Dealan-de - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Hi Dealan, this is not a post to call you out on your actions or anything, but I've read your posts a while back and was reading the latest and I couldn't get you out of my head, well I mean what you've been through and what you've put up with.

2 OC, my goodness. Why in the world did you not walk away from the second? And how is your marriage going now. I mean if he got away with it the second time, why in the world would you think he wouldn't do it again? Let me reiterate something you wrote on a previous post

"On the other hand, I'm def. NOT the person I thought I was. I've learned a TON about myself and other people through all this. Everyone's breaking point is different. See? I've broken into a gagillion/magillion pieces, and I've yet to shatter. Someone else (God forbid) might've thrown in the towel a long time ago."

I can understand what you mean when you say you've been broken into a million pieces, so have I (in the past) and after awhile after you've hurt so much after awhile it doesn't even hurt anymore right. But that doesn't mean you should keep subjecting yourself to this. I'm sure it's not healthy for you, or (if) your children. In all honesty. I can't really look at you as a strong courageous woman because of this, I see you more as being a doormat (sorry if sounds harsh, I picked that word up from here) I mean your husband is not made of gold, you can find love again. Thanks for reading.

Xangel,

I was wondering if you've ever been married?

XAX,

I am not Kimmy, but I read your post and wanted to respond. I can see from your sig line that you are only 22. The same age I was when my first child was born. I am now 43 and have been M'd for 13 years. I had my first child out of wedlock. I had two more children with my H after I married him 8 years after my ds was born. I thought at your age I was "mature" and able to handle life. What have I learned in the past 20+ years? That we continue to grow and mature as we age and accumulate experience. The difference between a woman in her 30's or 40's and a woman in her 20's is vast. I do not know you and do not claim to know how mature you are, but I can tell you from experience that you don't know what you can overcome until you are faced with it. My H had two A's and I had one. The 2nd A of my H has produced a pregnancy. Do I still love my H? You betcha. Do I still like who he is? Yes, no doubt. His actions during these periods of time do not define the man he is. We are all sinners, we are all weak. Our strength must come from the Lord, not from ourselves. Kimmy is a far better person than many for her ability to forgive and do what is right for herself and her children.

By the way this is a marriage building site. Are you seeking information or self growth before you decide to marry? Just curious.

God bless you in your journey of life.

No star fish I have not. I was supposed to get married to my ex, but I was not going to marry a philandering loser.

Back to your hidden point. One does not have to be married or neccesarily have to be in a given situation to understand what's right and what's wrong, or be able to understand.

Well faithful follwer I am seeking both. I love to learn. These days I guess I have really just been trying to figure out the ways of the world. I don't come as often to this board since it scares me because I'm afraid this is what I have to look forwad to one day when I do get married. I used to post a little bit back then. It was Pepperband that really gave me the wake up call to drop my loser ex. But anyhow. Yes I believe in forgiveness, but sometimes enough is enough. Maybe God has better plans for her, in which she is not going to find and be the best Dealen she can be as long as she has to deal with all the issues that surround having a philandering husband who has 2 OC. I mean how many of you guys would actually put up with more than one OC.

XAX,

I agree that I would not recommend you marry someone that cheated on you already. Is he involved in your DD's life? Would I put up with a 2nd OC? I'd like to think I would not but unless I am in those shoes I have learned that I truly cannot know what I would do.

xangel--

I can say this much. I think it is GREAT that you cut your losses and moved on.

I am glad to see at your age you are mature enough to realize you DON'T need that in your life and you are young enough to start over again and again if you'd like to!!! That is SO precious- the young 20's. I'd HATE to have started this aweful journey I've been on at your age. I was LIVIN IT UP HEAVILY and LOVING life for years beyond your age, even. Thank goodness!! LOL!

I think it is a good thing you are evaluating these issues NOW- and you ARE seeing this side of the coin-- seeing where a marriage in crises can lead a couple.. seeing how vulnerable and fragile relationships can be when you do not choose well, or do not take extreme care to PREVENT this garbage. I know I was HIGHLY unprepared for marriage even at 28 when I married. I thought I knew it all but had NO CLUE what I was getting into, really!

YES I love my husband and my family. NO I don't advocate divorce... but I don't take offense to your position in this thread at all. I often feel just as stupid as you may think we all look here!!

But low and behold.. myself and many others have survived it (one OC for me, thank you!!)... and we are a better and stronger/happier couple than ever. The thing is--- sometimes in life you are thrown SUCH a curve ball that it ACTUALLY after all the pain...HELPS you to realize how selfish you were in ways.... to become more tollerant of the world and of the unfairness in it! It can also bring you to a point of actually APPRECIATING so much more than you ever would have... if you were spared this terrible pain.

Never, in a million years did any of us think we would "put up with" or stay after being cheated on, much less with an OC-or 2 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Yes 2 OC's are more than anyone should EVER have to endure-- and me- h*ll no way - I'd definitely be done. BUT we ALL do many things that we cannot believe... for the bigger picture of our family and our love for the raw specimen called MEN... lol

Please keep learning all you can, I agree with you very much in many ways in what you are saying, and I LOVE to see a strong, intelligent woman like yourself protecting herself, her future, etc. THAT is AWESOME. I was JUST like you-- and it can happen to the best of us, so just be careful of what you believe cannot ever be, thats all.

HUGS, Gio

XAX,

I was only going to recommend Dr. H's book "Owners, Renters and Freeloaders"....thought it might be a great resource if you were still unmarried.

I see from post, that you're a bit defensive about me asking if you are married. You mention this:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />One does not have to be married or neccesarily have to be in a given situation to understand what's right and what's wrong, or be able to understand. <hr /></blockquote>No, I don't have to black to understand prejudice...that's for certain. But I have to be black to truly feel it. The dynamics of living together and being married are not at all the same...that's one reason I was thinking that particular book would be great for you, because it will help you to perhaps pick a better partner and plan for a better future. The dynamics of being with one man for a couple of years is completely different than being married for 10 or 20 years. Your lives are intertwined in ways you can't even fathom.

Do you think after what these ladies have been through that they care if some inexperienced unwed mother shows up and doesn't offer respect? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> They have so much on their plates...and so many folks who need them, that they don't have time to worry about the opinion of someone who can't possibly have any idea how much pain they have suffered.

I'm always amazed how folks who make such incredibly bad choices, criticize the choices of others. Why does this happen? I looked at your previous posts...and found this synopsis of the last few years. None of us have perfect lives, make perfect choices....or choices that are understandable to anyone else sometimes. You are young, inexperienced and incapable of understanding the choices of the women here. I understand your frustration at seeing unfair treatment and wondering why women stay with repeat cheaters....but considering your own history....do you really think you're in a position question the choices of anyone else? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Oct 2001-me and bf meet
Nov 2001-start planning baby
Jan 2002-move in together
Feb 2002-I'm pregnant [Smile]
April 2002-goes to the movies with a girl( I find out later) doesnt turn into affair
July 2002-something fishy going on at his job with co worker (nothing physical but still) also having other problems fights-I move back with parents-he wth his mom. We make up but still live apart.
Nov 2002-Baby born [Big Grin]
Feb 2003-still living apart, been getting along, he starts acting hostile with me, bad attitudes. Find out he's been dating a girl he met internet. We break up. I become OW 2 weeks later (crazy situation, did it to spite the girl (hate her)she's a no good
Oct 2003-He finally gets rid of her. We officially back together (hung in there for family)
Feb 2004- we move back in together (still problems
many times I kick him out comes crawling back 1 or 2 days later.
April 2004- discover him about to get in the shower with an old ex of his... [Eek!] (I'm still traumatized) kick him out thought this was the last straw..still weak..we get back together
July 2004-break lease move back in with parents, actually trusting him more now that we are apart, but somehow he's still been sneakin in phone calls to last year biatch... [Roll Eyes] <hr /></blockquote>XAX....I'm sure at other times, you can be a nice young woman, but this post makes you sound not only silly and hypocritical...but insensitive and mean.

Thank you Gio that was a nice post.

I am glad to see at your age you are mature enough to realize you DON'T need that in your life and you are young enough to start over again and again if you'd like to!!! That is SO precious- the young 20's. I'd HATE to have started this aweful journey I've been on at your age. I was LIVIN IT UP HEAVILY and LOVING life for years beyond your age, even. Thank goodness!! LOL!

I found this statement a bit funny, don't feel bad that i went through all this crap now, I am so grateful I did now rather than being like in my 40's and not knowing how to deal. You see this way I have the rest of my life to know what to watch out for, or know that I can and will get over it, if heartbreak were to come again. I know I'm only 22 and my views on stuff will probably change, but I'm glad I have God in my life to guide me as well. I made some mistakes in the past as well, I took my ex back more than once, hoping he would change so I could have my happy little family. I cried all the time miserable with my ex because I couldn't trust him. But I faitfully prayed to God to help me, and gradually after awhile he did. He enabled me to let my ex go, and now I'm single and happier than I have been in years. I also understand it's a process to find happiness again, and some find it sooner than others.

Why thank you Starfish for throwing those horrible memories in my face, but I got my wake up call thank you very much. I look back now and feel like a fool believe me, and I don't know waht I was thinking. I wish I would of walked the first time, but that's all over for me now. Like I said I'm happier than ever now, that is part of the reason why I posted today, because some men never change. I let him get away with it once and look what happened. I know I made some poor choices, but in my heart I didn't want anything bad, I just wanted to have my family together. I've suffered enough for my mistakes believe me.

You know believe it or not, reading all that I feel like crying right now here at my desk. I was such a fool. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> But at least I put and end to it.

d

[ November 28, 2004, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]

XX

I have two OC from my affair. My H took these two children in as his own. As for why he stood by my side I don't know. I do the know the affair was over before I found out I was pregnant with the 2nd. My H considers these two children as his own and legally they are his.

On the other hand my H also has an Oc.

H and I made vows. We both broke some of those vows. We went through some really horrible times. We decieded to stick it out. All of this was 4+ yrs ago. We are stronger than ever now thanking God that we didn't split up.

Starfish is really just trying to do some predamage control for some other members, right Star? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think it is all in the way you write a post or how you come across. Now, of course, it is easy for ME to give you some clear and non-angry responses, but Kimmy may not! LOL. Around here, emotions run so high that things are not always taken so well when they dont know you well, or when they feel you are judging them for being something they are not, and I'm sure Kimmy does not feel she is a doormat-- know what I mean. Be careful of how you post is all.

I dont think you have anything to cry about right now! Its GREAT that you are PROTECTING yourself and your interests.. psssft who cares if you made these easily made mistakes at 21 years old-- no big deal. You have your little one now, who you wanted, and you are strong and smart, obviously. You have a HUGE duty to your child to protect him or her from these types of "men" who will destroy, destroy, destroy, if you let them! I became an unwed mother myself at age 18 and I was VERY strong and cautious of who my son came into contact with -- and about how he saw me treated-- along with letting him see me happy and thriving! Keep that up now--and dont look at your EASILY fixed mistakes of the past. Now- marrying the guy and spending (wasting) years of your young life with him--THAT is what you'd really be sad about!

XAX,

It was not my intent to bring up old wounds, I'm sorry...really. And I'm very happy that you are trying to build a better future...which WAS the reason for my first question. But when you make a post to a particular person and make judgements about their choices....don't you think folks will look up your choices too? That's only reasonable. My point is not to make you feel bad, but I don't like you doing the same to kimmy either. We are all struggling to find our way in a sometimes cruel world. Your choices, my choices, kimmy's....we are each entitled to our autonomy, dignity and humanity....and our choices.

This isn't about right and wrong. What's right for you could be very very wrong for someone else. Aren't there good reasons you made bad choices? Youth, fear, etc. Do you know kimmy well enough to understand her reasons? I'm just begging you for a little empathy Angel. I'm just asking for you to recognize that at 22 you might still not "get" all of this yet.

You say you want to learn....well that is a WORTHY, fabulous endeavor. Stay, learn and make this an internal journey worth taking rather than an effort to pile another burden on someone who's already carrying enough pain and betrayal. What do you truly gain by telling kimmy you can't respect her? What does she gain? Nothing....that's what.

What if instead of telling her you don't respect her you did this instead?

Kimmy, can I ask why you stay with someone who keeps cheating?

or

Kimmy, I keep thinking of you. It makes me feel bad for you that your husband has done this twice...how do you cope? I'm angry for you.

THEN....you learn something. THEN you show compassion an care. When you use *I* statements instead of *you* statements...you have the ability to share and learn. You also have the opportunity share what you've learned instead of alienating people....and that may be even better.

but Angel.. please let me give you one word of advice..

DO NOT PLAN BABIES WITH MEN YOU HAVE ONLY KNOWN ONE MONTH!! lol I bet you know that now, right?!

Ackk Gio....don't remind me. Lord what was I thinking. I fell head over heels with a guy who fed me nothing but lies. To think at that time I was a good girl, working two jobs, in college, catholic family and I planned on having a baby. Ok yes we all make poor choices. Poor poor choice, but now I have my little angel who I wouldn't trade in the world.

Starfish your right. I regretted putting the doormat word as soon as I hit the post button. Kimmy most likely will take offense. I worded it all wrong, but I suppose it is not fair of me to point out others choices just becaue I have learned from mine already, and perhaps they have not gotten there yet. It took me a while as well, and everyone will get there in there own time. I just really wondered what is in Kimmy head, because I used to post here and some of the woman here were telling me oh no he is never going to change and yada yada. So that and through the experience, I got the notion that most of these philanderes aren't going to change.

XAX,

I really do understand, and you've had a really hard time too. I sometimes read stories here and think similar thoughts "my god, what makes people stay?" (and I have no doubt that people have thought the same thing reading my story <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) And yet, I'm not that person, married to that man, looking into the eyes of those children, or dealing with an one particular OW.

Hopefully, if kimmy reads this whole thread, she'll appreciate the softening and understanding you've expressed and respect your journey as well as hers....I think she will...she is a caring person. We really can learn from each other and no matter the age, sex, experience...all have something to share. I'm not minimizing the qualities of youth and energy.....thank you so very much for replying. I appreciate it.

Oh, and I was serious about that book...I gave it to my daughter who was considering living with her boyfriend. She said it really helped open her eyes about the emotional commitment and dynamics of different kinds of relationships. You deserve better....most of us deserve better....<sigh> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I had a thought...

Look how forgiving and tolerant Kimmey is. WAY more tolerant than I can be.

If Kimmey can "forgive her husband", for creating two OC in affairs and for possibly having a current ongoing affair, she can forgive anything!

She is forgiving, tolerant of her husband's failings, accepting of him when he slips and sleeps with other women, and understanding of his weaknesses with having sex with other woman.

If she can forgive these terrible multiple acts of cheating by her husband "against her personally" (and the other kids he created outside the marriage) then a little wrong "word" said on a message board by somebody will be forgiven by her instantly and quickly.

(If she is the kind of woman I think she is, forgiving, tolerant, accepting, and super understanding!)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by XangelX:
 It was Pepperband that really gave me the wake up call to drop my loser ex. <hr /></blockquote>Oh good God! Did I actually call him "loser"??? I don't remember doing that!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Please forgive me if I did.

The book Star*fish is recommending is going to be a really good one for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It will help you spot any man who is a "keeper" ... and also help you spot any man who is a "non-keeper" early in the dating process ... before too much damage is done.

Glad you are still reading and posting.

Stay well. And keep your standards HIGH

Pep

What is the book she recommended? I don't want to go back through all the post to look........sorry I'm lazy tonight.

Thanks Pepperband, but no need to apologize, he really was a loser. No need to sugarcoat those lying cheating ba*#**....I Don't think I need the book, believe me I have learned from my mistakes,plus that was the first loser I had ever dated, they were usually good guys. I have since been dating and if I even think they don't measure up to my standards, I'll drop them like a bad habit.

Oh and Delean I apologize for the way I worded my first post, it was a bit insensitive. I just know how miserable I was choosing to stay with my ex after he cheated on me. I can't understand why you choose to deal with two oc so I wonder how you cope.

(((sigh))) I just love defending myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No worries, xAx. Do not think I've asked the same questions of myself.

First off: 1 ongoing a. Not a series of a's. There is a difference in the nature of the sin. Not a lot of difference in the grander scheme of life, but it's still a difference.

My dwh is a broken person. No, I don't think I can fix him, but he is in a process to fix himself. Will he? I dunno. Do I owe it to 7 years of a HAPPY marriage (and 3 years of confusion on my part) to stay to see? I think so. Do I owe it to ALL the children to try. Yes. I think so. Do I have a breaking point?...dern skippy, and it gets closer sometimes - today, it's farther away than it was 2 weeks ago.

You've no idea the abilities or capacities of yourself till put in a position to prove them. I hope to God no one has to prove them, but they are there.

CM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> for why he stood by my side I don't know. <hr /></blockquote>It's unfathomnable, no? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Do not question it. It is like asking, "Why is space a vaccum?" There is no good, easy answer till you meet with God. It just is.

There are things you learn from this...things you are taught by going through life. Whether or not you choose to learn from them or cry "woe is me" is purely up to you. The first is, don't make all encompassing statements, it'll only go badly to prove you wrong - ie:

1. That ship is unsinkable
2. The world is flat
3. It'll never snow here (said in 1988 in Austin, TX - Dec. 1989 - SNOW - UGH!)
4. I'd never stay if he____ (fill in the blank)

Yes, I hurt....dwh is in a horrible amount of pain (of his own making). If he learns from this, maybe he'll be a better person (as am I) for it. I made vows to God and to him and to myself to try. It is hard. It is MY path, not yours - unless your feet are upon the same path, or you have some kind of training that might help me, your words hold no real meaning because MY path is as unfathomnable for you as yours is to me...you do have my support for your choices, I only expect the same in return.

Yes, your first post was a little lambasting, but I thank you for your apology...tho unnecessary. I am used to the double takes and, "say whats???" about my life's story. I am also very innured to the, "If it were me, I'd have booted his butt to the curb." The only real answers to your queries and comments are, "Thank God it's not you - right now, thank Him. It's harder than you even dare to imagine, but there are things/reasons to stay that make it more than worthwhile."

Nio is my hearts own true love. Is there someone else out there that could be? Probably (I'm totally nummy - lmao). But there are more good reasons to stay with him than to leave (for right now...ask me again in 2 weeks how I feel - this journey is nothing, if not curvy and trecherous).

- Kimmy

I understand we should not judge a person until we've walked a mile in their shoes, but I have tried the shoe on and it really sucks. I feel for you Dealen-de I really do, but honestly the path ecord your husband has whether he has had an affair with one or 7 OW I still don't see too much hope. Maybe I'm just being negative, but obviously I don't carry much hope for the male race lol. I guess good luck with your Marriagebuilding, but don't give it too long, don't waste away your life in hope that he's going to change. Not that your life is miserable now, but I'm sure it could be so much better with that heavy burden off your shoulders. Just keep praying, God will show you what he has in store for you and what he wants for you.

Who's to say it'd be better without him?

There are no gimmies in life. None. The only true gimmie is the Word. I count on no man. My only faith is just that, faith.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />don't waste away your life in hope that he's going to change. <hr /></blockquote>That is subjective. Hope is not. You may see it as a waste, I may see it as something more to be learned...about Nio, about me, but nothing is lost in the learning. Time....time well spent in learning is never wasted, imo.

Nio was not like this before he broke. CHANGE happened. If it happened once, who's to say it won't again? It's up to him, no? CHANGE and reactions to changes happen no matter what....it can be good, it can be bad, but nothing is ever the same. I am not the same as the day I took my vows (both times - cute, loving story Nio and I have, really), who's to say that he won't look at me and my changes and not be happy with them?

Doormat? (snort) I take less offense to that and more offense to the wasting time comment...hehe! (I'm really not offended. The only offensive question is the one unasked)

Looking back at my life, I will honestly be able to say I gave it my best and my all.......the ball is squarely in his court now. We will see.

There is too much too be lost right now by walking away. If the scale tips the other way, who knows what I'll do. The pain is worth the gain right now. Really and truly. If the converse was true, I'd have a way different story.

My new fav quote: The juice is worth the squeeze.

My gooodness woman you see everything as roses don't you? I used to be like that too, until my roses were stomped on.

.......the ball is squarely in his court now. We will see.

Why is it up to him, he's the one who messed up, you call the shots.

You say Nio is hurting now, was he hurting after the first OC as well, cause now there is two. So let me get this straight you think he's finally learning his lesson right? Sorry I am agitated at your husband, not you. It seems as though we as people sometimes mistake kindness for weakness hmm. I know in MB your not supposed to LB, but has your husband seen your mean bone yet? Does he know that dammnit you will survive with out him if need be? Cause you will, you know that right?

Totally LOL @ the juicy squeeze comment, if I may paraphrase!

Funny, Advent started yesterday & our word for the week which the first lit candle represents is HOPE.

That IS what this season is all about. Kimmy, I've no doubt that you are NOT wasting your time. As you said, it is never a waste. HAving dreams that don't come true are not a waste......it's the fun in the dreaming that counts.

I am soooo cynical(or maybe it's jsut my 'realistic' nature) now but I try not to let it rub off on those I love. I don't want to discourage my ktbunch or anyone from dreaming & hoping. I still hold onto MY secret dreams.

And this applies to a marriage as well, rocky or not. I have heard, read & known of sooooooo many LOST & hopeless marriages be reborn that it's not even funny! But it's true.

I hold my own marriage as living proof. I thought, "if MY marraige could be saved & reborn w/ this OC crap thrown in.....ANYBODY'S can" then I met marriages in WORSE shape than my own & also being restored. I don't believe it can happen w/o God, if truth be told.

The Bible says, NOTHING is impossible w/ God....I don't doubt it one bit. I don't 'feel' it w/ the emotiional part of me I believe it w/ the logical intillectual part of me. Does that make sense?

I just KNEW my marraige was hopeless. My dreams had been shattered & totally destroyed. And I thought, if MY marraige can't make it, if MY H could cheat on me then who else is? How many other people are living lies? How many other men are sitting in my church living a lie? Maybe God is a lie. I was about to go hope-broke.

Then the light went on-----& I realized----who the heck am I? Aren't I living a lie myself? Aren't we all? So yah, WHO am I?

I KNOW there is nothing lost in hope. NOTHING. But oh so much to gain. So you dream big & it doesn't happen--does that mean you stop dreaming? OR maybe you can try harder to make it happen. Who knows?

What's to lose if you just go balls out & it doesn't work out? SO what? To me-it's ALL about LOVE. Not the wishy washy feeling but the real kick @$$ VERB that holds the key.

Kimmy, you know what that is & you aren't afraid.

So xAx thinks she made a bad choice in a man----yah maybe BUT if you hadn't........you would not have your angelbaby. There is always a lesson to learn. YOU changed so why not anyone else?

My H & I both were a bunch of immature losers...well, I wasn't a loser but...anyhoo we were pretty lost. I was sooo miserable that I used to HOPE he WOULD cheat so that I could get a D, get out of the marraige & NOT look bad. HOW CRAZY IS THAT?

Oh---& then it really happened? Of course it was when I wasn't feeling like that anymore!

If I had not stuck around--------I would not be married to the man my H IS TODAY. He is totally the man of my DREAMS that I was even afraid to dream about for fear that 'he' did not exist. HE is a man I totally ADMIRE, (which I never did before). I trust him w/ my soul much less my body & my babies. (not w/ my deodarant though! LOL eeewwwe!)

Is he perfect? puuuhleeze! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But is he perfect for me? You better believe it!!!!!

There are reasons for marraige VOWS & they aren't to be taken lightly. MArriage is NOT for the faint @ heart.

I'm rambling I know..but there is just no need to lose HOPE ---EVER! We learn to make beter choices & decisions but no need to lose HOPE.

Kimmy, xAx, whoever & anyone----you can hope as long as you want & that does not make you weak or a loser. It means you have faith in somthing bigger than yourself.

I think, HOPE is a risk & you can't fully LIVE or LOVE w/o risk. We are always so afraid of getting hurt so we hold back & then we can't fully enjoy or feel the fullness of our selves.

It's like......you might be afraid of the slide & w/ good reason, you might fall over the edge, it is pretty high-but you know what-if you don't climb to the top & go down, you will never know how it almost feels like flying!

Or the first time you jump off the swings when your so high you can almost swear you are gonna go right over the bar. Yah you end up coming down on the sand--every mother's nightmare-- but do you see the rush & look in the eye of the kid who just jumped the highest? And most of the time---they NEVER get hurt!!!

Or how 'bout the time you finally took the ladder ALL the way to the top of the high dive. It's sooooo scary from way up there. ANd it grows higher w/ each step. You're higher than the building! But the feeling you get when you cannon ball right into the DEEP end----what a thrill! (I know kimmy would NEVER cannon ball/belly flop but dive gracefully in hanh?) Yah you might belly flop sometimes--but so what? It heals! LOL
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Sorry.....Yah...maybe I am getting to philisophical & mushy w/ this post....sorry......maybe I am over-dosing ont eh Christmas Spirit-but I say............HEY! IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think you get my point.

Long post just to say......change IS possible-I've seen it happen.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
ooo
xxx
kt

It's the MOST wonderful time of the year!

No xAx, I dont' think kimmy has ANY doubt that she could make it w/o Nio. LOL

ALthough, half her heart might be missing...???

And anyway------I think she is strong enough to know that this is something she WANTS & she is willing to fight for it in whatever way she deems necessary & to bow out if need be as well.

Kimmy, forgive me for speaking for you as I know you don't need anyone answering for you.

Nice post KT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> One must always hope, but God also says do not put your hope in man.

Hmm judging by what you've read about what my ex has done to me (read earlier posts) would you think of me as in idiot if I got back with him? Let me give some more insight, he used to smoke weed daily as well (didnt know when I fell in love with him) now since our breakup he stopped smoking, hasnt gotten an attitude and supposedly has stopped talking to the girl and broke down and cried like a baby when i told him I went on a date. So he's changed for a bit, do you think I would be an idiot if I got back with him? I do, and my friends and family would too. I wished for nothing more than to be together with the father of my child, but I cannot not be with or love someone who makes a fool out of me.

Your right, my hope was not in man, God did all the work, H & I were just willing participants.

I wouldn't think you were an idiot but only you would know if it was too soon to trust your X & that would tell whether that would be a wise decision or not. kwim?

Being hopeful does not mean you don't have boundaries or keep your guard up for a time & a season.

How many women go right back to a guy @ the first sign or promise of 'change' w/o anything to back it up? That is where it all starts to fall apart.

It's about taking care of your child first, which is getting yourself in a healthier frame of mind & taking it from there.

Your child's father would have a lot of work to do to PROVE he had changed. Then there is that little thing called 'commitment' which includes a ring & a date! LOL

Then you go from there.

Just like you would need to PROVE that you are a stronger & healtheir individual as well. How? By not putting up w/ bad behavior from anyone. Staying strong & sticking to your boundaries. kwim?

I was also very young when I had my first & H & I first got married. I can relate to that aspect. Looking back-we both had A LOT of growing up to do.

WE were in a bit of denial over that. I was more mature (than H) but still only 19 w/ baby & H to deal w/. New inlaws that I barely knew! whew! Talk about crazy. WE had no idea who we were much less who we were meant to be to each other.

It's kinda wierd when you are up all night w/ baby & friends are up all night partying, or you are living on your own w/ H & friends are w/ parents & a curfew! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> kwim?

You think you know so much @ every age you are & the younger you are the more you think you know. But as you get older....the more you realize how much you don't know! LOL
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I'm only 31 now w/ 12 years of marraige, 3 kids, & 1 OC (H)...........I think I am too young to have gone through this much already! @ the rate I'm going, I figure I should know EVERYTHING by the time I'm 45!!!! LOL

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> One must always hope, but God also says do not put your hope in man. <hr /></blockquote>Again this is what I wrote"

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> There are no gimmies in life. None. The only true gimmie is the Word. I count on no man. My only faith is just that, faith.
<hr /></blockquote>Sometimes God has to remind me that this is his business I'm doing and to please give it back...but my hope is in Him to work on Nio, if He uses me as a tool to hammer the point home, I'm there for Him. My vows were as much to Him as they were to Nio and the world.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You say Nio is hurting now, was he hurting after the first OC as well, cause now there is two. <hr /></blockquote>and:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why is it up to him, he's the one who messed up, you call the shots.
<hr /></blockquote>Have you ever seen someone in a deep depression? Someone who has totally lost their Way - who've taken a different Path than God wished for them? That is Nio - it has been Nio for about 3 years (since his mother died and he began the A). Seriously, you do know that depression is an illness, right? That it works by firing certain chemicals in your brain, and by having those chemicals released on a constant, steady basis creates a habitual firing of those chemicals so that the brain is in constant stress mode. That IS my husband. He is only now learning how a body deals with stress and what steps he can take to alleviate it. His body is being litterally eaten up by the stress. He is also a comfort eater. When he stresses, he eats, he gains weight. Also an illness, also a toll on a body. It is a vicious circle...depression, bad decisions that begets more depression that begets more bad decisions that begets........

I was listening during the sickness and health part. Because the illness is in his brain does not make it less an illness. Can I make him well? No. But I can be there for him when he takes the steps to make himself better.

Depression causes "normal" people to make horrible decisions for themselves. Really. Ask my bio dad...oh wait, you can't. Because in HIS depression, he shot himself. But he should've known better, right? He was a psychotherapist who worked on a suicide hotline....but no. Depression ate at his brain, till the world looked like a desolate and lonely place.

This is not an excuse. This is something that I understand and take into consideration when weighing my pros and cons regarding my husband.

To answer your question: It is up to him, because it is not in MY power to fix him. Only HE can make the changes necessary in his life to get better. I cannot force him to see a doc or therapist. I've done my work. I'm here for him and God is here for him....it's up to him to do his part. I cannot force him to make good decisions. I can watch and see if he's doing so, though...and make my own decisions regarding our life together accordingly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I understand we should not judge a person until we've walked a mile in their shoes, but I have tried the shoe on and it really sucks. <hr /></blockquote>I thought about this comment a lot last night. While I agree that you might've slipped on my galoshes for a brief moment, I'll have to tell you that your situation and mine are TOTALLY different. I've known Nio for 10 years. 7 of those VERY, EXCEEDINGLY happy. When his mother died, Nio hit rock bottom...and he is only now climbing out of that pit. Will he get out completely? I don't know, but I'm here with a rope, ready to help.

- Kimmy

Kind of off topic, but not really. One thing that keeps pressing in my mind is FORGIVENESS. And, since other's have already brought up The Word, well, who has given the ultimate forgiveness? And for MUCH worse than our respective WS's have done to us! And, there was NEVER a limit on how many times, in fact, even with the verse of "70 x 7" was just a figure! You are to forgive as many times as you are asked!

One other thing, when the bible does talk of D, yes it does say that infidelity is an acceptable reason for D, but that is AFTER you have tried EVERYTHING to save your M! In fact, the way I see it, if there is to be a D, then the one doing the betraying should be the one to file! And, before anyone tries to discredit what I'm saying, I know from first hand experience, as my H has had MULTIPLE A's, and we are still together!

It's not and easy thing to deal with, no matter WHAT side you are on, but if you just remember what Christ has done for us, it makes it easier to see the end of the tunnel!

As a WS, it is VERY difficult to forgive myself, as it is for the majority of those who are WS's. Many times, that's what ends up causing the most trouble! Heck, I was willing to walk away from my kids because of the guilt of the pain that I had caused to so many!

So, having been TOGETHER for 19 yrs, and married almost 16, I can say that it is worth trying to save, even if the WS isn't trying. At least then you can say that YOU tried, right? As for any time limit, well, that is, AS ALWAYS, on a case by case basis. But, to just give up RIGHT AWAY, you haven't even tried, right?

Having been on this forum for over 4 years, I can say that the majority of those who used the principles from this site were able to save their M's and are in a much happier place than they used to be. Even if the WS wasn't willing to read or "use" those principles, they actually were using them in reality! I recommend re-reading the principles and seeing how you can apply them to your M. Re-read the books you already have and/or buy/read some that you haven't! These techniques have been developed over MANY years, and with MANY couples in MANY different situations! Give them time to work first before jumping right to the D.

Ok, done with my lecture! I hope that many of you who are very new to this situation, or have been around, but are ready to give up, can look at this site and find the help that they need!

God Bless all your M's!

Tigger

Morning guys...

First I'll respond to KT's post. When I first came here I was engaged to my childsfather, but the posters here thought I'd be a fool if I married someone who I knew has it in him to cheat, since he had. So yeah I had the ring, just didn't have the commitment, and as I see first hand marriage isn't much but a piece of paper.

Kimmy: Depression? I know a little bit of how it works, but isn't that like me saying oh my ex cheated on me because he came from a bad home and has lots of issues because he does. It still sounds like your making excuses any way you put it. He did a bad thing plain and simple and he did it again. In his heart he knew. So you didn't exactly answer my question. He didn't learn his lesson after the first OC, what makes you think after the second OC he is learning his lesson. He knows he got away with it.

(double)

[ November 30, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Dealan-de ]

Again, Angel, you are only seeing one teeny, tiny speck in our marriage. You have a microscope focused on one very hard time in our lives instead of looking through the macroscope to see the whole shebang.

I see the whole picture. I see the 5 gagillion little good things intertwined with the few bad things and weigh the two.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He didn't learn his lesson after the first OC, what makes you think after the second OC he is learning his lesson. He knows he got away with it.
<hr /></blockquote>In this statement you are making an assumption about my husband based on looking at our lives through a microscope.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Depression? I know a little bit of how it works, but isn't that like me saying oh my ex cheated on me because he came from a bad home and has lots of issues because he does. <hr /></blockquote>No, it's not. It's a KNOWN and ACKNOWLEDGED disease. It's treatable through meds. It is something that you go to the doctor for. It is also something that must be taken into consideration when making life altering decisions regarding my marriage. Was he always depressed? No. Is depression a treatable/fixable thing? Yes. Those answers are on my decision scale.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He did a bad thing plain and simple and he did it again. In his heart he knew. <hr /></blockquote>Do you honestly think that? There is no room in your mind to look at it through a series of events instead of funnelling it down to such a simple explaination? It is not that simple.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He didn't learn his lesson after the first OC, <hr /></blockquote>What lesson? That the OW was manipulating him? No, he didn't learn it. That what he was doing was wrong? He did know it, but he also "felt" in love with OW - as well as in love with me. This was AFTER he realized what he was doing - after he became sober. He was caught in a oroborous loop, never ending that he could see. There are a million little lessons we learned, and a million more with #2.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He knows he got away with it.
<hr /></blockquote>That one sticks in my craw. Sorry Angel. You cannot possibly make that assumption. He's gotten away with nothing. He made choices and God called him on them. Twice. I would like to know what exactly he got away with? Tell me what you see that he got away with. Please? He got a wife that he adores that cries periodically (literally <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) because it does hurt, no matter how you look at it, and he knows he's the cause of the tears and fear. He lost his in-laws, the only set of parents he had left. He lost respect at work. OW calls to harangue him and tell him he's betrayed her. He has two babies with her that quite possibly could end up just like her - on welfare and in the 'jects of SAT. He has lost my son's respect - a boy he raised as his own. He will have to face our two children someday when they ask him questions about their siblings. He has lost financially and emotionally. And he has to live with it. All of these issues plague him on a daily basis. I know, because we talk of it. What gain in all this loss do you see?

The only bright spots in this mess are the kids. All of them. They are proof that God will take your bad choices and make the best He can out of them.

And yes, if you only concentrate on the thorns in life, you miss the roses. I CHOOSE to concentrate on the roses. It is a hard path. But it's not without it's own beauty.

Tig-

Forgiveness is a harder word to DO than to say. I've learned that lesson very well....

- Kimmy

The human spirit is nearly impossible to kill.

Kimmy I'm beginning to see yours just might....

Have you acknowledged yet that what your husband did was WRONG! So far the picture you've given me of this man is that he is some sort of gold covered saint, who is depressed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Is your husband still in contact with the OW, well I guess that's a dumb question on my part. They do have two children together. Do you really want to deal with that the rest of your life? Have that worry? Well I know you don't want that but are you prepared to live the rest of your life like that, because if you don't start looking at the "future" picture that's what you have in store for you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Have you acknowledged yet that what your husband did was WRONG! So far the picture you've given me of this man is that he is some sort of gold covered saint, who is depressed.
<hr /></blockquote>Um, you've not read my journal or my posts? I am -- acerbic sometimes...I'm a smart a$$ from a long line of smart a$$es. Nio's been more on the recieving end of it. He is no saint....snort...and maybe the picture here is golden (I really don't think so...I think it paints him in rather a pathetic light), but he's pissed me the hell off more than once, and he must make amends. The amends I'm demanding of him are that he FIX HIMSELF.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> They do have two children together. Do you really want to deal with that the rest of your life? Have that worry? Well I know you don't want that but are you prepared to live the rest of your life like that, because if you don't start looking at the "future" picture that's what you have in store for you.
<hr /></blockquote>The future...well, it'll come. Yes, I know I'm stuck with OW for awhile. If you've read my posts, though, you know that once we move, we will be filing for custody of the children. Read my journal (tho, I've been sorely neglectful of it lately). You'll see the reasons why we feel it'd be best, I'm sure. But once done, I think the OW will limit her contact with us. She already feels betrayed by him....what's she gonna feel about us having the kids.......I don't even know a word for it.

Nio is not some white knight. To quote Buzz:

You are sad, strange little man.

Someday, I pray he'll be a "happy, strange little man." LOL.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by XangelX:
 Morning guys...

First I'll respond to KT's post. When I first came here I was engaged to my childsfather, but the posters here thought I'd be a fool if I married someone who I knew has it in him to cheat, since he had. So yeah I had the ring, just didn't have the commitment, and as I see first hand marriage isn't much but a piece of paper.
<hr /></blockquote>This last line is so insulting to married people everywhere.

But I think it shows your lack of experience & maturity level so I won't take it personally.

You say it yourself you didn't have the COMMITTMENT so how what would make you think it's 'just a piece of paper'? It's the commitment behind the paper & you didn't have it.

The COMMITMENT to try your hardest, when things are ruff, to work it out. The commitment to love your spouse fully, strengths AND weaknesses. The commitment to turn around & face your own weakenessess & beg forgiveness & the commitment to do al that is necessary to try & repair the damage you are responsible for creating. The commitment to face the consequences TOGETHER.
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A fool to marry someone who 'has it in them to cheat'??? Do you honestly believe that YOU DON'T have it in you to cheat? We are ALL capable of anything & the ones who swear they aren't are living a life of false arrogance and are even more susceptable.
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Having a BOYFRIEND who cheats on you is WAY different than having a SPOUSE who cheats on you. They are NOT the same thing.
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And that whole 'depression' thing...yah, you really can't know unless you are the one in it & even then it is harder to recognize when you are IN it.

I always thought 'depression' was just some psycho-babble-mumbo-jumbo crap. UNTIL it hit me. I am one of the most logical, level headed people, not hyper-sensitive, not overly emotional & here I was literally going crazy. Not until I was in the midst of my own depression did I realize the severity of the 'disorder' or whatever you want to call it. It's not black & white as you seem to think.

You can't think straight, you are literally contemplating choices & decisions that are totally crazy but seem logical to yourself. Then you get some medication & you realize how insane it was. You have the same situations on your hands but now your brain is working properly & you can think straight.

Everyone is different. Everyone's marraige works differently.

How many people grow up in circumstances that they swear they will never repeat or do & then--suddenly they wake up & realize they have done the exact opposite & turned into the exact thing they vowed never to be?

It's like the addict. They KNOW the drugs are wrong but they keep going back right? To us, the non-addicts it makes NO sense what so ever but to the one caught up in it---it's as if they have no choice in it.

A are very much like addictions by the way. There may be no chemical dependency but there is plenty of emotional dependency.

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Tigger is also right about forgiveness. When you can learn to give & practice forgiveness it can open up whole new worlds. Forgiveness does not mean that you allow yourself to be treated badly over & over again. But to be willing to not hold the offense against the offender.

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sincerely,
kt

When I said marriage is not much but a piece of paper I meant through most people's eyes, not mine. I value the sanctity of marriage. I was raised catholic and try to follow the ways as best as I can. I made the mistake of having a child without being married, but believe me I tried to make it right, I suppose that's why I believed his lies. I was commited to making my family work, but after awhile I was starting to look like a fool, and was no longer credible, so I squashed that. I can honestly say this, since I've severed that relationship I have matured and grown spiritually more than I ever did when I was with him.

One thing though, before you guys jump on me, your preaching to the wrong person sisters, because sounds to me like it's your husbands who need it lectured into them.

KT I disagree with you on this statement:

A fool to marry someone who 'has it in them to cheat'??? Do you honestly believe that YOU DON'T have it in you to cheat? We are ALL capable of anything & the ones who swear they aren't are living a life of false arrogance and are even more susceptable.

If you had not been cheated on, you would not be saying this. I believe your saying this, because like Kimmy you kind of paint the ugly picture alittle bit better because it happened to you. That's just like saying we have it in us to kill, try drugs,yada yada. Doesn't mean we are going to do it.

But you guys don't really understand where I am coming from. What could a 22 year old possibly know about life right.

Actually, you probably know quite a lot...but there is still much to learn. I know a lot more than I did at 22, but not as much as I'll know at 50. I shan't preach it to you. It's up to you how much you absorb.

Suffice to say you are not an expert in this field and neither am I - tho I DO have more of an insight on this particular subject of my life with Nio than you do. Doesn't mean we can't learn together.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That's it, I am convinced you do not have a mean bone in your body Kimmy lol.

I see what your doing. Your killing me with kindness....**I'm melting...I'm melting" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Yes life is a learning process, we never stop learning. While I wish I had never gone through what I have, or been wronged, I am so grateful I went through it now. I have not been in your pool, but I have put my foot in. If you've ever read my very first posts on MB, you would know that my childsfather got the other girl pregnant (she aborted). I have felt those awful feelings. I went through the crying, loss of appetite, feeling of hopelessness, the feeling that I was going to become my worst nightmare, another statistic; a single mother. I don't wish those feelings on anyone. It has been 1 yr and a half since the worst of it, and I still breathe a sigh of relief that it is over with, and I don't feel those feelings anymore.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> That's it, I am convinced you do not have a mean bone in your body Kimmy lol.
<hr /></blockquote>((((((BIG OL'SNORT)))))

You havn't heard the very horrible curses I've wished upon OWs stupid lousy head.....but only after I was nice to her and she bit me in the butt....lmao! Now, I hope she gets hit by a bus....shhhhhh. Don't tell. Not very Christian and the like. I also wish she'd come down with a horrible case of boils on her rear, making it very hard to sit down, and excessivly not-attractive to anyone of the opposite sex...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I could go on...

Oh, and you DO know what my screen name means, right? It's Gaelic for butterfly - but it has a double meaning. It also means God's Fire.

I am constantly evolving - we all are. I am constantly becoming more beautiful - inside.

If you had not been cheated on, you would not be saying this. I believe your saying this, because like Kimmy you kind of paint the ugly picture alittle bit better because it happened to you. That's just like saying we have it in us to kill, try drugs,yada yada. Doesn't mean we are going to do it.

First......I didn't know there was a way to paint this any better. LOL Let me know how & I will.

I say 'this' because I have realized that I am not 'above' doing anything. Yes, I believe I'm capable of murder, no it does not mean I will go out & do it. I am fully capable of cheating on my H as well, I just haven't done it yet. (not that I'm planning anything) There are things I used to say I'd NEVER do.....& I ended up doing them---THAT'S when I quit saying, "I would never..." and it was waaaaay before my H's A.

But you guys don't really understand where I am coming from. What could a 22 year old possibly know about life right.

We know more about where you are coming from than you think because we ahve ALREADY been there. You, of course know more about YOU & your situation but we ahve been 22, have been married, blah blah blah blah.

No, we don't know it all. I wish....am I repeating myself? sorry.

But there is some wisdom that comes w/ age......& experience. And I'm not saying that I even know more than you just becuase I am older either.....but there are a few experiences that you have just not encountered yet. But it's not about age but that is part of it.

If I had NO kids.......I'd listen to you becuase you would have more experience there. kwim?

All we are saying is that things are not always black & white. I remember thinking it was. I coudl practically prove it (all that black & white logic)------then guess what----grey was smeared all over my world & I couldn't escape. I tried to add black & tried to add white & it just continued to get more grey! LOL

I still believe most things are black & white & I am very uncomfortable in a world w/ shades of grey......but they are still there.

I think that is how you think by what you have written. That is my impression.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
ooo
xxx
kt

VERY good analogy, KT!

I'm swimming thru grey some days!

All we are saying is that things are not always black & white. I remember thinking it was. I coudl practically prove it (all that black & white logic)------then guess what----grey was smeared all over my world & I couldn't escape. I tried to add black & tried to add white & it just continued to get more grey! LOL

Kt: You got that from the TOW board didn't you? Lol. I've seen some of your posts over there, and I saw one where they were talking about gray shades and what not. I go read over there just to further torture myself about people in this world, but I am staying away from there now, it starts to depress me.

uh...no I did not get it from TOW. Must have missed that thread/post. I am haven't read over there for some time. That place is TOO much grey for me! LOL

No actually, I figured that one out all by myself. Our marriage group was reading this book on communication & it went through the different personality types & H & I were pretty well-balanced on all the different aspects of it EXCEPT the thinker/feeler type.

I am totally %90 a 'thinker', so much so, I always say I should have been born a vulcan! LOL So that was what got me to thinking about black-white-grey.

My H is a total FEELER--so we conflict sometimes but reading about it & the personality actually being described in a book-I felt validated. LOL

Helped us understand where each other was coming from. Sorry for the TJ here.

sincerely,
kt

It's the most wonderful time of the year!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I always say I should have been born a vulcan! <hr /></blockquote>Me too. I often wonder if my parents had my ears lopped off.

I'm much too logical for my own good, sometimes.

Dealn-de wrote:

I'm much too logical for my own good, sometimes.

Don't you mean your logical unless it concerns your husband, cause staying with a man who had two OC with his mistress and thinking it won't happen again isn't logical thinking.

Hey have you read Lemonman's story on general questions? You ought to. It's good , there is a comment on page 4 by "Trix" quoting lemonman about forgiving infidelity, and what it says about yourself.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />thinking it won't happen again isn't logical thinking.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't remember saying anywhere that I thought it couldn't or won't happen again. There is always that chance. I trust no one where infidelity is concerned.

There is also there very distinct possiblity that if it does happen again, dwh will loose everything he holds dear, too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Hey have you read Lemonman's story on general questions? You ought to. It's good , there is a comment on page 4 by "Trix" quoting lemonman about forgiving infidelity, and what it says about yourself.
<hr /></blockquote>Already ahead of you. Read them all this morning.

XAX,

What does your inability to accept that Dealan has a right to be different from Lemonman, you, me, or anyone else say about you? Lack of tolerance for the uniqueness of others who think and choose differently from ourselves has a name. For some reason you continue to find it necessary to doggedly point out what you see as a "flaw" in her thinking....when you have made choices that could be called equally foolish. Things don't happen in a vacuum. The things that happened to you happened in the context of your life....and were a response to all sorts of complex feelings and occurences as well as what your state of mind and coping skills. How would you feel if people hounded you about what they think you OUGHT to do or should have done when they weren't living your life? Do you really think it's any different from Dealan? Lemonman is Lemonman, you're you, she is who she is. You aren't living her life and she isn't living yours. It would be different if your posts were helpful rather than judgemental....if you actually appeared to care about her. But they don't. They seemed designed to shame her for her choices. why?

First I will respond to Delean-de:

I don't remember saying anywhere that I thought it couldn't or won't happen again. There is always that chance. I trust no one where infidelity is concerned.

Yes this is true, you didn't say that, but I guess for the life of me I still can't understand why you would give your husband another chance once you know OC #2 was on it's way. Again, it doesn't matter if I understand or not I am of no importance to your life, just a face behind the computer screen, but sometimes the choices that people make just baffle the hell out of me especially when it comes to cheating. Before you give me the depression mumbo jumbo and the forgiveness part, can you honestly, honestly say you are living your life to the fullest with that monster and spawn of your husbands affair lurking in the closet. I know you have to be on gaurd or worried constantly. Like I said I know I have only dipped my toe into the kind of pool you've been thrown into but my goodness the little that I went through hurt really really bad, and while I am recovered, the scars are still there.

Now Starfish:

Lack of tolerance for the uniqueness of others who think and choose differently from ourselves has a name.

Well then why can't you see that I have my own set of views as well? I think I'm being unique by saying things like "Oh sure I think your marriage is going to be a success story" or "hang in there, your marriage will make it" I just like to tell it like I see it.

It would be different if your posts were helpful rather than judgemental....if you actually appeared to care about her. But they don't. They seemed designed to shame her for her choices. why

My purpose is not to shame Delean-de, and in my own way I do think I am being helpful, whether she does anything or not, my words and along with everyone elses will run across her mind. I'm just an honest person who doesn't like to sugarcoat things. I don't think I'm being judgmental, as much as you don't think your being defensive.

typo:

Well then why can't you see that I have my own set of views as well? I think I'm being unique by saying things like "Oh sure I think your marriage is going to be a success story" or "hang in there, your marriage will make it" I just like to tell it like I see it.

I meant to put being unique by not saying things like....

I'm just going to let kimmy keep melting you with kindness and maybe you'll realize that no one here gives the kind of advice you just mentioned:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "Oh sure I think your marriage is going to be a success story" or "hang in there, your marriage will make it" <hr /></blockquote>I know of no one here...who has made the above claims....in fact just the opposite. She has fielded these same concerns from almost everyone...though most were expressed more compassionately out of respect for her and her own right to choose.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> spawn of your husbands <hr /></blockquote>OMG! You ARE being sarcastic, right? They are not some evil beings...they are chidren - who deserve all the love and guidance the world can give them. If you saw them at a daycare or in school would you want to help them less if you knew their origins?

How small your world is if you would.

Hi Angel,

The rest of the world tells us to walk away from our M's and to "just throw the bum out". This is Marriage Builders, where the decision and choice to stay in or work on our M's are supported--no matter how extreme anybody else finds the situation.

It's one thing to question and maybe challenge another poster's choices. It's quite another to call a WS a monster and to refer to the OC as spawn. Dealan-de has made it clear that she loves those two children--and she doesn't keep them in any closet. Your words and overall tone have become more and more insulting and confrontational.

I just like to tell it like I see it. I'm just an honest person who doesn't like to sugarcoat things.

Okay, me too!--You're coming across as a boor with a point to prove, at Dealan's expense.You've asked, she's answered. You don't like her answers--she knows. Why keep at it?

Jenny

Alright! It's time to call a kings x!

Thank you for your staunch support everyone. Star is correct, it IS my decision. It is something that I question frequently and am constantly weighing the pros and cons of.

Angel, thank you for your concern. I do appreciate it. I understand why you made the decisions you did. I also understand that you cannot fathom living in my situation. Perhaps it's a good thing God let me have it instead of you. Maybe not. It's a hard burden...and it's mine by choice right now. Period.

- Kimmy

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dealan-de:
 Alright! It's time to call a kings x!

Thank you for your staunch support everyone. Star is correct, it IS my decision. It is something that I question frequently and am constantly weighing the pros and cons of.

Angel, thank you for your concern. I do appreciate it. I understand why you made the decisions you did. I also understand that you cannot fathom living in my situation. Perhaps it's a good thing God let me have it instead of you. Maybe not. It's a hard burden...and it's mine by choice right now. Period.

- Kimmy <hr /></blockquote>Hi Kimmy!!

I am no wiser or smarter than anyone, but I have been around these boards a long time. I just want to tell you that you have class. Of course, since you are a Texan, that is no surprise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Goodness, you guys like to twist what I say. Let me reiterate what I said.

with that monster and spawn of your husbands affair lurking in the closet.

Ok obviously I was not calling Kimmy's husband a monster, notice the word monster and husband in the same sentence, if I meant he was a monster I wouldn't of put husband. I said the monster of her husbands affair, it's more like an analogy. I put spawn just to add a little more fuel to my wording I suppose, but if I meant it in a bad way I would of put spawn of the devil which I didn't. Capiche? I love all little children, no matter how they got in this world.

I live in a small world? I most certainly do not think so. Yes there are all sorts of scenarios and exceptions in life, but there is also the obvious and logical. I admit I may be a bit more negative in this area than most, but if we all felt alike, then this world would be very bleak. I harbor no ill will towards anyone here, I just like to say what's on my mind, as I get no hard feelings when you guy's don't like something that I said. Perhaps in some way we are broadening each other's horizons.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Perhaps in some way we are broadening each other's horizons.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't know if I broadened yours, but mine spans far more than you imagine. I do understand the whys and hows of your questioning, but believe me, I've been asked the same queries far too many times....most of all I've asked them of myself. Please understand, tho, you are beating a dead horse. I've made my decisions. I reserve the right to change my mind. But I will do so under no duress or because of the world's views of what's right and wrong. The world isn't living my life, I am. I am the judge and jury on whether I want to end my relationship or stay the course.

I hope I answered whatever questions you had even though I'm pretty certian that you will always scratch your head and wonder "why????" or "how????" about my life's story.

Thank you John. That was sweet.

I reserve the right to change my mind. But I will do so under no duress or because of the world's views of what's right and wrong.

Your right, I'm the same way. When I make decisions, I don't make them just because other people want me to but I do take into account what they are saying and sometimes it will influence me. But I suppose also you are on this board to seek advice along with most other people on this board. For example you guys probably see me as a person who won't forgive cheating again (done it before with the ex) and kind of blunt. I am firm on my own views now, but this last Friday I caught myself double guessing myself over in another topic, I asked gingersnap what advice she would give me seeing how she forgave her husband (my ex sounds similar to hers). The point is I'm pretty dead-set on not getting back with my ex ever, but by reading all these forgiving stories and what not, I had myself doubting myself, (this is where my "influence" story was going) Anyhow, I got over it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and I'm sticking to my guns.

I probably will be scratching my head over the how's and why's of your story, but I also know some questions have no answers. My scratch has been itched though. Ciao.

It is wrong to call INNOCENT CHILDREN Spawn peroid!!! ALL CHILDREN ARE A GIFT FROM GOD,regardless how they come to all of us.
I've been reading the posts on this thread tryed not to get upset about Xangels posts but sorry can longer do that, sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I do know they weren't directed to me
Also,Xangel: How do you think you would feel if someone called your children spawn? Wouldn't you be hurt,too?
I do apperciate Honesty but it needs to be done in a less harsh manner.

Angels1966 keep your pants on! Spawn isn't a bad word, excuse me for trying to use my vocabulary. Let me refresh you about the meaning of spawn ok.

Spawn:

1)Offspring occurring in numbers; brood

2)A person who is the issue of a parent or family

3)A product or an outcome

There, buy a clue. Oh and I really don't give a rat's [censored] if someone called my child a spawn, I'd say your right. but my child has been called a [censored] before, so been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I think I will put you on my prayer list.

Why? Who says I need to be prayed for? Life is good right now. I have God in my life,he's the one that finally got me through my sorrow. When you stop fighting and let God do his will and listen maybe that's when your lives will turn around. Before I get called a hypocrite, I am a good person. Yes I can be argumentative at times, and I don't sugarcoat my words, but I know who I am. Maybe I should put you in my prayers.

XAX,

I have no objection to anyone using their vocabulary, now if only you we could convince you to use a little more compassion, sensitivity and good manners...wow...just think how much easier it might be for people to "hear" you. Maybe you just like talking to yourself...some folks do...but if you're actually interested in folks listening, you might try using that extensive vocab in a more fruitful way....like in a well worded apology.

Oh and don't play dumb and pretend that you aren't aware of the negative implications associated with the word "spawn"...especially after declaring how smart you are. I've got a t shirt too...it says "I see mean people".

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Why? Who says I need to be prayed for? <hr /></blockquote>Angel - Please. I'm sure it's not meant to offend you. Many people consider it a blessing to be prayed for. Perhaps you don't feel you are in need of it, but really the only gracious response for when someone says they'll pray for you is, "Thank you."

You are a complex and caring individual. You are well spoken and write with a clear idea of what you wish to get across. Please just take such comments at face value, and don't assume inferences that may not be there. Okay?

- Kimmy

PS - The appalling lack of manners that others have shown in the way they speak of your darling child is abhorrent! Your baby is a joy and a gift. (((Angel&Baby)))

Oh and don't play dumb and pretend that you aren't aware of the negative implications associated with the word "spawn"...especially after declaring how smart you are. I've got a t shirt too...it says "I see mean people".

I know what you mean about the negative implications, but I really wasn't trying to imply that they were devil spawn. I was just on a roll with my wording and I can get carried away and spit out alternative words,and stuff. I suppose I didn't have to say spawn since you guys can not hear how I am emphasizing it, and can't help but take it the wrong way. I also know that certain things I say can stir up the dust around here. But hey I just got a new t-shirt it says "Stop being so sensitive"

I know compassion, I also know about tough love, in my own way I try to help by giving some kicks in the pants. Hey it worked on me. If I would of heard things like "Yes your ex will change" Or "Give him another chance" then I might have stayed with him and been miserable, and been making my daughter miserable. I couldn't let her see me cry anymore.

Kimmy thank you. You have a tremendous amount of patience and love to give around. Your words make a little soft spot in my heart.

I know what you mean XAX. I was reading about how 70%! of communication is lost on the internet. No body language, intonation, facial expression, etc....so it's so very easy to be misunderstood. But you have to admit that "spawn" is a pretty strongly negative word to describe children....eek it's usually used for fish and reptillian layings...uck. Not to mention the whole "spawn of hell/devil" and such.

As far as the tough love stuff....I absolutely believe that it is valuable...but again, I'd like to see you find ANYONE (I'm challenging you to find some posts like that)who has advised kimmy that her "h will change" or to "give him another chance". Nope, she's gotten mostly folks who can't understand how she's done it and who mostly worry about her.

Hey, I'm not asking you to change your message anyway....I think it's very valid...all I was commenting on is the harsh wording you use sometimes. So be true...be honest...be authentic...but you can do all that without using words simply for shock value, or "spawning" complaints...hehhehehehe. Besides, "if all you have is a hammer...everything looks like a nail."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

**Makes mental note** (watch words that can add shock value <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Reply taken into consideration.

Carpe Diem <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yah I thought spawn was a an interesting word to choose to use in the context you were using it w/ ('in the closet thing') but hey, I'm one of the NOT so sensitive ones.

There's a BIG difference between NOT sugar coating things & using TACT! It would behoove you (xax)to learn it, it has helped my communication skills tremendously when I realized the value of tact. I applaud being honest & straightforward but.....some people ARE sensitive, even if we may not be..we need to recognize THIER sensitivities.
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I am happy for you that you have learned, @ such a rather young age, the importance of relational health, so that in the future if there ever is to be a Mr. XaX, you will have chosen much wiser! Many women (of any age) never learn & keep repeating the same mistakes over & over & over again. It's so sad.
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Hey, I just call the ktbunch what they are: "Freak of my womb" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> is one of my favorite sayings in our home! LOL We even put a sticker on the back of our car that says Homeschool Freaks! Figured we better claim the title before someone uses it against us! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ooo
xxx
kt
(thick-skinned daughter of a HYPER-sensitive mother!)