Here is some background, before I ask some questions.

We have been together for nearly 13 years, and just celebrated our 10th anniversary in May. We were together a year before getting engaged, then engaged for for another 1.5 years before marrying. We got two wonderful cats whom we loved as our own children(if we had them). We bought a house together, and built what seemed to be a great life together. We were always like "two peas in a pod", loved doing things together, from walking, biking, going on romantic trips to Mexico or Niagra, Vegas, Atlantic City, you name it. We always had a blast, and it seemed to me, and everyone else that we were very much in love, and a "poster couple". We saw eye to eye on most everything, from politics to staying fit, and what we wanted our life to be. We were cutesy with each other, even sang goofy little songs to each other, even up till now. We had wonderful traditions that we'd do for Christmas, and other special occasions. In short, it seemed like we were in a wonderful state of bliss, and never once had I thought our marriage would EVER end. It wasn't perfect, nothing ever is, we had our ups and downs. I never once dreamed, in my worst nightmares that she would ever want to leave. Just this past spring we went on our 10th anniversary trip to Playa Del Carmen, had a great time, maybe the best trip ever. We bought a new boat(major financial committment), and have been taking that out and having a blast. Overall, she is the most thoughtful, loving, and wonderful person I have ever known. I never once felt unloved, unattractive, or "unmanly" in her eyes.

Now, there have been issues during those 10 years, some with sex. In more recent years, but probably at least half of the marriage, she didn't seem all that interested in it. She had some physical issues, and what she described as a "low libido". We tried some things to make it more fun for her, including toys, watching porn together, etc. Sometimes it seemingly worked really well. We had some other issues as well, mostly regarding my job, and her desire for me to improve the situation. Things had stagnated for me(I work in the private sector as a software developer), but I had made some attempts to improve the situation. I started my own business on the side, which was key in us being able to afford boats. She works for the government, and has accelerated quickly, surpassing me in income, etc. She really wants me to change jobs, and I do to, but it's not always that easy or simple. Bottom line is, that is something that she does not respect about me at all - she feels I am either apathetic or lazy about it, or afraid to change.

None of these issues seemed like anything that couldn't be overcome. She was still acting the same, loving way towards me, I still felt like were were completely connected and symbiotic. Yes, the bedroom issues lingered, but in our recent trip in Mexico, things were pretty spontaneous and fun in that department. Neither of us had ever been unfaithful or interested in being so.

A couple of weeks ago, I noticed her becoming somewhat emotionally distant. Nearly everything I said or did seemed to annoy her, and this of course led to me being annoyed or upset, and a lot of bickering or snipping would follow. She seemed very different to me, almost like "pod" version of the person I have known for the last 13 years. I knew something was wrong, but didn't want to believe it. It seemed unfathomable and foreign. For the very first time in 13 years, I didn't feel like I knew how she felt about me, and us. Eventually I confronted her, and she came out with IT.

She told me that she no longer saw me as a lover, but as a friend, more like a brother that she had fun with. She told me it had been going on for years, that her desire was there, but just not with me(in contrast to her previous "low libido" explanation). She no longer finds me "manly" or attractive to her in that way. She said that maybe we should end our marriage and move on with our lives.

I was floored, shattered, and my world is now upside down. I could not eat, sleep or work. I still cannot believe it. Of course, she said I should have known, etc. The kind of usual "breakup" stuff. We talked it out some, and agreed that maybe we should spend some time apart and try "dating" each other and see if the attraction returns. I decided to be the man, and stepped up, offering to be the one who moves out. The next day I rented an apartment, got my affairs in order, etc. I suggested that we spend a couple of weeks without much contact, other than me coming to our house to cut the grass and whatever else needs to be done. She said she doesn't want to throw away the last 13 years, and because of our vows to one another, will give this a try. Overall though, she obviously isn't making any promises, and I don't feel that she is very hopeful - which makes total sense since she is the one who wanted to end the marriage.

My plans have been to spend my alone time trying to re-find myself. I know there are a lot of things that I should improve on with myself. I had fallen to bad habits, annoying habits around her. There were definitely times where I was insensitive, and not the best husband I could be. I also plan to get things moving with my professional career, not just for her, but for me, because frankly I have been miserable at my job. I want to learn more about stress management, and handle it more like a man rather than a whiny child, which I freely admit I could be at times. I want to regain the "independant" mindset for myself. After a couple of weeks, we plan to start "dating". Maybe dinner at a new restaurant, maybe a boat trip, or maybe I'll surprise her with something from left field like an opera or a show(something she always wanted us to do). I really don't know, because I haven't had to think like this in a very long time.

My main question is, with the information I have given, and the plan we are taking, is this the right approach? She is very adverse to any kind of counseling, and while I'm open to it, I'm often leery of it as I've heard so many stories of it doing more harm than good. She really is insistent on "seeing how things go" first with this separation period. I just want to know if I am doing the right things, as this means so much to me, as does she. Are there tips, or anything that I can do that will ever make her see me again as a "man" and not a "brother"?

John,

A couple of weeks ago, I noticed her becoming somewhat emotionally distant. Nearly everything I said or did seemed to annoy her

The fact that everything you said annoyed her, and the suddenness of her feelings, means she is likely in an affair. The reason your decency annoyed her is that it makes her feel guilty about what she is doing to you.

For now don't ask her if she is in an affair, because she will deny and you will not get anywhere, act as if you accept her cover story. Check the phone bill to determine who she is texting excessively, and snoop on her internet activity.

I hope you are right, but I have a strong feeling you are not.

God Bless
Gamma

I'm definitely sure it's not an affair. We both work from home, and are around each other almost all of the time. We even go to the same gym, and I'd know if she was, I can assure you.

The way I feel is that our marriage is very good in most ways, but the major issue that has her feeling this way. Rather than dismiss her issue by constantly reminding of her of all the good things(and it's not easy, trust me), is that I want to do my best to get that spark back between us(I know it takes time and cannot be forced though). My gut tells me the time apart is a step in the right direction, as well as personally regaining some of the independence that initially was a part of who I was and attractive to her.

Hi John, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry you are here.

What has happened is that your wife fell out of love with you a few years ago. You probably stopped spending as much time together and when that happens, the couple falls out of love. That explains why she lost interest in having sex with you. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. Once they lose the emotional attachment [fall out of love] sex becomes a unpleasant chore.

In the meantime, she met someone else and fell in love with him. It had to be someone she was spending a lot of time with, even if it was on the internet or the phone. When that happened, she had a new point of comparison and your past few years paled in comparison to her affair.

If you do some minor sleuthing you will find that she is having an affair.

The way she strategized this was to keep the affair super secret, tell you she wants a divorce, get you kicked out and then pretend she meets someone new. That way you won't blame the divorce on her affair.

I am so sorry to tell you all this, but I am certain if you hire a PI for a few days, you will find I am correct. And if you get her past cell phone bills, emails, etc, you will find that the affair has been going on for some time.

There is a strong possibility that we can help you save your marriage if you want to save it, though. You have made many strategic mistakes that will be tough to overcome, but we can help if you are willing to do the work.

Moving out was a HUGE strategic mistake that will make it harder to save your marriage. I would move back home.

John,
If you read the opening posts of many of the threads on this forum, especially in the Surviving an Affair section, you will find carbon copies of what you wrote. In all of these cases the spouses are having affairs. Your wife is one of them. The pattern is uncannily the same for most people, and the symptoms your wife is exhibiting are classic.

It takes the betrayed spouses a while to catch on that an affair is going on, but the people who post here can spot the affair a mile away blindfolded with two hands tied behind their backs.

You can save your marriage but you must take these steps:

1) Move back in the house.
2) Snoop on your wife. Hire a PI, put spyware on her phone and computuers, and put a VAR in her car.
3) Go into plan A. No angry outbursts or disrespectful judgments.
4) When you find evidence of the affair, you must confront your wife, drive off the other man, and expose what happened the family and friends of him and your wife, asking them to support you in your marriage by not supporting their affair. Ask for the help and influence.
5)After exposure, you must go into Plan A. It is explained here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

I would also read the articles on infidelity posted on this site. Dr. Harely's writings will awaken in you a better understanding of what happened in your marriage, and what your wife is experiencing now.

Good luck, and we are very sorry you are here.

Time apart is not a step in the right direction.

Making love bank deposits is a step in the right direction.

Please read the Basic Concepts:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1000_video.html

I did read all of that.

I don't want to be apart, but if I did not leave, she was going to. We both agreed that this is temporary, and that we are going to work on "rekindling" the flame, by dating one another, so to speak. At some point I do plan on moving back home, regardless of how being apart works out.

For those who think it's an affair, I am virtually 100% certain that it not - I don't want to elaborate on that just yet, this is a public forum after all.

However, I do not rule out that she has found herself attracted to another man, and causing her to rethink how she feels towards me. That seems like a difficult thing to overcome or ask about without coming off as being weak, or accusatory.

If you want to "rekindle" something do you move away? You can't very well save a marriage if you are not there. That is just the story she gave you to get you moved out. A very typical, classic ruse employed by cheating spouses.

If your car is broken down in the garage, do you drive to Cleveland to fix the car? Of course not. You go into the garage and fix the car. Saying that the purpose of kicking you out is to work on the marriage is a common form of gaslighting that we see every day on this forum. It always come from someone who is in an affair.

I seriously doubt she would have moved out if you had not. Even if she had, it would have made it easier to save your marriage if she DID. By moving out, you are only facilitating her goal of destroying your marriage.


Why are you certain?

We do not want you to accuse her. We want you to get the facts and evidence and then come back here. We will tell you what to do next. We do not support making blind accusations. We deal in hard facts.

The moving away isn't about the rekindling. My wife and I spend, and always have, a very large amount of time together. We work together from home, we spend the entire weekends together doing things we like. She and I have always seen things mostly the same way, and like and enjoy most of the same things. At times, more so in recent years, we've been tending to grate upon one another. The grating has led to animosity, arguing, and sniping. This seems to have gotten particularly worse, especially with my work related stress coming into play. In her words, the lack of intimacy combined with these increasing factors made her rethink being married to me.

Moving out, in my mind, and hers, is a way for us to alleviate the exacerbation and reflect on some things. Refocus on ourselves a bit, and try to start dating each other so to speak and see if that spark returns. I see both of our points of view, and of course there is no guarantee that it will return. We both understand that it's not the initial "lust" we are looking for, just a normal attraction between a man and woman. Right now she sees me as a roommate, which seems to be a pretty common thing, and not just a sign that she is/was cheating. Not every situation is the same, and trust me, I'm not in some kind of denial. I have access to everything I need to know that she is not, so let's just leave it at that.

What I need is real answers that apply to our actual issues - which is mainly that she has lost respect for me, and that I have also fallen into a number of bad habits that facilitated that. I know the answer is not trying to change who I am, but I do need to try to change some things about me to be more like the man she fell in love with. I'm certainly not going to do some weak, desperate thing like try to change who I am. I know that would make her respect me less.

Some things she has said are encouraging, others not as much. I understand for her it's different right now - this has been weighing on her for some time, it's all brand new for me. Fighting the urge to break down and cry, or beg for her to stay with me is tough, but that "stiff upper lip" I feel is something I need to do, I think most would agree? I feel stronger by the day, and I do think that in the end I can focus on myself and rebuilding myself, regardless of the outcome of my marriage to her. Somehow I lost myself, and in that way I feel I lost her respect, and desire.

She says she does want to try and save the marriage. She certainly feels guilt over hurting me so badly, that much I can see plainly. So she might just be giving me lip service, I don't know, but I don't have much else to go on here. My biggest worry now is I don't want to sink into a depression. Living alone in a new apartment is horrifyingly sad to me when I've been accustomed to be being so happy and secure in my home for so many years. I am taking one of our cats with me for companionship, and trying to spend time with friends. I grabbed the bull by the horns and arranged everything in a day, and move in there tomorrow.

I'm not even sure what advice I am asking. In some ways I feel I have some answers, in others I am looking for a guiding hand. I certainly don't think snooping or hiring a PI is going to solve anything at all. If she was having an affair, it would come out one way or another. Just believe me when I tell you that I know for a fact she is not.

It's the suddenness of her wanting to separate rather than her having a reaction of her wanting you to do something to make the marriage better that's a red flag for an affair.

You make it sound like she never made any complaints to you and so you don't even know why she lost interest in sex. Is this true?

Two things are needed for building a great marriage from this point: sound establishment that there is no affair and true willingness to address and resolve complaints, whether those complaints are about what bothers (drains love) or about needs not being met.

Are you sure that holding that stiff upper lip and not letting her know that this hurts and you really want to create a great marriage with her is what respect is made of?

Just how much are you not willing to change about yourself towards the goal of an integrated lifestyle? Gobs of time together doesn't equal an integrated lifestyle.
Did you two work on solving the behaviors that were grating?

Dr. Harley says that marriage requires change of both people in order to become more and more compatible, more and more integrated, with their life as a unit, not one or the other person's goals being supreme.

And I think a PI is just the thing you need. It's paramount to establish that there's no affair. You have to, now, because you won't be well informed enough to do the things needed to get your marriage back and on a track of thriving.

No, maybe I didn't articulate it well, or it got lost in my wall of text.

Sex has been an issue for some time. We'd have it regularly, and she would ask me to do things to spice things up, toys, etc, and I was always willing. She would tell me that it just wasn't as fun for her. She always had difficulty climaxing, even before she was with me. She attributed it to having a low sex drive, etc. Maybe that was to spare my feelings, maybe she genuinely didn't realize some things, it's hard to say. But now, she is telling me that she feels it's because she no longer has that romantic chemistry with me.

For that time, I think she was able to be ok with it because everything else was so great. But, in the past year or two, but mostly more in the last few months, we haven't been getting along quite as well. If I am being honest with myself, I was being at times rather dicky/rude with her, and it was not her fault, it was more me and my work situation getting to me and taking it out on her emotionally. The particular weekend that this change in her really started, and more or less the time she says she realized some things, I was being pretty bad with her, to the point where she was very upset and asking "Do you even LIKE me any more?".

Now I know it takes two, and certainly she has had her moments too of being a little hard to deal with, so I don't put all the blame at my feet.

Last night we talked, and she has made it clear that she does want to try to save the marriage.

John, we can tell you how to solve this, but I am concerned about how open minded you are. You seem to have a very narrow, fixated view of your problem and I don't think you really understand what is happening. That is fine when you have the solution, but you don't.

The answer to your problem is to:

Move back home - moving away makes the problem worse not better. Living together did not cause the problem, so living apart will not resolve the problem. The cause of the problem is arguing. You don't have to move out to resolve that. You STOP arguing.

For some reason you believe that living apart creates a "spark." No, it does not. What creates a "spark" is meeting each others intimate emotional needs and avoiding any lovebusters. THAT creates romantic love. Dating again will not create any spark if you continue behaving as you have. Nor do you have to live apart to date. Dr Harley recommends 4 dates per week to married couples.


Yes, you should change how you behave. That is not a "desperate" thing to do, but the solution to marital problems. A person who won't change is called a freeloader.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.


However, all of the changing in the world will be of no avail if there is an affair in the works. That has to be ruled out first. I realize you have no experience at this and don't want to believe it, but we will be wasting our time and yours if we give you answers and it turns out she is having an affair. If there is an affair, the longer it goes on, the more entrenched it becomes. The more entrenched, the harder it is to save your marriage. This has to be ruled out first.

This is good! Do you have the books "Lovebusters", "His needs, her needs", and " five steps to romantic love"? If not, get them quickly. It appears that a combination of some Lovebusters and needs not met have eroded your marriage.

You also need to be sure of no affair by making quiet steps of verification. This is of utmost importance.

Give her hope that you won't hurt her when you're frustrated - about anything.

Find out what would help her feel romantic towards you. When did you and she feel the need to spice up sex? What was she saying at that time about your relationship? Was it like this at the beginning of your marriage?

That is great. The first step towards this goal is to move back in together so you are spending the nights together. Being separated makes it extremely difficult to fall in love, almost impossible. Can you move back today?

Once you get back home, the first step will be to use this program to fall back in love. The way you create romantic love is to:

1. meet the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment for 20-25 hours per week. It should be done out on DATES together ideally

2. avoid all lovebusters

3. become each others favorite recreational companion

It takes 15 hours per week of undivided attention to SUSTAIN the romantic love in marriage, and 20-25 to create. If you plan out 25 hours per week of UA time, you can fall in love again.

Here is an article that gives you a solution, but the books you need are: Lovebusters, His Needs, Her Needs and Five Steps to Romantic Love. How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

John,

IF you W is having a hidden affair then nothing you do will fix your marriage. This is why you have to snoop to rule out this possibility. Affairs are a special category of human relationships as they are so consuming.

If your W is having an affair you can't use methods intended for rational un-addicted people.

When your W mentioned spicing things up did she mention involving other people?

God Bless
Gamma

John,
I'll repeat. Regardless of the back story, the symptoms are there that your wife is having an affair. You have investigate thoroughly and secretly, root it out, and expose.

You also cannot separate. That gives life to the affair.

But I worry that being together 24/7 is too much. Spending all of your waking hours together would definitely become grating to both of you. Maybe one of you can get a separate job. That way, when you are together it can be quality undivided attention time and things stay fresh. You need to spend 20 hours together doing things that fill both of your emotional needs (read His Needs/Her Needs for more info on this), but I would think that the value of that time together would diminish if you have spent the whole day together working.

John, I apologize if you've already answered this: does your wife have a FaceBook account? Do you have access to it?

A hidden affair has definitely been ruled out. I've done the necessary research. There is nothing going on.

Moving out was as much for me as for taking the marriage breather. I needed some alone time to think things out, about myself, the marriage, and her. Mostly though, it really helps me to identify the things that I was responsible for, and that I can control. I got some really good info about some very revealing exercises to improve myself in my eyes, and hers. Honestly, looking that the lists of things that over the years she has asked me to change, do, or not do, and then listing sublists of that showing what I can do to improve/change those aspects of myself completely opened my eyes. This isn't about me taking the blame, because there are things about her that encouraged some of the behavior, and some things that she does that she will have to work on at some point for ME to be happy in this marriage too. But, I have to focus on what I can control, which is myself.

What was really interesting to me, was that these lists of bad habits/improvements that I can make, like 90% of them were things that I didn't start doing until after we were married...I got very complacent. I can clearly see where I started becoming that "roommate" instead of a husband. I know that women are wired differently than men. It seems obvious to me why her feelings changed, and what I need to do to become the man she fell in love with once again. For her, I expect she just knows how she feels, and doesn't really analyze or know why, just that she feels a certain way. I can respect that, and that I cannot force or explain any of it to her. This is all for me to improve myself, and if she sees it, and I can keep the promises to myself of improvement, then our marriage will not be the way it was, it will be much better.

I definitely had mixed emotions about moving out. It was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Not just leaving her, but leaving my HOME, and saying goodbye to the cat I left behind(I took one with me for company). However, she did see just how hard it was for me, and I could see in her eyes a margin of respect for me doing it.

The alone time will be fairly brief, maybe a week or two at most. After that we will start spending time on weekends together, maybe at first we will do some casual things that we are familiar with, like going to a winery, getting coffee and dinner in one of the local historical towns here. From there we talked about going out on our boat for trips, and probably I will start spending the weekends. I don't want to put romantic expectations on her right away, not until she is ready for that. I'm treating it almost like she is a woman that I am just getting to know and dating.

Once I am spending more weekends at the house, I will probably more or less move back in, and spend the weeknights there as well. I know that I need to be around her for her to see some of the things I am changing about myself. I will keep my apartment as an office and begin working from there, and coming home for dinner. No more of her feeling the need to dote on me for everything all of the time. It will be a more normal working situation. If that all works out, I will terminate the lease on this apartment, and rent an office for a much cheaper price to work out of.

All in all, I know there is so much I can improve upon. It was hard for me to write the things out, hard to admit some of it, but so much of it makes everything seem so crystal clear to me. I just hope that she will remember that man she fell in love with all those years ago.

But, you can think just as well at home, and it wouldn't harm your chances of recovery. You can identify the problems at home just as well. Separation is always bad for marriages unless there is abuse, ie: physical, verbal, adultery. It increases the risk that you will get divorced. "TRial separtations" for example, are only a trial for divorce, because the separation makes it much harder to ever recover the marriage.

Separation is not a recovery tactic, it is a divorce tactic.


How exactly have you ruled it out?


I am unclear why she would respect you for leaving your home? Just because something is "hard" does not mean it is wise or worthy of respect. I can go jump off my roof, that is very hard, but would you respect me for that? Do you believe it was a respectable action to abandon your marriage in its time of greatest need?

Do you know that many judges view what you did as abandonment and frown on this in divorce actions?

John, having no plan is a plan to fail. I see a lot of HOPE and WISHFUL thinking on your part that will avail you absolutely nothing.

If I were in your shoes, I would move back home and hand her a real plan for recovery. [the Basic Concepts] Your plan will never bring your marriage back. It will drive you further apart, making it harder to save your marriage.

Not having a plan? The second half of my previous post is the plan. It's not contingent, it's an outline, one that I think she is agreable to that we will discuss tomorrow.

Why do you keep hammering for details about how I researched about having an affair? This is getting a bit weird.

I see your hope that she will spend more time with you, but that is not a plan to recover your marriage. Hope is not a plan. A good plan to recover your marriage would consist of:

1. living together - you can't recover a marriage if you don't sleep together every night
2. learn to meet each others emotional needs
3. create an integrated, romantic lifestyle by scheduling 20-25 hours per week of undivided attention meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs
4. implementing all of the basic concepts into your lives


I think it is weird that you are being so cagey about it. Most people are not very effective about spying on their spouses and as a result, are not effective in uncovering the truth. Why are you being so cagey with us? This is an anonymous forum.

Ruling out an affair is absolutely critical in the advice we give you. We would be wasting our time and yours giving you advice for one set of problems [which you seem to be ignoring anyway] when the problem is something else entirely.

WE can't help you if you insist on following you own PLAN. You don't know how to save a marriage, after all. Do you?

John,

Welcome to MB. You don't have a plan according to MB. Most of us didn't end up here because we were excellent marriage counsel, we ended up here because we had a problem and we weren't the ones who knew how to fix it. I would suggest that you are not the best person to decide how to fix this, and that following MB advice is critical.

I've never heard of a woman who suddenly found her husband 'unattractive/unmanly' and asked him to move out. I'm sure Dr. Harley has never heard of it either. The answer to her falling out of romantic attraction is simple - start dating again. It really is that basic for us.

Now, what seems most likely, is that there is another man where she is getting the thrill from (even if it is from email/phone or whatever) and has re-written history.

The reason ML asks for how you checked as because nearly everyone who comes here with this story don't investigate properly, it is that simple. And those who do, well, they come back with unfortunate results. You said she couldn't possibly be doing anything - well, you aren't there.

Women do not respect a man who leaves the home. Women don't do that whole "cave" thing under stress. She has asked you to leave so she can speak to someone else.

I would appreciate it if you guys would base your advice on knowing that an affair has been ruled out. You are absolutely not helping me arguing with me over this. There is no such thing as an anonymous board - she could find this board just as easily as I did. I do not want to give her any ammunition in case this thing gets ugly in the end. You don't know me or my methods, but let's just say I have them, and they are very sophisticated and explore all of the avenues. Probably more so than anyone you know or could recommend here.

I get that moving out was a mistake. Most people and professionals have told me the same. I did not "cave" and leave, it was a she or me situation, and us being around each other at the moment was making things worse, and pushing her further away. I volunteered to be the one to move because of many reasons, logistical, mostly, but also for a place for me to gather myself and think, as well as have an office that I will use. Therefore that is why I am moving back in, just not immediately, but not too long from now either. I am going to have her sign a written document that states that she does not consider this move an abandonment.

I made it clear to her that being apart is temporary, and that we cannot solve the problems being apart. I haven't talked to her today, we will probably discuss this all tomorrow. Right now she is staying with her best friend. This wasn't easy on her either, not at all. I cannot force this with her, you all don't know her, there has to be discussion and some compromise on both side, IMO. The fact that she does want to try and work on rekindling the chemistry seems like at least a start.

John, your posts stopped me here: Married people don't move out and take "marriage breathers". You don't SEPARATE to figure out how to be TOGETHER.

John, we've seen these flags before. We want to make sure they are ruled out.

Please tell us how you have ruled out an affair.

John, we have heard this a mulitude of times; the poster will tell us "OH, there's NO WAY she is in an affair! I've checked all of that, and you people are paranoid!"

And then they come back and tell us that they have found confirmation of an affair.

Have you ever hit your wife?


With all due respect, how would you know if it is helpful or not? Just because you don't want to hear it? You are asking people who are in recovered marriages for help and you are telling us what is helpful. Really, Sir? Why do you think we are all so adamant that you rule out an affair? Is it because we are all crazy? Or is because we know the signs and can see them clearly here? I would really ponder on that point if I were you.

What do you think your doctor would say if you showed up with heart pain and told him "I would appreciate it if you would base your advice on knowing that a heart attack has been ruled out." Do you think a responsible person would go along with such a plan? I see nothing helpful about such an agreement.

Your doctor obviously can't help you unless he has all the pertinent facts, and it is the same with us. We can't help you one bit if we are not certain that an affair has been ruled out. We are volunteers here. We have our own marriages and families so we would be wasting our time trying to help someone who won't give us all the facts.

Unless your name is "John Is Shattered" I fail to see how she would find you. If John is your first name, you can change your screen name. [even though there are 5,000,000 people named John in the US.]


I think that is great you will have this discussion, but I think you might find that she is not going to allow you come back home. And since you have willingly moved out, she may be able to keep you out, since most courts view this as abandonment.

Y'all sound like a damn cult.

Either that or an agency to sell PI services. Seriously, you don't have a clue as to the technology, or maybe you think you do. I code this [censored]. There are no e-transmissions that I can't decipher. Do you understand?

Love deposits? Are you trying to sell dvd's and PI services?

You all sound like sheisters trying to prey on people trying to actually salvage real marriages.

Give me a break here. I've found much better advice from other areas. I don't subscribe to cannned, regimented crap like "love deposits", it's not realistic. No, I'm not some expert on saving marriages, but how many of you are? I just wanted some guidance and advice, and all I feel like have gotten is people trying to seduce me into buying some kind of service. What a joke. Seriously. Of all of the places I have checked out, this one is the most absolutely useless...Buh bye

I'm a computer programmer too and have always administered all the computers in our household. There was not a keystroke that anyone could have done on our network that I was not aware of.

You could have knocked me down with a feather when I discovered his affair via a single VoIP call made in error by him from a remote location overseas. He thought it was a landline, did not know that I could access the call logs.

He just had a secret Blackberry and would buy one for the current girlfriend. He knew to stay off the computers. So simple. Duh.

My marriage, sadly, was not able to be saved. I found this site after traditional marriage guidance counseling failed but it was not as good as it is now. What Dr Harley understands is that being in love and staying in love is a formula. That might sound weird and cultish until you start reading, then it gets suddenly very clear.

Then why the %#@& did you SUBSCRIBE to THIS site by registering a name and posting...

Here's an idea.....get to steppin'....



committed

Good luck to you then John, you will need it. You're not living with your wife and she says she doesn't love you, so I have no idea why you think you are better at saving a marriage then someone (Dr. Harley) who has saved many (including the posters here). You are making several strategic mistakes. When the truth comes out, please feel free to come back and we will be here to help you, although by then it might be too late.

BTW John when I first came here, I didn't like what people had to say either. Turns out I heard what I needed to hear, and it helped greatly. Humans naturally want to avoid the hardest work. If you can overcome that, you will benefit from it.

The main reason why people want to know how you know with certainty that there is no affair is because there may be some holes in your system plus the way you describe your wife's behavior. We are not saying she is having an affair, just that it has to be ruled out. There is a logical reason for this - if she has her heart set on someone else, her heart won't bet set on you and your marriage, especially if you're not living together.

Using terms like "love units" is a way to get a handle on what it takes to have a great marriage.

Hey, it's okay if you think all of this stuff is crap, but we're here to tell you that if you continue with the path you are on, it won't get you the results you think and hope it will.

I don't think it's crap. I think it's true that how you treat someone in most cases is a major determinate of how they feel about you. You treat them with care, respect, a listening ear, a concern for helping with their every day burdens (especially the ones you put on them), and tell them that they're worth your love and showing it, they will find you irresistible. If you dismiss their feelings, thoughts, perspectives, and turn a deaf ear to them, they will find you the opposite of irresistible.

The one place these ideas are most important to incorporate is in marriage. It takes about 20 hours a week providing this care to get to the irresistible stage. It takes 15 hours a week to maintain it. All the while, not making demands, not being disrespectful, not getting angry, and not making decisions regardless of any protests.

Have you been this way with your wife? Her perspectives are wrong? Her thoughts and feelings can be dismissed if they don't make sense to you? You know the best way to go?

Shysters. I believe 'shysters' is the word you're looking for.

I wish I had a nickel for every spouse who melted down like this, and then came back a few months later and said "You guys were right." I hope for the best for you, John, so I hope that isn't the case. But if it is, we'll be here. And we won't even say 'we told you so.'

That "crap" works!

I fear you are in for a very rude awakening, my friend. What you are going to find is that your wife is having an affair and that she won't allow you to move back home as you imagine. When that happens, come back and we will help you with you next steps. We will be here.

Guys, one thing your are right about, is that this cannot work by us living apart. I am moving back in tonight. Thanks, I'll keep you posted.

Good man!!

I see a light, here! Good job! Keep us posted.

Thanks to all of you, and I'm sorry for being so petulant. Life is a little confusing at the moment, so it's easy for me to be defensive(another issue I REALLY need to work on, btw).

I am actually home now(she is still out with her friends until tomorrow). I'm not sure how she's going to take it. I brought my cat home(she was really not doing well being away from home and her sister, lots of crying and hiding). I brought stuff to stay the night, and will talk to her and convince her that me being here is the only real way to work on the marriage. It won't be easy, she is quite stubborn, but you guys are totally right, you can't work on these things apart. But, I am not taking no for an answer. She can't tell me that I can't live in my own house.

For starters, a good chunk of the things I am improving about myself deal with my daily interactions with her, and our routines, and life together. How would she see me making changes if I am not there for that? Space is fine, and I will create some with keeping the apartment for an office for work, and I do want to tell her that we do need to start having more time with our friends, etc, instead of doing everything together all of the time.

I know I can't force her to act any way at all, or react any way at all, I will stress to her that I am only asking her to try the RIGHT way, and that we both need to be patient. Things took years to get this way, it won't take years to fix, but it won't be overnight either.

That is excellent, John!! Good job. I hope it goes well. Where is she this weekend?

And I want to caution you about working apart and having time with your friends. That is good to be with your friends, but only if it doesn't take away from your marriage and you are together when you visit these friends. For example, there is nothing wrong with going with friends sometimes *IF* you have already spent 20+ hours per week out together with each other. [no friends or family along] The MOST important thing is spending time together.

When you fall back in love, you will be stingy about spending time with your friends. My DH and I find that we don't like sharing our alone with others that much. We are very stingy with our couple time.

And hopefully when you say "friends," you mean COUPLES, right? It is very important that your leisure time be spent together.

Working together all day is good for your marriage unless you are lovebusting each other. In that case, you would advised to stop that and work on being as pleasant and enjoyable as possible. The healthiest, most romantic marriages often work together. If you listen to Dr Harley and his wife on the radio, they are together all the time.

Guys - bad news. Seems you were closer to the truth with your suspicions. She lied about the weekend plans, and spent it with another man, one that we had met at a marina a couple of weeks ago.

Could a mod please delete this thread, I will start a new one, I need to "vague" this up a bit to protect myself.

Why not change your screen name to a more discreet name [you can do this via your preferences] and have the thread moved to Surviving an Affair? Hit mod notify and ask them to move it to SAA.

It would be very decent of you to apologise to all the people who posted to help you, for writing the above. It was rude and ungracious.

John,

Y'all sound like a damn cult.

Either that or an agency to sell PI services. Love deposits? Are you trying to sell dvd's and PI services?

We hardly are trying to dominate your life or make you into an unthinking drone, that is an unfair statement.

I think most people suggested a PI based on your statements about your financial status, with the understanding that a PI is much cheaper than divorce, and that the PI will help you end the emotional stain that not knowing has introduced into your life.

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma - did you see his psot above saying that he has discovered an affair?

That is the reason I suggested he apologise.

So John,

You have done #1 above. Good. Now time to execute the next steps. Good luck.

Yeah, this was the dead giveaway of her having an affair... Sorry, bud.

AGG

I apologized I thought up further.

Anyway, I am terribly sorry for all of that. It's all been very confusing and mortally painful to me. Somehow now I feel much stronger, and I honestly and thinking that she does not deserve me. She certainly is nothing close to the sweet, thoughtful, caring woman I married. She is more lost than I am.

I don't think there is any saving the marriage at this point. She is not behaving like a normal, rational person. She is covering her massive guilt with excuses, that is quite obvious.

There is a strong likelihood that you can save your marriage if you follow this plan. If you decide you don't want to save it, that is fine too. But this is certainly not hopeless. Yes, she is lost, but she can come back.

That is how every person in an affair behaves. Dr. Harley calls it "the fog." It's just about the same as a heroin addiction.

There have been many posters on this site in successful recovered marriages who used to be in exactly that same fog!

You are right. She really does not deserve you. What she has done to you is the most painful thing any human being could do to another.

The question is, going forward, what do YOU deserve? What do YOU want? If she can be persuaded to follow the plan here, the two of you can have a recovered marriage that would bring you great happiness. If you have any children, this would probably be the best possible outcome for them as well.

The decision is yours.

I posted:


And you posted:


You really watched all of those videos?

If not, I strongly recommend you watch at least the first one, so you can gain some understanding about what is happening:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1001_infidelity0.html

Eric,
I'm sorry you got the news, but at least you now know the truth. She is having an affair, and that is why things changed so suddenly a couple of weeks ago.

As long as the affair is alive, you will have no chance at recover, so your #1 focus is on ending the affair. Start with exposure. Read ML's tag link for info on how to do this.

She is DEEP in the fog right now. Getting her out will be hard, and will take a lot of time. It usually doesn't happen over night. That is why exposure is so important. Dr. Harley says that it is the single most important step that a betrayed spouse can take to save his or her marriage.

Once the affair is exposed to 1) your family, 2) your wife's family and friends, and 3) the POSOM's family and friends, you can begin the rest of plan a.

Regarding whether or not she is worth it, I remember you writing this:

"We were always like "two peas in a pod", loved doing things together, from walking, biking, going on romantic trips to Mexico or Niagra, Vegas, Atlantic City, you name it. We always had a blast, and it seemed to me, and everyone else that we were very much in love, and a "poster couple". We saw eye to eye on most everything, from politics to staying fit, and what we wanted our life to be. We were cutesy with each other, even sang goofy little songs to each other, even up till now. We had wonderful traditions that we'd do for Christmas, and other special occasions. In short, it seemed like we were in a wonderful state of bliss, and never once had I thought our marriage would EVER end."

Just know that you can get that back, and have an even better marriage, if you follow the plan. There are no guarantees, but for many of us it has happened. Somewhere under all that fog, the wife who used to love you is there.

When I discovered my FWW's affair, I felt as you do right now. But now that we have recovered, I am very, very grateful that we have saved it. Had I followed my emotions, and not a plan, I would be divorced right now, and my wife, two daughters, and I would be miserable. I owe this program so much. I hope you carry the same debt one day.

Good luck.

So, Eric, now you know. (You don't have to give me my nickel. )
What do you want to do?

She really freaked out when she found out I was spending the night and not going back. For the first time showing emotions, crying, etc. She sounded like a petulant little girl who didn't get her way, which is precisely what she was.

She is still not admitting to any physical interaction, but she finally admitted that she wants to start dating him once she moved out. Not sure if she's telling the truth or not, because obviously admitting that would be adultery and I'd have her over a log in the divorce if I chose to.

I do still love her, but quite honestly, I huge weight is off of my chest. I don't see her the same at all now though. She's a stranger, and I'm not sure that I would want her back. Probably just still raw from the pain, but strangely, I am calm, relaxed, not worrying about it at all. She is insistent on moving out(she's going to move into the apartment I rented, lol). Mostly because she can't wait to get to it I guess. The funny thing is, the guy is a total douche, and somewhat of an idiot to boot. And yes, I exposed it to everyone, which really made her mad, but hey, too freaking bad, eh? I also told the guy that he should stay out of the situation between my wife and I, and he went off on this tirade with threats of violence. Naturally I saved the exchange and showed it to my wife to show her just how great this guy was.

At this point, I've seen a lawyer, and talked about my rights, etc, and basically we are moving forward with asset division, etc with the goal of a divorce in a year. Right now I just want her out of the house and I can chill with my cats and get back to working like I need to and start planning my financial life without her, which will be rather tight at first. Trying to do it amicably. After she's out, maybe I'll look at those steps, etc, right now I just need her out of my life for a bit.

You might want to rethink that strategy, my friend. Do you want to furnish an affair lair for your wife and the OM? Really? Because that is what you will be doing if you give her the keys to your apartment.

And what did you do exactly when you exposed? Did you expose it to the OM's family? Can you find his facebook page?

To whom did you expose and what did you say?

You can very probably kill this affair and save your marriage. Are you interested?

Yes, I am sure they spent the weekend reading scripture together. I assure you they have slept together and her affair did not start after you left. It is the REASON she wanted you out.

And I want to applaud you for not caving when she flipped out when she understood you weren't leaving! That is when many men crumble and cave!

Because now you KNOW. It's a relief to betrayeds to understand what they're really dealing with. LOL. Typical wayward-speak. She wouldn't be trashing her marriage unless she had her eye on something she considers 'better'. So, do this. Get her out of the house, and then see what you want to do after that. Don't decide on divorce either way right now.

Eric,

Do not let her live in that apartment. Don't support any aspect of her life financially while she is having this affair. She needs to find her own place, and she can pay the lease herself.

See if the manager will get you out of the lease, and let him or know that she is not allowed in the unit.

Are you willing to fight for your marriage and enter Plan A, or do you want to call it quits and divorce her?

I made her change the lease, she is paying for all of it.

Right now, I am calling it quits. Working on the asset division. I think I am better off. The memories we had hurt like hell, but I feel like a whole man again. She is definitely not happy about moving into the apartment and me keeping both cats here. I am not dividing those cats, both of whom I love very much. She should have to suffer as I have.

Did you watch those videos? Get some understanding about what is happening.

BTW, it's completely typical for your wife to freak out like that. Suddenly you weren't being cooperative and controllable, so she blew up at you to try to make you be controllable again. Good job on not caving.

Didn't get a chance to watch yet, but today, as we were packing her stuff, for the first time at all, I saw her break down, and start having serious doubts about what she was doing.

We'll see what happens, I am resigned to it being over and have got things in motion, but just taking my time in doing anything yet that is too hard to undo(i.e refi'ing the house, etc).

Eric,
As MB said, don't make a rash decision.

This is a process and it takes a long, long time to recover. One of the biggest mistakes betrayed spouses make is they expect results fast and they expect the process to reach a quick resolution. That doesn't happen with infidelity. It often takes a long, long time for the fogged out wayward spouse to end the affair, and it takes a long, long time for the betrayed spouse to recover from the immense pain and anger of the betrayal.

Keep in mind that many marriages have been recovered using Dr. Harley's principles. They really work and you can have a marriage that is happier than you ever thought possible. Also know that you will get past the resentment and hurt over time if your WW gives you just compensation. Of course, it is your choice.

My recommendation is to let some time pass before calling it quits.

That's my plan. I'm resigned to it being over, but I'm not writing her off completely yet. Mostly now just working on making the financial burdens are fair while we are apart(insurance, cable, other expenses, etc).

Eric, regardless of whether you decide to divorce or not, you should expose her affair. You don't want her to lie to people about the reasons for the divorce and most importantly, if you do get divorced, you don't want her to be able to introduce the OM as someone she met after you broke up. Your family and friends need to know he is the cause of your breakup. Because of that, many people will not allow him to darken their doorstep due to this affair.

The WORST thing you can do is keep the affair a secret. That is bad for your wife and you.

Eric,

You need to expose this affair especially on OM side, include words like adultery on your exposure email. What will happen is that they will feel a sense of shame when they are together and will wonder who told whom. Instead of feeling strongly in love they will being to feel that their affair partner is the cause of their shame. Affairs have a short life and a much shorter one when exposed.

Expose suddenly and completely without threats or warnings to anyone!

God Bless
Gamma

Oh, yeah, I guess I forgot to mention that, yeah, I exposed it big time

Then the guy had the balls to actually threaten me, which was a little amusing.

Read the Plan A and B things, makes pretty good sense, I am pretty much doing those, though by accident, LOL.

I think the biggest thing that is that I didn't cave in to her wanting me to go back to the apartment. I was NOT going to do anything on her terms, she lost that power with the events of this weekend.

I'm pretty patient, most of the time. I'm going to spend the next weeks going to ballgames, going out on the boat with my friends, and maybe a casual date or two.

A casual date or two? Aren't you still married?

A casual date or two? Are you kidding, man?

This doesn't really make sense. You can't have been doing the Plan A things AND Plan B things. One requires actions to win your spouse over and permanently change habits and the other requires no contact with your spouse.

How long have you been neglecting your marriage and wife? It seems so cavalier that you can say you love your wife and be so dedicated to working on your marriage and then so easily thinking about some casual dates just several days later, even in the face of finding out about her affair. I understand how one can be tempted to have a revenge affair because of the hurt, but this doesn't sound like that. It sounds like the result of being emotionally divorced for a long time.

It's Dr. Harley's advice to not date until a divorce is final.

I wouldn't say I have been "neglecting" her or the marriage, but I would say that I was taking many things for granted, and feeling as if I no longer had to work at it to be an appealing person to her. I'd say probably half of our 10 years or more.

What I was saying in regards to Plan A and B, is that I initially did some of the Plan A things, but it's time for Plan B now, which is where we are. No contact other than if it's for financial matters, she is on her own now.

As for the "casual dates", ok, I get that. Maybe I hold off on any of that. I didn't say I was going to start dating anyone this weekend or anything. The truth is I love my wife and do want the marriage to continue, I don't want to be with anyone else.

Has she filed for divorce?

I can see part of the reason why your marriage fell apart.


If you want the marriage to continue, we can help you with that. Your marriage can very probably be saved. But not the way you are doing it.

Until you are divorced you cannot date. If you start dating while still married then this is the wrong place to come for advice. Marriage Builders is about building stronger marriages and rebuilding broken marriages into strong ones. If that is your goal, you are in the best place. If your goal is to further destroy your marriage by dating then there are other places where you will find support.

No, no - please - make no mistake, I want to save this marriage!

I'm not going to date anyone - it's not something I even think I could do anyway. I'm just still scared, confused and have no idea what I am really supposed to be doing. I'm reading all of the stuff on here, so I'm getting ideas, and am going to try my hardest to do things right. I know I posted some things that made it sound like "i give up", but my emotions are all over the place between anger, resentment, sadness, you name it. My mind is trying to survive this, and protect itself, a lot of raw instincts keep kicking in.

Great! We can help you do this. First, I would get the book Surviving an Affair asap so you know what you are dealing with. It is on kindle and you can get it on kindle for PCs if you don't have a kindle or IPAD.

Secondly, I would do your best to try to persuade her not to leave. If you are separated, her affair is going to grow and thrive. It will be harder to save your marriage. So, see if you can stop that train. I would write her a love letter that says in effect that a) you want to have a happy, romantic, passionate marriage with her, b) you are willing to correct the mistakes of the past IF she will end her affair. Give her something like this:


Please click on the notify button and ask the mods to move this thread to the Surviving an Affair forum.

Does your wife know this? Your actions are more like revenge.

Your wife wants to see you fight for her.

The only thing going on here is that you have switched residences while continuing the separation.

Have you read this:

We understand. Most of us have been there, in one way or another.

If you want to save your marriage - first off, calm down! You need to stay focused and calm and rational to follow this plan. If your emotions have you all over the map so badly that you can't follow the steps exactly, you won't make it. So try to focus and use your rationality to override your emotions for a bit, even though underneath it is definitely raw and hurting worse than you ever thought possible.

Dr. Harley often suggests betrayed spouses get their doctor to prescribe an antidepressant for awhile after D-Day. An antidepressant has the effect of evening out the highs and lows of your emotions, giving you the chance to keep your wits about you and do what needs to be done. I used one myself when we were having trouble and I was too emotional to keep working - and it did the trick. My doctor even echoed just what Dr. Harley said, stating that he has seen a lot of patients who need something like this for a short time "so they can do what needs to be done" in a crisis.

The not leaving train departed already, she moved out. There is no talking her into coming back here to work on it in the same house. Believe me, I tried.

I actually did write her a letter nearly identical to that, as well as numerous in-person conversations, but she still insisted on a separation.

I think I'm doing pretty much everything in Plan A, the only thing is, we are separated, this isn't going to happen with us living together(I want it to be living together, but it's just not possible to convince her to not be separated).

I really don't need meds, I feel ok in that regard, feel pretty strong. Been working a lot, no worries there.

You registered six days ago and have 22 posts.

There is no way you even know what all is involved in Plan A, yet.

Slow down, friend. Get educated.

Who did you expose to and what did you say? Is OM married or have a girlfriend?

How did you find out? Did your wife return home with him? What happened?

You need to work with us and give us more information if you want constructive help in recovering your marriage.

Have you watched those videos I linked to, yet, before pronouncing your Plan A perfect?

I notice that the first time I posted them, you replied "I read all that," even though you hadn't actually viewed the videos. You probably hadn't read all the articles, either.

It sounds to me like you have a tendency to quickly reply but to skip the important educational materials. This board really can't help you if you aren't going to do the work yourself to LEARN Dr. Harley's plan "Marriage Builders" so that you can USE that plan to save your marriage.

If you are committed to LEARNING and USING the plan, we can help you greatly with that!

Melody put a lot of thought and time in her post only to have you come back and tell us that you have already done that.

It would have been helpful to Melody to have known that so she could have saved herself the time.

That is really frustrating when you are trying to help someone. Posters will stop replying to your thread if they find that they are just wasting their time.

I found out when over the weekend, she wasn't where she told me she was going to be, and I figured out where she was due to a hunch(I could go into that, but it's not really important or relevant - it has to do with cell phone reception areas). Bottom line is I caught her, I confronted her, and she admitted to being with that person and spending the night on the boat. She wouldn't admit to physical stuff, but did admit that she was in communication with him all these weeks since we met the POS, and that she wants to continue to see him. I have made it VERY clear how I don't find it acceptable, and how it is devastating my life and our marriage.

I exposed it to family and friends. Everyone knows.

I'm sorry if I haven't read everything just yet, this is all only a week old, there is a lot to read here, and a ton of other things I have to take care of otherwise given the situation. On top of all of that, my job has placed an exhorbitant amount of pressure on me(basically the fate of 50 people's jobs is riding on my small team to produce a deliverable in the near future).

I'll read more of it soon, I promise. Thanks to everyone that has been trying to help me, I'm going to focus on using this site from here on out with regards to this, seems like the best advice is coming here.

You need to ask for their support in saving your marriage by using their influence to get your wife to do the right thing.

It is crucial to expose the OM. Without that, he is free to pursue your wife because no one is watching him or knows the truth about his adultery. His friends and family will welcome your wife because they think she is separated and divorcing. They need to know that HE is assaulting someone else's family and is the reason for the separation.

Is he married? Does he work at the marina?



She already knows that. Exposure and having to explain it to her peers (dose of reality) will get you farther than trying to educate her.

I wanted to go back and mention, Plan B is not likely to save a man's marriage. It's for protecting you from unendurable abuse. If you want to save your marriage, you have to stay in Plan A. If it starts to feel unendurable, try the antidepressants before moving to Plan B.

Right on.

Question - the OM threatened with me with physical violence in writing. I'm pretty sure I can get a restraining order against him if I wanted. He spends a lot of time at this marina because his father keeps a boat there. This is a place that I hang out quite a bit at too. Should I get the restraining order, or is that not a great idea and in violation of Plan A? I mean, honestly, I could just avoid going there this summer, but should I be making things harder on them having this affair, or does that seem vindictive and petty? It's not like I'm really afraid of him.

Oh - more info on him - he is not married. His family is aware now.

I would get the restraining order. If you are lucky, the judge will also order him to stay away from your wife.

Plan A does not require you to be nice to the affair partner.

O.k, will do.

Have you watched the videos yet?

Not yet, I did read most of the articles though. Busy work day/night/all nighter - but I do plan on watching them first chance I get, thanks.

One thing I am doing is trying to slow down all of this. It's been a real whirlwind week. Tomorrow I'm going to a ballgame, saturday taking my friends out on my boat. Things that I can look forward too and make myself happy. Not doing anything quick and rash(and so far I really haven't, other than stupidly deciding initially to be the one to move out and rent that apartment).

I'd show his written threats to her family. That will warm up his welcome!

Also notify the marina. Perhaps they might consider moving his families boat away from yours (and to a less desirable location as a side effect). I'm sure they don't want his kind of trouble.

Eric,

Isn't making terroristic threat a crime you can get OM hauled off to jail for?

God Bless
Gamma

Yes. When I was a teen, I went to juvenile jail for making terroristic threats

Update:

I did write another letter to her, based on how Melodylane wrote it. I don't know if she has seen it just yet, but she will certainly by this evening.

We are still separated, she is still seeing the OM, and living in the apartment. I've exposed everything, I don't know that it will help(I feel like her moral compass is completely gone right now), though her father said she better never bring the [censored] to his house. Thursday I went with her father to a ballgame, and we talked about it some. Everyone in her family feels like she is making a huge, selfish mistake. As far as the OM's family is concerned, they all are aware too, and have apparently been from the start. I think they even condone it. They are a bunch of scumbags, TBH. Our friends know, and all think she is being an idiot.

That aside, I've been able to control myself around her, not get too upset, and judgmental. She knows what she is doing is destroying me, and everything we built over the last 13 years, so I try to stay strong around her when I do see her. I've been trying to spend time with friends, but they aren't always available. Yesterday I took my boat out by myself, because I thought it would be good to do, but soon found myself feeling lonely and depressed, and remembering all of the good times we had on it together. A couple of times I just fell apart and sobbed below deck. Eventually I pulled myself together and brought the boat back where I docked and cleaned up and got dinner alone in the marina. I had a few beers, and made a couple of new friends, went back to my boat and slept. I woke up feeling worse than ever, and came home and spent some time with my cats. Being home, and seeing them made me feel a bit better.

I still can't believe she is doing this, and that it ever happened. I know I played a role in pushing her away from me, but not once ever did I think the marriage was in trouble, and I never thought that she would ever cheat. I feel like my life is a living death right now. I don't want to, or think I need to, go on medication. I do need to mourn all of this, I think it is natural. As long as I can stay strong in front of her, I'll be ok.

She was supposed to stop by yesterday and pick up some of our furniture, but she never showed up. Tonight I'm going to meet a friend for dinner and watch the game. I feel like each day is some new challenge, but the weekends are brutal.

Unless YOU have personally spoken to his family they do not know what is really going on. They only know the wayward spin that went something like this: "WW has left her abusive husband is getting a divorce.[or is already divorced] In the meantime we have started a new relationship."

Trust me that they did not "expose" the truth. This is why YOU need to expose the affair. And trust me, you were painted as an "abusive husband."

Sorry for all the pain you're experiencing. We understand what you're going through. I remember breaking down frequently and weeping when my FWW started her affair. Church was a big trigger for tears. Had to close the door of my office on many occasions because it just hits unexpected.

Exercise was very helpful, and friends and family helped a lot too.

Your boat trip and dinner at the marina may not have worked out for you, but you had the right idea. Keep doing things that will make you happy. Follow the plan, and know that this too shall pass.

Eric,

As far as the OM's family is concerned, they all are aware too, and have apparently been from the start. I think they even condone it

The fact that the OM threatened you means he has someone he doesn't want you to contact, could be his grandmom, or son, or business associates, doesn't matter contact them all. There is some chance he is still married but "separated"

God Bless
Gamma

Ok - maybe I wasn't clear - his "family" consists of a brother and father. I have no access to anyone else he might be related to, or any of his friends. Not everything is so cut and dried. These people are almost like gypsies.

He threatened me because he is a hot-headed [censored] who thought he could intimidate me after I told him to stay clear of my wife. Big mistake on his part for a lot of reasons I don't care to elaborate on at this time. He's not very educated, and not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Part of me believes that she is involved with him, because there is no future with a guy like this. He really has all the traits that over the years she said she openly despised in people.

But, I digress...

She seems to be wavering slightly on all of this. Before she was so adamant that it was all over, and that we were divorcing, lately she has been in the "a separation is what I need for now" kind of mindset. I had been moving forward with refi'ing the house, and she asked me to hold off. Not sure what to make of it, or if it gives me any hope. But it is a change. Honestly, me, her family and friends, think she is highly confused right now.

On another note, I've been doing well in controlling my emotions around her when I have seen her, and stopped questioning it all, etc. I wrote and recorded a song for her(it wasn't some "oh please come back" sappy stuff either, but still romantic in a way), and she seemed really impressed with it. She actually even smiled for the first time since all of this started. Did I mention I am somewhat of a total badass guitar player? Ok, maybe not that great, but I kinda doubt OM is writing songs for her. Trying to be nice, and through actions remind her of the kind of man she fell in love with all those years ago.

Very good!!

You are in a position to compete with that scumbag and WIN. Most cheaters "affair down," by the way, so we are not surprised to hear this. If I were you, I would stick to this plan: