Hi all,
Thanks for your counsel and support last year (MelodyLane, BrainHurts et al ref http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=166442&Number=2645999#Post2645999). Time for Plan D.

Recap and update: After discovering her affair, I made WW42 (WW41 then) leave home, and I kept DSS12 and DD7; months later WW42 came and insisted on taking DSS12, against his and my will; they then lived with OMPOS for a number of months, after which OMPOS & WW42 broke up acrimoniously* - with DSS12's schooling taking another hit. Meantime, I've had a cancer scare and subsequent surgery, but am soldiering on with DD8 and rebuilding my business.

DD8, I'm glad to say, is doing well - in school, at sports and music etc.

DSS13 is growing more distant, and is facing the prospect of attending four schools in two years. He's lost his sporting mojo, and the passion for science that we shared, and we see less and less of him.

WW42 is broke, and begging me for a) a loan, and b) a settlement (ie divorce settlement). She insists she doesn't "want the house" (which I'd bought years before meeting her - not that UK law takes notice of that), but is pleading that I offer her "something reasonable" so she can get back on her feet. She cries tears of so-called "regret", and says she'd rather not come to me for a penny (because of her guilt and how bad she feels), but has nowhere else to turn.

WW42 also says she'd rather we did our deal before involving courts and lawyers, to minimise legal fees and court time. On balance I think it would be in our best interests to deal privately up-front, but I'm stuck on the terms and the whys and wherefores of Plan D. Please, please advise.

Many thanks & best wishes,
Igi Iroko.

*PS: WW42 is apparently involved in Small Claims Court action against OMPOS, over who gets furniture/furnishings etc...

Welcome back, igiiroko.

I advise you to get legal advice on this. You need to ask what a court would order you to pay after an eight-year marriage with one child. It is no longer as easy as it once was for women to claim a large share of pre-marital assets after having been married for a short time, but the existence of your daughter is important. A judge would award your wife some of the assets. Only a lawyer could advise how much. It would then be up to you to make her an offer that is more advantageous to you, but not so low that she goes to court and is awarded a high sum.

A one-off legal consultation with a high-street lawyer will cost you about �100 in the UK. That's well worth it, i would say.

I don't know what the laws are in the UK but I would start by writing out a list of what YOU want...you have the upper hand here. Agree with SC to see an attorney but write out a list first so you go in there with specific questions for your situation. Do you want any sort of visitation with DSS12? I would not present WW with your best offer upfront...leave room for negotiations.

And do not loan her money or let her tears affect your judgement. Her "guilt" will be short lived.

I didn't take into account the fact that you have custody of your daughter at the moment.

Could you tell me why that is? I'm puzzled because, if she had wanted her freedom, she could have asked you to keep your stepson as well, but instead she has taken him and left you with your daughter. Have you any idea what her reasoning is? Is she likely to leave you with your daughter for the longer term?

As pat of a divorce settlement, whether you do it yourself online or whether you get legal representation, a judge will want to be satisfied about the welfare of both children. A judge won't necessarily honour any prior mutual agreement.

If you come to an informal agreement as part of the settlement that your daughter should live with you, then a judge would be likely to say that you must stay in the house with her, and it should only be sold and the assets divided if you cohabit or when your daughter leaves full-time education (right up to the end of university). The division of assets at that time could be something like 60% to you and 40 to your wife. You could offer to buy your wife out now, and perhaps even get a more favourable settlement on the grounds that she will not be required to pay you child support, that would be a good thing.

If, however, she decides that she wants to have custody of your daughter (and after all, she has her own son, so how much harder could it be to have both?), that situation could be reversed, with your being required to move out and take 40% of the assets only when your daughter leaves education.

I don't think it is as simple as saying that you have the upper hand. I know she left her daughter with you and this and her affair make her seem feckless, but I don't think that means that a judge would award you custody on that basis. In a battle, your wife would use the argument that a girl needs her mother, and her affair and feckless lifestyle are over. So what does she want to do about your daughter?

Alternatively: is reconciliation out of the question for you? What about her - does she show any signs of wanting to go back to you?

It's a horrible situation when a WS appears to lose her mind even more than is normal, and moves in with OP and ends up destitute, but if you want to avoid your daughter having to live jointly with you on the one hand and her mother and some horrible addict on the other, then reconciliation is the best way to protect her (and your stepson). What is the possibility of this?

I was not implying that custody of the children would remain as is. However, a judge should consider that DD is in a stable environment compared to DSS who is moving from school to school and has already seen one live-in bf move out. If WW really wants to avoid court and the cost of a legal battle, I do think BH holds the upper hand. WW is already begging him for money. A WW can always be difficult regardless of what she says now so I would move swiftly and come up with a reasonable offer given the circumstances.

I asked my then-STBX what he wanted so I had a starting point and could also get an idea of what he considered reasonable. Has WW offered you any specifics or have you asked her to give you some type of offer? I wouldn't point out anything to her but you may want to ask what she had in mind and see if you are ok with what she wants...get it in writing. If she feels she is getting what she wants (or most of it) she may be willing to hurry things along but I would not offer up info to her.

When you do speak to an attorney he can tell you what is likely, what is statutory law, etc. My attorney did not negotiate anything with my ex on my behalf. I only used the attorney for drafting documents and guidance through the legal process. My ex never retained an attorney and wanted to save money.

I see your point now. I do agree that he has the upper hand at the moment. I think you're also saying that if he wants to keep it he needs to be "reasonable", and I agree.

OP, it doesn't seem reasonable that you have to give her anything at all, but if you make a very low offer and stick to it when she protests, she could end up working out that a court battle is actually in her favour.

In 2011, I was quoted possible costs of �7,000 if I retained a lawyer for a divorce. (This was after my last D Day that year, when I was considering divorce.)

If you have assets in the house worth, at a conservative estimate given UK house prices, �50,000, then she might work out that it is better to lose �7,000 in legal fees in order to gain 40% of the balance. And in fact, she doesn't have to use a lawyer to gain those fees. All she has to do is petition for a divorce online, and the judge will work out what is fair. I should have thought that after a 7 year marriage, with a child, (in other words, what she will argue is a genuine, although short marriage, not an immigration scam or an attempt to fleece a man of his assets by marrying), a judge will award her close to 40% of the assets, even if he does not give her custody of the daughter.

You have to work out the various scenarios and decide on a path that might not be the most advantageous financially, but is advantageous with regard to keeping your daughter. That's why you need a lawyer a least once.

Thanx, SC and BR. Your points are so very cogent.

WW42 is happy to leave DD8 with me indefinitely, so long as she has reasonable contact (e.g. alternate weekend stays). WW42 also seems to want to keep DSS13 with her, and I can only speculate as to why: as a political point to demonstrate that she can "be a mother"; as theoretical leverage in order to get custody of DD8; or to address her previous accusations of my having "poisoned" her son's mind against her.

In the informal arrangement we have, WW42 spends Saturdays with DD8. On alternate Saturday mornings, we drive up to London, where I drop DD8 off with her mother for the day, and pick her up in the evening. On the other alternate Saturdays, WW42 is meant to travel down to where we live, pick up DD8 and spend the day with her, then bring her back in the evening. In reality, WW42 seldom comes down on her weekends: she pleads lack of funds, although that does not seem to impede her social life or get in the way of trips to Paris or up country. DD8 has had no overnight stays with WW42, because WW42 has been living with OMPOS and now with one of OMPOS's female friends. Along with DSS13.

SC, I like your point about buying WW42 out of her share and her child-maintenance obligation. I also agree that a �100 legal consultation would be a worthwhile investment. BR, I like your point about asking WW42 for what figure she has in mind, as I was not inclined to name a figure (let alone a best offer) first.

In the immediate term, she is in a bit of a fix because her car has broken down so she is asking me for a loan of �600 for repairs. If I lent her that, I'd of course take it off the settlement figure. I've already lent her �300-�400. I'm just not wanting to be too much of a soft-touch: all those years back, while she was secretly alley-catting with OMPOS and others, I was her regular ATM. Even in recent months, I've given her the odd sum "so she could take DSS13 out" (because she's called crying, broke).

I'll definitely talk to a lawyer on Monday re settlement ideas. Re the loan, I'll take advice from folks here.

Many thanks,
igiiroko.

Document her contact with DD8. WWs have been known to change their minds and go for the throat in regards to custody and potential cash cow that is child support.

DSS13...unfortunately, I don't think you have any legal right to him.

Also, if she decides to apply for custody she will change her lifestyle. She knows, or her lawyer will tell her, what a judge would make of it. She will apply for social housing for her and her son so that she has a decent place of her own in which to live, she will not move any boyfriends in and she will try and get a job, at least until she has a decision.

What figure she has in mind for what? The house? Support?

I wouldn't ask her for a "figure." I would be more vague and see what she offers up regarding asset division, support $, visitation, etc.

Email her something like this:

WW, I agree that it would be best if we could iron out a divorce settlement without spending a ton of money on attorneys and court costs. I do not want to fight and hope we can come to an agreement for everyone's sake, especially the children. They have been through enough. Please get back to me and let me know what you specifically have in mind. Thank you.

igr

And again...I would not loan her anything. I don't know about the UK but if you haven't filed for legal separation or divorce, a spouse usually has access to all marital property and funds. Informal agreements don't mean squat. Do not assume you can take a loan off the divorce settlement. In the US, she would have had a right to the money and doesn't owe you anything.

Do not give her $$$. She is where she is because of her own choices...she can save herself.

ETA: And if/when, she responds with a list of wants, don't respond with anything other than a thank you and you will look it over. You don't have to engage right away. Take it to your consultation.

Good luck!

Welcome back igiiroko, sorry it's come to this, but you're getting wonderful advice.

Is your WW saying she wants to try and work something out with you and her or a settlement?

Thanks all - awesome again!

@SC, @BH: WW is not showing signs of wanting reconciliation - but then, I've made it clear it's not an option for me.

@BR: I like your draft email.

When I told her tonight "I can't help you out", she took it to mean that I didn't have the funds, and replied "well, if you can't afford �600 now, how will you be able to afford the bigger thing?".

I'm wondering therefore if she'll be more aggressive in court/pushing for legal settlement if I don't lend her the money: not out of spite, but simply in terms of capitalising on my "need" to potentially liquidate other assets in order to settle.

Welcome back, BH.. :-).

If the well runs dry she will go for the throat. I really would not put anything past a WW who needs money.

@KR: that's kinda my thinking, yeah. She's pleading now and acting all needy, but her tone could change - even if not from within, then from others who may influence her thinking. But I suppose even if I lend her the cash, she could still bare the claws.

@SC: in terms of changing her lifestyle, she's currently renting a room in a house owned/rented by a friend of OMPOS. WW shares that room and bed with DSS13. That's why the question of DD8 staying over is a non-starter. WW says she's living from hand-to-mouth on her wages.

Are you documenting everything that she does about DD8? I would stop giving her anything but be prepared for those claws.

Thanks, friend.

The boy is 13 and sleeps in the same bed as his mom? Do they not have a couch to sleep on?

Her tone will change and the claws will come out. Many BSs make the mistake thinking that if they are "nice" to their stbxWS, that they will act civil and stop being crazy. That does not happen...they get hostile and act worse; even if not immediately.

You still need to jot down a list of what you want. What is negotiable and what is a dealbreaker? Separate custody issues from property division.

Hah hah hah.
So the affair shack up didn't work.
Well good. I thought of the Hank Williams song " Your Cheating Heart" when I read your update.

Do not give her anything. Stop giving her money.
Get a lawyer. File immediately.
Call social services for the step son.
Its possible she may he willing to sell him to you. You may want to think about paying her off if she surrenders parental rights.
Otherwise let her become destitute.
My ex wife is a bum also.

I agree with Jedi_Knight -- you may be able to get her to sign over your stepson. You would be much better for him than she is -- and considering a lot of things you could be one of the few who are likely to get a stepkid in custody.

If there is a dad in the pic (or even not in the pic but alive), I doubt DDS would be signed over to his stepdad. Where is DDS's father?

Do you even want any sort of custody with DDS? Visitation?

My uncle, in the state of California years ago, married a woman (his first wife) she had a daughter that he adopted. They had a child together.
His wife became a stripper and basically just a whore.
In those days the mother always got the kids.

She didn't like the kids but she liked the child support.
So he made a deal. He paid her child support all those years and in exchange she let him keep her daughter.

Today the daughter is a married Christian woman with children of her own, living a clean moral life.

Boys fail miserably when raised by single moms.
I have young boys come to my house on the weekends. We often take a couple neighbor kids hiking or to other events.
They need a father figure.
That's something to carefully consider.

@KR: Thanx. WW calls DD8 3-4 nights a week, and currently sees her 2-3 weekends a month.

@BH: There is a couch downstairs, but it belongs to the friend/landlady with whom WW is lodging. That woman, btw, has four kids of her own: two older (late-teen?) girls who have left home, and two boys who live with her in the 4-bed house. The woman's taken in WW as a lodger in the spare room (to offset the UK's new "spare room tax"). I.e. woman has one room, her boys have a room each, and WW & DSS share spare room.

@JK: WW has a job, which pays maybe �40k (I think max). She says she has �1500 a month to live on, but debt-repayments and bills are crippling now that she's no longer living with OMPOS. She lives what is euphemistically called the "party lifestyle" - out all night weekend or weeknight, drinking binges, some drug usage ("soft" e.g. pot for sure, not sure of other). Some people say "perpetual teenage mode". She has several arrests and two convictions for drink-driving (and was lucky the police didn't strip-search her once, when she'd hurriedly hidden a joint in her bra).

@BR: Main thing for me is retaining custody of (i.e. securing a "residence order" for) DD8. I am reluctantly, nose-holdingly OK with a "contact order" that stipulates alternate weekend stays with WW. Custody of DSS13 will be hard: biodad is an American living in Australia, whereas we're in the UK. Biodad fumed to me at the start of this business that he was going to demand that WW ship DSS13 to live with him in Australia - his argument being that while it is true he agreed to WW having DSS's custody, she's broken the terms by living the druggie/alcoholic life she's gone on to live etc - but he backed down in the face of a fierce response from WW. I don't want to waste energy fighting WW for custody of DSS, as I've also been told it'd be harder because I didn't adopt DSS.

@JK: Re "Boys fail miserably when raised by single moms" I agree that that seems to be the general rule. As I said before, DSS seems to be dropping off in his passion for science and sports - now spending every waking hour on his Xbox and on YouTube (quite often, he'd refuse to come with his mum to pick up DD8, and stay home gaming). I fear for him a bit, but have to maintain hope.

Since you never adopted DDS, you have no rights to him and it's not an issue for you anyway. I agree you should focus on DD8. Have you been in recent contact with biodad? Sad that he backed down to WW but can you see if he is now willing to try and get custody of DDS. Biodad would be better than WW from the sounds of it. Very sad for DDS. What is the equivalent of Child Protective Services in the UK? Have they been called?

Given that WW is a POS mother, I would agree her son will likely fail miserably as any child likely would with crappy parents. I take exception to this blanket statement. There are plenty of single mom that raise great sons. Other factors in play contribute to this theory...not just that the mom is a single mom. That is oversimplifying any problem of "failing boys."

My two cents

If you feel like it, you can try helping the biodad get DSS. With two of you surely you could combat her.

@BR: You're right. I like to quote Alexandre Dumas' recursive lemma: "All generalisations are dangerous.."

And it might be speculated that WW would probably say she wants the best for her kids, but a) doesn't understand the sacrifices necessary for parents to make in firing their kids' achievements; and b) is not prepared to make ANY sacrifices, anyway. (She used to say to me "Yes, I know I'm being very selfish, but I've got only one life to live. And I was an only child." This on her way out as I tucked kids into bed, or as kids & I settled to watch New Year's Eve TV, or whatnot.)

I deeply regret allowing my wishbone to take the place of my backbone, and this allowing her unfamial behaviour to take root - let alone sprout & spread. But I'm trying to make sure my self-blame doesn't cripple me. Thanks for suggestions & encouragement. I wish you all the best in whatever you're dealing with, meanwhile.

Later,
Igi

I think you should contact biodad and tell him everything.
Tell him the boy may become involved with a gang or drugs, he is exposed to drugs and failing in school .
Tell him in no uncertain terms that the boy needs his dad to step up to the plate and you can give him numbers for a solicitor and are willing to help in any way

Agreeing with JK here.

Agreed, I think contacting biodad is in DSS's interests.

Given I'm now a single mum, I'd like to think future success is based on the mother and what they provide (love, care, support, values and opportunities) rather than a generalisation.

Hmm.. I don't like the idea of fighting a battle I cannot win, and potentially thus antagonising WW into intransigence over DD8's future.

I did discuss this with biodad (BD?), and he initially decided last year that DSS12's best interests lay in rejoining BD in Australia. However, WW vehemently disagreed, and BD's small appetite for such a change quickly dwindled into tame acquiescence. Were I to reopen this debate with BD, I suspect that WW would counter to BD - who, remember, had willingly given custody of DSS to WW in the first place - that in fact it is in HIS best interests that DSS13 stay with her - funded by whatever settlement she got from me..! Only the law can compel WW to give up custody of DSS - not BD (and certainly not me). It seems to me that DSS's life is in his mother's hands.

No. You can change this -- and didn't you say that he agreed to give her custody...BUT NOT in this sort of situation?

The law can't do anything if no one invokes it.

You are right. You don't have control over who step son lives with .
However when I see my neighbor 4 yr old, left in his yard with pit bull dogs unsupervised and yelled at If he cries and wants in his house (his mother has died of Drug Overdose but the ambulance crew revived her at least 2 times) then I report it to the authorities. So far they have done nothing.
But I can honestly say, I tried to help.

These years are very important for step son.
I think you should tell bio dad what I suggested then leave it at that. I think that is your moral obligation because you were a father figure in his life.

@JK, @KR, @HF66: Thanks. We all agree. I've done, and will do, my best for DSS13 (I was father-figure to him since he was two years old). Bigger-picture priority is still to get secure a good settlement. Regarding which, on Wed 16 Oct (two days' time) I have a no-obligation appointment with a solicitor. Thanks for thoughts, ideas and perspective.

Quick additional point: I have not discussed* with WW my illness, my surgery and the (negative) effect on my freelance business/employment. I thought to not give any undue information advantage. Was I over-applying the "stealth-mode" teachings from these pages?

I don't think youre overapplying anything.
Divorce is war and the less info the enemy has, the better.

Update: Saw lawyer today. he counselled against me making first offer (not that I was going to). He also suggested a number that amounts to maybe 20% of property equity value - a sum that pays off her debt and still leaves more than enough to pay deposit on good-sized rental property. The fact that I won't be asking her to pay my legal costs and wont't be asking her for maintenance payments on DD8 should, he advised, make such a low-end offer palatable. I'm preparing to be pushed to 33%.

Still awaiting WW's reply to email though (I used draft according to @BR, above): wonder if she's studiously ignoring it..

Hi all,
Got a written response from WW. Basically, she's asking for a bit less than I was considering as an initial offer (with some upward flex subject to negotiation). Should I offer more? I don't want her to suffer to the extent that it adversely affects her ability to look after DSS (even tho' he's not my legal responsibility - as WW herself often pointed out to me!) and to maintain contact with DD. My concern, based on her behaviours to date, is that things get too tight for her, WW'll cut corners re kids (ie rather than herself).

Here's the pseudonymised exchange:
====
BH to WW:
Hi WW,
Per our chat last week I agree that it would be best if we could iron out a divorce settlement without spending a ton of money on lawyers and court costs. I do not want to fight, and I hope we can come to an agreement for the sake of everyone, especially the children, who've been through enough. Please get back to me and let me know what you specifically have in mind.
Bye,
BH
----
WW to BH:
Hi BH,
Thanks for your email and you know if I was able to I wouldn't ask for a cent from you but as it stands now I am drowning in debt and am unable to make ends meet from month to month since having to pay rent. The final figure is $TFK. This will allow me to clear debts and pay DSS back what I have had to use from his account. Then I can start to save.

Speak to you tomorrow. WW x
====

The sum I had in mind was 1.2*TFK. "Tomorrow" is cos I'm driving DD up to spend day with WW in the morning. I haven't replied in writing yet - or spoken to WW yet about email, which just arrived.

All thoughts/wisdom/perspectives gratefully received,
Igiiroko

I wouldn't offer her more! She is not going to spend it on her son and you know that. Wake up!! You can always send extra AFTER the divorce (which I would not advise) or give things DIRECTLY to DDS so you know HE is getting what he needs vs WW pretending she is going to give him the benefit of this money. I would not trust WW with more money...she will just blow it.

Is this support, monthly alimony or a lump sum property settlement?

@BR: Thanks - gotcha. This is a proposed lump sum. Lawyer used the term "clean break" settlement.

Like you, a friend who's gone thru divorce says to not offer more - certainly not until other (non-financial) aspects have been agreed. Items such as residence (DD will live with me), contact (DD will visit WW fortnightly for weekend stays), holidays (don't know how to frame that), and other (not sure what else)...

I'm drafting a reply thanking her for answer, and telling her I'm considering her "(high) figure in the context of other things we need to agree..."

I would not call her offer "high"...no need to possibly tick her off if she is being reasonable.

Agree with your friend. There are still many details to work out. Have you met with an attorney yet? Is there a standard custody order to work with in the UK? If so, you may want to start there. I used the standard custody order of my state and tweeked it to fit my situation. The language for bdays, holidays, etc should be in there.

If you want a morals clause in there regarding no overnights with an OM/bf while your daughter is with her, you will have to bring that up with all the other non-financial items. Even if you can get WW to buy off on a certain period of time (1 or 2 yrs) it is better than nothing. Approach it as, DD needs time to adjust to the divorce. Hopefully she will have some sense and agree.

@BR: You are wise. Thanks again. I'd sent the reply already, but as it happens I did not use the word "high" to describe her proposal :-). I appreciate your point wrt "morals clause" which may be time-limited, to give time to DD to adjust. Thanks.

I haven't been able to find an exhaustive/definitive listing of all aspects, so I put this together:

1. Residence (done: STBXW is happy for our daughter, DD8, to live with me)
2. Term-time Day-to-Day Contact (almost done: DD8 will continue at school local to us near Reading. STBXW is in London, 90mins' drive away, but sometimes works at client 45mins from us)
3. Term-time Weekend Contact (almost done: when STBXW gets a place of her own large enough to accommodate that, DD8 will spend alternate weekends with STBXW in London)
4. Holiday Day-to-Day Contact (not done/help needed: STBXW is a habitual all-night raver, borderline alcoholic and consumer of so-called "soft-drugs")
5. Holiday Weekend Contact (not done/help needed: ditto)
6. Special Contact (not done/help needed re eg Father's Day, Mother's Day, parents' birthdays)
7. Other/Major Decisions = Morals(?) (not done/help needed)
8. Maintenance (almost done/help welcome: I won't be asking her for maintenance for DD8. I did not legally adopt DSS13, so am not obliged to pay maintenance on him)

Anything glaring I should omit or add?

PS: It's just struck me that since I'm asking for Plan D views, I should probably post this to a different forum/topic. Please respond here or under Divorce/Divorcing forum.

I wouldn't give her a dime more.
Shell just use it fot booze or drugs.
That's enabling.

You can always have food delivered if you are concerned about that