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writer1 #2442438 11/11/10 05:51 PM
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2.

No.

Yes.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2442443 11/11/10 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by markos
Careful. Like MelodyLane always says, don't shoot the rescue helicopters.

How about the enemy 'copters? Can you shoot them? You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here.

Well, to some extent that's true, but I have usually found Telly very helpful. She was the first person here to point out to me how I was LB'ing Prisca. I'd hate to see her shot.

And then there's that thought that no behavior deserves abuse as a response. If disrespectful judgments (including sarcasm) really are abuse, are they ever appropriate anywhere? I still don't know.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
CWMI #2442450 11/11/10 06:38 PM
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I think you may be focusing on a symptom and not the root problem. Your husband seems to see any decision of yours that conflicts with his as an unacceptable level of control. Perhaps he likes traveling because then he gets to act like a man with no ties.

You mentioned that even the good Dr. says that your husband has an aspect of OC about him (chairs must be in a certain place, etc). This seems like more the issue than travel. He has the excuse that "this is for work", so nyah, nyah, nyah, can't beat this.

Maybe rather than focusing on the downstream aspects, travel, see if he is willing to focus on the upstream stuff, fear of control. I can see that you are very frustrated, as many would be.

But if you can't help feeling unhappy about the travel, and you aren't willing to go to Plan B, I think you need to find another way around this mountain. Not giving up, or sacrificing, but consider this as a long-term situation that might not get resolved at this moment.

I think you've made a rod for your own back by insisting that your husband take you on all travel instances. Its expensive, and unpleasant as you learned by this trip to NO. Perhaps you can come up with another solution? What happens if the next time he has to travel you or the kids have big things on at uni or school. This doesn't seem like a viable long-term thing.

I do have sympathy with you on this, as do a lot of people. We are trying to come up with solutions, but ultimately you are the one that has to determine a plan of action that is suitable.




CWMI #2442451 11/11/10 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
How about the enemy 'copters? Can you shoot them? You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here.
I know that you have experienced strong criticism at times on your threads, but I don't think it is fair to say that we are not all on the same team.

I think we are all on MB to help support marriages, yours included. I don't think anyone wants to see your marriage fail.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
markos #2442452 11/11/10 06:40 PM
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I have said this before and I will say this again. I think CWMI and her husband differ on a crucial characteristic. And I am not convinced their marriage can survive this difference.

I think CWMI holds herself to a very high standard. And she is constantly striving to live up to that standard. And she wants to see her husband striving to live up to that same standard.

I think CWMI's husband feels "good enough is good enough". He is content to stop striving once he gets to good enough. He is content if CWMI stops striving when she gets to good enough. And he wishes that CWMI could be happy with him when he gets to good enough.

But she can't be happy with that. And I do not know how to bridge that gap. Because I don't see CWMI's husband becoming enthusiastic about putting in the effort to reach CWMI's standards. From my perspective, I think the only hope for their marriage is for CWMI to go to Plan B. Because I don't think her husband will step up to the challenge otherwise.


When you can see it coming, duck!
holdingontoit #2442454 11/11/10 06:43 PM
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So what is the plan CWMI?


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
holdingontoit #2442537 11/12/10 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I have said this before and I will say this again. I think CWMI and her husband differ on a crucial characteristic. And I am not convinced their marriage can survive this difference.

I think CWMI holds herself to a very high standard. And she is constantly striving to live up to that standard. And she wants to see her husband striving to live up to that same standard.

I think CWMI's husband feels "good enough is good enough". He is content to stop striving once he gets to good enough. He is content if CWMI stops striving when she gets to good enough. And he wishes that CWMI could be happy with him when he gets to good enough.

But she can't be happy with that. And I do not know how to bridge that gap. Because I don't see CWMI's husband becoming enthusiastic about putting in the effort to reach CWMI's standards. From my perspective, I think the only hope for their marriage is for CWMI to go to Plan B. Because I don't think her husband will step up to the challenge otherwise.

That's what I think.

I think it would be grossly unfair if CWMI had to compromise on her standards.

But if she isn't interested in traveling regularly with her husband, and she isn't willing to allow for some travel in their marriage, and (importantly) HER HUSBAND ISN'T WILLING TO STOP...

Than what other option is there?

That's why i keep saying that she may need Dr. H's help again. This seems to be a real standstill, to m.



Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
black_raven #2442538 11/12/10 07:20 AM
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He said that it would be easier on him if I got all-out angry when I'm displeased with something he's done. My usual MO of being loving and telling him I love him while telling him what displeases me confuses him and he does not know how to react. He said he thinks I don't love him when I'm complaining, so for me to act as if I do confuses him, and he doesn't know how to react. I told him that I do love him even when I'm unhappy with him. He doesn't understand how that is possible.

He's PD?

Saying this stuff is working for him, because he is getting what he wants, when he wants it, how he likes it served up. Just like the trip.

You're managing your anxiety, and trying to manage his feelings and reactions. Sounds frustrating! All I can say is, things will continue to get more clear to you. With the exception of the trip, in general, it sounds like things have gotten more peaceful. School's going well, the kids are getting older and easier.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
Telly #2442540 11/12/10 07:25 AM
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PS. Thank you markos!

CWMI, you and I have butted heads in the past. BUt I stick around here, because I really do want you to succeed.

And I think your marriage really raises the question of what do you do when your spouse seems unwilling to respect your non-negotiables.

Me? I tend to give in to some extent. That's probably not healthy, and I agree it's not completely MB.

That doesnt' mean I don't agree with MB or want peopel to fully implement it.

It DOES mean that I would rather be married to my H than not, even if there are one or two things we can't perfectly resolve. I guess that means to date, the things we can't resolve don't make large enough withdrawals from my LB.

In any case, I am trying to think WITH you. I have apologized in the past when I have gotten angry, or been hurtful, or unhelpful.

If the only way you see your marriage succeeding is for your husband not to travel away from you at all, and your husband (for whatever reason HE thinks is important) is unwilling to accomodate that in his decisions, than what options do you have?

I see only plan B or D. Unless you talk to Dr. H and see what he thinks.

Your H knows how you feel. Right now, that doesn't seem to be enough. God knows it would be nice if it were... That all spouses should be more like Markos has become "if it bothers my spouse at all, I won't do it."

Some spouses aren't like that. And then you either compromise, or you get out (at least as far as i see it).

edited to add: I wish someone would swoop in here and say "Cwmi, here's what you do/say to help your husband understand and accomodate your needs." I don't see that happening.

Maybe Dr. H would have better ideas. maybe he would be able to get through to your husband (again?). I don't know.

I sure hope you guys are able to resolve it, and if you don't mind I"ll continue to talk with you about it.

But if me merely posting things that you don't like/want to do is upsetting you (perhaps based on the fact that we have fought in the past), then do you want me to stay off your thread? Is it so unhelpful to you that I see things differently, or might sometimes have advice you won't take that I shouldn't post to you?


Last edited by Telly; 11/12/10 07:31 AM.

Me 42
H 46
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Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2442559 11/12/10 09:53 AM
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CWMI:

Maybe I am in one of those enemy helicopters...

I like what Hold had to say about your standards. How high they are, and maybe, your husband isn't able to "get there"

However, one thing we know now, (at least I just found out..) is that your husband in a used car salesman.

His standards will NEVER be that high, because he gets to swim in the cesspool everyday. And this has continued for thier entire marriage.

It provides the home and a lifestyle that allows CWMI to go to school and do her artist stuff.

Does this make him a BAD PERSON? No, it just makes him a Used Car Salesguy. Who happens to be very good at what he does, such that his former employer comes looking for him after the fact, and the new employer has moved him thru the ranks fairly quickly.

If it is a fairly large dealership, then the dealership has ALL sorts of incentives that are funded by the manufacturers, and the dealership, when goals are met or exceeded. And some of those goals may be travel related. It might mean you go to a new model release, or finanacing deal workshop, or something, that NOT all the salespeople can go to.

Its that admiration thing. Sales guys (and gals) if they are any good, are motivated by the goals that are set by thier employers... Trips, dollars, salesperson of the month, etc.

He gets a HUGE amount of admiration for what he does at his job. He doesn't get much at home. So he works. And works. And looks for reasons to escape.

So, CWMI, you have decided that travel is your hill to die on. However, you do not climb to the top of that hill and start fighting. And maybe dying. Which would be the end of your marriage, because its a hill that you just not going to be able to win.

As far as I am concerned, a guy who leaves a good job at an auto dealership in this enviornment, and goes to another, in the hope that maybe he won't travel, after being promised at the interview time that he won't be, has sacrified ALOT. He has put in danger MANY THINGS. The new job may not have been what it was represented, and sales may not have been as promised, nor the goals as attainable, and there is no going back (at least in the beginning). This put the entire family at risk.

Its a hill to charge up, but your NOT GOING TO.

So you have to decide to accept, adjust, or stew.

Accept that he is going to have travel, and try to make it as palatable as possible. Meaning taking the family and going with him. Arranging sitters, or whatever to make it happen, so that he isn't "Alone" in these other places and looking for OW.

Adjust. He is going to travel. Becasue he is good at what he does, and in sales, that is what happens eventually.

Stew. Decide that the anger and resentment that is building up in you is yours to deal with. HE IS GOING TO DO THIS. So, you stew, or change it. Which apears to be Divorce.

That is why I propose that HE talks to SH. And works thru how to meet you halfway on this in a manner that makes sense to him. He feels maniupulated when you talk to SH, and then he talks to H. So, it is his turn to talk with SH a nember of times, and to learn MB in a way that his salesguy brain can deal with.

Then maybe, he learns how to get you into the right place in line, in first place, and to make sure that you are in the loop. So that when something comes up, you are told. And you accept that you have been told, and your voice is heard. You don't immediately "SAY NO!" to everything. You listen to him, because you are involved earlier in the process. SH can teach him more about this. You can't, I can't. But SH may be able to, if your H feels that it isn't coming from CWMI.

Just my .02

I feel for you CWMI. I really do, its a tough place to be.

LG

lousygolfer #2442580 11/12/10 11:28 AM
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Sarcasm is immature, (about a 12-14 year olds forte)
not a good way for grown up people to communicate.
Let me guess, you call names too?
...but only ones you feel justified using.

You are the alpha in your family. It takes a lot of nards to do this. You should be respected for leading.
but.
but

This marriage formula, for whatever reason, is not working anymore.
It will mean the death of your union if you do not change this dynamic.
MB is about love bank and meeting needs. It is so simple, but in practice it is hard to do, at first at least.

Check my sig, if you request, I can send you some information about overcoming control issues, for the alpha, it is hard to read.
But if you are going to justify your sarcasm, general nastyness and name calling (I would hate to be called the names you throw out at your H on a daily basis) there is really no point, because that s one of the the first steps alphas must accept NOT to do in this material.


Me; W 46
Him; H 46

2 girls
DD19
DD16
Dated/Married total 28 years.
..I am learning and working on myself.
barbiecat #2442582 11/12/10 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by barbiecat
Let me guess, you call names too?

Isn't this sarcasm, too?

I think sarcasm is wonderful and delightful so many times, but for a married person it is really a nasty habit to be in.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2442586 11/12/10 12:03 PM
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CWMI,

I love sarcasm...my H and I employed it on each other on a regular basis. My friends and I still do. It is the way I talk. I didn't really realize it's damage until my sweet, sensitive DD pointed it out to me. I began to realize how much I hated being around my H...how awful I felt...how nasty we were to each other. I would find teachers using it in the school I work and imagine my daughter in that class.

It was awful and hearbreaking.

I had an affair..

After it was over and exposed the most amazing discussion was with our friends...they weren't that surprised...not because I am an awful slut...but because we were so mean to each to each other...they began telling us we made them uncomfortable to be around each other...my friends, his friends, my family...

it was enlightening.

I am now biting my tongue a lot and it is getting easier

I like your straighforwardness and I can tell you totally love your husband. It is clearly evident....to me, but, then again, I'm fluent in sarcasm.

markos #2442599 11/12/10 12:51 PM
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No, my intention was to stress the second part of the sentance, not the first.


Me; W 46
Him; H 46

2 girls
DD19
DD16
Dated/Married total 28 years.
..I am learning and working on myself.
markos #2442628 11/12/10 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by barbiecat
Let me guess, you call names too?

Isn't this sarcasm, too?

I think sarcasm is wonderful and delightful so many times, but for a married person it is really a nasty habit to be in.

I didn't read sarcasm in barbie's post.....

Many of CWMI's posts are full of sarcasm and general nastiness. What someone pointed out as her holding herself to a high standard....to me only comes off as arrogant and dismissive. A high standard is relative. What is important to her is not necessarily important to her dh.

CWMI #2442635 11/12/10 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by CWMI
Perhaps it is not clear to you that this is sacrifice. If I knew at 22 that traveling for business was not something I wanted in my life, why do you think I should accommodate that at 40? If I did not want to go MYSELF, why would I be okay with my spouse going?

This isn't rocket science. This isn't some big secret, or conspiracy to make my H feel bad and ruin his life. I have a long-term ingrained objection to it, for myself and anyone I share my life with. Why are you insisting that I am wrong in my own self-assessment? I already said, I'm fine with being alone. I'm not fine with being alone AND in a relationship. What is so hard for you to figure out about that?

Ouch.

Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general---including your dh?

Seriously, what do you expect me to say? "Oh, you're so right, I've been so foolish to think that my feelings mean anything here, you're so correct that I should change them to suit what my H wants, after all, it is all on me, so I'll change my feelings post-haste and thank you so much for pointing out my error! I'm SOOOO happy now!!!111!!!"

lol.

That would be great if I was a didtz.

eta: or ditz. YSMV. smile

See- you did it again. You replied to me in an insultingly dismissive manner. The thing is, *I* don't care. I'm not married to you, nor are you my sister, or my neighbor, or my friend, or my in law....or anyone that I EVER have to deal with.

My question was directed to you btw--I wasn't attempting to answer your question to Telly (the substance of which has nothing to do with my point). My question is 'Is it possible you have a problem with the way you speak to people in general--including your dh?' I said nothing to you about your feelings not 'meaning anything.' I was trying to kindly point out that you are harsh. Ugly talking. Arrogant.

People don't like those qualities.


When I first came here in 07, LA tried to get me to see this about myself. I was so wrapped up in my self-righteous holier than thou mentality that I would not bend....until one day she said, 'I give up.' to me. I was crushed. I suddenly saw myself as others must see me.

The thing is, my now XH turned out to be a WH and he wasn't worth keeping. Maybe that is how your situation will turn out to be. However, your general tone toward all of us is yours to own. I would want to address that if I were in your shoes regardless of whether the marriage makes it or not.

YMMV

SmilingWoman #2442682 11/12/10 04:32 PM
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****edit****

Last edited by Dufresne; 11/12/10 07:00 PM. Reason: Personal Attack
Bubbles4U #2442855 11/13/10 10:54 AM
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I think the whole point here has been lost in a sea of personal attacks on my communication style. I am extremely frustrated, there is no doubt about that. I don't believe it is my communication style that is the problem in my marriage.

For instance, I asked him about that harsh thing he said the other night, when he said he would continue to do things that appear he is not considering me, but he doesn't take me for granted. To me, those two things don't even make sense together. I found out why. He said that 'considering' someone means to appreciate them. I had to show him the dictionary to convince him that that is not what it means. Considerate: mindful of the needs, wishes, and feelings of others. Considering: taking something into account (mainly the needs, wishes and feelings of others, lol). It is a maddening way to communicate.

Last night, he came home and said his truck was acting up and he was going to take it to the shop this morning, if he could make it, the truck was acting like it was going to stall out. So he left this morning and I told him to just call me if he didn't make it. He didn't call, so I phoned him and said, "I suppose you made it okay, then?"

He said, "Nope! The truck is at the shop now."

I said, "Oh no, did you have to get towed in?"

He said, "No, I made it there."

WHAT??? Didn't I just ask you that? Didn't you just answer no? Maddening! Is there anything that can be done about an unclear communicator? How can I tell him that the way he miscommunicates is a problem without him feeling attacked? I think he knows this, but he doesn't see it. It's been a problem for a long time.

TELLY: of course you can talk to me.

LG: I don't know if this makes any difference in your "cesspool" perception, but my H sells extremely high-end cars, most of them cost more than our house. He does sell some used ones, consignment mostly. Still cost more than our house, lol.

His communication style probably does have a lot to do with his business.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2442908 11/13/10 03:41 PM
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I don't know, CWMI. Depending on the prominant side of the brain, people communicate differently. He seems to come from a connotative side and you're a denotative style. So he means what he says but it might not be the actual dictionary literal translation.

We get a lot of this with our foreign exchange students when they don't understand slang or casual/conversational English. I typically deal with 7-9 different nationalities other than Americans every year on the soccer team. So communication is pretty big and can take some creativity, patience, and humor in dealing with this situation.

My wife and I are completely differnt temperaments, personalities, and conversational/explaining styles. We have had to learn to repeat and reitterate what we thought the other one said...often what I or she said is not is how it is perceived.

I think when you're operating in a corporation or in an environment like I work in...everyone needs to be on teh same page as far as terminology goes. But I don't think it necessarily has to be that way in relationships. I don't think you have to lead someone to a dictionary to demonstrate that your meaning is more right than the other persons because that's not going to fix anything except possibly make the other person feel belittled. Just so you know, since I have an English degree, I'm very much a literal meaning of the word kind of person...my wife is more of a "you know what I meant" kind of person.

I do think that perhaps in situation like the above if you have an idea of where he is coming from and the meaning of certain words might be different, clarification will go a long way.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

kilted_thrower #2442910 11/13/10 04:06 PM
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CW:

This line:
Originally Posted by CWMI
WHAT??? Didn't I just ask you that? Didn't you just answer no? Maddening! Is there anything that can be done about an unclear communicator? How can I tell him that the way he miscommunicates is a problem without him feeling attacked? I think he knows this, but he doesn't see it. It's been a problem for a long time.

So what.

He didn't say it exactly like you wanted. Did you get what you needed to know? That he made it to the shop?

Yes you did. Leave the rest.

Really.

If you think he is pathological, and trying to keep you confused all the time, then that is a different problem.

I mean, I get the the convo was a little wierd, but, did you find out what you needed to know?

And if he gets angry when you ask for clarification, then that is on him. You shouldn't respond with snark back at him, but be calm, (like it sounds you did here...) and then maybe your interactions will get a little calmer.

So he sells High End cars? I would expect serious travel on his part, if he is in any way any good at his job. The high end manufacturers want thier dealers to have exceptional knowledge about the cars they are selling. Even if the buyers have no more ability to process this info than: "Well, this IS the more expensive model than the Jones'"

LG

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