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holdingontoit #2442372 11/11/10 01:59 PM
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Nobody else from his dealership went, hold. It was basically a 'how to not be an a-hole seminar', so may be they did pick him special, lol. Have you read Fred?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2442376 11/11/10 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by writer1
Actually, the sarcasm is perhaps one of your biggest enemies. I don't think it's so much WHAT you are asking of your H, but HOW you are asking it. You come across as very negative, attacking, and defensive here. If you are approaching the issue with your H in the same manner, then that may be half of your problem right there.

Sarcasm is a device to make a point.

CWMI, trust me, sarcasm is a painful disrespectful judgment. There are other more pleasing ways to make whatever points you want to make. I hope I learn them and make them into habits some day in the near future.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2442379 11/11/10 02:14 PM
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Markos, I have tried plain English. I have tried logic. I have tried 'feeling' statements. I have tried SH.

I'm out of try.

I tend to be a bit more abrupt with people here who have missed pertinent information when doling out advice, I know this, I get sick of being made out to be the bad guy here when I'm not the one being deceptive or uncaring.

I care very much that my H finds his life fulfilling. I don't want some rote guy who lives at my whim, and I don't want to be that girl who lives at his. MB has, imho, the BEST program for bringing out the best in both spouses without any of it being at the expense of the other. That's all I want.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2442382 11/11/10 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Markos, I have tried plain English. I have tried logic. I have tried 'feeling' statements. I have tried SH.

I'm out of try.

I know that feeling, CWMI, and I'm just here to tell you it still doesn't justify any abusive behaviors, including disrespectful judgments.

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I tend to be a bit more abrupt with people here who have missed pertinent information when doling out advice,

Well, I know that feeling, too. smile And it is technically true that the person you need to spare from all DJs is your husband. But practicing with other people helps. And when you start to view DJs as abuse you start asking yourself when it is ever okay to use them on anyone. (I don't know the answer to that question. Prisca has a saying on that topic that I find delightful: "But some folks in life are just crying out for disrespectful judgment!")

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I know this, I get sick of being made out to be the bad guy here when I'm not the one being deceptive or uncaring.

I don't think you are the bad guy at all. I think it is just about as straightforward as you are describing it: you thought you had an agreement with your husband, and it doesn't seem to be working out like you expected. I believe you (and he) should get what you want out of your marriage.

I think that just like from the beginning you will always be getting some advice here that does not line up with the Marriage Builders concepts. So keep them in mind always as you scrutinize everything.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2442386 11/11/10 02:45 PM
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CWMI, I'm sorry I didn't read every one of the 200+ posts on your thread before offering advice. It gets a little overwhelming to log in and see hundreds of new posts on various threads from the last time I logged in yesterday. I have a very active 2-year-old and a lot going on in my own life, so it just isn't possible for me (or probably most others) to spend hours on the site everyday reading every single post. But if you are only looking for advice from those who can, then I will stay off your thread.

I don't think I offered any advice that wasn't inline with MB principles. I certainly didn't do so intentionally.

I wish you all the luck in the world and I truly hope things work out for you. Just remember, you can't control someone else's actions. The only person you can control is yourself. You can control how you respond to your H's actions, but you cannot control him.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
markos #2442391 11/11/10 02:51 PM
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The trouble is, even the best decisions reached by POJA will sometimes crumble.

And then it is time to renegotiate... If it is not possible to POJA a new arrangement successfully, then it's time to consider whether or not you can sustain the marriage.

Fwiw, I still believe that your husband may have actually thought this job would not require travel, and that spouses would be welcome. Didn't you even say you had an e-mail where his new boss said one thing and later did another?

Further, didn't you say your husband had received a promotion, and this is why he is traveling?

I say all this, not to ask you to change anything... but because I hope that no matter what happens, you can see that your husband may not have been lying to you. I guess it falls along the lines of "thinking the best" about him.

Ultimately, you guys may not be able to work this out. You may not be able to reach a new agreement that you both can be enthusiastic about, and it may lead to Plan B or even Plan D.

If that happens, I would be sad for both of you.

In the past, I have suggested that you consider getting help so that being "left alone" is not so devastating for you... In that way, perhaps you would feel that travel once of twice a year is not worth ending a marriage over. You did not like that advice.

I wonder if there is any way for you guys to come up with any sort of agreement that doesn't mean him either changing jobs again, or refusing this promotion, or entirely ending travel, if that isn't something HE wants to do.

You don't want him to travel.
He doesn't want to give up travel.
You want him to do anything (including changing careers, avoiding promotions, etc) in order to avoid travel.
He doesn't want to change a career in which he is successful.

You don't know what is going into his feelings about all of this. Perhaps he is afraid he won't be able to make the same kind of money doing something else. I know that this doesn't matter to you, but it DOES matter to him.

Perhaps he is sincerely convinced that other positions involve travel.

You might be interested to know that there IS travel requirements for upper management at McDonald's corporation. And your husband simply doesn't strike me as the kind of man who would be able to remain at a low level. He is an upward-mobile kind of guy, and that would follow him wherever he went. He is successful.

I don't know, cwmi.

This may really be beyond the capabilities of this board. What kind of timeline do you have for reconnecting with the Harley's?


Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
writer1 #2442397 11/11/10 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by writer1
I don't think I offered any advice that wasn't inline with MB principles.

For the record, I don't have anyone specific in mind in my remark above on this subject. All of the posts on this thread are very much a blur to me and I don't remember who said what.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Telly #2442401 11/11/10 03:15 PM
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Upper Mickey management, yes. I used to work for a chain I'll call crapplebees, lol. I was offered a position with them after a year employment that would require travel. Most of it would be revamping their training program and working with a crew that I already was helping in the corporate office...but I was a bartender. I turned it down. I was 22. I didn't want the disjointed life then, I don't want the disjointed life now.

He was not given a promotion, he has simply moved up the product line in the same position.

Quote
In the past, I have suggested that you consider getting help so that being "left alone" is not so devastating for you... In that way, perhaps you would feel that travel once of twice a year is not worth ending a marriage over. You did not like that advice.

Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Telly #2442407 11/11/10 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Telly
The trouble is, even the best decisions reached by POJA will sometimes crumble.

Especially those reached without RH. Those are doomed from the start. Agree?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2442410 11/11/10 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by Telly
The trouble is, even the best decisions reached by POJA will sometimes crumble.

Especially those reached without RH. Those are doomed from the start. Agree?

Yes, those crumble, too, but those are not the best decisions Telly was speaking of. Those are some of the lousy decisions.

Even decisions made with enthusiasm and honesty are made by people who may feel different later. I asked Dr. Harley about this recently, and he said:

Quote
Markos:

The POJA provides an interesting solution to the problem of unfulfilled agreements: It encourages spouses to let each other off the hook when one spouse wants to bail at the last minute. "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse" focuses on the doing, not the planning. The reason, of course, is that if you care about each other, you should not gain at your spouse's expense. At the time of the original agreement, it may have seemed as if both spouses would gain, but as the even draws closer one spouse may see a problem. When that happens, the agreement should be scrapped and a new agreement, with the problem acknowledged, should be negotiated.

The point of the POJA is that everything you do should benefit both of you. And if you can't think of a way for that to happen, you should do nothing until a solution is found.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Here's the link, for anyone who can get there:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160882&Number=2439993#Post2439993


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2442411 11/11/10 03:54 PM
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Do nothing. So it is reasonable in MB parlance for my H to not travel if it does not meet my enthusiastic agreement, even if I previously agreed to accompany him?

And that does not make me a controlling witch monster?

Hm...

Interesting.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2442412 11/11/10 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Quote
In the past, I have suggested that you consider getting help so that being "left alone" is not so devastating for you... In that way, perhaps you would feel that travel once of twice a year is not worth ending a marriage over. You did not like that advice.

Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

I don't think you are out of line wanting your husband not to travel without you. That's Dr. Harley's own standard! No nights apart, anyway; I believe he has no problem with day trips apart, so long as all the other conditions for a good marriage are followed, of course, like the POUA, the POJA, and the PORH.

Demands, disrespect, and anger will make it impossible to get this goal achieved long term, of course.

The marriage builders premise is that easier for one of you to change is behavior than for the other to change her emotional response to that behavior. (And vice versa, of course!!!) Now, if you rethink things and it does change an emotional response, that is helpful. But it isn't always easy.

For the record, Prisca hates to be left, too; if she had her way I wouldn't even work outside of our home. (And I'd love that.) She puts up with it only because somebody has to pull in a paycheck, I think. I love that she loves me that much. But I hate that just going to work can be a love bank withdrawal. Mark always says you're going to get stuck with bumps of life like that that make withdrawals no matter what, so you better be making massive deposits every day.

Of course, Prisca and I love to travel. Practically anywhere. She would've loved to tag along with me on a short business trip, even if all she got to do was hole up in a hotel room with all the kids and see me in the afternoons and evenings.

Quote
This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?

Careful. Like MelodyLane always says, don't shoot the rescue helicopters.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
CWMI #2442414 11/11/10 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?

Ouch.

Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general---including your dh?

markos #2442418 11/11/10 04:25 PM
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SH told us that he attended a men's retreat one weekend before our appt, this was following the church group fiasco with GNO. He asked me if I was surprised by that. I said no, that I imagined he had a pretty solid marriage that allowed for that. My H said, "Ah-ha!" SH went on to explain to my H that he would not have gone if his wife had objected to it at all, and that there was a man he knew (it was a church thing) whose marriage was struggling, who was there, and Steve was thinking, man, what are you doing HERE? You should be HOME.

I would not want my H home all the time. I do want him to sleep here. I do not think this is wrong or misguided or controlling.

I'd like some opinions on something else he said last night. He said that it would be easier on him if I got all-out angry when I'm displeased with something he's done. My usual MO of being loving and telling him I love him while telling him what displeases me confuses him and he does not know how to react. He said he thinks I don't love him when I'm complaining, so for me to act as if I do confuses him, and he doesn't know how to react. I told him that I do love him even when I'm unhappy with him. He doesn't understand how that is possible.

He's PD?

He said it is easier for him to feel loving during a disagreement if we do the holding-hands thing during the discussion, but like I said before, it is a long struggle to get him to participate. I know you folks can't diagnose, but this sounds so black-and-white, he doesn't understand how you love someone and still be angry with them? I do not see him being so cut and dried with others, but I rarely ever see him get angry with others, only with me and the kids. It has to be some form of PD to not be able to see how you can be frustrated/angry with someone and still love them.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
SmilingWoman #2442419 11/11/10 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by CWMI
Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?

Ouch.

Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general---including your dh?

SW, Telly has *edit* me up one side and down the other and laid the onus in my lap on numerous occasions. She can answer her own questions.

Last edited by Breezemb; 11/11/10 09:22 PM. Reason: tos/profanity

Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
SmilingWoman #2442422 11/11/10 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by CWMI
Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?

Ouch.

Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general---including your dh?

Seriously, what do you expect me to say? "Oh, you're so right, I've been so foolish to think that my feelings mean anything here, you're so correct that I should change them to suit what my H wants, after all, it is all on me, so I'll change my feelings post-haste and thank you so much for pointing out my error! I'm SOOOO happy now!!!111!!!"

lol.

That would be great if I was a didtz.

eta: or ditz. YSMV. smile

Last edited by CWMI; 11/11/10 04:43 PM.

Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
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CWMI #2442423 11/11/10 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
I would not want my H home all the time. I do want him to sleep here. I do not think this is wrong or misguided or controlling.

Prisca would like me home all the time, and I don't think it's wrong or misguided or controlling. I think it's AWESOME!!!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2442425 11/11/10 05:01 PM
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smile

My H has said that he thinks I want him home all the time, and he thinks that is horrific. What he thinks I want is for him to be under my magnifying glass 24/7. *red flag*

I wish he saw what I want as wanting HIM, not control of him. I already told him it would drive me nutz to not have an hour a day to myself, I'm a creative type and I need the downtime. I don't want him up my rear. I want him to come home with stories I haven't heard. I want his help with our home, and his warmth when I sleep. Oh lawdy, how selfish I am! lol.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
markos #2442427 11/11/10 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
Careful. Like MelodyLane always says, don't shoot the rescue helicopters.

How about the enemy 'copters? Can you shoot them? You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2442436 11/11/10 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by markos
Careful. Like MelodyLane always says, don't shoot the rescue helicopters.

How about the enemy 'copters? Can you shoot them? You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here.

I know I said I wasn't going to do this, but geez! Do you know how many people you have snarked at, disrespected, and been rude to? And that's just today.

I think pretty much everyone here would like you to have a happy M. This is a MARRIAGE BUILDERS site! I personally would love every single person on the planet to be deeply, passionately, and romantically in love with their spouse, you included.

But the only advice you seem to want is for everyone to tell you how to fix your H and get him to do what you want him to do. Guess what? We can't do that! No one can. The only person who can change your H's behavior is him. We can give you some suggestions on how to deal with his behavior, but we cannot tell you how to change him. In the end, he has to want to change, and so far, he doesn't seem to want to do that. So people are giving you advice on how to deal with his reluctance, and you pretty much spit in our faces, because it actually requires YOU to do something.

Tell me, do you really expect anyone on this board to be able to tell you how to change your H? Are you willing to do anything at all to change something about the way YOU are doing things? Because really, it's only possible to help the person who is here, and in your M, right now, that happens to be you.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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