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CWMI #2506033 05/06/11 06:43 AM
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I don't mean to dismiss your suggestion, Retread. I just don't think it will work. He will attention-seek no matter what he is doing, and won't care, no matter what. You can't treat NPD.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2506048 05/06/11 07:28 AM
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CWMI, I've been musing for a couple of days on how to ask you something. I can't quite figure out the words. I guess what I want to know is -- are you still wanting to try to keep your side of the street clean? Because there are lots and lots of Disrespectful Judgments coming through, here. As a king of Disrespectful Judgments, myself, I know how hard it is sometimes to be aware of them when we are talking and writing to and about our spouse.

Prisca hit a point last year where she wanted to give up on the Marriage Builders program. One major reason for that was a feeling of lack of progress. We had done all this work and reading and discussion about love busters -- and I was still having them! I was still having angry outbursts! In fact, I was AOing with increasing frequency and intensity using our lack of progress as my excuse. Of course that was no excuse for abusing my wife. The fact that she was still massively DJing me was also no excuse. But it did allow us to blame each other as we watched our marriage descend in flames.

When you have a "reluctant spouse," what brings them on board is the feeling that they are going to GET SOMETHING out of Marriage Builders. And they should get something! They should see the Love Busters diminish and disappear; they should see their needs met with increasing regularity and finesse.

If they see the DJs or the AOs continue without letting up substantially, they may rightly conclude that they were being manipulated and that there is nothing for them to gain out of this program.

Remember the foundation of Respectful Persuasion? Show your spouse what's in it for THEM if they adopt your belief? (i.e., your belief that this program could help your marriage if followed)

I'm pretty sure you know this, but you are constantly DJing your husband, here.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
If you are thinking, "I'm right and you're wrong," watch out! You are just an utterance away from disaster. The Love Buster, disrespectful judgments, will not straighten your spouse out, as you hope. Instead, it will drive your spouse away from you. At first, you will develop emotional distance with your tactics. ... Your spouse's point of view is worth considering.

I can think of some great reasons for you to adopt a policy of no tolerance towards disrespectful judgments from yourself in your marriage:
* It might persuade your husband that this program helps and is worth following.
* Disrespectful judgments are abusive, no matter what abuse your target may have committed.
* It's only fair. You wouldn't like to be subject to DJs. Do unto others?
* Taking DJs out of your vocabulary makes you a better parent. In fact, it makes it easier to relate to people of all ages, no matter what you want to do in life.
* You will never get what you want with DJs. They simply do not work. They make the problem worse. It's like scratching an itch until you've drawn blood and continuing to scratch it instead of putting some kind of ointment on it.
* Even if nothing else ever changes, it will make you a lot happier in life.

It is some work to eliminate DJs. But it is not a sacrifice. It makes you a better you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2506055 05/06/11 07:49 AM
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Markos, you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not. I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing. I believe in MB a lot.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2506084 05/06/11 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Markos, you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not. I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing. I believe in MB a lot.

This is true...MB won't work with someone who has an underlying personality disorder.

wannabophim #2506105 05/06/11 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by wannabophim
Originally Posted by CWMI
Markos, you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not. I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing. I believe in MB a lot.

This is true...MB won't work with someone who has an underlying personality disorder.

Right, where's it say that? smile


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
CWMI #2506106 05/06/11 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
I asked him to take a persoanlity disorder test I found online (one of the non-jokey ones) and it resulted in Very High for narcissism and histrionic, High for OCD. The others were all low, it checks for markers of about ten different PDs.

Could you forward a link? I would love to take that test.


When you can see it coming, duck!
holdingontoit #2506110 05/06/11 09:46 AM
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CWMI-

Just a few things. First, online tests aren't a good indicator of anything. According to online tests, my recovering SA husband likely didn't have addiction issues, and I'm likely BPD (borderline.) As it turns out, my husband really does have addiction issues, and I learned how to behave like a person with BPD without actually having it, thanks to being raised by a parent with BPD.

That said. How about you find a local chapter of NAMI? Does your college have counseling services? How about you ask them for resources on dealing with NPD.

I can give you some about BPD, but not sure they would relate very well.

You also may consider shopping around for some resources for your children. They are going to be affected by your husband. Speaking from experience, I would have much rather dealt with the fall out of a parent with a PD when I was younger, rather than balancing dealing with the PD on top of marriage, work, and raising a family. And, likely, I would have never married my husband.

wannabophim #2506111 05/06/11 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by wannabophim
Originally Posted by CWMI
Markos, you are assuming that I'm talking about a mentally healthy person. I am not. I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing. I believe in MB a lot.

This is true...MB won't work with someone who has an underlying personality disorder.


Dr. Harley says the opposite. He says he has seen no hopeless cases due to "personality disorders." Some may have a more difficult time applying MB, but they are not hopeless. They are born thoughtless, but "they can rise above their personality type and become thoughtful people."

Dr. Harley talked about this on his radio show. You can listen to the segment from January 12, 2007.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

markos #2506113 05/06/11 09:47 AM
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Dr. Harley talks about personality disorders

ETA: Yes, Prisca looked that up for me. smile I didn't realize she was posting it.

Last edited by markos; 05/06/11 09:50 AM. Reason: Giving credit ;)

If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
CWMI #2506114 05/06/11 09:49 AM
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http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Top need is admiration?

Hallmark of NPD (according to the DSM IV); requires excessive admiration.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
CWMI #2506117 05/06/11 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing.

CWMI, do you want help to clean up those DJs?

It is my belief that this is the main reason your marriage is not progressing and that there's still a lot you can do for your marriage on your side by cleaning this up.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
HoldHerHand #2506120 05/06/11 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Top need is admiration?

Hallmark of NPD (according to the DSM IV); requires excessive admiration.

"Excessive" is kind of a judgment call, isn't it?

Aren't there a lot of women who feel like their husbands require excessive sex? And men who feel like their wives need excessive conversation? And formerly wayward spouses who feel like their betrayed spouses need excessive openness and honesty?

Dr. Harley says emotional needs simply aren't rational. When you are dealing with some area where your spouse does not seem to be rational, you are probably dealing with an emotional need.

It helps noone to judge your spouse's needs as excessive.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
holdingontoit #2506128 05/06/11 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by CWMI
I asked him to take a persoanlity disorder test I found online (one of the non-jokey ones) and it resulted in Very High for narcissism and histrionic, High for OCD. The others were all low, it checks for markers of about ten different PDs.

Could you forward a link? I would love to take that test.

This is the one: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv

I took it as well. I ranked moderate in schitzoid, however you spell the paranoia one. I asked H if he wanted to see my results. He said no, like a true narcissist who doesn't care about other people, lol. I think that result reflects me well, I do worry that people are saying bad things about me, and by people I mean my H and by bad things I mean those I overheard personally or were told by others. lol.

I would like for him to care enough to go to a doctor and get a real diagnosis. I realize online tests are not definitive, but when his SELF REPORTED answers match MY OBSERVED experience, I tend to lend them a little more weight.

And remember, Steve Harley suggested that he get evaluated for OCD. I'm not the only one waving the crazy flag here.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2506134 05/06/11 10:14 AM
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"There are no hopeless cases, but there are those where the person has chosen not to follow the program." From the radio show.

Hy H has chosen to see the program as a manipulation tool and discarded it on that basis after six months of working directly with SH. I'm done putting lipstick on a pig. He does not think he should have to consider my feelings, because doing so is manipulating and controlling.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2506135 05/06/11 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
I'm done

I see. frown


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
CWMI #2506146 05/06/11 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Hy H has chosen to see the program as a manipulation tool and discarded it on that basis after six months of working directly with SH. I'm done putting lipstick on a pig. He does not think he should have to consider my feelings, because doing so is manipulating and controlling.

Sounds like you've found a great excuse to continue to DJ your husband.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

markos #2506151 05/06/11 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Top need is admiration?

Hallmark of NPD (according to the DSM IV); requires excessive admiration.

"Excessive" is kind of a judgment call, isn't it?

Aren't there a lot of women who feel like their husbands require excessive sex? And men who feel like their wives need excessive conversation? And formerly wayward spouses who feel like their betrayed spouses need excessive openness and honesty?

Dr. Harley says emotional needs simply aren't rational. When you are dealing with some area where your spouse does not seem to be rational, you are probably dealing with an emotional need.

It helps noone to judge your spouse's needs as excessive.

If it were excessive to everyone involved with a person, it's not much of a judgement call.

This is a medical definition, as well.

Quote
1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

4. Requires excessive admiration

Translation: Excessive in two ways: they want praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better than what others can do. Sincerity is not an issue here; all that matter are frequency and volume.

5. Has a sense of entitlement

Translation: They expect automatic compliance with their wishes or especially favorable treatment, such as thinking that they should always be able to go first and that other people should stop whatever they're doing to do what the narcissists want, and may react with hurt or rage when these expectations are frustrated.

6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends

Translation: Narcissists use other people to get what they want without caring about the cost to the other people.

7. Lacks empathy

Translation: They are unwilling to recognize or sympathize with other people's feelings and needs. They "tune out" when other people want to talk about their own problems.
In clinical terms, empathy is the ability to recognize and interpret other people's emotions. Lack of empathy may take two different directions: (a) accurate interpretation of others' emotions with no concern for others' distress, which is characteristic of psychopaths; and (b) the inability to recognize and accurately interpret other people's emotions, which is the NPD style. This second form of defective empathy may (rarely) go so far as alexithymia, or no words for emotions, and is found with psychosomatic illnesses, i.e., medical conditions in which emotion is experienced somatically rather than psychically. People with personality disorders don't have the normal body-ego identification and regard their bodies only instrumentally, i.e., as tools to use to get what they want, or, in bad states, as torture chambers that inflict on them meaningless suffering. Self-described narcissists who've written to me say that they are aware that their feelings are different from other people's, mostly that they feel less, both in strength and variety (and which the narcissists interpret as evidence of their own superiority); some narcissists report "numbness" and the inability to perceive meaning in other people's emotions.

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him

9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes


Call it a judgment call if you like, but a need for excessive admiration is what is also used to make a clinical diagnosis.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
markos #2506160 05/06/11 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by CWMI
I appreciate your post and wholly agree with not DJing.

CWMI, do you want help to clean up those DJs?

It is my belief that this is the main reason your marriage is not progressing and that there's still a lot you can do for your marriage on your side by cleaning this up.

Sure. I disagree that the failure of progression in my marriage is because I am hurt by what he says to other people, or that I am bothered that he neglected to secure our anniversary weekend, or that I reported he tests to have a VERY HIGH likelihood of being narcissistic. The reason we are not progressing is because he doesn't care if those things bother me.



Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2506214 05/06/11 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Sure. I disagree that the failure of progression in my marriage is because I am hurt by what he says to other people, or that I am bothered that he neglected to secure our anniversary weekend,

CWMI, I said nothing of the sort. You have a right to be bothered.

He also has a right to be bothered by the way you are talking about him.

I can choose the way I respond when I am bothered. I can communicate about it in a respectful way, and I can communicate about it in a disrespectful way.

There's one more thing here you could do to make your marriage better, and you're choosing not to do it. So why are you placing 100% of the blame on him when there are things you BOTH aren't doing?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2506216 05/06/11 12:36 PM
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What one more thing? Separation?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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