Originally Posted by themud

I disagree, he stayed because he had responsibilities. I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important. To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided. A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.

In my situation I would have not married my wife knowing we would have gone through what we are going through. I would have found someone else and explained that sex is a priority to me in a M. I do believe my wife and I had this discussion and it wasn't an issue with her, she couldn't imagine refusing me nightly for years, then months, then to the point where I just didn't initiate. My wife and I were like rabbits. Is this normal? Maybe, but I wasn't striving for a normal M, and normal would be divorce now-a-days for selfish reasons.

IMO it's noble for a man to stay with his wife and family, atleast until the family is raised.

Oh, believe me, I was in a very similar situation as Hold dating back, what 2002?

I've posted here almost every day, and mainly focused on the lack of sex, or unmet SF.

All I am saying is understand what MB principle is about. It takes 2 to make the marriage work. And if 1 spouse is not willing, then it is up to the other spouse to look at himself/herself and make decisions.

Making a decision, at least for me leads to seeking further knowledge. And one of the very first "a ha" moments I learned here is that "I can only change myself, and I should only change myself for the reason of wanting that change for myself" --not to change for my spouse, not to change "expecting" it will change my spouse. I can change me, and can only hope my spouse choose to change herself.

Hold has thought out and even discussed divorce with his wife. I'm sure I read some of his post on that thought.

In my case, it was around the end of 2006 when we were in IC/MC when we were discussing separation and D. By 2007, I decided / realize / believe that my marriage exist because I still choose to be in the marriage; likewise, she is choosing to be married to me. The talk of D was a waste because we both know that if the marriage dies, it leads to a D.

It was also my own struggle to put weight and value to sex. Believe me, I was at some point in the belief that sex without marriage is not a marriage. I've wandered off MB and found other sources of knowledge along the way.

Here's another fact:
A marriage can exist with sex.
A marriage can exist without sex.
Sex can happen in marriage.
Sex can happen without marriage.

My point is, sex is just ONE factor of the marriage. I thought long about my values and beliefs, and my marriage have many other values I want in my life. Sex is just ONE.

That said, I found another source from No More Mr Nice Guy (NMMNG) by Glover. One other "a ha" moment for me that took a while to accept was something like this: "I am the only person in the world who is responsible for meeting my needs."

That sounded contradictory to MB. But looking at it this way, if I can meet all my needs, then I am a whole person and do not need anyone in my life.

My Marriage is now shaped by what I put into, plus what she puts into. Likewise, my wife has her own marriage defined by what she puts into.

The NMMNG also covers a few principles that MB has touched upon. Love Buster is the same as passive-aggressive behaviors. The "no expectations" is similar to "hidden contracts."

Anyway, I think one difference in my approach from Hold is that I began to accept myself just the way I am, human, male with needs, where sex is a natural need and it is not shameful, with flaws, and worthy of love and care.

I was in some period of time where I withdraw and spiral into some depressing pit that just generates resentment. I've become more aware when my mind set goes in that thinking pattern, and instead I do things to promote positives in my life be it family, health, diet, and personal growth.

Reading Hold's posts does not seem he had changed in how he thinks of himself, a victim trapped. Hold is intelligent and can find answers, but he needs to take the risk to overcome what trepidations he has to enforce his personal boundaries so that he leads a life he wants.

-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

05.20.06: "If you live each day as if it was your last, someday you'll most certainly be right."