Meh... I'm not paranoid by nature, but I'd at least consider that this was somewhat intentional on your W's part HOTI. I understand everyone else giving her the benefit of the doubt, but given her history of lies, and manipulation, is it really all that implausible?

Let's look at the facts, shall we?

-She knows you have poor boundary enforcement.
-She knows that you have been desperate for sex.
-She knows you are unhappy and consider divorce regularly.
-She knows that no man in his right mind, and with a capacity to support her will have her in her present state.

Considering what she did to attract you in the first place, is it too cynical to think she'd pull something like this to keep you?

I can't decide if this is a Blake Edwards bedroom farce, or a Greek tragedy.

Agreed. I don't think she did it on purpose. Not even unconsciously.

On the other hand, Seabird can rest assured that even if she did, it will not increase the odds of my staying with her. If she thought I would feel "stuck" with her and thus stay longer, she is going to find out that I feel more "stuck" with her and thus more motivated to leave. If anything, this will not lead to less boundary enforcement. It will lead to more vigorous boundary enforcement.


Well, it wasn't a deal breaker for me. So I must admit it is possible there is a woman out there who is as foolish as I was.

The good news for such a woman is that she won't face a difficult choice, because there isn't going to be a next wife. Whether Mrs. Hold and I part at death or before, I won't be playing this game again.

You weren't foolish. In the end your choice turned out to be a bad one, not because your W has an STD, but because she simply was so wounded or broken that she was unable to care for you in the least.

I believe there is a woman out there who would be honored to have you for a H ... so long as she didn't allow you to continue to wallow in your own self-pity like you do so often. I'd hope she'd be one to be strong enough to bust your chops and help you get your mind right.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that marriage isn't worth it and to you its just some kind of sick game. For me it has been a long road in which I've had to do some hard work but in the end it is SOOOO worth it because there is NOTHING I cherish more than the love of my W. I wish that for you Hold.

To me it is not worth the risk. If a woman loves me, we can date, or live together. If she wants to get married, I would be terrified that she has an agenda that is not in my interest. There is nothing she could say or do to convince me that she isn't planning to stop meeting my ENs as soon as we get married. The more she pushed for marriage, the more I would resist.

As I have said before, the only way I would marry again is if she made it worth my while to take that risk. Through an enormous up front cash payment combined with a prenuptial that made it clear I owe nothing upon divorce.

Which is why I feel I am correct to not want to get married. For marriage to be worthwhile, both spouses have to be committed to it. They have to be invested. And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

So even if I got married again, I would not have both feet and my whole heart in it. As I see it, it wouldn't be fair of me to marry anyone under those conditions.

Do you disagree?

I agree it wouldn't be fair.

I'm gonna hold out hope that this won't always be your mantra. I'm gonna hope that love will pervail and you will one day want to trust someone enough to be, yet again, vulnerable and toss both feet and your heart into the relationship.

It doesn't necessarily need to be a marriage but it does need to be a healthy relationship. Who knows what the future holds.

I will agree that you are now better positioned to not let history repeat itself.

I guess the STD is redundant and irrelevant then?

I said I don't want to get married again, I didn't say I don't want to have sex again. The STD is quite relevant to future sex.

I don't know what to say. I guess you've sealed your fate with this woman.

Just when I thought she couldn't do you much more harm.

What a warm, wonderful person, that Mrs. Hold--such a giving soul.

Stephen King couldn't write a better nightmare.

No offense man, but when you say stuff like this:


...it makes me hope that you don't have sex with anyone else again. At least not until you can change your attitude w/re to dealing with someone else.

Do you recognize the cyclical pattern here? How your wife's abuse led her to abusing you, and how that might lead you to abusing someone else, albeit in a different way?

Hmmm, well, I'm not looking to have sex with anyone at this point. And even when I am, I doubt anyone would oblige me. So I don't think you have to worry about me doing so any time soon.

On the other hand, I don't see it as necessarily abusive to have sex with someone despite not caring about them enough to marry them. I understand some people are uncomfortable with premarital sex. But I am fine with it. I didn't say I wouldn't care about someone else AT ALL. Just not enough to commit to marrying them.

I don't think I will be abusive in my next relationship (assuming there is one). Rather, I think I will be extremely gun shy about total emotional commitment. If you see it as abusive to have sex in that context, we can agree to disagree.

At this point, it's hard for me to imagine you away from Mrs. Hold. If I were to bet, I'd put my money against that happening.

But if you do, (and how I wish you did long ago), may you find a healthy, happy, kind and wonderful woman. They are out there, I can tell you. My marriage was somewhat similar to yours, and after having gone through the pain, and being reborn into a relationship with a sexy, warm, generous and REASONABLE woman, the difference is like night and day.

I really hope one day you shake the curse that is MRs. Hold.

Think about what you're saying here HOTI. I know - you probably do think about it quite a bit. Just a figure of speech.

But... What is it you think you want then? An FB relationship? No strings attached sex? Sex with a predefined limit of emotional attachment? Is that something you can get together with a potential partner over a cup of coffee and map out ahead of time?

Or do you play it close to the vest? Not let on just how closed off and withdrawn you are? Let her assume that your feelings for her will grow?

Like your W did with you?

That's what I was getting at. The abuse I was referring to is that inherent dishonesty about where your limitations are and just what your potential partner can accept from you.

I mean really, what kind of half decent, non-enabling, non-codependent woman is going to willingly step into an involvement with you while you maintain this attitude? Anyone who will isn't going to be any better for you than your W. She might give up the hoohah a lot more, but you'll just be trading in for a whole new set of problems.

Why am I, the younger guy who barely squeaked through a city college, telling YOU this???

Know something else? I still think we're enabling you here. I think you're getting some ENs filled by this place, and it's holding you back. At some point, MB has become an addiction for you, feeding a need that you should be getting outside.

"I'm your pusher-man, baby." /Isaak Hayes

Yes, exactly. Friends but not life partners. No strings. If there aren't any women who want that, then I guess I will do without. I mostly did without for years and years before I got married. I can do that again. Much easier to do without while single than to do without lying next to someone every night.

I am not looking for the "brass ring". I am not looking for deep love or lifetime commitment. FB sounds very appealing at this point.

You are not the first person to suggest I should want more out of life. I am not willing to pay the price for more.


No, I won't hide who I am and how I feel. I didn't hide myself from Mrs. Hold before we got married. I told her that I wanted lots of sex and that I have depressive tendencies and that she could expect me to under-perform my educational accomplishments. She just didn't believe me on either count.

I hide my feelings now because I want to stay with the kids. Once that is over, no reason for me to hide anything.


You are correct. No woman who is "together" is going to want me while I remain so damaged. I realize that now. You may see that as motivation to fix my damaged psyche. I just see it as reason to be on the lookout for something dark inside I haven't seen yet - because if she is willing to date me, it must be down there somewhere.

Ignoring that reality is what happened to Mrs. Hold and me. Neither of us could believe the other person was willing to "settle" for us. We were blind to the reality that something that seems "too good to be true" probably is - and to the dark secrets buried inside both of us.

In the future, I will not be blind to the likelihood that I am only seeing the tip of the iceberg. That will keep me from committing. And from knowing the joy that others report feeling from a truly intimate relationship. But it will also keep me from receiving a gash "below the waterline" that causes my ship to sink.

When you talk about how you told all these things to Mrs. Hold, it reminds me of me in my early life I met men who told me, this is all I can give, I can't give any more. And I ignored it, in the hope that my caring would cause them to love me more.

Mrs. Hold probably felt the same way. Now, this is no excuse for the things she has done, but I think you need to know that if you come across as a decent guy, women will not believe that you can't or won't commit.

Its the reason that women used to go gaga for Mr. Spock. "Oh, but if he only experienced me loving him, he'd change".

No, Mrs. Hold thought I was being modest as to my career abilities and "bragging" about a sex drive she didn't think I possesed given my lack of experience and generally passive nature. I don't think she believed she could "inspire" me to be different than I proclaimed to be. I think she thought I already was different than I proclaimed to be, and that she was shocked when I turned out to be exactly as I described myself.


At this point in my life, I am not prepared to take on responsibility for what someone else believes. Under MB concepts, it is a DJ for me to assume I know what they are thinking or what motivates them. All I can do is be honest and let them choose their behavior. If a woman tells me she believes I will eventually commit to her, all I can do is communicate my feeling of how unlikely that is.

I have spent a lifetime worrying about how other people feel and how my behavior might hurt them. I have been a "nice guy". All it has gotten me is pain. If I am ever single, I am not going to take it upon myself to protect another person from themselves. I am going to ask for what I want. They are free to say no. If they say yes, it is not my responsibility to ensure they are saying yes for the "right" reason. Trying to put myself inside the other person's head is what got me into this mess in the first place.

Do you ever recall any significant victories in your life?

And I dislike saying "hold" and "HOTI". Can I use your real first name? If not, I understand.

Nope. Last "win" was getting into law school. And that was purely on grades and scores. Which for me was genetics, not hard work.


I would prefer if you didn't. But you can call me tax if you want something with less relationship connotations.

Not even when you graduated from law school? I'm just wondering if it's been so long since you've tasted "chocolate", you forgot how good it could be.

What about when you started running? No sense of accomplishment? No feelings of, "Wow! I never thought I could do -that-!"?

Understood on the name. It's not the relationship connotation. Those other two terms just sound silly to my ear.

How about "Tex the Tax Man"?

Gives you a sort of cowboy aura. Content to spend nights alone on the range, with just the coyotes for company. Honest and WYSIWYG. A love-em-and-leave-em, no strings attached lone wolf.

I think I would feel ultra-gay calling him that.

Keep your fantasies out of this jayne.