OC is a little over a year old and my husband has said from day 1 (even before I knew about OC) that he did not want to be involved. He has even disowned my MIL for contacting OW. He has never met OC and hasn't talked with OW since court in December and before that they only had 1 phone convo that I listened in on, but pays child support.

I'm currently pregnant and things between us have been on edge lately and we've been arguing a lot. We had been arguing since this weekend and yesterday he had one of our mutual friends that he works with talk with both me and him to try to gain some ground. It was beneficial. One of his complaints is in the middle of an argument I told him he's not a man (because of how he was treating his pregnant wife). The mutual friend told me that he was "crushed" that I would not trust him to be a father to OC and basically how could I say he's not a man but then expect him to not be in OC's life, since it wasn't her fault. This changed the entire argument for me, but I tried to stay away from it since it wasn't what the argument was about. I was crushed to hear someone else say this though. The mutual friend went on to tell me how even though I hate OW, I should let him be in OC's life since it's not the kids fault.

Just last week my husband sent me a text one day while I was at work after a doctors appt for our baby saying "I hope we have a girl, so we can piss this b*tch off" I told him I honestly hope we did too (we already have a boy and I want one of each and this is our last) and that he would have a "daddys little girl" to defend him when OC comes around one day. When I ask him to look on facebook sometimes just to see what she's up to, he doesn't even want to see pictures (we both deactivated our accounts a long time ago, but he still has her as a friend on his and can re-activate at any time to look). He always says he doesn't consider OC "his" and wants to stay out the picture so one day if OW meets someone he can be a real father to OC. His mother reached out to OW back in February and he hasn't talked to my MIL since despite her numerous attempts. He always told me this was his decision before I even knew, although he knew that I would not be ok with him having contact with OW because of the history with her (8 year on and off again sex) and he completely understood that and would never expect me to be ok with contact.

I asked him about it, although it was counterproductive because we were in the middle of arguing about something else. He told me he really didn't care about OC, he only brought it up to the mutual friend as an example of "being a man" vs "not being a man" since I told him he wasn't acting like one.

We had a heart to heart about our other issues last night...but this is really bothering me today.

I want to ask him about it tonight, but I'm kind of scared of his response. I know that he's trying to change a lot of things in his life for the better and to be a better man, and I love him for that. But with the history and lies that go with OW I cannot trust either of them. My husband is spiteful when he gets mad, and I feel like him and I could have a fight one day and he might go to her just to make me mad (even if they don't have sex). I don't worry about any one else but her. I honestly don't think I could deal with him wanting contact. If I had known he wanted it from the beginning I would have left so he could be a father to OC. I don't know how that would work and I know OW would try everything in her power to use it to try to pull him back in (he always said she was like a cat that just kept pulling him in even though he knew it was wrong). She's been trying to get him to leave me for her since we were in college.

But now I feel like the "bad guy" stopping him from being in this child's life if he wanted. When he first told me about OC I told him I couldn't deal with contact and he told me he didn't want it anyways and would never expect me to deal with it. The email OW wrote to him to inform him OC was his because the other guy she tested came back 0% she said "I know you said you wanted nothing to do with this situation and I don't expect you to" so it was clear he made that decision before I knew. I gave him the option to leave so he could have a relationship with her and he said he would never put ANYONE before me again and people would just have to understand that. When I first found out we were pregnant he first said he wanted another boy because he realized he doesn't really care for girls (he has a daughter from a previous relationship who lives in another state also, he stays in touch but they are not very close) and all he ever really wanted was boys, but then changed his mind and wanted a girl to make OW (and his other daughter's mother who he doesn't like either but tolerates) mad.

I'm just not sure how to handle this. Is he lying to me saying he doesn't care but then telling the mutual friend that he does. I don't know his exact words to her, only the words she told me which shocked me honestly. I told her what he has said to me and she said that he only said it because he knew I would feel some type of way if he wanted contact. But that's not what he told me. Could he just be trying to make himself look "good" to the mutual friend and not like he's being a "dead beat"? She also mentioned how he pays child support so that's the least he could do. But that's not even true. He was pissed when she took him to court and cussed her saying how dare she ask for help when she decided to do this on her own and even made her cry in court and tried to argue over the amount.

Him and I are on good terms now...I don't want to ruin that by bringing this up but it's really bothering me. I would feel duped if he all of a sudden wanted contact now (I wasn't expecting that at all until at least the OC is considerably older). I don't even know what contact would look like. He is starting a non profit organization and is always busy on the weekends and he doesn't really "do babies" (even with our son he didn't become close with him until he was like 2/3yo and that was living in the same household seeing him born and seeing him every single day)...and I refuse to take care of OC and explaining to my 5yo why out of no where he now has a little sister would be a nightmare. And there's no way he's going to OW's to "visit"...he even said before he would never expect me to be ok with that, that even if he was going to serve her papers or something that he knows it would never be ok.

I know I just need to talk to him...but I don't want him to lie to me and change his mind later. Everything he's showed/told me about OW/OC is that he wants no part of it and will deal with OC when she comes looking for him.

Just looking for some guidance. I know MB would recommend the Policy of Joint Agreement

No: MB would not seek his joint agreement on this. His not seeing OC is non-negotiable if your marriage is to survive.

I don't have long to post so I want to say the following:

1. You should not be fighting, ever. Fighting is ruining your marriage and making his relationship with OW seem attractive to him.

2. His "wanting to piss off OW" is a sign that he is still invested with her and is not succeeding in simply blocking her from his mind. He shouldn't want to have ANY effect on her. He should be working on making her dead to him. I suspect that there is already some form of contact with OC and I think this is through his FB account. He is probably looking at pictures of her, and reading OW's updates.

3. You shouldn't ask him how he feels about contacting OC because he is simply not allowed to do that while he is married to you. However,

4. You should spy on him. As I said, I suspect some form of contact.

5. You should move this thread to the forum Surviving an Affair. I don't think there is any particular benefit to you having the thread in the OC forum, but you will get much more attention in SaA. Click "notify" and ask for it to be moved.

Thank you for the response. I don't feel like he's in contact in anyway, but I could be wrong (I never felt like he was in contact with her the entire time he was to begin with). I do have a fake facebook account I use at work to look at her page on my own. I also feel like all attractiveness to the OW was lost when she had OC and didn't know who the father was (he did admit he was mad because he thought the periods of times they were sleeping together that he was the only one she was sleeping with, not sure why since she slept with every single one of my friends boyfriends in college) and didn't tell him until she was 5 months leaving him no choice to even voice the fact that he wanted an abortion (even though she wouldn't have gone for it).

I will move the thread. I'm always a little nervous posting outside of this forum because I know not everyone understands the delicate situation of OW/OC. Even the mutual friend couldn't understand not having contact, I know a lot of people who think no matter what a father should be in their child's life. It's hard to understand when you haven't been through this.

Disclaimer: I usually only post in the Pregnancy/Child Forum, but was suggested to move this to this forum. I understand not everyone understands the delicate situation that an Other Child (OC) brings about. Please read with that in mind...

OC is a little over a year old and my husband has said from day 1 (even before I knew about OC) that he did not want to be involved. He has even disowned my MIL for contacting OW. He has never met OC and hasn't talked with OW since court in December and before that they only had 1 phone convo that I listened in on, but pays child support.

I'm currently pregnant and things between us have been on edge lately and we've been arguing a lot. We had been arguing since this weekend and yesterday he had one of our mutual friends that he works with talk with both me and him to try to gain some ground. It was beneficial. One of his complaints is in the middle of an argument I told him he's not a man (because of how he was treating his pregnant wife). The mutual friend told me that he was "crushed" that I would not trust him to be a father to OC and basically how could I say he's not a man but then expect him to not be in OC's life, since it wasn't her fault. This changed the entire argument for me, but I tried to stay away from it since it wasn't what the argument was about. I was crushed to hear someone else say this though. The mutual friend went on to tell me how even though I hate OW, I should let him be in OC's life since it's not the kids fault.

Just last week my husband sent me a text one day while I was at work after a doctors appt for our baby saying "I hope we have a girl, so we can piss this b*tch off" I told him I honestly hope we did too (we already have a boy and I want one of each and this is our last) and that he would have a "daddys little girl" to defend him when OC comes around one day. When I ask him to look on facebook sometimes just to see what she's up to, he doesn't even want to see pictures (we both deactivated our accounts a long time ago, but he still has her as a friend on his and can re-activate at any time to look). He always says he doesn't consider OC "his" and wants to stay out the picture so one day if OW meets someone he can be a real father to OC. His mother reached out to OW back in February and he hasn't talked to my MIL since despite her numerous attempts. He always told me this was his decision before I even knew, although he knew that I would not be ok with him having contact with OW because of the history with her (8 year on and off again sex) and he completely understood that and would never expect me to be ok with contact.

I asked him about it, although it was counterproductive because we were in the middle of arguing about something else. He told me he really didn't care about OC, he only brought it up to the mutual friend as an example of "being a man" vs "not being a man" since I told him he wasn't acting like one.

We had a heart to heart about our other issues last night...but this is really bothering me today.

I want to ask him about it tonight, but I'm kind of scared of his response. I know that he's trying to change a lot of things in his life for the better and to be a better man, and I love him for that. But with the history and lies that go with OW I cannot trust either of them. My husband is spiteful when he gets mad, and I feel like him and I could have a fight one day and he might go to her just to make me mad (even if they don't have sex). I don't worry about any one else but her. I honestly don't think I could deal with him wanting contact. If I had known he wanted it from the beginning I would have left so he could be a father to OC. I don't know how that would work and I know OW would try everything in her power to use it to try to pull him back in (he always said she was like a cat that just kept pulling him in even though he knew it was wrong). She's been trying to get him to leave me for her since we were in college.

But now I feel like the "bad guy" stopping him from being in this child's life if he wanted. When he first told me about OC I told him I couldn't deal with contact and he told me he didn't want it anyways and would never expect me to deal with it. The email OW wrote to him to inform him OC was his because the other guy she tested came back 0% she said "I know you said you wanted nothing to do with this situation and I don't expect you to" so it was clear he made that decision before I knew. I gave him the option to leave so he could have a relationship with her and he said he would never put ANYONE before me again and people would just have to understand that. When I first found out we were pregnant he first said he wanted another boy because he realized he doesn't really care for girls (he has a daughter from a previous relationship who lives in another state also, he stays in touch but they are not very close) and all he ever really wanted was boys, but then changed his mind and wanted a girl to make OW (and his other daughter's mother who he doesn't like either but tolerates) mad.

I'm just not sure how to handle this. Is he lying to me saying he doesn't care but then telling the mutual friend that he does. I don't know his exact words to her, only the words she told me which shocked me honestly. I told her what he has said to me and she said that he only said it because he knew I would feel some type of way if he wanted contact. But that's not what he told me. Could he just be trying to make himself look "good" to the mutual friend and not like he's being a "dead beat"? She also mentioned how he pays child support so that's the least he could do. But that's not even true. He was pissed when she took him to court and cussed her saying how dare she ask for help when she decided to do this on her own and even made her cry in court and tried to argue over the amount.

Him and I are on good terms now...I don't want to ruin that by bringing this up but it's really bothering me. I would feel duped if he all of a sudden wanted contact now (I wasn't expecting that at all until at least the OC is considerably older). I don't even know what contact would look like. He is starting a non profit organization and is always busy on the weekends and he doesn't really "do babies" (even with our son he didn't become close with him until he was like 2/3yo and that was living in the same household seeing him born and seeing him every single day)...and I refuse to take care of OC and explaining to my 5yo why out of no where he now has a little sister would be a nightmare. And there's no way he's going to OW's to "visit"...he even said before he would never expect me to be ok with that, that even if he was going to serve her papers or something that he knows it would never be ok.

I know I just need to talk to him...but I don't want him to lie to me and change his mind later. Everything he's showed/told me about OW/OC is that he wants no part of it and will deal with OC when she comes looking for him.

Just looking for some guidance. I know MB would recommend the Policy of Joint Agreement

This was the response I got in the other forum From Sugar Cane (thank you Sugar Cane!!):

No: MB would not seek his joint agreement on this. His not seeing OC is non-negotiable if your marriage is to survive.

I don't have long to post so I want to say the following:

1. You should not be fighting, ever. Fighting is ruining your marriage and making his relationship with OW seem attractive to him.

2. His "wanting to piss off OW" is a sign that he is still invested with her and is not succeeding in simply blocking her from his mind. He shouldn't want to have ANY effect on her. He should be working on making her dead to him. I suspect that there is already some form of contact with OC and I think this is through his FB account. He is probably looking at pictures of her, and reading OW's updates.

3. You shouldn't ask him how he feels about contacting OC because he is simply not allowed to do that while he is married to you. However,

4. You should spy on him. As I said, I suspect some form of contact.

5. You should move this thread to the forum Surviving an Affair. I don't think there is any particular benefit to you having the thread in the OC forum, but you will get much more attention in SaA. Click "notify" and ask for it to be moved.

There is a much better understanding on the whole forum these days that the advice that is given must be in line with Dr Harley's MB advice. His advice in the OC situation is to have NC with OC. This is especially easy to achieve (from the point of view of practicalities)in a WH situation.

If any poster tries to guilt you into letting your H see OC, I think other posters will set them straight. Also, you can notify on any posts that you think are harassing or attacking you for following MB advice.

lilbit

Although it is important that for him to have contact with the OC. He can not have any contact to the OW even through FB. He should unfriend her and delete any contact information he has for her. All contact he has with the OC should go through you or someone you trust. The arrangements should be made through you and they should not have any contact.

The affair should be exposed including the OC to as many people as necessary to gain support. It should also be exposed to you son including the OC. Plans to expose should not be discussed with him and should happen as close together as possible.

Read this article if you have not.

Right! MB does not say you need joint agreement to NOT do something - only joint agreement to DO something. If you aren't both enthusiastic, doing it anyway will ultimately lead to the destruction of your marriage.

And you should not be enthusiastic about this. Over and over again Dr. Harley has emphasized that for a FWH to retain contact with an OC, even through an intermediary, will make it impossible to recover.

As SugarCane said, STOP FIGHTING!

Telling him he's not a man is disrespectful - so apologize for having said it, and don't ever say anything like that again. Furthermore, Dr. Harley's recommendation is that you not dwell on mistakes of the past, so he should not keep bringing this back up. No more needs to be said other than it was disrespectful and it won't happen again.

He also shouldn't be making comments about pissing off the OW - again, that is bringing up his own mistake of the past. It needs to be buried and you guys need to get away from all reminders, and he shouldn't bring it up again, nor should you.

I would have you both end the friendship with this person who is encouraging contact with the OC - that spells disaster, 100%. It is dangerous, horrible advice, and for a person to be advising it, they are not your friend.

The reason for not seeing the OC has nothing to do with trust and nothing to do with whether your husband is "not a man" so these shouldn't even be brought up. It's enough that it would bother you terribly for him to have the contact. For you to recover, reminders of the affairs have to be eliminated.

My thoughts are: Don't use DJ's like "not a man" - to address complaints. You aren't going to get anywhere with insults except encouraging him to bring in a third party to referee because one-on-one isn't safe.

Don't allow silly third parties to referee your fights - simply don't have them.

Certainly don't tell him to look up OW on FB. That's nuts.

Don't be afraid to have your thread moved. The belief that a wayward father should be in an OC's life no matter what is totally contradictory to Dr. Harley's recommendations, and so nobody should be posting it here on this board. If they do, report it to the moderators (if people like me haven't reported it first!). Nobody should be hassling you over this anywhere on the entire Marriage Builders forum.

Og good grief, this is exactly the kind of post that should not be made. It is not in accordance with Dr H's advice and will only serve to make lilbit feel pressured to allow contact with OC.

Dr H says that there should be NO CONTACT with OC. The OC does not need to know its father. He or she needs its mother to forget about her affair with the married man and find a good man to be a proper father to her child.

Contact with OC - even if it is possible to avoid all contact with OW, which it won't be - is tremendously hurtful and destructive to the marriage. This MB forum exists to support the marriage, not the OC's "rights".

Don't ask him to look at her on Facebook - he needs to avoid contact with any memory of her, as do you. Neither one of you should take any action to try to find out what she is up to - it will prevent recovery of your marriage!

Dr. Harley disagrees with this.

It is absolutely NOT important for him to contact with OC. It is the opposite of important.

He either needs his marriage or he needs contact with OC. He can't have both. lilbit was quite right when she told him he could be free to be OC's father but he could not remain married to her if he did that.

I'm sorry thought I read a lot of Dr. H's books and articles I didn't recall anytime that he said to have no contact with OC. I'm not doubting that may be true but I just need a reference point of it so I can understand why.

***EDIT***

Hi, lilbit

I posted several responses on your other thread.

He says it on the radio show all the time - the why is because it makes it impossible for the marriage to recover. But if you have questions, they ought to go on your own thread, not the thread of somebody seeking help, because we don't want to distract them.


As I said above, I'm going to notify the moderators when people post stuff like this, because it is contradictory to Dr. Harley's recommendations. It's fine that you have a differing personal opinion, but it's not okay to post it here.

Dr Harley makes it very clear that the marriage has to come first and every step should be taken to avoid contact with the OC. Those links and quotes are in the stickied threads at the top of the forum.

It is a good thing for ALL that the parent stay away forever; not just for a few years. They should not use the POJA to negotiate things that are destructive to the marriage. And staying in touch with an OC is extremely damaging to the marriage.

He doesn't have any contact with her on FB...they don't have any contact at all. His FB is deactivated, but sometimes we go on to see the damage his mother has caused. We actually prefer to keep OC a secret to as many people as possible, since it's rather embarrassing to explain and he's not in OC's life at all.

And I don't believe it's important for him to have contact with OC (and following MB, it's not a good idea either). According to everything he's ever told me it's not important to him either. I'm just confused now since the mutual friend seemed to think differently from her convo with him.

Sorry for any distractions my post may have caused and have removed the post.

Please be very careful about the advice that is posted on this forum by making sure it does not conflict with Dr. Harley's views. We ask for an extra level of caution and care due to the fragile state of marriages on this forum. Please contact the moderating staff if you have questions.

I know if he has contact with OW, we will never recover. I will never be able to trust that nothing would happen between them. He's told me he completely understands that and wouldn't expect me to think differently. I guess that's why I'm so confused by what our mutual friend said after her convo with him yesterday.

A reminder to posters to please familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders principles before posting on threads of people who are seeking help.

I didn't even know that - there are two radio shows in this link:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2445081#Post2445081

Ok, I will stop doing that. I do go on myself and look sometimes I guess I'm just curious. It's also to see if she has a new boyfriend yet...and secretly I go on to see if she's somehow suffering. I still harbor very harsh feelings towards her.

I don't see any reason to put forth the effort to resolve the confusion over what the friend said - the friend's advice is terrible.

Does your husband have private conversations alone with this friend? And is she a she?

Yes, he works with her. But I'm also close with her and we take our kids out together a lot. I'm in no way worried about her at all with my husband, so that's not the issue. She was really trying to help yesterday and this all came up because she was asking if him and I separated if I thought he would still be involved with the baby on the way so she asked how involved he was with his other kids as kind of a sign of how involved he'd still be. The original issue was over him not feeling appreciated enough about an award he had won over the weekend.

Sorry again. As I said before I've read and read a lot of his books. I have listen to almost every radio show for the last couple of months, I also listen to achieved shows, I have read all his principles and a lot of his articles and this is the first time I have hear this principle about not seeing the OC, but obviously it must be there and I just missed it. And I will do the job of finding that information, please do not focus on me.

thank you...we had a heart to heart last night and I apologized. My hormones have me on edge, but I know that is no excuse.

I never thought about his comment of the OW like that. Secretly it made me happy he wanted to see her suffer in some way (since I do too), but I understand she shouldn't even be a thought to either of us.

The friend is a co worker of his and her son and our son are close, so it will be very hard to cut her off. I don't think that is necessary, but if she brings it up again or keeps pushing contact then we will revisit it.

It just made me wonder if she took what he said differently, or if he really expressed to her that he wanted contact and was lying to me. That's why I'm questioning things now.

I'm concerned - it sounds like he discusses your marital issues privately. That is a reason to be greatly concerned, and quite a bit worried! He is not taking extraordinary precautions to avoid another affair - he should not be discussing his personal life with women.


There is a chapter in His Needs Her Needs on how he can get his emotional need for admiration met, but that will have to come after he starts doing admirable things like not discussing his marriage with other women.


Do you see how negatively his private conversations with her have impacted your emotions? No husband should be having private conversations about his conflicts with his wife, with another woman - but especially not a husband who has already had one affair! He is another affair just waiting to happen.

Has he even read the Surviving an Affair book?

thank you...I do realize my mistake now and apologized and promised not to say that again. My hormones have me all over the place, but I know it's not an excuse.

I know that he will not have another affair with her. I'm 110% positive of that. Mostly because he's in absolutely no way attracted to her. I was appreciative to have someone to talk to also to hear my side of what was going on, because sometimes when we argue we can go into circles with things.


I don't think I've read that one all the way through, I will have to read that because it's a reoccurring complaint from him and I often don't see how I'm not meeting his admiration needs until he explains in depth to me and it seems too late.


I do see now how negatively his conversation with her impacted my emotions. And if it weren't for her telling me that he was "crushed I didn't trust him to be a father to OC", none of these thoughts would be going through my head. I appreciated her input and help up until she started talking about OC, which had nothing to do with the argument in the first place. I honestly don't mind him discussing some things with her because she's also been through infidelity (although she's divorced) and understands my side of it so a lot of the time she helps him to see something he may not understand from me. But on this one, she she compared raising her ex's previous kids to this situation and it's just not the same. For example his daughter from a previous relationship (not OC) I have no problem with and embrace her when she comes to visit since she lives so far away. I actually look forward to her spending time with our son this summer.

As far as an affair with with this co worker I'm in no way threatened by her because I know he is in absolutely no way attracted to her (he sometimes jokes how he feels bad for her because she's rather ugly and she says it...but she really is a nice person. he's shallow when it comes to appearance)



he has not

lilbit420 - people become attractive to each other when they make love bank deposits. And having conversations about personal issues makes love bank deposits. This is extremely dangerous. It's no protection that he's "not attracted to her," because that is completely changeable.

And he hasn't even read the book Surviving an Affair? I don't think there are a lot of chances for recovery here - he needs to be getting educated on how affairs happen, and taking extraordinary precautions, or you are in for a terrible emotional rollercoaster.

He is still in the road playing chicken. He is probably doing so with every woman he knows, including some that he finds more attractive.


lilbit, there is a program here on this site for learning how to stop arguing and actually resolve your conflicts. You don't need to be letting him take this terrible risk - Steve Harley once commented to me that I needed to "embark on a program of education" about Marriage Builders so I could put this information to work in my marriage. I think you guys need to do the same. He can't possibly be following the recovery program if he hasn't read the recovery program, and you guys need to read Love Busters and put it into practice - this is your manual for how to learn to stop arguing.


He should be the one to read it if he wants to get this need met. It is going to require action on his part. Dr. Harley usually counsels on this emotional need last, after all the others are taken care of, and there is an important reason for that.


He is telling her things that he does not say to you. That is at least one secret they held together for awhile that you were not privy to.

Openness and honesty is an emotional need - he should be providing radical honesty to his wife, not her.

Have you read this?
Complain about your spouse TO your spouse
More importantly, has your husband read it? He needs to step up to the plate here and start learning and doing these things.


Whether you mind or not, it is extremely dangerous. There are women who don't mind their husbands looking at porn, swinging with other women, getting drunk, taking drugs, or molesting their children - that doesn't mean it is a good idea! Dr. Harley would say it is ALWAYS a bad idea for married people to be having personal conversations with people of the opposite sex. Always.

Many times people don't mind their spouse doing something only because they don't realize how risky it is.


We can teach you to do that yourself. Of course, it won't do a lot of good if he's not learning the Marriage Builders plan of recovery. Does he know what the Policy of Joint Agreement is? That will resolve most of your conflicts - he doesn't have to understand your feelings all the time, but he does have to agree to not do anything unless you are enthusiastic about it. You shouldn't have to debate your feelings with him or bring in a third party to make your case, if he's actually following the program.


See what damage it did having her uneducated opinion interjected into your marital conflict?\


Almost all affairs happen with someone who the spouse is in now way threatened by.


Have you ever read that people affair down? Most affairs happen with unattractive people. Because they have fun together, have personal conversations together, make love bank deposits, and fall in love.


When is he going to, and how long are you going to let him drag his feet on it?

I can't tell you how horrified to hear this report of their conversation. This is really frightening.

As markos said, your H should not be talking to her about marital (or extra-marital) issues at all; really he should not have any conversations about any subject that is either deep, or the conversation lengthy. Have you read Surviving an Affair? Have you read how Sue became involved with Greg, over being on the committee to restore the lake in their community? Their conversations were not deep or personal at first, but they bonded over a shared issue. Conversation satisfies ENs on a level that most of us do not realise. And haven't you ever read the many stories on this forum about WH having affairs with women who not their typical crush - who are overweight and unattractive, with missing teeth and numerous piercings?

Indeed, your H has already had an affair; how did he become involved with OW? Did they just jump into bed together, or did they talk a few times first?

And as for this co-worker dispassionately discussing the terrible prospect that you and your H might split up�I'd be so boiling mad if I heard that any woman had EVER discussed such a thing with my H.

I don't think you have any idea how serious a problem that relationship already is for your marriage.

lilbit, I'm sorry to say that I think you need to learn a lot more about MB. You argue with your H, you check OW's FB, you haven't put the affair to rest and your H talks about OC with another woman. How did she even learn about OC, if he is so ashamed to have people know about her?

I think your marriage is really in trouble and I suggest you read ALL the materials available free on this website, as well as the book Surviving an Affair, and that you listen to the radio show every day without fail.

thank you for opening my eyes to some things I didn't really see...I need to do more reading because I didn't realize all this. I never thought of her as any type of competition or threat, but now reading what others are saying and what I have read of MB so far, I see she could be.

Other than checking her FB...I thought I had put the affair to rest. We hadn't talked about it since we had to disown my MIL for contacting OW until the co-worker brought it up. She didn't know he didn't have contact with OC until yesterday, but knew of OC because she has told him how her ex husband cheated on her and before their marriage and after their divorce went on to have a lot more kids.

As far as his affair yes he did just jump in the bed with her...well actually closet. It started in college, she was the girl that wanted to sleep with anyone's boyfriend she could. Their first encounter was in a closet at a party where she gave him oral sex...no conversations first. He then used her for that on and off for almost 8 years.

thank you...I need to review a lot of MB principals. I never realized how much of a danger to my marriage this could be. I don't know why.

I would suggest reading these:

How do Affairs Begin?

Anatomy of Adultery

chapter 13 of His Needs, Her Needs


When a woman comes to him giving personal details about his life, that doesn't mean he should respond by giving personal details about his life. Instead, he should end the conversation, and tell you about it.

thank you so much...I'm going to read those now

You are not alone. 60% of marriages will experience at least one affair. One main reason for it is that most people don't know these things. Only 20% of marriages stay together for life and are happy and fulfilling - mostly we live in a bad marriage culture.

With so much temptation and access to temptation these days, I can see why. Back when my grand parents were married there was no internet to connect them to others and not a lot of women in the work place so men were surrounded by men and not tempted by their female co workers. I often wish we lived in simpler times, it's hard to navigate this high tech life. Although it has it's advantages too.

Thank you again

What you described above is exactly how affairs begin. Your husband has very inappropriate boundaries around women and claiming to not be attracted to her is a HUGE RED FLAG. That means that neither of you are aware of how affairs begin. Affairs start just way with personal, intimate conversation. If you don't believe me, just go look at the thousands of cases over on the SAA forum.

I would make a rule that your husband and you never discuss the affair again. This "friend" should be asked to never discuss it again too. It is none of her business and only brings the most horrible tragedy of the past into the present.

I concur with this. My blood boiled when I read this. How DARE she make such a comment about your private, personal life? I notice how easy it is for buttinskis to have such grand sounding, noble "opinions" about other peoples lives when it is not their ox getting gored.

Oh my goodness lil, he is discussing his marriage and his personal feelings about an oc with a WOMAN!!!!!!!!

You're OK with it? Are you freaking kidding me?

I also knew my good friend the OW, who I had known since childhood was "genuinely trying to help". She was too.

She had just been widowed, losing the man who had been my husband's best friend since childhood. We had always been a quartet, and I saw no danger in the three of us remaining friends after DF's death. I trusted her with my life.

There wouldn't have been any danger either if she'd kept her nose out of our business instead of stepping right in the middle of the marriage. She was lonely and enjoyed fixing our problems. It brought her closer to us.

Well, closer to me at least initially. With DH, they fell in love.

Suddenly she was critical of everything I did and supportive of everything he wanted.

PoJA was a nightmare - it was no longer what suited us two, but what did solution did the THREE of us vote for? Guess what, it was always two against one.



The OW in my case was that friend you sorta feel sorry for because she is not pretty. I'll always remember when we went shopping for my wedding dress how bitterly jealous she got over the fact they had to take in the waist to tiny proportions. She had always struggled with her weight.

That's why I never felt threatened when he went round to her house to help out. It's not like he was dropping by on a supermodel. He too, had a very high PA need

I'm sure that's why he also felt safe to open his lovebank around her. He won't have expected to feel anything for her. He let down his guard because she wasn't hot.

They'd had ample opportunity to date as teenagers. They had never had any interest in each other at all. She thought he was annoying with boring interests (very different IQ's) and he thought she was pudgy and ugly. He was almost embarrassed for his friend when they got engaged, though he liked her well enough.

Concerns like how attractive and how suitable only occur to SINGLE people who are shopping for a mate. They aren't considerations to married people who blindly stumble onto cheap admiration and unstinting support from someone who is always agreeable.

That doesn't matter in affairs. Affairs don't take place with suitable people. They always take place with the most UNsuitable person, and that's why 95pc don't last.

I'm astonished you don't know this stuff after already surviving an affair.

Usually when two people are just STARTING to talk about personal stuff, it remains a secret to the BS. The fact they are being so bold tells me this has been going on a while.

The OW did not start lobbying me on his behalf until after the A took root, until after feelings started to develop. Usually it was to make trouble or set me up.

Normal women's responses to private revelations:

"Well, that is between you and your wife! It isn't my business at all!"

Low boundary woman's response:

"Oh really? Tell me more so we can be closer"

Deep in an Affair OW's response:

"You poor darling. Enough is enough. I am going to tell her she is so wrong."

The fact that she is comparing OC with your children and lumping them all in the same basket for 'when you separate' is a MASSIVE red flag.

Do snoop, and quickly too.

How come you and your child are so close to HIS co-worker?

Was that his idea that you two become friends?

I also found it odd in the extreme that as a BW herself she is sympathetic to the child of an OW. Particularly since that isn't even historically your H's opinion.

You and your H were in enthusiastic agreement on the OC until she stuck her big hooter in. A place ordinary people would fear to tread because it is the hot button issue in a marriage. Most people would mind their own beeswax.

Why is she so keen to make trouble?


None of it adds up.

Stock phrases for you whenever you are confronted by your "friend":

1. "DH and I have decided not to talk about our marriage to outsiders any more. He told me yesterday not to. When it is just us two we always agree".

2. "How's it going with us? This pregnancy is giving me so much energy I can't keep my hands off DH. Last night we were making out like teenagers. He's loving it!" (Most especially if this is not true)

3. "How's it going with us? Wonderful. Last night he told me I was the most beautiful woman in the world and he is so glad he doesn't have a short/fat/ugly wife! He said I make him proud. Isn't he silly?"

Do this while you snoop.

Why?

You don't know why do you? He provoked you into a fight so he could get some derogatory comment off you like "not a man" for the way he was treating you.

He didn't mention any real complaint to his friend. There's so few complaints he can make to this potential OW, he invented one - the OC. You know he doesn't really care about the OC and that is the ONLY complaint this new OW has been able to manufacture to cause trouble.

He's making complaints about a marriage with which he has no complaints. She is stomping around where angels fear to tread.

I am very, very concerned about this woman honey.

Can you move lilbit?

Lill, how are you doing?

I'm sorry lilbit that this is the character your DH has. Wow. And an affair already, and two out of wedlock kids. I hope everything works out okay for you. That all would make me a nervous wreck.