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CWMI #2432930 10/07/10 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
I just need to let my brass pair drop again, and do it.

rotflmao

You can do it, hon.

I would, however, reconsider leaving your husband with custody of the children. I know WHY you want to do that, but if he doesn't want to be 'weighed down' by a family, I can't imagine him being a good father to your kids by himself.

I know - it isn't fair he gets to make a mess and then walk away from responsibility but you have to think about what is best for your kids. They aren't bargaining tools, and you aren't a judge dispensing justice on your husband from the bench.

You are a mother and a wife who has been put through the wringer.

I hope you would consider a reasonable custody split regarding the children. Perhaps discussion with a lawyer would be a good idea, if you consider going the legal separation route.



Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Vibrissa #2432962 10/07/10 11:12 AM
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CMWI-

I second visiting a lawyer (or two) if you haven't already, to figure out the best way to deal with custody.

In my state, for example, physical and the other part of custody is granted 50% to each parent as the norm.

Also, in my state, there's no ability to legally separate.

And, in my state, the parent that leaves the martial home is considered to have abandoned the family, which obviously isn't a positive thing.

I also hope that you get a chance to really work through your finances before you implement Plan B. I'd just hate to see you and your kids suffer with basic needs being met.


CWMI #2432977 10/07/10 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
I believe in marriage as laid out by MB, with all the EPs and care and protection and POJA and RH and, well, all of it.

You are correct, I do not buy into his view that we must live at the whim of external forces and just 'deal with it'.

kt, you have argued with me about the benefits of GNO and how you see no problem with your wife going out on a party bus for a night of drinking with her co-workers, so I do not put much credibility into your advice re: MB in general, nor my sitch in particular.

Good for you! If you read my history at the end of my post, you will see that I was duped by xwh with a coworker. It hurt like hell, left me with trust issues regarding men, and lowered my self esteem. Please stick to you guns on this one. GB


Female
BW
XWH
Divorced
9 years married
2 years had known spouse before marriage
Both EA&PA
OP was: single
OP was:co-worker
Gerberdaisies #2433003 10/07/10 02:22 PM
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Well, you all know how WS's get angry when BS's expose?

It's no different for LS (lying spouses). Turns out one of my 'pressurizers' I called has, erm, 'spread the word' and one of my H's old bosses showed up at his new place of business today to apparently sniff around. H is not pleased. Feels he is 'getting it from all sides!' Said I'm making his life very difficult and affecting his reputation! See, he lied to them, too, told them that he was quitting there because he'd found a new job that had no travel or spouse-excluding events. Made a pretty big deal about it, too.

I told him I was sorry that his life was more difficult. That I had hoped that the changes we made would make it easier and more fulfilling. Then I asked him if he would like chicken and broccoli alfredo for dinner.

IRC, Vibrissa, it would actually work out better for me financially if I kept the kids. My state has no legal separation, but you can file a separation agreement anyway, it's more like a legal contract than anything having to do with civil marriage. The lawyer draws it up and it is legally binding, enforceable only through breach of contract suit, though.

I think I would prefer to file D, and get temporary orders for custody and support and residency that are enforceable as violations of a court order. I like teeth and shiny brass things. smile As fun as it sounds to ride off into the sunset unencumbered and leaving him with this mess, ya'll are right.

He texted me an ILU after our conversation earlier. I just get so weary of the same-old same-old. I wish I had a solution that worked for both of us, but you know what they say, wish in one hand and poo in the other and see which one fills up the fastest? I've got fistfuls of BOTH, dagnabit.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2433004 10/07/10 02:31 PM
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CWMI at the end of the day he will have to face the consequences of his actions.

Quote
See, he lied to them, too, told them that he was quitting there because he'd found a new job that had no travel or spouse-excluding events. Made a pretty big deal about it, too.

Further proof that he KNEW what the requirements for the new job were. I could understand his being upset if the job reversed a previous promise for no travel, etc., but he got no promise from them, just assumptions and wishful thinking.

His deceitful behavior (and I believed he deceived himself here too) has completely eroded your love for him. It has affected his career standing. These are the consequences of HIS decisions.

You can't protect a person from the consequences of their mistakes. It was his job to keep your love for him intact. He knew it was tenuous at best, he knew what he had to do to keep it as you were very clear and you now have outside confirmation of that from his old boss. He decided to do a shoddy job and now the consequences are here.

He loves you enough to want you around, but not enough to try to keep you happy while you're there. He loves you because you make his life better in some way, but that love doesn't inspire him to make your life better. That's why his mantra is for you to 'just deal' with everything. It seems his ideal world has you meeting his needs, leaving him free to meet your needs as they are convenient or when then can be bent around his true values: himself, his image, and his job. There's a word for that: Freeloader.

He needs to face the consequences of the Love Bank balance he has overdrawn in your account. You can't keep giving him loans. He never repays.

Last edited by Vibrissa; 10/07/10 02:32 PM.

Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Vibrissa #2433021 10/07/10 03:46 PM
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I think you should do some plan "C"...but not the way he wants it. You are not being clear on your boundaries to him.
First of all I agree that he should have investigated more about this job. However, right now you are in the situation you are in.

He may be thinking that his boss' daughters homecoming game is a "work event" which he is inviting you to. He is trying to make the best of it by calling it a "date night". But you are turning him down. So you say you want to attend work events but then are saying no I don't.

He bought tickets for you to fly out with him on his trip. You said either no trips or you would be with him. He is making sure you are with him. But now it is not so important for you to be with him because it is a pain in the butt for you. So you want him to upset his professional life but you won't go on a trip with him?

I think you should consider putting your money where your mouth is and go with him in these situations to show how important this really is to you.

Vibrissa #2433030 10/07/10 04:19 PM
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But, but...Vibrissa, he wouldn't have to face consequences of his actions and decisions if I didn't tell people what he did! So it's MY fault! puke


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2433034 10/07/10 04:32 PM
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I'm not really sure that exposure is a good strategy against other offenses besides unfaithfulness. I often threatened to drag Prisca's failings before her parents or others whom I felt could pressure her to do things differently, and I have become convinced that doing so was one of the most hurtful things I could have done to her. It was an angry outburst on my part, punishing her for things she had done. It was a disrespectful judgment on my part, trying to educate her into the "right" way to do things (Marriage Builders). And it was a selfish demand: threatening punishment if I didn't get my way. It was all the abusive love busters rolled into one.

You read here long enough, you see what a powerful weapon exposure is, and if things aren't going well sometimes you wish you could use that weapon, too. But an affair is a more serious and more hurtful thing than anything I have ever experienced.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
wannabophim #2433035 10/07/10 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wannabophim
I think you should do some plan "C"...but not the way he wants it. You are not being clear on your boundaries to him.
First of all I agree that he should have investigated more about this job. However, right now you are in the situation you are in.

I am in the situation I am in right now because we were BOTH clear my boundaries but somebody was being deceptive and crossed them. We had big issues about him spending off-time on work when it was not required of him. Homecoming is not required of him. He is not going. Well, as of right now he is not going, but there's always tomorrow, and he very well may change his mind several times between now and then.

Do you recognize any difference between required events and brown-nosing non-required events? The agreement was that if he was REQUIRED to attend any work events, I would be able to accompany him. Not that I would willingly follow him around once a week to non-essential semi-work stuff. Achieving a better balance between home and work was a major factor in the decision to switch jobs. He told SH that he could not make plans with me because of his job, and SH told him that if he was going to blame the job, he needed to get a new one that didn't require so much of his attention.

Going with him on trips is an old agreement (which never worked anyway), and was voided when the new agreement was made that he would take this job that required NO TRIPS.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
markos #2433040 10/07/10 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
I'm not really sure that exposure is a good strategy against other offenses besides unfaithfulness. I often threatened to drag Prisca's failings before her parents or others whom I felt could pressure her to do things differently, and I have become convinced that doing so was one of the most hurtful things I could have done to her. It was an angry outburst on my part, punishing her for things she had done. It was a disrespectful judgment on my part, trying to educate her into the "right" way to do things (Marriage Builders). And it was a selfish demand: threatening punishment if I didn't get my way. It was all the abusive love busters rolled into one.

You read here long enough, you see what a powerful weapon exposure is, and if things aren't going well sometimes you wish you could use that weapon, too. But an affair is a more serious and more hurtful thing than anything I have ever experienced.

If you recall, I was the one being threatened with punishment if he didn't get his way. I asked a couple of close people to please speak to him about NOT destroying his family. At the time, he was refusing to speak to me at all.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2433041 10/07/10 04:56 PM
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Him threatening punishment doesn't mean you are incapable of it as well.

I figured you griped about the situation to someone and the grapevine did it's work.

The more and more I think about it Plan B is in order for you CWMI. I don't think you are capable (not from lack of ability, but from just trying for so long) of reigning in your Taker anymore.

Your Love Bank is deeply in the red.

Could you have done better? Probably.

Is there stuff on your side of the street you need to work on? I think so and I think you would agree with me.

You commit LBs, you could probably do better at meeting ENs. You're not getting a free pass on that, but I think it likely that you have done all you can do and suffered all you can suffer.

But you don't have to be PERFECT in order to be loved, you have to be trying. I don't think you can try anymore. I think you're tapped out.

Do you think it POSSIBLE you could muster up the energy for one last go - round? To take your family on this trip that has landed in your lap and try to make the best of it. Try to be loving and pleasant. Drop the attitude and eliminate the DJs for a couple of days? One last try to reconnect with your husband. Give him one last chance to meet your needs?


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
CWMI #2433060 10/07/10 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Do you recognize any difference between required events and brown-nosing non-required events?

I do. Where I worked before, there were frequent happy hours at a nearby Irish pub that frequently went until 9 or 10 at night. I mean just about every night of the week. I was a defense contractor and the government employees would hold court network, and everyone was encouraged to kiss [censored] build relationships with our customers, so they would like us and give us more money and better assignments.

I almost never went, partly because my tiny engineer brain thinks that the job I do at work should speak for itself, and that I shouldn't have to brown nose to get ahead. I also disliked many of the government employees on a personal level, and the idea of standing around drinking with people I don't even like in the first place was foreign to me. Finally, my wife was a SAHM (still is) and looked forward to me coming home for dinner (still does).

My wife and I POJA'd that I'd go to two happy hours a month, and come home in time to help put the kids to bed (7 or so).

That said, I recognize that a certain amount of networking is required in many jobs, some fields more than others. I also recognize (in my field at least) that those who network better and build relationships do better than those who are technically superior. It's something I'm struggling with professionally, especially now as a project lead.


Me - 44
DW - 39
Married 16 years
DS10
DS6
DD4
bitbucket #2433219 10/08/10 01:03 PM
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lol @ bit. I wholly agree with you that schmoozers a-kissers family-neglecters employees who take advantage of opportunities to network get farther faster in business than people who value relationships over money, success and recognition those who don't. You will get no argument from me on that point.

What I will argue is: people who value money, possessions, material success, and the admiration and recognition of a bunch of suits over the well-being and admiration of their own spouses and children have no business having spouses and children. I've been beaten up about this before on this board, but my argument stands: I did not marry a job or a paycheck. I married a man.

We had a pretty productive conversation last night, and I got answers to some of KT's questions. It was like pulling teeth to get it started, but it ended well. The tough part was getting him engaged, and that's so very frustrating to me. During the course of the convo he mentioned how connected to me he'd felt over the last several months after not feeling that 'for a long time' and how much he loved the feeling of connection.

Well, this is how it started: we'd just put the little ones down to bed and came out to the living room. I sat on the sofa, he sat in the chair and picked up the remote. I asked him if he would come sit by me, that I needed some physical affection from him. He said, "I gave you that this morning." I said I wasn't talking about sex, but physical closeness, he'd been away all day and things are tense and I would like to be able to rest into his body. He sighed, got up, put the remote down, and sat next to me, said, "Is this what you want?" I said yes, this is perfect, then I laid back against one armrest and put my legs up and patted for him to put his legs up, too, and just started chatting, and we stayed that way for a good hour.

And I'm thinking, THIS is how you 'feel connected', you REACH for it, you OPEN yourself to bids for connection...nobody is going to 'feel connected' if they close off connection over a fit of self-righteousness.

So, to KT's q about what marriage is to him, I got that kind of tangentially, it would take pages and pages to get to where we were in the conversation, but the short version is: he felt attacked and said that he could make a list of a 100 pages of everything I've ever done wrong, so I told him that I would love to see that list but if he was in the mood to make a list right now, I'd really like to see a list of what he thinks marriage is made of, a list of what marriage means to him.

He didn't write it down, I didn't either, but he said what I expected him to say given the MB education. Spending time together, growing a life together, being O&H, being BFFs, taking care of each other...the part that sparked the most interesting conversation (to me) was when he said TEAMWORK.

I asked him what he meant by teamwork. Did he mean working together toward a shared goal? Yes. What did he see as being our shared goal? What did he think he was doing toward working for it, what did he see me doing, where did he see me failing, where did he see himself?

My failings are not being happy about the new deal, changing my support of the new job, and asking others for help in what should be our personal problem.

His failings were not being O&H, but he doesn't feel that is a failing anymore since he told me about the event and trip as soon as he knew.

I love the guy, loved talking with him last night even though it was difficult to get started. I can't do anything about how he sees himself as not responsible for not feeling connected to me, nor how he feels not responsible for my diminished support and trust.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2433921 10/11/10 02:07 PM
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Quote
THIS is how you 'feel connected', you REACH for it, you OPEN yourself to bids for connection...nobody is going to 'feel connected' if they close off connection over a fit of self-righteousness

That's right. And YOU did it, cwmi. You made that moment of connection, by asking for it gently and sweetly.

I'm not surprised he eventually felt comfortable talking with you.

You made it safe and pleasant for him so you could both move into harder topics.



Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2434042 10/11/10 06:52 PM
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Hi CWWI,

Kudos for asking him what he meant by teamwork. Some of the biggest arguments that I've had with my husband are because of misunderstandings about what words mean. When I say "I'm thinking about cleaning out the garage this weekend", that means I'll most likely do it unless something big comes up. Otherwise I wouldn't mention it.

To dh thinking about it means just that, thinking. It will rarely get to the point of action. However, lots of times when he does things he doesn't talk about it first. Action man --- gotta love it!


Happy2CU #2434064 10/11/10 08:34 PM
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CWMI:

What if your husband was right?

What if your husband DID have assurances that there would be no travel, or Non-spouses times? He didn't get it in writing, but he seems to have gotten some assurances.

Then his old employer shows up after being told that "the new job doesn't have travel or "Non-spouse" time. Evidence that you were not the only one he told that the new job was different.

How about your husband is so good at what he does, that even after four months, he has favorably impressed his new employer that he is moving UP in the organization and more travel and events are required?

Can you not see that he may be in the right here?

He tried to get new job that didn't require these things, and seems to have succeeded. And then things changed.

I understand that you feel whip-sawed, or that you didn't marry a JOB. My BW always felt that I liked my job more than my home life. I certainly thought that work was better. I got approval, admiration, and happy thoughts from work. I got disapproval, and disagreement at home.

My BW just wanted me to treat her and my family with more concern, and care, That meant that I described accruately my schedule for the week with her, so that she knew when I planned to work late, or had to be out of the office, and that I would call and let her know that I was leaving the office, or the plans had changed if something came up. That my concern was WITH HER, and considered HER first before I agreed to take a trip, or work late, or didn't come home on time.

This seems to be at the root of your issues. He agrees to do things at the office or for the office, then comes home and informs you of the decision.

And your evening last night seems so much farther than this:

Originally Posted by CWMI
I responded, somewhat snarkily, "I know you'll keep your promise this time."

So your going in the right direction. He may not be the perfect husband, but he can certainly be trained. It won't happen over night. When you changed your approach, his manner changed. ANd that seemed to work. The "connection" occurred. And that doesn't mean that it is always going to "connect" but you can build on that.

(((CWMI)))

LG

lousygolfer #2434096 10/11/10 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lousygolfer
He may not be the perfect husband, but he can certainly be trained. It won't happen over night.
LG

This really struck me. And maybe it's just me. But the way this is worded sounds absolutely horrible.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

kilted_thrower #2434110 10/11/10 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Originally Posted by lousygolfer
He may not be the perfect husband, but he can certainly be trained. It won't happen over night.
LG

This really struck me. And maybe it's just me. But the way this is worded sounds absolutely horrible.

Unless, like me, you are one of those husbands who sincerely hopes to prove trainable. smile

I think it was supposed to be a humorous way of saying that being a good husband is learned behavior. That's a fundamental revelation for many folks.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2434182 10/12/10 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by markos
This really struck me. And maybe it's just me. But the way this is worded sounds absolutely horrible.

Unless, like me, you are one of those husbands who sincerely hopes to prove trainable. smile

I think it was supposed to be a humorous way of saying that being a good husband is learned behavior. That's a fundamental revelation for many folks.
[/quote]
I suppose it's semantics. But saying a husband can bbe trained reminds me of how we talk about animals, and to some extent, children. I completely realize that becoming a good spouse takes some rewiring of selfish behaviors. And this goes for husbands and wives.






Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

kilted_thrower #2434187 10/12/10 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
I suppose it's semantics. But saying a husband can bbe trained reminds me of how we talk about animals, and to some extent, children.

That's how I read it too. I can imagine the exploding heads if we said anything about training women to be good wives!

I'd rather learn or be taught to be a good husband, thank you!


Me - 44
DW - 39
Married 16 years
DS10
DS6
DD4
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