It's a really long story but I don't really want to write a book. I know a few of you when you read this will probably think I am crazy. I am not sure that would be an inaccurate observation because god knows I think the same thing when I look at my life. Ok the short version of my insanity.

We are not married. SO had an EA right after our daughter was born. Never really made just compensation but we had a daughter together so we(I) worked on it. We were together for twelve years when I decided to call it quits. I mean if your not married in 12 years it isn't likely to happen, right? How do I explain this -- Well, Life is what happens when your busy making plans; 1 year turns into 2, turns into 5, turns into 10, you get the idea.

So we split up and I told him he needed to decide what he wanted, that I wasn't rollerskating up hill anymore. He said he was going to come home. He was going to prove how much he loved me and get himself right. That isn't exactly what happened. In an effort to keep this short. He thought he fell in love with someone else. That did not go as planned and he ended up married to someone she introduced him to.

Fast forward -- new wife left and they got divorced. We were always cordial, and always working in our daughters best interest. We Never planned on getting back together sort of just happened. We are not living together. He lives in another state and is an over the road trucker. (Yes, I know, I read the books.)

I had an EA two years ago and told him I had to leave him because I knew I was crazy,and that it was probably all in my head and I didn't want to hurt him. He stuck by me and waited for the insanity to go away. He instinctively went into Plan A without even knowing what it was. I ended that relationship in short order. The whole thing lasted about three months.

The Woman he thought he fell in love with was divorced and married twice in the mean time. She decided to look up SO and they begin talking again. He acted funny one week that he is home. I start asking questions and snooping find a facebook conversation with OW. I am done. I tell him if she is important enough to throw everything away for then he should go to her because I have had enough. We were actually quite happy at the time and working towards actually getting married after all this time.

He asks can we please try HNHN, that he just didn't know how to make her go away. Exposure was tricky for us, cause well, lets face it, this isn't your usual situation. He did tell his mother and his sister and his aunt. He wrote and sent NC letter. He is working on the O&H and EP. He definitely has boundary issues so he has decided he cannot have female friends.

Here is where I have trouble. Everything about his job is a trigger. He met her when he was training her husband how to drive. He fell in love with her when he trained her how to drive. We cannot afford for him to come off the road and I am not sure that is the best solution either because his first EA was at his job in retail. I Went on the truck with him and became so agitated that I pretty much started a three day argument. I tried to stop, I really did, but just couldn't. I need help with the AO and DJ.

Me-47
SO-48
DS mine 25, 23
DD ours 17
DS his 28
Lived together 10 years been involved for 16 split for almost 3

My dear, you need help with a lot more than AOs and DJs.

You relationship has been a terrible mess. You never made the commitment of marriage, have both been unfaithful and indeed seem unsuited to marrying each other.

You need to either make the commitment of marriage - having first fully understood what a lifelong legal and religious commitment means in terms of how you live your lives - or you should end the relationship.

My dear, you need help with a lot more than AOs and DJs.

You relationship has been a terrible mess. You never made the commitment of marriage, have both been unfaithful and indeed seem unsuited to marrying each other.

You need to either make the commitment of marriage - having first fully understood what a lifelong legal and religious commitment means in terms of how you live your lives - or you should end the relationship.
_________________________

I appreciate that Sugar and I fully expected that to be an issue for some on this board but really if HNHN can save some of the marriages I read about on here I do not see why it cannot help my relationship.

You've missed my point, though, which is that your chaotic relationship is the result of neither of you being prepared to commit to marriage. The lack of commitment has led to the other horrible events.

that's why i said that you need to either learn about marriage and get married, or call it a day. Controlling your AOs and DJs won't cure the chronic lack of care, as well as lack of boundaries, that have plagued this relationship.

I order to quote when you want reply, use the "quote" button that it attached to the bottom right of each post. Try it on your next reply.

Thanks Sugar but do you really think a lack of commitment is the cause of the issues that plagued this relationship? They couldn't have happened if we had married?

But you are not married, amibroken. A marriage is completely different from just living together. First off, your boyfriend has not had an affair and neither have you. Your relationships with these numerous other people are just as legitimate as yours. After all, you are not married. Living together is a month to month renters agreement until something better comes along. That is exactly what happened here. There was never a committment.

Perhaps if you both learn to respect marriage and take the time to learn what marriage means you might be able to create a meaningful marriage. But you both have renters attitudes as it is now. And surely you see that your boyfriends affair with a marriage woman reflects his total lack of respect for marriage? Does that woman's husband know what your boyfriend did to him?

So, I agree with Sugarcane, the issue isn't AO's and DJ's [which are the norm in these types of relationships] but with your basic committment. There is no committment here.

You possibly could turn this around by developing new habits, but it would take a hell of a lot of work. And that would have to start with your BF's traveling job. Harley has a whole chapter about the curse of living together in Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.

You are not committed so you and your husband have always been free to pursue new relationships when something better came along. These were not affairs as you both are free agents. Check this out: Living Together Before Marriage:Compatibility Test or Curse?

If all you want is advice on how to stop your AOs and DJs, the answer is simple: you just stop doing them. I doubt that these solutions alone will solve your relationship problems, though. From what I can gather, it is not at all clear that he has ended contact with this woman.

It's interesting that he never managed to get married to you, but managed to marry someone else after he broke up with you. I'm sorry but I don't see much commitment here.

Well I appreciate that Sugar and I am not arguing with you on any particular point but I really just want some advice on how to get over the AO and DJ. I would gladly just stop if I could. If it were that easy no one would need advice we could all just read the books and be fine.

I am sorry, I rofl when I read this.

Thanks Melody I have already read all of the website and all of the books. As for lack of commitment I don't see me going anywhere since we are still working on getting married. He is working on EP has deleted his facebook and gave up all his female friends. He has freely given complete transparency, Is truly remorseful for what has transpired and with the NC letter he sent there is no contact I can assure you.

My point is that you are not committed. And because of this, you have both developed very bad relationship habits. Not to say you can't develop a marriage out of this, but remorse and a NC letter all miss the point.

The fact that he travels is a non starter, though. How will you solve that problem?

If I were in your shoes and wanted to pursue a real marriage with this guy, I would stay separated and just date for awhile while you develop new habits. Then set a date to get married and move in together then. But none of that is going to work if he travels for a living. You already know that doesn't work.

What about the husband of the woman he shagged? What is being done about that?

Sorry but if we were the only ones who developed very bad relationship habits and those habits only developed in unmarried couples, I might agree with that. But if this board and the books have taught me anything it's that we all have bad relationship habits.
I intend to go over the road with him which is why I need help with the AO and DJ. Thanks

Dr. Harley's book Love Busters lays out a procedure for stopping angry outbursts. He also discusses the subject very frequently on his radio show. There are some recent threads here that link to some shows you can listen to free in the archives that explain the basics of anger management.

But this isn't a dating relationship board, this is a marriage board. Surely you understand that dating is not the same as marriage? In order for you to fix your relationship, it is important that you understand the dynamics in a shack up situation. It is night and day.

The reason you have AO's and DJ's is because that is the rule in renters relationships. These are month to month tentative agreements based on a philosophy of win/lose and sacrifice. And when the score is not even, shackers tend to resort to abusive tactics to settle the score.

If you have read the books, like you say, you would know this, though. Did you read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders?

amibroken, you are asking us to treat your relationship as a "marriage" when YOU don't even treat it as a marriage. After all, it didn't even mean enough to go down to the courthouse and get married.

We are just dating he lives in another state. He never shagged anyone and she has been divorced and remarried and divorced again since he first met her. No husband to do anything about now.

Hang on there a minute. I didn't ask you to do anything but give me advice on how to deal with AO and DJ if you can only do that for married people so be it.

This isn't a married woman?

I am not going to give you advice that doesn't address the problem. Just because you don't realize the real problem doesnt' mean others don't. If you go to the doctor with a hangnail and he sees you have cancer, are you going to get mad when he tells you that you have cancer?

SO whats the real problem Melody? Everything I have read and listened to encourages me that we can learn to be better are you telling me that because we aren't married that isn't the case.

Did you read my posts?

I have ALL of Dr Harleys BOOKS. I have read them all. He is working on reading all of them .He has gotten through two I believe but I could be wrong. And yes I know we have been living as renters actually to be more accurate we have taken turns going back and forth at different times taking different roles.I do not think that is particular to our relationship though. I believe I have posted this twice already we are not living together. Thanks

Like I said, I would focus on the book, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders and work on changing bad habits developed by living together. There is a chapter in there on how to change a renter to a buyer.

So you have lovebusters then? Did you read the chapter on AO and the one on DJ?

Did you read Buyer's, Renters and Freeloaders?

So what did the good doctor not make clear in his books?

Read that book thanks we are working together on getting married. He cannot come off the road because we intend to move to the state he lives in so he can run local and not be away overnight. I just wanted advice on how to manage my AO DJ but apparently because I am unmarried I could not possibly feel anything because it's just not the same. Have a nice day.

Yes I know these two are my worst love busters. I can't seem to get away from the triggers right at the moment so I was hoping for some advice. Sorry I bothered anyone.

When I used to have AO, Dr. Harley told me no one "makes me have AO" I control my own behaviour. So I walk away when I feel one coming on and I stop.

When I think of DJ, I change my thinking.

Listen to these radio clips Anger Mgmt 101

So what are you doing about his traveling job?

Well we are doing what we can really. I go with him when I can. I can call him whenever I need to. I have the account for the phone so I can check all his txt and calls. He deleted his facebook. Removed all his female friends he understands from listening to DR Harley he just can't have them. WE are doing the workbook but that one is hard I tend to want to verbalize instead of write but I am working on that.His mother knows about the EA and she was very upset with him so she is keeping an eye on him at home. He wants me to put a keylogger on his computer. He is making an EP list right now for us to go over. We are working on the POJA. I think we are doing ok. I found that radio snippet just two days ago and it has helped tons. Was just wondering if anyone could give me more advice. I tend to do better with flooding but it makes SO uncomfortable so I am trying to find another way to deal with the AO DJ because I just can't get away from the triggers. Thanks

This is a good read, markos struggled with AO and learned to get them under control. Markos Thread

Thank you Brainhurts!

It can't help your relationship because by definition your relationship is a 'freeloaders' type of relationship whereby definition you are each only committed while it feels good.

His Needs, Her Needs will only work in a 'buyers' type of relationship.

You should read the book 'The One' also called 'Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders' for more information.

If this were an only when it feels good relationship I assure you I wouldn't be here right now. Thanks

Markos Thread was extremely helpful. Thank you again BrainHurts.
I think I tend to do the same thing I let the LB build up a bit too much, often because I am trying to find the best gentle way to say your being incredibly thoughtless of my feelings right now.I just need to adjust my language more and get a bit faster, I am getting better though.

So he was with you for 12 years and you guys never got around to marriage, he had an affair, married someone else, divorced, and is now back with you, but still triggered by another woman.

^This is why people keep bringing up the renter's situation. He's willing to get married - just not to you. Sorry, he's made that clear. He will leave you when something better comes along. And he will probably do it again.

You can do everything you can in this world to try and be the perfect partner/prospective wife but you are ignoring the big elephant in the room - he doesn't want to commit to you. He keeps you around until better things come along.

Sorry, it is what it is. You can change yourself but you can't change him. Changing yourself will not make him want to commit to you.

Actually, Dr. Harley says that 20% of us have good relationship habits. And those 20% are married. Non-married people living together are extremely unlikely to develop good relationship habits.

Dr. Harley has a daily radio show where he gives a lot more information; one thing he talks about frequently is the statistical breakdown of how many marriages end up happy, and how. Years ago when almost everybody else was studying failing relationships, he had the foresight to study the relationships that worked so he could find out what they did.

When you are sarcastic like this, that's a disrespectful judgment.

Now, there's no reason you HAVE to be respectful to everybody, but it might be a good idea to start practicing new habits, at least if you want to overcome a serious habit of DJ and AO. If you know anything about Dr. Harley's works, you know that he sees a progression from SD to DJ to AO. Eliminate the demands and disrespect, and the anger becomes much less of a problem.

Married couples: 80% develop bad relationship habits.

Non-married couples: near-100% develop bad relationship habits.

I listen to the show Daily and if anything I have learned that married people can have the same renters and freeloaders mindset inside a marriage. I know that everything Dr Harley says about just about everything is the truest thing I have ever read or heard. He is the most insightful therapist I have ever come across. I have read a ton of self help books over the years and nothing has ever made sense. I will say that until I read his book and began listening to him I believed cheaters always cheat and every relationship I had ever seen was one form of horrible mistake or another. They either fought constantly or capitulated and suffered. I do not know of one single relationship amongst my friends co-workers or even my DR that is not one or the other. And if I did run up against a happy couple they never told each other their true feelings ever and often had multiple affairs that were just never brought up. So really is it so far off base that I think that this will help me and really even if it only makes me a better person by teaching me better habits wouldn't that be totally worth it anyway.

Sorry you felt it came across that way Markos would you endevour to help me rewrite it in a way that would be more suitable?

I don't think anyone here will say that MB material is for married couples only - clearly single people, engaged couples, divorced etc. can benefit from learning these skills and bring those skills to the dating world/marriage.

However, the issue here is that you are clearly in a relationship with a renter, a man who has demonstrated to you most obviously that he is not committed to you (not just by not marrying, but by going and marrying someone else! And being with other women during your relationship).

So, you can try and improve upon yourself by working on DJ and AO habits, but at what point do you recognize that the MB material states that this isn't going to change the relationship in any significant manner?

It's like your foundation is sinking and you are concerned about fixing some touch-up paint jobs -> because you can't control anything else but the paint job. Doesn't change the fact that the house is a severely damaged structure and a pretty paint job isn't going to fix the obvious.

I hope that makes sense. I am not judging you for your situation, who am I to do that? I was myself, a shotgun bride! But it is what it is, and he has made it clear he is not committed to you in the long term, sorry. He has shown that with his actions.

I believe what you are saying, expressed non-sarcastically, is "I don't believe the fact that we are unmarried is significant."

I thought I had stated that several posts before this one.

Yes, and when you didn't get the effect you wanted, you "escalated" by becoming sarcastic.

Yes, Markos which was why I came here for advice I was aware of my issues! Thanks

I appreciate your point of view but I would disagree. I think Dr Harley's books and techniques are the foundation not the paint. I think all the superfluous stuff that seems to be bogging down any helpful discourse is the paint.

I understand you disagree - but I don't understand why you would believe that this man has ever had any real long-lasting commitment to you. He had a relationship with another woman shortly after you had your baby, you guys didn't marry in 12 years, he married someone else after, and now he's just repeating the situation again with another woman.

You see this as superfluous - do you think, that by stopping all your AO's and DJ's, that he will suddenly decide to commit to you after all? You've been on this rollercoaster for at least a decade or two - are you believing actions or words here?

Dr. Harley has said a lot of things that you seem to have missed, despite having all of his books.

Since your first post on this site, have you reread Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders? I would definitely give it another look, and start listening to the radio show daily. Dr. Harley talks about anger practically every week.

We are working the program diligently. If he were not this discussion would have never taken place. He suggested the book. He has agreed to therapy or anything else we feel we need. He is working on his EP list and has it completed for us to go over. He has deleted his facebook. He has eliminated all his female friends as he now understands he cannot have them because he has boundary issues. He has sent multiple letters of apology. He did the exposure with his family which was very difficult for him. He sent a NC letter and basically there is no threat they will ever speak again with the response he got. I have access to the phone records and accounts. I have all his passwords. He wants me to put a keylogger on his computer so I can check up on him at anytime. He has asked his mother to keep him accountable. He no longer goes out with his male friends to drink because that is why the facebook conversation happened. He is not resistant in any way shape or form. He has done the EN questionnaire and so have I. We are doing the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love which is difficult with his job so he is purchasing his own copy. He reads HNHN or LB to me at night when he can or we take turns depending on which one of us has the book/books. We txt and talk all day long. I am learning about his job and his truck so I can at least hold my own in a conversation about it. I may actually take a mechanics course so I can fix it when it breaks down. I am rather mechanically inclined so it really wouldn't be a stretch if I enjoyed it. I have a hard time with DJ I know that and its getting better all the time I was just hoping for some special insight from others who struggle with it. I have started implementing Dr Harley's technique in the radio excerpt and it helps. I guess I was just hoping someone had developed a quick trick that worked for them other then what Dr Harley suggests cause it takes me a bit to get there. Usually it happens when SO is just unaware he has just hit a trigger when I feel it should have been obvious. I know this is a matter of perception but can't really help the reaction just yet. Like I said we are working on it.

We brainstormed and found our own solution. Thanks!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025b_qa.html

The longer you live together prior to marriage, the less the risk of divorce until after 8 years of living together, when the risk of divorce is equal to those who have not lived together.

Thanks for including the link. I'm afraid your single line taken out of context doesn't really show what was being said:


Basically - if you live together 8 or more years before marriage, you've increased your chance of a successful marriage to be equal to those who did not live together before marriage. (which is still way too high a chance)

Dr Harley closes that article with:

Yeah I did read the whole article. Yeap I did only clip the snippet from the article because that was what I wanted to focus on, absolutely. Our odds are no different then anyone else's at this point. He is my best friend and I am his, he's my favorite companion. He is like my favorite worn out pair of jeans. When we are together it feels like home.

It's like this for us. Imagine we're on top of a mountain and the terrain is really treacherous you know you need to get down(or go up your choice) from the mountain. The problem is your an inexperienced climber and you don't have all the appropriate tools. You work you way around huge rocks and boulders, sometimes you have to scoot down them on your backside, but you making progress. The problem is it's a really big mountain. Then one day and experienced professional climber comes along who is sure they can help you get down. The problem is their equipment is faulty and one of you almost takes a disastrous short cut to the bottom. So you go on struggling navigating the deadly terrain sometimes slipping sometimes falling but you can see your destination so clear you just can't give up. Then another experienced climber comes along and shows you something that was there all along but you couldn't see, it's a path right down the mountain face. It will take you a while to get to it but he promises once your there it's the easiest way off the mountain. So we follow him and we are making our way to the mountain path.

Those results, though, were from couples who lived together daily without all the splitting up, other people, and illegitimate children involved, no? Oh, and also were MARRIED eventually.

Your situation does not compare, not even close.

Reread the article never found the criteria for the study groups involved stating any of the information you posted.

I just read the original study on Jstor, and Dr. Harley has actually misstated the data about 8 years. From the study: "After the first 8 years of marriage, marriage dissolution rates for cohabitorss and noncohabitors converge to the extent that any differences are small and statistically insignificant."

They did control for premarital birth and breaks ups.

The risk of divorce converges after 8 years of MARRIAGE, not cohabitation.

I don't know how to link to it, since it is a password-protected database I am using (college student here), but if you have access to Jstor, the article is there and the quote is on page 134 of the journal.

Good sleuthing CWMI - I listened to the radio program today and coincidentally, Dr. Harley says "if you disagree with something I've said or have found an error PLEASE bring it to my attention"

You should let him know so he can correct his essay.

I emailed him.

The biggest risk is from years 2-8 of the marriage after cohabitation.

I'm glad we made it past that mark, and I totally agree with the results. We lived together in a house we bought together for 8 months before we got married. 2-8 were hell!

Thats great! However, you are not married. Married is married and not married is not married. I don't understand the point of this data. You are still not married.

Are you getting married? If so, your chance of divorce declines after 8 years of marriage.

The data is wrong anyway, Mel. She is hedging bets on misinformation. The risk of divorce is equal after 8 years of marriage, whether partners cohabitated or not prior to marriage.

The study finds the longer the cohabitation, the MORE likely people are to divorce because of the independent habits that have built up over time. shorter duration of cohabitation has less risk than an extended one. Pretty interesting study!

ahhhh, thanks!

Would really love to know all of the criteria for the study. I will see if I can find it. I disagree. I don't think Dr Harley was wrong in his statement though it isn't the actual wording it's meaning is essentially the same, but is misquoted on several different webpages referring to the study.
I will say that unless any of the participants were doing marriage builders they didn't stand a chance anyway.
Truthfully were any of you in the twenty percent before you found marriage builders. NOPE! Have a nice day : )

But that still doesn't make you married... You are not married.

Sorry you have such an issue with MY STATUS. It is irrelevant. The program is the only thing I came here to discuss. How to handle my own AO and DJ. Am I running down the isle as we speak? NOPE. Does it in anyway make Dr Harley's advice or information useless, absolutely not.

I can email the pdf file of that article to JustUs and ask that it be sent to you. Okay?

I would appreciate that CWMI. Thank you

Done!

"orry you have such an issue with MY STATUS. It is irrelevant. The program is the only thing I came here to discuss. How to handle my own AO and DJ. "

Apparently it is very relevant to you or you wouldn't be continually making comparisons. Why keep doing that if it's not relevant to you? I think it is very relevant to you, so much so that you become defensive when we point out that it is not the same.

Yes, that's very clear.

I am not defensive ML really I am not. I see this conversation in a different light.
It's like we are all in the same sinking ship. The ship is going down.None of us know whats wrong with it or how to fix it,we have all found the lifeboat and you want to debate how I don't belong on the ship in the first place so why would I need the lifeboat.

Shaking up and being married ARE very different. Have you EVER been married?

You don't even live together, so that whole article about cohabitation doesn't even come anywhere near to even remotely applying to you. I hope you enjoy it anyway.

Yes, I have been married before hence the 2 DS. It ended tragically with his death after a long battle with cancer.

But we are not on the same sinking ship at all. That is what we are trying to tell you. Yes, I would agree you are on a sinking ship, though. Insisting your situation is the same as being married is a big part of what you are missing. Not to mention a big distraction from resolving your problems.

I will still argue this point. 80% of us are on the same sinking ship ML. No one has the skills that DR Harley teaches. I am sorry it is the same ship: I am getting in the life boat. These aren't just marriage skills these are life skills.

And I think that is a big part of your problem. You don't understand the difference between marriage and living together. They are not. It is a completely different dynamic. Child molestors don't have those skills either, it doesn't mean that molesting children is the same as marriage. Just because there are similarities doesn't mean they are the same. I am not on a sinking ship, btw.

ML I appreciate that you think your trying to help me. I am neither distracted nor unaware. I am not in any way shape or form in need of rescue. It would be an egregious error to assume that your perception can be the only correct perception.

How does trying to pretend like living together is the same as marriage help your situation? How is that a solution to your problems? You have spent most of your time here defending the indefensible instead of looking for solutions.

Since you are so insistent that your dating relationship is the same as marriage, then why don't you just get married? Instead of wasting all this time insisting it is the same, why don't you take the steps to make it the same?

Would be foolish to do this until we had mastered the program.

You should probably actually be in the same state, as well, before you get married.

I have not to my recollection said we were the same as married, but I will read through my posts again. I have stated my status was irrelevant.

And maybe even move to the same state?

Yes CWMI I believe I stated that in another post. So he can run locally and not be gone overnight.

So you are agreeing it is not the same? If that is what you say I would agree!

Sorry your still stuck here ML. Think I made it plain it's IRRELEVANT.

Then why don't you move forward and focus on solutions to your problem if its "irrelevant?"

Actually ML that is exactly why I came to this site and asked about AO and DJ. It appears to have created some issue for others and made it impossible to get any relevant input.

You got input. As far as AOs and DJs, just stop it. IDing AOs is easy, DJs will take more work. Have you identified the DJs you make?

Yeap great advice.

And no answer...have you identified your LBs? What are they?

Go look at the questionnaires, this isn't a hand-holding or mind-reading board.

Is this the paper?

http://www.nber.org/papers/w2416.pdf

That looks like it, but is missing the tables from the journal. Same authors, titles, and text, although I only read some of this and note it is the working paper, may differ slightly from the published version. What I quoted is on page 15 of this.

Heh, I got to the end and they do have the tables, but not all prettied up like in the published pdf version, in graph form and all...but yeah, that's the study.

I thought I gave you that.

If you listen to Dr. Harley's radio show daily, and start listening to old shows in the archives, you'll get a lot more review and detail on the information.

Again I suggest that you tone down the sarcasm, since that's absolutely what you have to do to work on AO and DJ, if you are serious on working on these two issues.

My anger management therapist works mostly with angry men; he says sometimes a wife of such a man will ask him for a diagnosis of her husband. He tells her her husband is diagnosed as a "chronic jerk," and that the goal of treatment is for him to become a "recovering jerk."

Don't be a jerk, you know? One of the biggest tricks is learning not to give yourself permission to be a jerk even when you feel like other people are being a jerk to you.

I may not be so inclined to continue to give you input if you continue to conveniently forget it just to make points in your arguments with other posters on your site. It seems more important to you to be able to claim you were poorly treated here than it is to actually work on the issues you claim you came here to work on. Why don't you just click "ignore" on the people you don't want to hear from and focus on the input you've actually gotten for the problems you want to work on?

If you want to work on AO and DJ, I strongly strongly suggest you quit trying to win arguments around here. If you can't learn to let some things run off your back you'll probably not be able to handle AO and DJ.

I tell my kids not to try to straighten each other out and that it's okay if their brothers or sisters are wrong. Can you handle it if other people here have an opinion about you that you feel is wrong? Can you accept that and just let go of the issue? Or will you always feel the need to straighten them out? This is a skill you're going to have to master if you want to eliminate angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments.

Google for "psychological ping pong."

Practice playing here.

I never claimed I was poorly treated and tried to redirect to the original request. I posted earlier that SO and I worked out the issue ourselves. Thanks

Radio Clip from Dr. H. on AO.

I know they are married couples but you can still learn from them.

Radio clip on AO

Radio Clip on demands and anger

Thank you BrainHurts. I appreciate the radio clips. I had heard the first one just the other day, it was very good. The second was one I had not heard and was much more helpful to me personally and I really do appreciate you posting that.