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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
I agree that you're impatient. Things are going well and because of 1 night now you're up in arms about how to handle this or that.

It would have been better if instead of 'wheeling and dealing' by "If I put the kids down..." How about just be nice realizing she's tired. "Honey, go relax in the bath while I get the kids in bed. I know you've had a long day and you're tired."

If you're expecting SF every day you're going to be disappointed. That is unreasonable. So you had SF the night before, do the bath thing/kids down and let her get some rested sleep, then try and set up for some quality SF tomorrow or hte next day.

Geez I need to figure out how to communicate with you all more effectively. Read previous post about how things went down last night. I did put the kids down and I almost always put the kids down. I know it might be common for the wife do handle the kids and the husband to sit on the couch with a beer in one hand and the tv remote in the other, not this one, ok? I'm extremely hands on, very involved in my kids life, etc.

I'm not expecting SF every day, you are coming to that conclusion on your own.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Hill, you said that she started with the "It's not my fault" stuff...did she actually say, "It's not my fault!" or is that something you inferred?

As far as the things about being tired because 1. stayed up too late the night before and 2. the kids have worn her out, those aren't blaming and they're not even excuses...they are EXPLANATIONS.

Is she 'allowed' to explain why she feels a certain way without you getting angry?

Yes that is exactly what she said. The phrases most typically are pointed at me and start with the following, "Well if you had(hadn't) blah, blah, blah, then..............."


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Geez I need to figure out how to communicate with you all more effectively.

Hilltopper, I have been right where you are. I can promise you that you don't need to invest any effort in communicating more effectively with us.

A very, very kind soul here took me aside, REPEATEDLY, and patiently explained to me, over and over again, that I was the source of many of the difficulties in my marriage.

It took awhile for the message to take. In the meantime, devastation occurred.

I think you need to invest more effort in listening and in trying to see how we are right, rather than more effort in trying to communicate to us to prove yourself right.

I've been right. I am extremely dangerous when I am right. I am also very unhappy when I am right.

I have discovered that I would rather be wrong and happy.

Please go back and read the completely practical suggestions you have been given, especially the one from MelodyLane which you did not even acknowledge in your reply to her.

The solution is here, and it does not involve you explaining your conflict with your wife to us in minute detail. Stop giving us more information. We have enough. We know what you need to do differently. Are you ready?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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I don't think either one of you should be saying if you do A, B, C I'll meet your needs only then. The assumption is that both of you will meet the ENs and no LBsw. And you will get your UA time in. These are not supposed to be hoops we jump through. We do things because we want our spouse to feel loved and not what we can get out of it.


Now if you two could stop being angry at each other and follow the worksheets.


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HT, read BOTH OF THESE;

Good Things Come to Those Who Wait: The Power and Pleasure of Delayed Gratification

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One of the things everyone wants most in life is to feel, period. Not simply to feel good, but to just to feel, and feel deeply. This is why while women have a reputation for creating drama, I know guys who do it too�by say cheating on a girlfriend they really love�to subconsciously create a situation of great angst. Because paradoxically, even though angst is a �negative� emotion, it�s pleasurable on some level to simply feel something�anything�so intensely.

But there are healthier ways of feeling more deeply than creating drama for yourself, such as purposefully cultivating hunger (and I mean hunger here in a much broader sense than the appetite for food).

We often think of hunger as �bad� and satiation as �good.� But each state is part of the spectrum of human experience and each has value; every man needs to intensely feel both of them to understand himself and the world.

If you want to experience the fullness of life, you have to be content to feel both satiation and hunger; if you�re always stuffed from having gorged on life�s pleasures, you�ll miss out on a whole other dimension of the human experience.

You keep pushing for instant gratification, and it is driving both you and your wife nuts.

Why? Why do that to yourself, when the reward for the work and patience required to do this right will be much greater?

Building Your Resilinecy: Part VI-Quit Catastrophizing

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Catastrophizing essentially involves imagining and dwelling on the worst possible outcome of something. It�s basically overreacting and letting your thoughts run away to dire and highly unlikely scenarios. It�s the kind of thing that happens when you�re lying awake at three in the morning worried sick about the future and what�s going to happen to you.

Catastrophic thinking proceeds like a chain. One �what if� leads to another until you�re picturing yourself homeless on the street.

Catastrophizing can take two forms. It can spring from an actual event, like taking law school finals. Or it can simply be the product of gazing into the future and imagining one�s life taking a terrible turn.

YOU are doing this. You have ONE NIGHT where your wife is wore out, and you throw your hands up and whine; "It's going right back to where we were before!"

It's ONE DAY, hill. MB isn't a magic pill. It's not some infomercial secret to getting rich quick.

It's a systematic change of thinking and acting to help to rebuild and improve your marriage.

Everyone LOVES to toss around the cliche' that "a good marriage takes work," but some people just don't do the dang work.

Quit whining, suck it up, AND DO THE WORK.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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HHH well said ... err .. posted. lol

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I can appreciate you addressing my impatience and I respect that, will heed your advice and work on it starting now. What I don't respect is me coming here and explaining a massive Lovebuster that my wife does and you hardly acknowledge it. CWMI seems to think her compulsive blaming is really just a her form of explaining things. The rest of you didn't bring it up at all as if it doesn't even matter. I've said this before MB works when two people are on board, accept responsibility for not meeting EN's and LB's, then change their behavior accordingly. When my wife told me my faces bothered her I didn't tell her that was her fault for me having made the face. It was my fault, I acknowledged it, it bothered her so I stopped doing it. So when I told her that her blaming was a huge LB, then she blames me for having caused her to lay blame in the first place, not only is it illogical but it made me feel this is an impossible position for me to be in. I've said it before, how do I compete with that?

So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me? Affection got shut off like a faucet immediately following three fantastic nights including one with SF. With the experiences I've had in this marriage how can I not be concerned? There were no LB's all day, I was patient, I asked her about the bath, got her sleepy tea instead, it was all there. I can appreciate being tired and not wanting to take a bath or have SF, etc. This was very different. This was, I'm(wife) too tired, I'm(wife) gonna sit over here by myself today. I'm(wife) also gonna be very sarcastic which I normally don't do. So in my shoes it was, well where did the affection go and who is this person sitting across the room from me? This is the same person that that I felt neglected and unimportant to which brought me to MB in the first place. Does that make sense? So no, I'm not a mind-reader I didn't attribute it to her just being tired and it concerned me very much, that is all there is to it.

Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage. I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.


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Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?

Actually no not at all, but you were all smacking me upside the head so I figured it was ok for me to do it back a little bit. I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it, I thought it was pretty surprising to be honest. The only person that addressed it directly was actually my wife about 15 mins ago! smile


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Put it on the LB sheet that when she says "It's not my fault because..." it's an annoying habit. On the ENQ, you can write the solution under meeting your need for conversation in 'how it can be better satisfied': discuss things without assigning fault.

Look, I know how hard it is to have conversations when there's different communication styles. My H and I had a breakthrough the other day--he thinks I don't listen and that's why I misunderstand what he says. I think he's not clear. We had a very specific conversation and later he mentioned something about who we'd talked about, and I said, "Oh, the guy who xyz?" and he got flustered and said no, that was somebody else, I never listen, etc...but here's the thing I noticed. When we'd had the first conversation, it began by him telling me about this client he met late in the day, some trivial facts, and then he says, "So then this guy goes to show me..etc" and I thought we were talking about the same guy. He smoothed right into it. Glad I noticed it, so I could tell him that his transitions weren't clear enough for my literal head. We're talking about a guy, he refers to 'this guy', my head puts it on the last person referred. What he meant was "This OTHER guy".

These are the little nit-picky nuances of marital conversation that only need to be discovered and dealt with, not fussed over and fought about. If I can say, "Hey, are we talking about the same thing, or have you changed subjects?" you can say, "Hey, you said 'fault' again, I don't care about fault, I care about you. Just tell me what you want to say without all the fault stuff, okay?"


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?

Actually no not at all, but you were all smacking me upside the head so I figured it was ok for me to do it back a little bit.

Mature.

Do you want help or not?

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I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it,
Not true. Did you actually read the responses?


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I can appreciate you addressing my impatience and I respect that, will heed your advice and work on it starting now. What I don't respect is me coming here and explaining a massive Lovebuster that my wife does and you hardly acknowledge it. CWMI seems to think her compulsive blaming is really just a her form of explaining things. The rest of you didn't bring it up at all as if it doesn't even matter. I've said this before MB works when two people are on board, accept responsibility for not meeting EN's and LB's, then change their behavior accordingly. When my wife told me my faces bothered her I didn't tell her that was her fault for me having made the face. It was my fault, I acknowledged it, it bothered her so I stopped doing it. So when I told her that her blaming was a huge LB, then she blames me for having caused her to lay blame in the first place, not only is it illogical but it made me feel this is an impossible position for me to be in. I've said it before, how do I compete with that?

So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me? Affection got shut off like a faucet immediately following three fantastic nights including one with SF. With the experiences I've had in this marriage how can I not be concerned? There were no LB's all day, I was patient, I asked her about the bath, got her sleepy tea instead, it was all there. I can appreciate being tired and not wanting to take a bath or have SF, etc. This was very different. This was, I'm(wife) too tired, I'm(wife) gonna sit over here by myself today. I'm(wife) also gonna be very sarcastic which I normally don't do. So in my shoes it was, well where did the affection go and who is this person sitting across the room from me? This is the same person that that I felt neglected and unimportant to which brought me to MB in the first place. Does that make sense? So no, I'm not a mind-reader I didn't attribute it to her just being tired and it concerned me very much, that is all there is to it.

Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage. I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.

Get over yourself, dude.

Really. I'm not coming from some high-faluting place when I post to you. Not like I have some life of perfection. I had my wife so disinterested in me, that she took up sleeping with another man.

Don't pull this crap like you are some kind of victim, and use it to justify your screw ups, buddy. Ain't gonna work.

Man up, take your lumps, and quit whining about how hard it is.

WE KNOW how hard it is, some of us are still living it.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage.

You've never actually done that, have you? That was a serious suggestion I passed on straight from Dr. Harley, Hill. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist with three decades of experience working with marriages and restoring romantic love, so I think he knows a little bit about what he's talking about.

I wasn't offering it as a commentary on you. I was suggesting you actually open your mouth and say it.

But if you don't want my advice, Hill, that's okay.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it,

On the contrary, Hill, people went and posted to your wife about it.

Meanwhile, we have brought up a lot more than one huge LB which you have committed, and so far I've seen you do precisely nothing about it other than argue with us. frown

This plan doesn't work if you don't follow it.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me?

No, I don't blame you for feeling impatient at all. Now, do you want to follow a plan that can get you what you are impatient to have? Or would you rather continue to tear it all down with your bare hands?

Quote
I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.

All your work will be for naught if you don't do something about the love busters you are committing. You will never be able to fill your account in her love bank fast enough. If you will listen to us instead of debating with us, we can help you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Put it on the LB sheet that when she says "It's not my fault because..." it's an annoying habit. On the ENQ, you can write the solution under meeting your need for conversation in 'how it can be better satisfied': discuss things without assigning fault.

Look, I know how hard it is to have conversations when there's different communication styles. My H and I had a breakthrough the other day--he thinks I don't listen and that's why I misunderstand what he says. I think he's not clear. We had a very specific conversation and later he mentioned something about who we'd talked about, and I said, "Oh, the guy who xyz?" and he got flustered and said no, that was somebody else, I never listen, etc...but here's the thing I noticed. When we'd had the first conversation, it began by him telling me about this client he met late in the day, some trivial facts, and then he says, "So then this guy goes to show me..etc" and I thought we were talking about the same guy. He smoothed right into it. Glad I noticed it, so I could tell him that his transitions weren't clear enough for my literal head. We're talking about a guy, he refers to 'this guy', my head puts it on the last person referred. What he meant was "This OTHER guy".

These are the little nit-picky nuances of marital conversation that only need to be discovered and dealt with, not fussed over and fought about. If I can say, "Hey, are we talking about the same thing, or have you changed subjects?" you can say, "Hey, you said 'fault' again, I don't care about fault, I care about you. Just tell me what you want to say without all the fault stuff, okay?"

Thanks for this anecdote, it is similar to a lot of what we go through. I'll work on my delivery when I want to bring something up with her and I'll tell her to try and hold back the instinctive response of blame. I'm getting hammered for DJ's so maybe all issues should be reserved for the workbook.


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Hill, can I ask you something?

Where do you want to be a year from now?

You and your wife remind me A LOT of Markos and me. When we first got here, we posted post after post that consisted of "He did THAT to me," or "She's doing this!" Whiny, whiny posts full of frustration and hurt.

We were both committed to doing the program, but we were also both in full Taker mode, and way too busy pointing fingers and wanting to nitpick every single conflict.

Eventually, I quit. I thought our marriage was horrible then, but we REALLY went through hell after that.

Now, a year later, we are finally picking up the pieces and starting over by doing things RIGHT. The really, really sad thing is that we could've had a wonderful marriage a year ago.

This program is not about pointing fingers and talking about how horrible your spouse's LB are. This is not a place to vent and get sympathy. This is a place to work on YOU. This is a program that teaches YOU how to show care for your wife, and how to protect her from yourself. This program doesn't help you to rub your spouse's nose in the wrongs she's committed, nor to demand that she right those wrongs -- rather, it helps you show her how to care for you and to protect you.

When you fill out the LB forms, do so with the mindset that you're helping your spouse protect you. Don't wallow in your hurts, or resent your spouse for hurting you. It can be far, far worse. Trust me.

You're in this together. Help each other. You are not each others' enemy. Follow the program, and learn from each how to care for each other. Do so with gentleness, kindness and self control.

Pointing fingers and having pity parties is not going to cut it.

Where do you want to be a year from now? In love? Or starting over?


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A year from now I'd like to have love in my marriage, in fact well before a year. I hate starting over each time more than you know.


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Yes I have thanked my wife for putting up with me.


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I do want help very much so. I read and reread the responses and no I did not see responses and did not see responses aside from CWMI's response about blaming as a LB.


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