Another way to do pullups, too: get a resistance band and sling it over something high and sturdy--placing a hook high on a wall will work, if you don't wish to tempt a drapery rod or ceiling fan. Then you pull DOWN, instead of pulling yourself UP. Works the same. Our routine involves a lot of pull-ups, and I do mine on the bowflex, pulling down.

Yes, I just recently heard someone point that out as well - not just the humans, but I think all the animals in the beginning of Genesis were vegetarians/vegans, as in, only eating plants.

Another interesting observation: it was after they ate the forbidden fruit that animals were first killed for clothing.

(ETA: Although I just noticed, "Abel kept flocks." And apparently killed them also.)

I gotta wonder about the first person who said, "Hm, check out that cow. I think I wanna wear that." lol

I also recently read that humans are the only species that drink the milk of other species. And I thought, it's not that we're the only ones who DO, it's that we're the only ones who CAN.

Actually, that isn't true, about humans being the only species.

Ants "milk" aphids.

For real!

(Also, barn cats won't turn away from a squirt!)

(Although your statement reminds me of a quote I thought was attributed to Mark Twain: "Humans are the only animals who cry... or need to."

Hold,

Has she looked at that xp90 or whatever? That is based on the crossfit, and is actually crossfit in a box.

I have one friend that felt he had to buy a package. He was really trimming dow, but stubbed his toe and even though it's healed now he hasn't resumed the workouts or diet. His poor W wants him to slim down for attraction and health.

Hi Jayne, I think the Mark Twain quote is "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to."

I'm doing P90X, and it's awesome. Easy to adjust to skill level.

cwm,

THATS CROSSFIT!

*blushes*, that's right!!!

She wouldn't want to do P90X unless she could find a group to join her. She likes the camaraderie of going to the gym and seeing familiar faces. It is part of her ritual. And helps her motivate. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Might work for me!

This is where we are. Look at the following e-mail exchange:

Message #1:
From: Sears <sears@sears.com>
To: Holdingontoit
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:08 am
Subject: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

Message #2:
From: Holdingontoit
To: Mrs. Hold
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 6:10 pm
Subject: Fwd: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

Somehow I think the wrong one of us got this message. Otherwise, I need to go on a strict diet to reduce my man-boobs!

Message #3:
From: Mrs. Hold
To: Holdingontoit
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

I LUV your man-boobs


If we were getting along well. With positive love bank balances. I would feel loved by receiving that message. But in my current state of withdrawal. I feel nothing. Except a vague sense of regret that I don't feel anything positive. I feel so lonely. Which is all in my head. But not lonely enough to change my behavior.

Mrs. Hold was pleasant last night when I first came home. But snippy later after I played PS3 in the kitchen. She wants me to come be with her. But doesn't want to have to ask for it. Just like me and sex. We are so well matched to drive each other crazy! Unfortunately, not in a good way.

She's tossing stones into the creek. Not enough yet to be visible from the surface...

... but if you don't purposefully kick them away, they may accumulate.

I we were getting along well. With positive love bank balances. I would feel loved by receiving that message. But in my current state of withdrawal. I feel nothing. Except a vague sense of regret that I don't feel anything positive. I feel so lonely. Which is all in my head. But not lonely enough to change my behavior.

Hold...I think if you were in a true state of withdrawal, you might not even feel the regret. How much exclusive time do you spend with your wife - like maybe taking a walk and talking or sitting somewhere quiet with very little other distractions? Can you see yourself just doing this to do it and removing any pressure off yourself to feel anything? Stop analyzing how you feel? Just to see what happens after several attempts?

T/J (sorry)

My trainer just told me she uses a lot of the Crossfit program as well as the P90X stuff.

I'm thinking about ordering the P90X.

Hold,

I'm there with you. Complements don't go very far.

OH,

Don't waste your money on the p90x. Buy a pull up bar, jump robe and a 10lb kettle ball and you'll be set to do the body weight xfit and you can scale down or up, unless you feel you "need" a program, just hate to see people do that when xfit is free.

If you do buy the p90x, don't just follow it for 90 days, cycle through it again once you are done etc.

Mud:

I've got a bunch of questions. I dont' want to hijack Hold's thread. I will post in "Other Topics" in a bit...ok? I'll put your name in the thread title.

OK,

Hold, do you think W would have had SF with you then? I know that exercise can increase ones testosterone even in women, which might increase their libido. Thoughts?

I currently spend almost zero time alone with my wife in recreational activities. Am I willing to spend more time with her? No. Hurts too much when it does not lead to sex. I understand that I am DJing my wife. I am predicting that she has not changed and will not change and that my past experience will be repeated. I understand it is possible we might spend time together and she might react differently than she did in the past. I am not willing to take the risk that she won't. I am confortable in my Withdrawal.

Which is exactly where I am. Unwilling to move to the state of Conflict. If I were willing to spend time with her and then attempt to POJA more sex, that would create Conflict.

I insist that she Plan A me. She meet my needs. With no expectation of immediate reciprocation. In the hope that I will eventually choose to meet her needs in return. Not POJA, where I brainstorm and negotiate ways for both of us to be enthusiastic currently. I am not going to be enthusiastic about having to "earn" SF.

I know that is not how Dr. Harley says it works. Eliminate LBs. Work to meet her needs. And the sex will follow. Not for us. Not after 8 years of counselling and me working to meet her needs and getting nothing in return. Either she shows herself willing to provide SF whether or not her needs are getting met or I continue to play PS3.

The good news is that I am getting older. My sex drive is way down. I don't miss it as much. I still hold it against her that it doesn't happen more often. But the absence is not as debilitating. I used to play computer games and spend much of the time fretting about the lack of sex. The games were not sufficiently distracting. Now I play PS3 for hours and I do not give a single thought to Mrs. Hold or to sex.

In the past I missed her and reached out to her and got rejected. Now, she comes to visit me at the console and I am curt with her. These days, I prefer the "sure thing" of rejecting her to the risky and messy process of negotiating to get my needs met. I still don't get my needs met. But at least I don't get overtly rejected.

My "game plan" is to wait until the kids are grown. Then give our marriage another chance. At that point she could not hold custody of the kids over my head. So I can see myself negotiating on a more level playing field.

I understand by ignoring her I am taking the chance that she will choose to divorce me before the kids leave. I see that as a very low risk. I don't totally ignore her. We talk every day. I bought her the cooktop and the new tv. It is just at night after the kids are asleep that I avoid being alone with her in the bedroom. I don't imagine she will hold that against me enough to divorce over.


I was at the office and she was home. No opportunity for sex. Do I think she might have more sex with me than in the past because she exercises more? Maybe. Am I willing to "woo" her in the hopes she will? No. I am done with wooing her. BTDT. Have the scars and burn marks to prove it. At this point she needs to woo me.

She gets the paycheck married or divorced. She wants the time and attention, she needs to show that she can reliably meet my need for SF. Otherwise, she can take her ENs and do whatever she wants with them. But don't bring them to me.

I have been reading the recent posts on themud's thread. Several women have said "you need to make it safe for her, she can sense your resentment, and it prevents her from feeling safe".

In my case, that is the whole point. I am NOT safe for Mrs. Hold. I want and need sex. When there is no SF, I resent her. I am not going to stop feeling that way unless and until my need for SF has been met consistently and abundantly for a significant period of time. If our SF depends on her feeling safe with me, there will never be SF between us. I guess I do not love her enough to make it safe for her.

Maybe if we had worked this out earlier in our marriage I could have given her the time and space to feel safe without pressure from me for sex. But we are long past that. I want sex and I want it now and I don't care whether that puts pressure on her or makes her feel unsafe. She can feel safe later.

Which is why I feel we are incompatible. She is a rape victim. I know her need for safety is even stronger than for other women. And the requirement for me to be safe even more important. And I can no longer be that for her.

Hold,

my heart does hurt for you and themud, however I think you guys can make it, cause you keep trying.

couple questions for you if you don't mind.

If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you??

When she is angry with you??

When she is hurt by something you have said??

When she feels she has to because its one of your EN??

Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??