwise I'm in the dark on her.

Her family seems to be pretty upset about how she's gone no contact on me. Talked to a BIL the other day and he apologized to me and said the no contact thing is "unacceptable". Seemed like he was beside himself. I'm at a loss for words in a discussion like that, but I do appreciate him taking the time to check in on me.

I do email her a verse/thought from my daily Bible reading and a short note that I love her and am praying for her each morning. I try to share where it is helping me grow or mature in areas that were problems for us. Not condescending prayers, just prayers of protection and such. No responses yet. I try to keep it very brief, maybe a paragraph or two tops.

Some of my friends and family said they weren't blocked on FB, so whatever that's about seems to have been kinda kneejerk rather than methodical. It's about to get very cold where I live and I think the reality of her choices might set in a little more clearly, especially with her walking everywhere.

No idea what to expect from here since I'm out of the loop. I just take it a day at a time, try not to spin my wheels on "figuring out" what her actions mean, and work on providing a safe and comfortable landing spot for her if she decides to come back. My gut feeling is that things will fall apart for her knowing the details that I do know, but not sure what to expect after that happens.

I am listening to the MB Radio broadcasts each day though.

Learning a lot.

You're doing a great job in Plan A, Axe.

Other than making Plan A deposits, it's time to sit and wait. Keep us posted with further developments. God bless.

That's great.
I've learned more from the Radio Show than his books.

The no contact deal wears on me from time to time. She's still fogged and unrepentant in the limited communication we do have which hurts, but the silence is more of a numb pain. Feeling like I'm on the end of her list, so to speak. Like I mean nothing to her now.

Her immediate family has her new cell # but I don't. I'm not sure how many of them realize this, but her parents definitely do and aren't sharing it because she's asked them not to and they are scared of alienating her further. Really the whole family is at this point, like they're going to lose her. Conflict aversion. When they contact me they apologize about her behavior but are worried about her volatility. Only one other sibling is married in the family so mostly they don't know how to react. FIL mentioned last week that he feels they've lost her trust and that he sensed something was amiss with her earlier this summer but didn't know what. I don't reach out to them much but they text me a few times a week and I respond in whatever way is appropriate.

There are some things I don't think they are aware of (such as the fact that she admitted on Cheaterville to being in a relationship and business partnership with OM), but I'm unsure if I should share this with them. After the exposure they dismissed some of my evidence of the A after she provided an unverified alibi and I've gotten mixed signals from her parents on whether they believe this is an affair or simply her having a personal crisis. I know they are very upset with her behavior, but I think they are scared to pressure her any further. She promised MIL not to have any contact with OM, so obviously she's still lying to them.

I do feel like WW is still pretty deep in the fog. She has 3 credit accounts that have been trying to bill out of our old joint bank account and are all now in collections. This is going to destroy her credit, and any future ability of her to get a business loan (particularly since one of the accounts is the remaining balance from her failed business earlier this year). I have redirected all of the collections calls to FIL since he has her number and I don't.

2 of these credit lines were for marital property that she doesn't consider hers and so I've emailed her offering to work something out so they could be paid (but of course in a way that would protect me, e.g. her providing statements and canceling the plastic). No response. We're not talking huge amounts of money, less than $1500 combined on these 2 accounts. Just bizarre to me, no idea what she is thinking here.

This is Wayward 101, but I don't think I've mentioned it so here goes: She's abandoned several hobbies of hers. Our pets she adored, all of her garden equipment (she was an avid vegetable gardener), everything but the stuff related to this business venture with OM. All sorts of paperwork related to her college classes, hobbies, Bible study, family, etc. It's kind of a good thing because it's also been a red flag to her family, they mentioned it to me. Undermines the credibility of what she's been telling them about things.

FIL texted me earlier this week about wanting to have a get together with me and the rest of her family because they're worried about "how I'm holding up". This is a nice gesture and I told him to let me know when they want to do it. I expect some awkwardness but I know they're trying to be supportive.

It's cold here and I'm going to try to pick up a scarf today for WW and have her parents pass it along to her for me. She really likes them when it's cold out. Maybe drop that off along with a Plan A letter.

You need to get yourself in front of the finances with your attorney.
Waywards have done crazy things, she knows your SSN, she could wreck havoc on your credit.
My wayward ex was looking at plastic surgeons, she got her tubes tied on my dime, got 2 credit cards without me knowing, just as an example.
Get any and all joint accounts closed. Get your name removed off of anything that is not in your control. You will have to fight and be tenacious. Get a temporary hold filed in court, your attorney knows what to do.

Only joint accounts we had were the bank account and a small credit card, both of which I've canceled the plastic for. Everything that affects my credit I've already taken over, this is all on her at this point.

Good call on the deal with SSNs and my identity though, I hadn't even considered that.

You are still married, (and unless you have a court order preventing her), she could take out all sorts of loans, credit cards, etc. Guess what it is marital debt and you own half of it. She could default on a loan, and you could have been unwittingly added to collections.
It will look bad for her to do that, but if i remember you haven't done any court stuff yet.
This is where the predator type OM start getting them to do financial crazy things. You said she is business partnering with this POSOM, beware of your finances.

^Thank you for that advice. I will contact my attorney about this tomorrow. We spoke about it during my consult and he didn't seem to think I was in any risk from her debt after I advised him about it, but it's worth following up (her business debt is over $5k), and I certainly don't want any new loans in my name.

You are correct, there is no legal action that has been taken by either side at this point.

This dude she is with is very slimy and has all sorts of litigation records towards him on the state courts website for prior unpaid debts. I think you're right that he might try to get her to do something like that, I think he's steering a lot of her decisions right now.

Its been some time since I looked at your thread ax.

WOW. Your WW is frightening in different ways from mine. Keep up the good work my friend. Protect yourself, it sounds like she is capable of all sorts of financial havoc.

Axe,
Your in-laws realize that your is lost, and they want to be found but fear losing her altogether. The truth is she is close to rock bottom right now and no one can help her but herself. She will hit it, and over time you may have a chance to rescue her. That is why Plan A caring is important right now. I'd send the letter soon.

You have taken the right steps so far. In the meantime, what are you doing to take care of yourself? What do you do these days when you are not working?

^On the letter, I dropped that off last night at her parents house. They're going to see her either later this week or for Thanksgiving. I put together a little winter gift pack for her, stuff I know she could use or would enjoy. She doesn't handle the cold well and gets real dry skin so I know being on foot in this weather is probably taking its toll on her.

I just put the letter in with the gift pack, and put a short blurb in there about the gifts and remembering a winter trip we took a few years ago that would be a positive memory for her.

Outside of work I've been tying up some loose ends with other projects of mine. I'm a car guy and I've got a classic I'm installing a new engine into. Almost done with that so that feels good. I've also volunteered for stuff at church, which has really helped lift my spirits. I have a software development company I run on the side and after I'm finished with the car this weekend I'm going to transition to projects in that area. I'm pretty goal oriented, so I'm happy when I'm knocking stuff off my list.

BUT....I know if we ever get to R, I've got to do a much better job spending less time working and more time for undivided attention between us.

I really have great people around me supporting me. People at church have been very encouraging, also my immediate family really has been going the extra mile to check in and spend time with me. Also a handful of my close friends have been doing the same. I'm very blessed in that way.

I hear a lot of people on here recommend exercise and I'm going to try to get that started this week. I've got a gym membership and I used to weight lift a lot, it's something I really enjoy.

Overall, I'm mostly doing pretty well with things at this point. I was a total wreck between when she dropped the separation bomb and D-day, probably needed to be on ADs. Couldn't eat/sleep/etc very well for weeks. But none of that since the beginning of this month.

I just kind of get stung now and then by memories and when I think about how long it's been since I've talked to her or seen her. The lack of contact makes this whole thing seem like unreality at times, because it's as if she's just disappeared into thin air. I know she exists and where she works or whatever, but being so close to her (same city) and not ever seeing her is bizarre. Even more bizarre is seeing every single other person from our life together (especially her family) and hearing people talk about her, or conversation they've had with her. Just very strange.

You are playing this right, Axe. Hang in there and take heart knowing you're being true to plan A. Perfect move with the care package and letter. It will confuse her and throw her off. That is a good thing. You may hear nothing fom her, but that does not mean there was no impact.

Really glad to hear that you have a strong support network and church community. Also great to know you have some hobbies and will start an exercise routine. All these things will help.

You are doing great.

Axslinger,

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=153286&Number=2136196#Post2136196

Your thread reminds me of an older thread by PSUBIKER, where the OM was a pimp of a human being who extracted or destroyed everything in the WWs life. So you may have to wait it out for quite awhile, on the plus side in your case the OM appears to operate more from stupidity and has less malicious competence.

God Bless
Gamma

Wow. Only brushed over the first and last pages on that but pretty wild. I'd agree on your comparison of the OMs in that case and mine. Some of me wants to give OM benefit of the doubt based on the fact that he's a "gone back to college late in life" person, like he's trying to be a good person in his own twisted way.

But then again, with this whole situation...he's in his mid 40s and twice divorced....he knows exactly what he's doing here.

It's hard to imagine my WW going quite that far off the deep end as the woman in that thread, but then again I saw none of what's already happened coming. My WW is an industrious and hard working person (something that is attractive to me), she simply struggles with depression from what I can tell. Her college GPA is nearly perfect and she was highly recognized in her areas of study. Her vocational classes were part of the SkillsUSA organization and she was a national finalist in her area of study in 2012.

Last time I was "in the loop", shortly after she moved out, she was working over 50 hours a week in her two entry-level jobs, so I think she still has that concept of self sufficiency.

However, I really don't understand her strategy. She makes enough to probably move into an her own apartment pretty easily. Or file for divorce. Or fix her car. Or pay her bills.

And her two interests are furthering her education and/or starting a business, which she took a semester off for this past spring. Unless she does a student loan and drops a job, I think she'll be stretched to go back to school.

Obviously there's OMs business but it's not exactly a profit magnet from what I have observed. What came to the surface in MC was that she was deeply hurt by what I meant as constructive criticism of her business plans. I have much more real world business experience but she is formally educated in business management and felt I was unqualified to critique her plans because they were in food services and not areas I work in. I am sure that OM used this to demonize me and make LB deposits with her.

Who knows what happens when she realizes OM is not a serious business partner. She's already been through that once this year with a female friend that flaked out in her startup this spring and she was devastated. She is conflict averse and came to me to help her be assertive in sorting out the fallout of that situation, and it actually was a very good time for us. Around our anniversary, and I think ENs were being met because I supported her in an important way.

But maybe a month after this I started saying no to borrowing more money for another startup, and this is around the time OM came into the picture for her. Don't know if that paints the picture more clearly here.

Are you paying all the bills?

Not her bills (other than auto insurance on her vehicle). Our cars were all bought with cash so I don't pay anything for the vehicle she has, and both of us have private health insurance policies rather than a shared insurance policy. If I had to venture a guess, I'd guess she's lost her health insurance because of what I know about her credit cards/loan not being paid.

We have very little debt so there weren't many bills other than the basics. Only reason I know about her unpaid bills is because she had my phone number on the account and I was getting calls from collections.

FIL wants what I think is going to be a 1 on 1 meeting tomorrow, texted me this morning about it. I'm going to do it, but who knows what to expect.

He had described it as wanting to see "how I'm holding up".

He mentioned that WW is going to be staying with her family for a few days for Thanksgiving. I am kind of curious if there will be any pressure on her about us. Who knows, but might be interesting to be a fly on the wall.

Her younger brother and I are very close and he's been pretty shaken up by this I guess. He commented on something I posted on FB and we had a fun/joking conversation like we always used to. Significant because I hadn't heard anything from him since this started. Maybe a positive sign that he may talk to her Thursday about things.

I've got emailing Dr. Harley on my list of to-do's. I know I should have ages ago but I've just been thinking about some of the unusual aspects of this case compared to others, and I've realized I need to do that. Listening to the show has helped me understand that these situations are generally the same but individually unique, so I'm very curious about what he'd suggest.

I emailed Dr.Harley the night I was forced out of my home. He called me at 7 a.m. the next morning! I was totally unprepared but it was great to hear from someone who knows exactly what he's talking about when it comes to waywards. He definitely does what he does because he wants the best for people. I wouldn't delay contacting him, you're definitely not imposing.

Update on the meeting with FIL. Went very well actually.

He's really come around on things and was completely supportive. Her family is all getting the cold shoulder to an extent from her and so they're hurt by it. NebDane, you called it on a loss of credibility with them. He mentioned that they feel she isn't being forthright about things. I hurt for them too, but it's better than them being fogged about things. And truly this was a big boost for my resolve because I feel assured now that people in her family are not fence-sitting on this issue. We both felt Thanksgiving might offer some opportunity for the family to nudge her on the issue.

I understand the decision is hers to make (not her family's) but it helps me to feel like there is broad support there for R, rather than people trying to rationalize something they know is wrong. I feel very blessed by that, given what I've read about other situations on here!

We talked for probably an hour and then prayed together, and I left. It's awkward and I know a lot of people would have not done this, but I stepped into the void trusting God here and feel rewarded for that. I've had falling out happen in my own family and know a lot of times the fear of the unknown paralyzes people and actions of love/grace are one of the few things that can overcome that.

Great news! I'm glad your FIL is coming around.

It sounds good!!!!
I am always the skeptic. So just be careful, he could have been gathering info on your next move and your strategy/tactics. You got burnt once.

I hope they are supportive and truly use their influence.

One thing that has stood out in this case is your wife's estrangement from her family. That doesn't happen often (although it did to a lesser extent in my case). The fact that she is staying away indicates she has shame, and that bode wells for recovery in my opinion. That is one of the reasons I've posted to you in the past that I think you have a good shot at fixing this. Once things start to go south with the OM, chances are the fog will lift and you will become an attractive option.

Support from your in-laws helps, but just be aware that they are caught in the middle. Blood is still thicker than water. I wouldn't distrust them, but I wouldn't count on them either. I think you've played this well and you have a mature perspective on the matter.

Have a happy Thanksgiving, and stay the course.

God bless.

Any updates, axslinger?

Not really. MIL sent me a Facebook message yesterday and wants a Christmas list from me as they apparently want to do a gift exchange with me in spite of things. It's a sweet gesture but it's so awkward.

I'm still pondering how to respond. I discussed this with a friend in my discipleship group this morning and he thinks I should go along with to encourage continuity of that relationship. He's probably right and I will likely do that, but it's very weird for me.

For me, thinking about her family makes me think about her, thinking about her makes me think about how she's treating me, thinking about how she's treating makes me wonder why I'm not just divorcing her and moving on. So it's sort of a vicious cycle. :S

I can easily remember what the non-affair version of her was like, and imagine us in a MB-based marriage where we're actually trying to meet ALL of each other's needs (and frankly, I think that would be amazing...it's the outcome I want the most).....but the old version of her seems like a fantasy at this point and part of me wants to just let her live with her idiotic choices here, and walk away. I'm trying not to be disrespectful with that but when I look at OM and the other choices she's made in her self-imposed exile, I just scratch my head.

My wife and I didn't have the tools provided by MB and with them we could have an amazing marriage, because we were both caring and patient people who truly didn't understand how to fix our problems but were desperate to so our marriage could be fuller and more vibrant. We both read books/articles and tried all sorts of things to ignite the sexual chemistry for her. She had no libido, she knew it hurt me, and she felt guilty about it and didn't understand it. She wasn't as vocal about her unmet ENs but they did surface during MC so I'm aware of where I could have been better also. Obviously our romance was not great but we were truly best friends who did very well on a lot of the other areas like conversation, recreational companionship, etc. So while I was miserable with the lack of SF in our pre-affair marriage, I think we could actually have a much better marriage than we ever did before if we got on board with MB to build the romance aspect, and that's encouraging to me. I think we could really recover well if we both committed to MB.

But then again how desperate or committed to fixing our problems was she? The amount of dishonesty and malice in her behavior related to the affair (lying to everyone, trying to damage me legally in response to exposure, going no contact) really makes me wonder how much of a handle I actually had on who she really is. I know it's the fog, but some of this stuff is pretty heavy duty. Maybe I'd lose my mind if I had an affair but I can't imagine doing some of this to anyone, let alone a faithful spouse. I won't lie, we don't have kids yet but we'd talked about having kids and when I see the amount of "crazy" going on here I think "I don't know if I want kids with you!" I see what face1 and some of the others with children have been put through and I count my blessings. Dr. Harley said on his show earlier this week that disillusionment was liberating because it frees us from an illusion, and when I look at my wife I'm disillusioned and wondering if what I see now is the real deal.

Sorry to vent. I'm still Plan A'ing over here like bandit, finding sweet and complimentary things to say to her in my emails, along with fond memories we had. I'll probably send her a letter later this week or next through her parents. It's just the rest of what is actually happening here that catches up with me sometimes. Plan A is like looking at Mr. Hyde and forcing yourself to pretend you're looking at and talking to Dr. Jekyll. She was never like this at all during our marriage, but remembering that constantly doesn't change the fact that she is absolutely like that now. However, I truly don't know how she is feeling since I have no contact, and maybe what I'm doing is actually making LB deposits with her. After all, she still hasn't filed.

I'm working on an email to Dr. Harley. I'm taking my time writing so I don't end up sending him a novel rather than an email. Being concise is a lot of work for me, I'm terrible at it.

I have thought similarly about my WW and whether or not I have ever really known her. She has done terrible things to me and lied to accomplish them. The woman I married would never manufacture stories and twist the truth just to hurt someone or gain a legal advantage. At least that's what I thought.

The only thing I can really think of to understand the extreme measures that wawywards go to is that they have buried themselves in dishonesty and become desperate to survive without ever admitting they were wrong. It creates a vicious cycle in which they only succeed in digging the hole deeper. They are not able to be realistic about the consequences of their actions.

Just my take on it.

My WW used to be strongly against infidelity and had been the victim of it in several past relationships. She denies feeling any guilt over her A, I can't believe that somewhere in her mind she is not hating what she has done. In a situation like that, it is far easier to justify ones actions and accuse everyone else of being the problem than it is to admit (especially to one's self) that the actions were terribly wrong and no one else is to blame.

I hope for the sake of you and your WW that she can find the clarity and strength to admit her mistakes and commit to making amends by working to create a great marriage. I hope similarly for all of us on MB.

Do you still feel like WW is more angry about exposure than anything else? My WW now tells me that exposing her wasn't as bad as what I've done to "hurt" her OM (the truth hurt him, not me).

I think exposure is a big part of it, yes. How angry she is for me exposing her is tough to say. Everyone in our social circle has been disapproving of her actions and her basic attitude has been "you don't understand me and I don't care what you think". I think it's more about hurting OM and destroying whatever plan she had for their relationship to remain secret.

She left the house only after I started getting suspicious about an affair, so for some reason in her mind my discovery of it was something she was desperately trying to avoid even though she was already on the way out of the marriage. She was only 1 week away from being able to leave under our agreement on counseling, she could have stuck it out if she didn't care about me knowing. I think part of the no-contact deal is that she can't emotionally handle talking to me about this now that I know and have evidence. I don't know if that's shame or guilt or frustration, but I think it's there. So that's part of it too.

She also is hypervigilant about OM, like your WW and also like pm18's case. The last time I spoke to her was early October, just after the exposure, and the first topic of discussion after I presented my evidence of their affair was to plead with me to leave OM alone. I think that's just the infatuation stage of the relationship. The defensiveness isn't about who OM is as much as how he makes her feel. She's protecting her own fantasy. Both of our situations are like the Sue and Jon reference case from SAA, they're soulmate affairs. So the emotional attachment is very high.

OM in my case has so much personal and relationship wreckage in his wake that I know if I would have sat WW down a year ago and described someone like OM, and told her to imagine a setting up a single (not married) woman similar to herself with this guy, she would have gagged. Not taking into account his personality and such (which I know she is very attracted to), just his background.

So when I see her get defensive about him it doesn't make me jealous, it makes me pity her.

At one point in their "friends" stage (in March or April) she invited me to come with her to his stand because she thought he was funny and that we'd get along famously. Irony. I stopped hearing about him after about June so I think once they got serious the idea of us being friends was dropped. I've read a lot of similar stories on here where the WS thinks the AP is good friend material for the BS or even compliments them on their similarity (many cases AFTER discovery!). Humor was a big way I won her heart back in the day so that doesn't surprise me.

Thank you, axslinger and face for these descriptions. Our wives could all be related if you look at how they're behaving. I thought mine was different, but now I see she's actually following the wayward script even at this stage in the game. My wife told me I was harassing the OW. What?! I replied that I was simply hoping the OW had a conscience and would back off once she knew I loved my wife. But seriously, how can trying to save your marriage be the dishonorable action?

Yeah this is all very much to script in each case. That was one of the most shocking things to me about the information on this site. People told me what she would do before it happened, and they were right.

The complaint about harassing the AP is not something I'd take seriously. I've been a broken record to my WW on the topic of OM:

"What he's done is morally wrong, disrespectful to me and dishonorable." That's all that has to be said. It's wrong, they know it, end of discussion.

What we're all doing here with exposure is not very common, and the "other people" are usually experienced APs (unlike our spouses). It's not THEIR first rodeo. They don't expect the BS to fight, they expect us to roll over, and when we don't, they don't get it. So they play the victim because that's the only way they can garner sympathy.

Something to think about when you get the blowback on the OP...the fact that it's happening means that the OP is putting the responsibility for their discomfort on the shoulders of the WS. The conversation in pm18's thread shows this clearly. It's creating conflict in the affair. It's a good indicator.

My WW loves to through around the harassment accusations. She actually had a provision placed in our temp. parenting plan trying to stop me from "harassing" her friends and family; most of whom I had never contacted more than one time.

Axe, great point about OPs usually being more experienced APs. Everyone has been surprised at how I've attacked the A.

"She actually had a provision placed in our temp. parenting plan trying to stop me from "harassing" her friends and family; most of whom I had never contacted more than one time."

Was this cleared by her lawyer and yours? What were the details if so? You have to be careful not to overstep if there's something written down and approved by the courts.

This doesn't quite belong on this thread but I appreciate your concern.

The details of that provision are very vague but it does say harassment. As defined by law, I have never done anything near harassment and have no intentions of it. Her family is my son's family and I have every right to contact them. I am pretty good at not saying negative things about my WW even when I describe her affair(you wouldn't know it by reading my posts on MB).

Just got back from church and I feel so recharged. I've been so negative over the Thanksgiving break on this situation.

Our church opens up the sanctuary for prayer on Wednesdays, and I've found the environment there to be so important for being able to focus when I'm praying, rather than getting tripped up in negatives about this situation that I replay in my mind. Very thankful for that. Find somewhere quiet, somewhere with solitude if you want to pray.

Since we have a lot of betrayed husbands on here right now I just wanted to repeat something I hear Dr. Harley advise BH's on his show which I feel is so important to the battle we're fighting:

We've got the inside track. He always reminds BHs that they have the inside track on their wife.

We've got the inside track on how to win our wives over. We've already done it. The APs are just boyfriends, our wives actually married us. Some of us are the father of our wife's children. Those are big important differences.

I think every newer BH thread I've read acknowledges that we've neglected our wives in some ways. Fix that. Take inventory of yourselves, and turn negatives into positives. If you're like me your wife probably gave you a list of them in an argument when she left you. Those are instructions on how to convince her she was wrong about you. A recipe for how to pleasantly surprise her. Don't haggle over how accurate you think those complaints are, that's a disrespectful judgement. Some of it is the fog anyways.

Each of us knows the things which are important and valued to our WWs. Some of these change while they're in the fog, but if you've been paying any attention during your marriage you should still be well armed to spoil her rotten and pursue her doggedly. These should be like your Plan A playlist. Keep hammering on them.

Spoil her, it will throw her off and cause conflict in the affair. Women don't cake eat, it will cause them to question their feelings that convinced them to leave you. Don't expect her to reciprocate any affection (my wife actually threw away a bouquet of flowers I bought her during our MC), that's not what you're after. You're trying to cause problems in the affair and headaches for the OM. He's been busy convincing your wife that you suck as a partner and now you're damaging his credibility and making your wife choose between rejecting thoughtful gifts and affection or cheating on her new boyfriend. She's only going to throw away so many of your gifts before she starts to want to enjoy them.

OM does not want your interference, that's why they get all bent out of shape about exposure. Now you get to play his game and you've got a huge head start and several years of good memories you can remind your wife of.

Anything that makes the OM uncomfortable makes me happy.

Maybe that will help encourage some of you. It encourages me.

If you've still got avenues to kill the affair such as exposure, do that first, but several of us are in limbo post exposure right now. These thoughts are for that situation.

Thanks Axe. That's good info.

My WW has gotten very angry when I do anything nice like I did when we were dating. Buying gifts or flowers. It has put me off of doing it. I haven't tried to send her caring messages in emails either. I know she would be angry and I worry that I would be pressuring her too much, for now I think I'm right (maybe not).

Do you think caring gestures should always be put forth or should I be wary of pushing too hard?

Well, really, someone's who's already won their wife back would be more qualified to answer that. I get a bit carried away here sometimes.

But just kind of looking at other threads and thinking out loud, I don't know if "pushing too hard" is actually a bad thing in Plan A.

This whole time I've been like you, thinking I should find a balance because my wife got angry or complained when I was too romantic with her (this was before she left). But really, this is fog babble.

I mean, I wouldn't pretend that she hasn't distanced herself from you. I'd just stick to classy gifts that she'll have difficulty refusing, and in areas that she loves. It IS an LB deposit. Flowers might be overkill for a lot of women but letters, chocolates, small personal gifts, gift cards, etc.

Think about how the APs do it....all under the radar stuff that's irresistible but easy to hide. You can play that game too, and as long as you don't get too emotionally invested in how she responds, I don't really see any reason that we shouldn't.

My bouquet of flowers also had some chocolates with it. My wife took the chocolates. She probably just didn't want me to think she wanted flowers from me, since she was adamant about not being in love with me. Food for thought, I could be wrong.

Her annoyance is a sign that you are having an impact on her. Keep up the caring gestures, do not push, and be sure that besides symbolic gestures of care, there is also real care there.

That makes a lot of sense, Axe and Markos. I have not been putting much effort into caring gestures because of her reactions, I didn't realize that her anger was just part of the fog. I will try to come up with some subtle things I can do. She has been asking me for a few favors lately and I have been more than happy to help her out. I know that she used to appreciate that sort of thing but, since the A, I sort of feel like she is just trying to use me. I think if I can provide subtle caring gestures it will let her know even more that we still work well together and, because of our son, we will always need each other.

Thanks guys. I didn't mean to hijack your thread Axe but I appreciate your input a lot.

You guys have inspired me to go get my wife a Christmas present.

This is pretty close what I thought about my WW. Except she wasn't victim of infidelity, but had call off a wedding due to a lying fiance. Ironically, we thought his lying problem was rooted in the fact that his mother left his father when he was growing up.

This is pretty much the rollercoaster I am on. One moment, I can the believe the old her will come back and even becoming someone like Prisca. The next I feel that she has become the same scumbag phony the OM is.

I was pretty upset about things when I wrote that.

Most of us can remember a person in high school who was great and then somehow hooked up with a piece of trash, and for a while could see no wrong in that person, or would defend anything about them. That's a WW with a trashy OM. They're blinded by their feelings for that person.

Don't let it get you down, the real her is still inside there. She's just high on OM right now.

I don't have any doubt OM coached my wife through filing restraining orders and such. He's probably had more than a few filed against him as someone who's been divorced multiple times and fathered a bunch of children with different women, whereas I've never heard the words "restraining order" come out of her mouth. As soon as he filed one after I confronted him it was obvious that it was his brain child, not my wife's.

She's mixed up. Keep Plan A'ing like you're trying to help the old her break out of the wayward shell.

Thanks for this. I needed it. I know that my real wife is in there somewhere. The lack of empathy and her other behavior is straight out of the fog playbook/manual. This is not the real her.

Yes, remember what Plan A is: providing the best extraordinary care you can, without immediate concern for having your needs met, but with the understanding that you will need your needs met later or you end up losing your love for her and can walk away satisfied. Love her and care for her no matter what she says and does. I just asked WW if there was anything I could do for her, she got an annoyed look on her face and told me, "Yeah. Leave me alone."

I didn't respond angry or disrespectful. Sure it hurt, but responding to that hurt isn't Plan A.

I get a lot of the "leave me alone" talk from my WW. But then she calls me later in the day. Its hard to know what to say sometimes. Occasionally, small caring comments are well received. Other times she gets angry and just tries to cause pain. It is good to remember plan A and stay above her negativity when she starts throwing it around.

I used a line on my WW today that I read on Justthe3ofus's post. It was something MelodyLane told him.

"Falling out of love is a problem to solve, not an excuse to have an affair and give up on your marriage."

This stopped my WW's ranting in its tracks. She recovered and gave me more fogbabble pretty quick but, I know it made her think for at least a second or two. She has consistently told me that she stopped loving me months or even years ago so I thought Melody's line was very appropriate.

I thought it might be helpful to others on the forum. Sometimes, when I am reading posts I forget who's post it is between all the BHs. It almost seems like we're all talking about the same woman.

It really does, doesn't it? Thank goodness we have this place to communicate and thank goodness for the Harleys!

I got one for my WW this past weekend. Felt good, I hope she'll appreciate it cone Christmas. If she doesnt, I still will feel good giving it out of love. Reaffirming that despite what she had done, I still care for her.

For me the weekend before Thanksgiving was the best weekend since D-Day. We seemed to actually click. Since then she has withdrawn a bit. There are many possible reasons including she is dreading her parents returning to town.
If she is in withdrawal, she won't reciprocate the simple "how was your day?". On a good day she will actually ask me questions about what I did. I was shocked when she did that recently.
This thread seem to good for discussing "tactics" in Plan A.

No kidding! She'll look at you after asking how's she feeling like you're the worse person on the planet, and say none of your business. Another day, or hour, she'll smile at a shared secret and apologize for the pain she's caused.

If she won't talk, that's only closing one avenue of care and affection towards her.

Before my WW left, I didn't realize there was an A going on and so most of our counseling was about how terrible of a husband I was and I was in a pretty aggressive Plan A (without knowing what it was) trying to convince her not to leave. This was before I found MB and uncovered the affair. So here's what experience I'd relate:

- Honeydo's - If you have a list of projects she wanted you to fix, do them. It will make an impression even if it feels fatalistic to do them (which it will), just do it and smile. Don't brag about it, just do it. Beware that she may pile them on you after she figures out that you're open for business here. Just don't do anything for her that facilitates the A or separation.

- Chores - Help with the dishes. Clean around the house. She has chores she probably hates doing...help her with them.

- Clean up - I already said cleaning, but I want to reiterate it. Women usually hate a messy house. Clean the house up. If this is a new concept for you, don't be stupid about it and move her stuff or throw it away. Co-ordinate this with her, she'll probably be happy to give you directions.

- Non-sexual touching - Figure out how to give a good scalp or foot massage. There's plenty of guides online to get you started. Pay attention to her and you'll get good at this quickly. Not every WW will want this, especially if this is a "new" thing for you (in which case she might see it as foreplay). My wife has always enjoyed these from me so even near the end when she was refusing to let me see her undress or say she loved me, she would ask for massages. And if not, I would offer and she nearly always accepted. If you can get away with this, it's a great LB deposit..

- Assistance with care - If you have kids or pets, get involved in their care. This is probably a chore and a LB withdrawal for your wife if you're not already helping her here. It may also be an EN you CAN fill but the OM cannot.

- Cook for her - Surely you have at least one or two dishes you can make, right? That she likes? Make 'em. If you're good at this sort of thing, try a new dish.

- Recreational companionship - She won't want to concede obvious acts of romance like dates, because she now has loyalty to OM. But she's not going to consider this that sort of thing even though it is an EN and will deposit in her LB. Make a list of her favorite recreational activities and get to it. Don't be too pushy about these kinds of dates, but be sneaky about them. Pleasant surprises are always good.

- Show yourself off - This one is trickier but if you know things that she loves about you, or for you to do, do those things. I play electric guitar (thus ax...a slang term for an electric guitar) and my wife has always loved it. Even in MC she brought this up as something she loved about me. I started playing at home more, and played/sang a few songs for her when I could squeeze it in.

- Acknowledge her favorites - You probably know a lot of her favorites. Favorite TV shows, video games, music, movies, etc. Don't go overboard here but if she's a Garth Brooks fan, put on some Garth Brooks at home when she's around. She's in a very self-centered frame of mind, if you do this smoothly (and not too obviously) it's to your advantage. You might know a whole lot more about her than OM in this area.

- Notes - There's something innately intimate to a spouse about their partner's handwriting. If you're only leaving love notes that will probably get old or annoying if she's insisting on being out of love with you, but even a friendly handwritten note about your whereabouts or schedule with some funny anecdotes or inside jokes you two share should put points on the board for you.

I did all of this and actually my wife's demeanor turned around from stone cold to friendly, texting me, joking, etc. It was getting suspicious about the affair and asking about OM that ran her out. She'd even been planning double dates with a couple we're friends with at church and planning our home meals weeks in advance before she left. I don't regret snooping because even with those positive signs she was still giving me mixed signals all over the place about whether she was going to leave me at the end of counseling, but anyhow...I do think it helped, and hopefully the ideas will help you.

If you're a project oriented person like me, put a task list together. Plan and organize, then execute.

Be prepared for her to blow you off or act uninterested. Check that item off your list, try something else next time. Don't be unnatural or pushy about this, be smooth.

Also be prepared for her to back out of things because she wants to protect her relationship with OM. My wife and I did recreational stuff or massages every morning before work for a couple weeks and she was loving it, but then all of a sudden she told me she needed "alone time" in the mornings and started backing out of commitments to do things at that time she was obviously enjoying. I snuck around the house and figured out this was because she was talking outside to OM on the phone during this time, and so our activities had been crowding him out. I'm going to guess he complained to her about this.

Last thing I'd say is doing all of this had a huge emotional toll on me as I started to figure out there was an A happening. I don't know how I would have held up this long doing it with her in the home because I was looking for her to reciprocate and mostly she didn't. With a different mindset, maybe I could have done a year of this. It's not all bad, we all should have been doing more of this stuff so think of it as self-improvement. Also time she's spending letting you fill her ENs is time she's not spending with/talking to OM, and it will cause conflict for them.

They are related, much as the monsters in the horror movies were related in the sense that they were all monsters, in pursuit of the one human left alive.
Seriously, what would happen if you took all these active wayward wives and placed them on an island with one man to pursue? Would they become cannibalistic and kill one another? I don't know.

They'd need a judge on the island to process all of the restraining orders before they could get that far.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!

Actually,
I shouldn't be so harsh and judgmental.
The Bible should be our standard and it clearly says that all have sinned and should repent and believe on Christ.

So, instead of such deep complaining I should be encouraging you to pray for your wife and continue a strong Plan A.

I'm 6 months older than Ax, and yesterday, I was a groomsman in a mutual friend's wedding. "T" is the man, and he and I were both 29 year old virgins, and he married his first girlfriend. I think it's incredible, and awesome for him.

Another groomsman has been married for 18 years and has 14 kids. I'm a single guy, never had a girlfriend and I still try to seek out Godly counsel from older men, and one thing that he hit upon several times is that it will be the principles that you both share that will keep you together, especially when the feeling ebbs and flows.

This is something that a lot of people in our generation don't consider because we've bought into the lie that once you fall into love, that's "The One", regardless of whether or not we have turned our brains on or not. Yes, there are feelings involved in 'love', but love is far more than a feeling. "Love" is not an action, but the commitment to put the other person before yourself. Many think that once fighting starts, and the feeling fades, it means that you made a mistake. It doesn't, it means that you simply need to remember your principles and the vows that you made to each other in front of God and your family/friends and continually strive to put your spouse first (or second, rather, after Jesus)... so ahead of yourself.

kaveman, what keeps marriages together is not a vow, but that feeling of love. Couples who are IN LOVE don't get divorced. All couples make vows, but that does not keep marriages together.

The vow should be to care for the other person for life, not to just stay married. The vow just to stay married, does not keep people together. Being IN LOVE keeps couples together.

I agree that you should study the wisdom of others, and Dr Harley has been studying what keeps marriages together for 40 years. If you want to read about his philosophy, start here: How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages