Full disclosure: One of my top emotional needs is admiration so I get defensive easily when my DH is mad at me. I also traditionally apologize first and try to keep the peace so that I feel peaceful. I have been lurking here a long time and hope to implement the program with DH because I really need/ want to feel in love with him more often. I am disturbed that I want male attention outside of our relationship ( although I have never pursued any guy) I like the rush that crushes gives me. I want to put all my energy into DH.

Question of the day: I was watching our baby last evening and my DH put his drink down on front of us on the coffee table. I didn't see this and let baby down where she proceeded to knock it off. He immediately went to bed mad and hasn't talked to me since. What should my response be? I didn't say sorry at the time because traditionally he doesn't want to hear it in the moment. He is prone to AO but was very controlled yesterday. He holds grudges.

Help me be loving and not feel like I am being walked on please?

I would say, "Hey, Baby is getting around a lot more than she used to. I was thinking we could make things easier around here if we made some baby-proofing decisions that we could both get into. Like maybe keeping the coffee table clear of stuff so situations like your drink getting spilled last night don't happen. I was thinking that I could clear off one of the bookshelves as our 'drop off' space for things we don't want her to get into. What do you think?"

I would not apologize for something the baby did, but you can go forward being more aware of dangers and nuisances in the room and be proactive. "Honey, I'm going to let her crawl around. Would you like to pick up your drink or should I put it on the bookshelf for you?"

If you got pouty last night, apologize for THAT. Not his spilled drink. He is responsible for his own beverages and his own child, he can't blame you for that. Look for solutions--maybe you could put a drink table in the corner, block baby with the corner of the sofa and a potted plant. A narrow shelf or table behind the sofa, set up high enough to be out of her reach. Get together on teaching her what she can touch and what she can't (although this is largely a personality issue, imho...I have four kids, and even though I approached all of them very similarly, two of them would and still do touch everything).

x2. I have to admit I'm surprised a guy with 4 kids would make such a rookie mistake!

CWMI has great suggestions. We're still working with ours on what they can touch and what they can't. We made the decision several years ago to not have any kind of knicknacks or breakables where the kids could easily get to them, but are slowly reintroducing these items to the household.

What does your husband think of the Marriage Builders program?

What is he doing about his AO?
Anger Mgmt 101

Thanks for the suggestions. I didn't get pouty and I didn't get mad at him for getting mad as I sometimes do ( working on it). It's a relief to know I don't need to apologize. The more I think of it he was probably at the end of his rope with kids up too late etc. just looking forward to sitting down to relax and his mixed drink gets spilled.probably the straw that broke the camels back.

We are in a unique situation right now living in parents basement while we build a house. He is gone every evening and weekend working on it so I don't feel we can do the one- on-one time that is the foundation of marriage builders so I haven't really broached the program with DH. Just a comment here and there. When he is home ( after kids are in bed)we sit on the couch - him with gaming, me surfing the net. Hmm i guess we do have some time to work with.Fine with this arrangement until lately thinking I need more emotional intimacy with him.

His angry outbursts have lessened over the years.He doesn't get angry at me so much as the kids. If the oldest isn't listening he might use one hand to push her once in the right direction and he yells more than me. I usually call him on these things and let the kids know that it's not ok to yell or push or whatever. Since his little dtr has asked him not to yell he has done much better with AO's. His temper was a main reason I refused to allow spanking as a form of discipline.

His worst AO was last summer after vacation and I still get angry thinking about how vulnerable i felt. He was so irrational. Driving home getting more and more upset with traffic them our oldest barfed and he would not stop to get her cleaned up. I forced the issue and he had a tirade in the gas station parking lot. Throwing car seats on the pavement and yelling. He doesn't remember it really and thought about anger mgmt after. The worst part for me is that while kids were in the bathroom I tried to tell them calmly that daddy's mad but wasnt behaving right and my son ( who himself has a temper) said yes daddy can act like that cause he is mad.He said afterwards he felt much better after to which I responded " well I feel much worse"He did apologize eventually but it's frustrating that he doesn't really know how awful he was.

So, no, brainhurts he doesnt have a plan currently to address AO's. Maybe I can get him to listen to those radio links. I'm quite sure he doesn't consider it to be a problem right now.

My family loves him and feel we have a really open, honest way of communicating but I have trouble being vulnerable with him. I excused it away as " keeping the mystery alive" but I don't really give myself completely to him. Maybe have put up defenses to keep from wanting too much which would lead to conflict( which I hate).

I will go print out EN form now and see if he can find some time to complete it with me.

With all his time working on that house.

What's your plan to get your UA time in?

Yes please have him listen to the Anger Mgmt clips. They are excellent.

Also what are you doing to stop your AOs? Are you committing other love busters?

Get the book Love Busters.

Aimingforstars, this is armchair-quarterback diagnosis here on my part, I admit, but it sounds to me like you guys must be getting, oh, about 6 minutes' worth of time each week for Undivided Attention to/from one another sans parents & kids.
Am I more or less right?

Just wanted to point out that if you don't have the time to devote to your marriage, then you can't fix your marriage. This program doesn't work without this step. You can't continue to neglect your marriage and expect to have anything other than a bad marriage.

The most critical first steps I see in your situation are a) eliminating lovebusters and b) getting 20-25 hours of UA time. If you are serious about changing your marriage, that is where you have to begin. Anything else will be a waste of time if you can't do that.

Thank- you for taking time to respond!

I would be open to finding time together. We have from 10-12 every evening together without kids and probably could find 4 hrs each Sunday. The problem is getting him on board. He is much more social than me and he plays online games every evening with his friends. It's very important to him. Can we build up to 20 hrs or would this be a waste of time? He will balk. If I play online gaming one night a week would this count towards rec companionship? It would kill me but I could learn how to play call of duty:)

I will get love busters. Right now we don't have enough time together to be love busting much. I do DJ him in my head but I am careful not start fights usually. Have to read the book.

You need to hire a babysitter and get out of the house -- and away from the online games! -- for your UA time. Your attention needs to be completely focused on each other -- that will not happen with Call of Duty.

Also please listen to this clips about the H addicted to gaming. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on addiction to gaming
Segment #2
Segment #3

A much better time for UA time is between 6 and 9, because you are tired by 10pm. And where would you go at 10 every night? I don't know about you, but I do not feel like going out on a date at 10 at night! Your UA time should be spent when you are at your most energetic. Not many people go out on dates from 10 to 12.


You play this together? And you can do less important things without each other as long as you have met your 20 hours of UA time per week.

The best way to do it is to sit down schedule your time once a week. Write out dates, activities, times, etc. Plan on dressing up and looking nice when you go out. And since you live with family, you can have them babysit!

He is finally home. I guess I misread him not talking to me for 24 hrs as he states the drink spilling was his fault. Yet he still has nothing to say and went straight to bed without saying goodnight. These moments are really hard for me to take, I feel insecure, but I haven't become emotional or started anything so that's good. I asked him if there was anything he wanted to talk about- no. Have you been avoiding me today- no. Hmmm. Ok then.

Thanks brainhurts. I listened to that clip about addictions to gaming. I have never asked him to cut down so can't know if he is addicted or not. I will say that we both have a habit of independent behavior and he especially balks at attempts to control (his perspective). I haven't felt like its been an issue thus far except his own health( up too late) I like his gaming time because I get to do what I want. .

What is the difference between selfish demand and a request to do something for our marriage that will make me happy, or stop doing something that makes me unhappy? I don't get how to ask for something without it sounding like a demand to him.

Melody lane I don't game with him now. I don't know how to get earlier time with him. He just worked until 8 pm and left for our house. Didn't get back until 1030 tonight. Usually it is 9 pm. We have 3-4 more months of this process before we move. Maybe it will have to wait until then. Then again I could ask him to be back for 8, have all kids in bed and then go for walk or something. Our baby doesn't get to sleep until 10 so we could put her in a stroller. I could ask my parents once a week and his once a week but knowing my mom she couldn't handle more. So two nights without baby and 5 with baby in stroller or bike carriage. I could also hire a sitter and meet him for lunch twice a week.

I hope he goes for it! What happens if he doesn't? He doesn't want to take any time from house because we are going crazy living this way.

Having the baby there would not count because you can't have UA time when there are children there.

I would sit down and FIRST schedule your UA time for the week, and THEN schedule less important things like child care, working on your home, gaming, job. Put all those less important things at a lower place on the list.

Right here is some good time that could be afforded to dates with you.

What would most likely to draw him away from his friends on the internet?

a) 2 hours with his tired, exhausted wife late at night who is wearing her jogging pants and a ratty t-shirt

b) a hot date with a smoking hottie, who he is passionately in love with

Which would he rather do?

I hear what you are saying about UA time. Nothing matters unless that is done. I'm just going to need to redefine my priorities. Child care has come first for 9 years but I don't want to feel like we are just treading water half the time. I'll get back to you when I come up with something that works.
I really appreciate your posts- thanks.

And that's actually a big problem, Aiming.

Lots of parents get into the trap of putting children ahead of their marriages. (This is natural, I suppose, since we're all so deeply steeped in cultural ethos of "children always come first", which is well-meant & noble in the abstract but often not very well thought-through in the application & implications.)

Trouble is, when the children are put 'first' so much that the marital relationship suffers, this actually puts the children at serious risk of observing & absorbing lots of behaviors that are adverse in a relationship, and puts them at risk of having their parents split up. And there's gobs of scientific research on what this does with quality-of-life probabilities. So when taken too far, 'putting the children first' actually is not putting the children first after all.

My wife & I have got two kids (not four), and now they're at an age where they're pretty self-sufficient, so the above may all seem cheap for me to say now. Howevever, my wife & I had gotten into situations where we both prioritized other things (although in my case, it was not our children) ahead of our marriage, and while that wasn't to blame for some very rotten choices I made over a span of a few months, it put us at-risk for the sort of thinking that I got into. Like you, I wasn't actively pursuing opposite-sex attention; but when some unlikely opposite-sex attention got tossed my way by someone who'd basically thrown in the towel on her own marriage, I turned out to be a lot less of a decent guy than I'd been before. If the idea of male attention from outside the marriage appeals to you -- even if you've never pursued it or sought it out -- then you're in a vulnerable spot just as I was, and you & your husband need to shore up the relationship that you both had in mind to have when you got married in the first place.

I know it's not easy, but you need to get babysitters, friends, parents to help with the kids, whatever you can do -- and at hours of the day when you've both got enough stamina for it to matter -- in order to get some alone-time with one another. You didn't trade rings with each other so that you could change diapers & clean up kid-barf all day; you could've gotten a job at a day-care center for that. And I doubt that he got married so that he could bust his bum on his house all weekend & play video games all evening. Rather, you got married because wanted to spend time with one another. You need to call each other during the day just because. You need to not go to bed angry. If something's bugging you with regard to the other, then you need to bring it up in a calm, non-disrespectful way, and not 'sweep it under the carpet' in the name of short-term tranquility (which in reality is a stress-building outcome, not one that produces tranquility). You need to invest more forethought & money in your underwear than in your children's, LOL. You each need to consider the other's views when making decisions about how you'll spend your time. In sum, you need to put your relationship first.

You must get back to that. If you don't, you'll be juggling the kids by yourself, they'll suffer from less parental attention, a court will decide what'll happen with that house that you're working so hard on, and he'll be left to find another mate from the extremely small circle of women who are attracted to grown men who sit around playing video games for hours on end like adolescent boys. Of course, all of that is not where you want to end up.

I would broach the program with him sooner, rather than later. Then you can get the problems on the table and BOTH of you can be brainstorming solutions to them, rather than just you.

The two main problems I see are:
1) His angry outbursts have got to STOP. Not just get less frequent, but STOP. You must keep this problem on the front burner.
2) The two of you need to be able to spend time together, i.e., follow Dr. Harley's Policy of Undivided Attention, which means spending 15+ hours per week together meeting the intimate emotional needs of recreational companionship, intimate conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment. The time should be spent doing things you both enjoy, and talking a lot, and paying attention to each other, i.e., not looking at a computer screen, or playing a game that would kill you emotionally to play. Your children should not be present, and you shouldn't spend the time with other people. Give each other your undivided attention.

These are not problems that a wife can solve by herself. They are problems you have to solve together, so you need to make him aware that these are big high priority problems for you and get him working with you to come up with solutions.

Also, have you heard of Dr. Harley's daily radio show:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/

You can listen on your phone or online, and you can access old shows in the archives and listen to them.

Dr. Harley talks about these two problems (angry outbursts, and time together for undivided attention) frequently on his show. If you could both get to listening to this show daily, it would really help you start to see what serious problems these are and start thinking about solutions. Maybe your husband can listen while he is working on something else.

If you could go help him work on the house while your parents keep an eye on your sleeping children (really, kids under 9 should be in bed at 8pm anyway), that would give you time together working toward a shared and challenging goal, which will create intimacy.

Can you do that? Even if you can do no more than hand tools and clean up, I think it would help you each to see the other as a partner rather than an adversary.

Then when you get home, listen to the program online and discuss it in bed!

Work on moving that bedtime back to 8. Kids will adjust to an enforced bedtime. Remember, you are in charge, not them, and the new bedtime is not a punishment, but a gift for the entire family.

Dr. Harley actually specifically says not to count time spent after 11 pm, because most of us are too tired after that to enjoy ourselves or be enjoyable to be with.

Thanks gloveoil. I always knew this in my head but I rationalized that babies need to come first short term. The problem is we kept having babies

I am willing to start prioritizing our relationship and I will broach the subject with my Dh when he is talking to me again. He is withdrawn right now. I figure it has something to do with his plans for a movie might being thwarted by kids a couple days ago. I got the oldest ones in bed too late while he did the other kid.can't read his mind but all I know is he wants space from me right now. I think.

I really appreciate your post. I have gone over it a few times because there is a lot that relates to me in there.

Aiming, among the many valuable things that my wife & I learned (and learned the hard way) is that assuming is probably the worst form of spousal communication that there is.

Just sayin'...

Cwmi the kids are in bed by 8 usually except for the baby who is still getting regulated. All the kids started going to bed around 7 by the time they were 1 but she is not there yet (9 monthd)Probably because we schlepp her around everywhere and she has no nap routine.

The idea to go help him work is great except our new house is 25 mins away so evenings wouldn't work. I would just be getting there and he would be leaving. I am going to go out this weekend with him if I can get babysitting. Your right that we need to feel more like partners in this endeavor.

Markos I downloaded the radio app so I will try to listen to it daily. Planning to play it while I put baby to bed tonight. Thanks for the reminder.

Your right melody lane. He would much rather go out with me in the evening. He likes showing me off when I look good but lately I have been really letting myself go. I have two shirts I keep cycling through and 2 pants. To be fair one is Lu Lu lemon and he does like them quite a bit I need to do better in that department. Probably wearing the same shirt for two days ( and nights) straight is an annoying habit. A little embarrassed to admit that!

Here's another good clip.
Radio clip on how we get back to the way we were when we were first married

Glove oil it's true that I shouldn't assume. He just got back from work and says he is depressed with the fact that we are living here. He says he doesn't need gifts( I got him some food he likes yesterday) but " maybe if I clean the house instead of going out with the kids..." our basement is a disorganized mess that I have avoided for a long time. I will try to work on it. I asked him not to check out of life and be hostile to me. He gets angry and cold when he is depressed.

Am I just supposed to plan a him while he is like this? How do I get my needs met? It's just as hard on me living this way and 100x worse when he acts like this.

Why not get your husband listening, too?

I am going to repeat this:

And here is an article from Dr. Harley that I think would be very good for you guys:

When should you tell your spouse, "We have a problem."

So if your DH would like you to clean up the basement. What is your plan to accomplish this?

Also please read this. The Giver and Taker

If your weight is bothering you and you guys struggle with UA, I cannot recommend enough working out together as UA time. We do it, and we love it! Many gyms offer childcare (as well as video games for older kids). We turned our mutual love of fitness into a serious hobby and it brings us to other cities competing, etc. (with grandma babysitting of course!)

Brainhurts and Markos thanks for the links. The giver and taker was an eye opener for me because I didn't realize the giver needed balancing too. That is really interesting.
I spent some time cleaning up today. He actually was totally pleasant after we talked last night. I'm sure it helped that I was calm and non defensive.

We talked at the house today( kids at grandmas). He " probably wouldn't" listen to the marriage builders radio but I will install the app for him and ask again if he would listen on the way to or from house. He doesvt feel there is a problem with our marriage but I just kept saying I want to set the bar high and have an excellent marriage , not just a good marriage. He thinks we hage to wait till we move to have time. I told him we need to work in it now so it's not insurmountable after we move. I asked if we could at least spend an hr a day off computer and tv. I don't know if it is wrong to start slow but he isn't on board yet with 15 + hrs.

I will see what I can eke out this week for us and see if I can make our time together really fun to encourage more.

Very appreciative of the input I am getting here btw- thank you for taking the time to help us.

Make it the BEST part of his week (and yours).

Another good thing to say is "I have a problem."

Sit down and schedule the UA time.

I was on the radio show!!! Very exciting. It was amazing to get an answer to a question I had and see all the areas we can make improvement.

I feel like it will be easier to get my husband on board with marriage builders principles once he listens to the broadcast. Wasn't expecting even an email back and to be able to actually discuss our issue with the Harleys was amazing.

Have been lurking a lot still. Waiting to pull trigger on UA time when we are moved in a couple of months. DH is not on board with taking time away from finishing the house at this point and neither am I for that matter. I want it done as fast as possible so our family can be whole again.

Two huge points from show for me: can't just do things on my own if DH not on board- I tend to barrel ahead without him. Also great point- if one sps is not agreeable with something then the onus is on that sps to work hard at solutions that would make them agreeable. Lots more I got from the program but I am excited for my DH to listen and see if we can implement some of their suggestions. Excited to stop arguing and start negotiating.

Thanks again to this board for all the help you offer so freely. The high standards for marriage and truth are what I need and I learn so much from reading the posts here.

What was the date of your call?

Sept 20.

Is this your call?
Radio clip of 9-20-12 Show
Segment #2
Segment #3

Yes that's it. Thanks for posting it.

Can you use house building time as UA time?
Work together on it?
You can use it to give him lots of Admiration.

Also for the game time... at this point perhaps don't say you don't want him to quit the game, but of his free time of Z hours a week, Y hours are devoting to gaming and you would like to spend X hours of that with him doing something together.

I have avoided posting because I knew UA time had to be next step and I wanted things to be a certain way (financially) before we began. I felt like I could handle not being in love until we were able to make UA time work financially. Figured I could do enough to meet husbands emotional needs to keep him happy but it didn't work out (duh) He is again in withdrawal. Something I knew was coming. Foolish of me to not start planning UA time when I knew. So now I don't care if we go into debt for babysitting. We both need to be in love again.

I am in the process of convincing him to give us 2 months of 15/hr week UA time. He is sad and wants to give up. I told him we could have a passionate love relationship if we spend more time together away from kids. I guess if he chooses us I will use this site to blog the UA and keep me accountable. If he doesn't I guess I will need direction for what to do next.

I appreciate any time you take to read this and any responses you might have.

Hi Mae! Glad to see you back... What has happened to cause him to go into withdrawal? Can you be more specific about what you mean by withdrawal? In your previous posts I got the sense that he would give you the cold shoulder and sulk sometimes. Is this what you mean by withdrawal?

Yes he was stressed about finances yesterday morning ( finally took a look at "the books") and was mean to me by text. I told him he can't abuse me emotionally and make me his punching bag. I hadn't felt that flattened by him since his angry vacation outburst 5 years ago. He was upset I called it emotional abuse. Called it "low" of me. Then didn't want to talk last night and sent this today " I've always called you sweet names, touched you and complimented you. You don't reciprocate and Yesterday you called me abusive. I am struggling now. I dont have it in me. I don't want to talk about feelings with you any more because I thought I was doing good. Sure I swear a lot and I called you bitchy but never thought that was abuse. I'm sorry. "

Anyway looks like I convinced him. He is home now and is willing to do UA time for an experiment of two months. He doesnt seem in withdrawal anymore (not giving me silent treatment and is engaging)I am looking at getting a babysitter Monday for 5 hrs.

Thanks for your response!

Mae, another very important first step is for him to get help for his anger problem. He has a serious anger problem and that must be addressed first. Dr Harley mentioned his anger and his pattern of abuse in your call. Did your H listen to that?

Has your husband read the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters, which addresses anger?

And you did so good by telling him he was abusive! It should be pointed out every time and if he doesn't stop it, I would pack his bags. Prisca did this to Markos and guess what? It solved his anger problem when he was forced to cool his jets in a Motel 6!

Wow that is about the most un-apologetic apology I have heard in a long time, and I ought to know, having given plenty of them. Sure he is frustrated because his efforts didn't seem to make much difference, but his account was apparently very deep in the red. He doesn't have a concept of how bad this hurts you. Have you been able to explain to him that if it feels abusive to you, then it IS abuse?

Thanks melody lane. I have read about Prisca but I don't know if I am just sensitive to it because of growing up with a (wonderful) dad who had a temper. I am also very sensitive by nature. Yesterday was the only time I have felt abused by him since 5 (4?) years ago. Does it make a difference if I post what he said or is it only how I felt about it that matters. It was way less hurtful than the major blow-up he had on our vacation but the feelings I had reminded me of that time. i told him that also but not sure if I am supposed to do that ( bring up old hurts). I am still hurt about that last time. It should have been a reckoning but I didn't make him go to anger

His anger was a main reason I told him we weren't spanking our kids (told him before they were born) His relationship with our son has improved a lot since I told him son didn't want to be with him due to his yelling at them ( son reminds me of myself as kid- my oldest could care less about his anger!) He has improved a ton with them but I still worry when he gets really angry. Never done anything awful to them but he is a big man and looks like an angry bull when he gets mad. Normally does not lay hands on them but occasionally (1x/yr) while "redirecting" them to room etc they have fallen from him pushing their bodies in the right direction. I have called him on it every time and tell kids that its not ok. He also has occasionally mocked them when he is angry and I call him on that too immediately.

If you feel I need to ask that he take anger mgmt I will. Just wondering if it would be better requested after he is more in love with me again. When he is more inclined to be thoughtful. I looked up anger-busters once for this area and not sure it's offered here.

Sorry for the book. I know I'm sensitive and my husband is much better than dad was. Hard to know which way is up,

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to me. So appreciated.

Mae, Dr Harley would tell him to resolve his anger problem FIRST because trying to resolve problems with an angry person is impossible. And can be dangerous! Trying to repair your marriage with a angry, disrespectful person will be an impediment to success. So he needs to get it under control FIRST.

And I don't know how "sensitive" you are or aren't, because it is irrelevant. What matters is that he stops hurting you. And lets say you are a sensitive, wilting flower who should be committed to the nut house, wouldn't that be MORE REASON to not hurt your feelings? It is extremely disrespectful for anyone to tell you that you are overly sensitive and makes solving the problem impossible. Once he says you are too sensitive, all hope of solving the problem is gone.

He doesn't like reading most books so not much chance he would read love busters.

I didn't see your response before my last one. Ok thanks- that's what I figured. So he needs to get anger mgmt. Ill look for a good one tomorrow.

Will try to edit my last post- concerned about anyone I know seeing it.

Then you can read it to him. I would start with the chapter on Angry outbursts. Have you played the radio clip for him yet?

Mae, please don't edit your post out. Other posters need to read that in order to help you. The forum is completely anonymous. Will your husband come here and post?

Oops didn't see your last post! Just wanted to take out reference to friend. I never played clip. He was not interested.

I will read him love busters if he lets me. Would be easier first step than requesting anger mgmt. right off the bat.

Does he have any interest at all in fixing your marriage? Or does he care? I get the feeling that he is not too willing to do anything. Do I have that right? In that case, I would present him with a list of what you will need to be happy. If he won't do those things, you should plan on separating and following the advice in "When to Call it Quits" here.

You should also read Prisca's thread on "what to do with an angry husband." Her husband is not angry anymore and they have a happy, passionate marriage today. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2640607&#Post2640607

I would also play the radio clip for him so he can hear Dr Harley's suggestion that he get anger management training. If he wants to be a bully about that, he can call and bully Dr Harley instead of his wife and his kids.

Thanks for your response. Yes I have explained that before to him. That what matters is how I feel. He has become better at validating my feelings throughout the marriage but still finds that a difficult concept to grasp.

Melody Lane he does care a lot about me and kids but he doesn't "see" solutions to our problems. I also hesitate to be honest with him about how I feel but have been much better about this since coming here. I prefer peace at all costs so he is not really used to me making waves. I will approach him with these three things: love busters, radio clip and anger mgmt and see what he says.

Off to spend some time with him. Thank you for taking the time to help us.

That is great that he does care. He can demonstrate he cares by stopping hurting you and the kids. A man who cares about his wife does not intentionally harm her after she has told him it hurts.


I sensed that a big part of the problem was conflict avoidance. Can you see that peace at any cost only invites war? Conflict avoidance only serves to kick the can down the road. Nothing ever gets solved. If you will force yourself to take a stand and never tolerate his bully behavior again, I predict he will train himself to stop it.


Good girl!!

"Thanks for your response. Yes I have explained that before to him. That what matters is how I feel. He has become better at validating my feelings throughout the marriage but still finds that a difficult concept to grasp. "

Dr Harley says that if he could, he would make spouses feel exactly what the OTHER one feels, when they do something. I think he called it an "empathy pill" or something. I think this concept may be a little harder for men in general to grasp, but overall human nature is to assume that others feel exactly the way we think they do.

Ok he will listen to both my radio clip and the love busters segment if I read it. I also brought up anger mgmt and he is nervous about it but did not say no. Just that it might be hard to find the time. I told him a foundational concept in anger mgmt is that "no one makes you angry" and that he believes that people do, so he could benefit from it. I will research the classes in this area and hope to find a weekend one or something that is not a weekly commitment. It would be easier for him to go one or two times to a longer session as opposed to weekly. I feel empowered. Thank you.

Good job!! See? You can do this, Mae. The next step is to make a decision to never tolerate his anger. Did you read the link to Prisca's thread? I think that will be very helpful.

Yes I have heard Dr Harley speak about the empathy pill before and so wished it existed!

Melody lane I think I have read that link but I will go back and read it again. I told my husband what you said- that my being sensitive is more reason to treat me with care. That makes a lot of sense to me. Thank-you:)

Mae, let him know you need him to do this. He is not motivated to do so now because you have set the bar very, very low. Communicate to him that you are not going to tolerate angry outbursts any more (either directed at you or at the children), and that this book and the radio show have the information on how to eliminate this.

YES, you need to tell him this, even if you only feel abused "every few years" - when a person has an angry outburst they are completely insane. What they might do cannot be predicted by anybody. Dr. Harley has seen women who have been maimed or crippled by husbands having angry outbursts who had never been physically violent before. It is abuse whether you feel it or not.

The simplest solution is for him to voluntarily go along with this procedure and eliminate his angry outbursts, simply from you telling him you need this and are not going to tolerate it any more. You must try that first, and then if he refuses, then you need to take steps to protect yourself and the children from his anger. We will work on that with you, but first approach him with the problem to see if he will just voluntarily solve it.

He has to find the time, though. If he does not find the time, then you are going to have to set up a situation where you don't have any contact with him to protect you from the danger he poses.

Everybody has the same number of hours in the day. He will have to make keeping his family safe a number one priority - that will have to happen even if there is not time for other things.

Let him know you will never put up with this again as long as you live. He can call it "abuse," or he can call it a baloney sandwich, but whatever he wants to call it, he CAN'T do it to you.

I'm trying to understand for the sake of Mae and myself. I read this thread from the beginning but I haven't seen very much of the more experienced MB members talking about Mae working on her side of the fence? When Markos had is AO problem, I don't recall Prica's thread to be all about his anger, she had things to work on herself. I had a completely different experience in terms of the direction to take and my wife blow's up at me all the time.

Mae... Hi :-) I am also learning a ton about anger right now. The reason you hate conflict so much is the fact that you are married to an angry person.
Again,I think you are downplaying a very dangerous situation you live in everyday. You are in danger Mae. Your kids are in danger.

Grudges are anger.
Silent treatments are anger
Being frustrated is anger.
Putting the health and safety of your kids at risk because you don't want to stop driving followed by an outburst to everyone: I would call that An AO as well.

The question to ask, do you feel punished by it. If the answer is ever yes... Angry Outburst alert.

If he won't listen to the radio show, or becomes reluctant with you reading to him-you are going to have to take drastic measures. That really is the only thing that sometimes gets them to realize what is at stake.

Dr. Harley would say to separate ALWAYS, every single time someone cannot get control of their anger until they can prove that they have taken anger management, and can protect you by never having one again.
I am not joking. As a woman who has been physically hit before, you don't seem to realize how serious your situation is.

If you can just focus on this one issue: His AO. This is the place to draw a line in the sand, face this conflict. Focus on anything else is wondering what color to paint the bathroom on the titanic.

This one is easy. Dr. Harley says that when the health and safety of a woman and her children are at risk of assault or even worse.... that is as far as she needs to go for now. She and her kids are in danger and she doesn't seem to be able to grasp that.
She needs him to make her safe. Step one!

HL that's why they were here for years before the real changes started. That's why I gave up on my M because the real changes didn't start. You can do this HL, you can turn this ship!

Thanks Markos. Nice hearing your perspective. I will make time tonight to read the book. I also called an anger mgmt psychologist today and left a message. Is there anything I should ask in particular to make sure she teaches good principles?

I am surprised at the seriousness you view my situation but I suppose there is a reason my stomach clenches every time he gets angry. I thought it was just a response learned from childhood. I probably would have trouble viewing it as a problem (because he is better than my dad was) except for the vacation incident. He truly was insane and didn't remember it after.

I had a bit of an epiphany last night. I have stopped (usually) fighting with him so when he sent the abusive text to me I responded firmly but calmly three times to his responses. The thing is - without my anger fuelling the situation his responses sounded insane. Smoke and mirrors. Not sure exactly why that made me feel better but I think it's because I realized that his meanness was not my fault but his own problem.

Thanks Elaina. I often have felt "punished" by him in his silent treatment. He has gotten so much better in the past two years but it is time to deal with it. Your posts help me realize the seriousness of the situation. I want the stomach clenching to end. He barrelled down the stars the other day because a kid was misbehaving only to talk to the child very calmly but the violent action of pounding down those stairs set us all on edge. Like I said I blame the response on my own upbringing but its good to get a perspective from all of you that his anger is the problem. Not my response.

Yes, because the first problem that has to be solved are his angry outbursts.

He won't do anything. He says I can read it but he won't listen. He said he's not going to stop getting angry at me - thinks it is ridiculous to tell someone to stop getting angry. He asked: Will you stop getting angry at your kids?" He's got a point though- so I said anger isn't bad just how you act in anger. He again asked what he did that was so bad two days ago. Blamed it on me being snarky.

Sad.

I would start making plans to separate. Will he move out?

I don't know. He just came up to talk to me. He feels like he has been made to do so much in our relationship- I have bulldozed him a lot in the past- that he sees this as another attempt to control him.

Yes, you are trying to stop him from having angry outbursts. If he won't do that you should separate. Will he move out?

Sounds like my former attitude. I believed that if it was meant to be, things would just work out. I felt that anything I did over and above that should be enough for her, right?
Then I realized it will have to be worked at all the time. That's why he is feeling "controlled" is because he is beginning to realize he may lose you if he doesn't change his ways. I look at it as hopeful- he may be on the verge of an epiphany.

Melody lane I know how wise you are - I have seen you on these forums and I know you aren't about to enable me. Thank-you for that. I'm not ready tonight to ask him to leave but I realize this may have to happen yet.

We just had a long conversation by text and he started to admit he has a problem and that it needs to change. We will have to continue conversation tomorrow because we are both too tired now. I hope the outcome is good.

Our convo:

Him: I wish I could go back 5 days and everything would be normal. You went from fine to deeply hurt in a matter of days. I'm sorry I hurt you but I don't want to change who I am.

Me: Because of how you treated me 2 days ago, Because you aren't allowed to treat me with disrespect. It will always impact me this way- to have the one I love the most and is supposed to love me and treat me with the utmost care take a hammer to me and lay me out flat. You don't take your anger out on me and none of this happens.

Him:I don't even know what started this. I was having an aweful day when this started and you were asking me for stuff and I wanted in writing what you wanted me to say to Mikr and before that I'm blank and after I'm blank. I don't even know why you wanted to meet for lunch that day. I don't want to go through it again. I'm sorry I got mad at you it wasn't all about you. I think I was letting off steam and it got directed your way.

Me: On any other day you would have just texted me the number or told me you were too busy. I get that you were having a bad day. I knew you were taking your frustration and unhappiness out on me. It's what I need you to change. To not hurt the one who is closest to you in anger. I need you to control your anger around me because of the way it decimates me when you don't. I need you to take responsibility for your anger and not blame it on me. You want me to help you or change behaviour that bothers you I will do it. Just tell me instead of snapping and beating me up (emotionally) I don't want to bulldoze you anymore. I don't want you to feel like I am running over you. I will work on anything you need me to but I need you to stop taking your anger out on me (and the kids). Will you stop taking your anger out on me?

Him: what if its you I'm mad at?

Me: Then choose to leave the room, don't respond - I will respect your need for space like I did two nights ago. Then when you have calmed down tell me what frustrated you and we can talk.

Him:You want me to go away every time I'm mad. I guess I'm mad a lot if this is an issue.

Then I explained some more and time for sleep. Sucks we have to revisit this tomorrow. I know if I just would tell him it's this way or you need to leave - it would let him know how hurtful his behaviour is. I just need to see where he goes from here and if he's willing to change his behaviour for me- tomorrow's conversation.

Thank-you Neera. I hope so!

Mae, he needs to do more than leave the room. He needs to STOP getting angry. That is the problem. And he has told you he does not want to change for you.

So unless you know how to change him against his will, there is nothing you can do other than separate and take steps to protect yourself.

He has told you over and over again he won't change for you. He said no. And trying to change him will only make him more angry which will make him more dangerous to you.

Your husband is what Dr Harley would call a "freeloader" in his book, Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

You need to let him know that Yes, if he had ever taken your feeling into account, he would have read that you can even eliminate the feelings of anger.
If you get mad at the kids, you can do this to Mae.

However, saying he won't get help because you get mad at the kids is just trying to get the pressure off of him.

Let him know this isn't something that was a problem two days ago. Tell him he is an angry man. You are not willing to put up with it anymore.

From Lovebusters:
Dr Harley: " An angry outburst is a deliberate attempt to hurt your spouse because of anger, usually in the form of verbal or physical attacks.
When selfish demands and disrespectful judgments fail to get you what you need from your spouse, your Taker's next approach is to use angry outbursts...
Angry outburst are abusive and controlling, but your Taker justifies them by trying to convince you that your spouse makes you lose your temper.
An angry outburst is temporary insanity, and the direction it take is unpredictable. Permanent physical damage and even murder can occur during an angry outburst where the risk had not been apparent prior to the episode. This is an important reason why couples should have NO tolerance for angry outbursts."

Step One for overcoming AO is to acknowledge the fact that you, and only you, determine if you will have an angry outburst. No one "makes" you angry.

Let me encourage you Mae, your gut is right... you can do this.
Tell him you would be more than happy to create a safe romantic marriage with him and address every complaint he has about you... but ONLY after he takes Anger management and can guarantee you and your kids safety. Until then, noting else will be addressed.

I spoke to him again tonight. He wants me to be happy and said he was trying to change. I sent him the freeloaders link and anger mgmt 101 and I will discuss it with him later.

He has only ever seen anger as natural and felt like he was doing great not spanking kids and (mostly) not yelling. Him and I rarely raise our voices to each other either anymore. His abusive text was so shocking because I'm not used to that.

I feel we are getting on the right path.

Mae, this is how my husband justified his angry outbursts: "I never raised my voice!!" But he was still having an angry outburst. One doesn't need to raise their voice to have an angry outburst.

Ok Mel, what was he doing? Hitting you? Throwing things? I have wondered at what point certain occurrences would be classified as AO's myself.

No, it is when a person is ANGRY and lashes out at their spouse. One doesn't have to even raise their voice to do that. My husband rarely, if ever, raised his voice, but he had angry shows of temper.

Have you read the chapter on angry outbursts?

Ok that's good to know. I would agree with you. I do get tense when he's angry because I know he doesn't have a tight rein on his temper. Mostly this is in relation to kids because the more I have tried to POJA with him the last couple years the less his frustration leading to AO. He certainly has had trouble in the past empathizing with me and so will dj.

I realize we have a lot of bad habits I have created by not speaking up more. It's easier to be independent than attemp POJA with someone that can have AO.

I want to change this together and he is starting to read some of Dr Harley's info. Can we not start UA this week?

That sounds great!

When I arrived in 2010, the majority of people posting on my thread did not know what Dr. Harley said about anger. They did not give me Dr. Harley's advice. My original thread is not full of good advice, so I wouldn't point anybody there to learn what Dr. Harley says about AOs.

When I started posting to Dr. Harley himself, he told me that nothing I did would matter until Markos eliminated his anger. The AOs MUST be dealt with first. Telling a woman that she must work on her side of the street WHILE HER HUSBAND IS HAVING AOs is very, very dangerous advice.

You did not have access to the private forum on which most of my threads were posted. The majority of the focus BY DR. HARLEY was on markos' AOs.

Is he willing to stop his AOs?

He is willing to do what it takes to make me happy. He is just becoming aware of the extent of the problem from my perspective. He listened to the anger mgmt 101 and we have started to talk a little. I think it's a start. I had written Joyce about the issue also and they are sending me the book "he wins she wins".