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Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
I can feel myself getting angry and resentful. I'm tired, physically, mentally and emotionally. I'm withdrawing and I know it. And I simply don't know how to approach him. If he doesn't want to be married to me, then there's nothing I can say that is going to make a difference in how he treats me...so I guess I feel like, what's the point? After all, I am the one who broke our marriage vows. He has the "get out of jail free" card thanks to me. I still don't know why he came back. On top of him losing his job, I'd heard the stepmom was letting her house go into foreclosure...so did he come back b/c he had nowhere else to go? He pretty much does his own thing. He continues to help with the girls, throws in some DS here and there. Works out every day and went on a diet. Buys and does the things he wants with no interest in POJA. We sleep in the same bed and have SF when he initiates.

Would it be fair to say that the current situation has cause you to be a giver 90% of the time and he's the taker, with little reciprocation? How long's it been since the final dday? It's been a while. While i agree that a betrayed spouse has a get out of jail free card, it is not indefinite. An indefinite get out of jail free card can often become cruel to the other person, stringing them along with no hope. A BS, at some point, needs to poo poo or get off the pot (as my dad says in a much more colorful way).

I guess over the last year I'd built up this whole fantasy in my head, about how he would come home and things would be better, that he'd recommit to the M and would work to meet my ENs like he did before for a few short months. That we'd rekindle the romance, and fall in love again.

As far as my pattern of coping, Tough, I was talking to my brother last night. He wanted me to help him order something online, and when he was thanking me, he made some comment about me having to take care of everybody now (since Dad died). I said, Well, I guess I was raised to take care of everybody. I was the overachiever, I tried to be perfect, and I always thought if I tried harder, if I was better, people would love me more. He laughed and said Now you're taking care of your family and they would love you unconditionally anyway. I said, Not everybody loves unconditionally.

WPG,this sounds like works based salvation... If I do this and do that, I can get people to like me. People will like or dislike you regardless of what you do for them. Those that do are users.

So yes...it's a pattern with me, even pre-A. In fact, all the way back to when we were dating. I thought if I loved H enough, if I was good enough, he'd love me the way I needed to be loved. He'd take down the wall inside him and would open up to me. Unfortunately I expected him to read my mind, and "know" what I needed, and became resentful b/c he wasn't a mindreader. I tried to show love to him by giving him what I needed, b/c I had no idea what his needs were.

Have you ever considered that this might be the thing holding him back? That it may be something he recognizes (even if he cannot put is finger on it directly) that was something that led to the A to begin with? Like an associated behavior, or a contributing/underlying behavior. As a BS, the one thing I looked at were the contributing ideas/thoughts/beliefs/actions that Grace did before the A and during it. Has she changed those things, or was she changing those things? Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting in the slightest that you are not different, but what i'm suggesting is that he may be seeing something he associates with the pre-a or A state of your marriage. It may be forcing him to keep away.

Only now I feel like we do have a better grasp on each others' needs. I know I'm failing at his need for O&H b/c I am not telling him my feelings anymore. I'm afraid to open up. He doesn't meet my top 3 needs of AD, AF, and C, and I don't know how to express that to him b/c I am afraid of what his response will be. And I feel guilty for wanting my needs met b/c I am the FWW, and he's repeatedly told me he wants a D, so why should I think my needs should or will be met?

At some point, you guys are going to have to have a serious talk. A hurting or even a vindictive man can string along a person indefinitely. If he repeatedly states he wants a D, have you asked him when he's going to file?

I'm better about not having expectations in some ways but not others. I don't expect kindness or affection. But I expect the negative. I don't want to trigger his anger, b/c all the hurtful things he has said have been when he was angry. I just feel worn down, with very little fight left in me anymore.

It is not wrong for you as a fww to stand for yourself and say he cannot have AOs or DJ's towards you.

cv


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Ms. Wullfpack,

"At some point, you guys are going to have to have a serious talk. A hurting or even a vindictive man can string along a person indefinitely. If he repeatedly states he wants a D, have you asked him when he's going to file?" - Celtic ...and...

"I know you want to save your marriage, and that is very admirable, however no one deserves abuse (even a WW). If this is how he is treating you and can't figure out anyway to move past it, you are probably better off apart." - nomoreplease

I agree with both of these comments, and I hope you begin to realize that you are much much better than he seems to treat and envision you! That is what I was attempting to advise you in saying that people Do deserve a second, third, and a millionth chance. That is, in the eyes of God. Apparently, a few of the primas here who you seem to hold on to like the road disagree.

Along with the above advice, which I think you should seriously consider, I would like to suggest that you are not the only person on earth today hurting Wullfgal. Without elaborating, it doesn't seem possible now that my wife and I are going to be able to be together anymore. Alot different from your sitch, and we are both alot older than you are, but still painfull nevertheless. Yea, for abit I turned inward, but that does no good. I feel supported that we are still wanting to be together and that she gave me a wonderful 42 years of love so far. There are also so many homeless and needy families in today's economy. Our local parish is running a food pantry just before Thanksgiving, and even tho I dont have that much I can contribute at this time, I will buy some goods to contribute.

As far as your feeling on resentment about being a caretaker of others - well then begin to realize your own ambitions and value - and begin to back away slowly for Your sake. Sometimes some expect us to be selfless. Big difference between being selfless and unselfliss.

I guess you could hang around here for another five years, not make a decision, listen to a few who seem to hold your attention, and continue your story here in 2016. You're better than that from what I have seen. Quite frankly, you're husband doesn't seem worth your effort. Yea allright the affair. Does not give him the right to abuse you, hold you back, and to treat you in an unchristian manner. Is this the man you truely want to get to be age 70 with?? Please listen to the advice that Celtic and nomore gave to you don't get caught up in the b.s. a few others are telling you that you are making progress in saving your marriage...okay.

Prayers and concern for you..

Tom

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ive never posted to you before WPG but have followed your story.

i totally agree with celtic and nomoreplease also.

the one thing i wanted to add is that get out of jail free card expired the second he moved back in with you in my mind that is him committing to trying to work on the marriage, nothing in life is easy as you well know, you are a very strong person look at the growth and change you have made in yourself.

its time to buckle up and take charge and start with an open and honest talk with your husband.

as one of my favorite and wisest things to ever be said there is no try do or do not (yoda)

Last edited by Rouge1; 11/11/11 11:20 PM.

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WPG,

If another poster came on and posted what you've said here there would many people saying that your spouse is in an A. I'm not making an accusation, but this is WW behavior...


Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
He pretty much does his own thing. He continues to help with the girls, throws in some DS here and there. Works out every day and went on a diet. Buys and does the things he wants with no interest in POJA. We sleep in the same bed and have SF when he initiates.

...and he's repeatedly told me he wants a D...

I'm better about not having expectations in some ways but not others. I don't expect kindness or affection. But I expect the negative. I don't want to trigger his anger, b/c all the hurtful things he has said have been when he was angry. I just feel worn down, with very little fight left in me anymore.

Put yourself on the line and talk to you H in a O&H way...what do you really have to loose?


Me...saved by grace
Him...wonderful husband
Us...3 years in to our new life and better every day!
and we have 3 great kids (20,19,17)

Eph. 5:22-33
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Originally Posted by celticvoyager
WPG,this sounds like works based salvation... If I do this and do that, I can get people to like me. People will like or dislike you regardless of what you do for them. Those that do are users.

@celticvoyager: While I typically agree with most of the content of your posts, this one stood out to me as directly contrary to the MarriageBuilders approach. In summary, the approach is that in absence of external factors, you are in control of how other people feel about you, based on how well you meet their needs and avoid behaviors that make them unhappy.

That's why @WPG's story has always struck me as one of those where I think there's far more underneath the surface. Not that I think @WPG needs to play needs-meeting whack-a-mole -- far from it! -- but that a careful analysis might reveal what's really going on. Early on, I'd suspected a possible revenge affair. I'm still 100% certain he's getting intimate emotional needs met some other way, but as @WPG says she's snooped, I'm uncertain whether it's an affair (although I've been out of the loop on the thread a while!). And getting those needs met "some other way" is one of the external factors that can affect how someone feels about you.

For a lot of men, masturbation to pornography can make marriage seem quite uninviting. A wife can meet and meet and meet other needs, but because his top two needs -- physical attractiveness & sexual fulfillment -- are being met elsehwere, she's not as attractive to him as his self-gratification is. It's probably the single most common reason for a disinterested husband, followed closely by affairs.

The big catch here is that @WPG did hurt him the worst possible way. But the way I figure it, either he wants to be married to her or not. There is no middle way that leads to any long-term happiness.


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Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted by celticvoyager
WPG,this sounds like works based salvation... If I do this and do that, I can get people to like me. People will like or dislike you regardless of what you do for them. Those that do are users.

@celticvoyager: While I typically agree with most of the content of your posts, this one stood out to me as directly contrary to the MarriageBuilders approach. In summary, the approach is that in absence of external factors, you are in control of how other people feel about you, based on how well you meet their needs and avoid behaviors that make them unhappy.

That's why @WPG's story has always struck me as one of those where I think there's far more underneath the surface. Not that I think @WPG needs to play needs-meeting whack-a-mole -- far from it! -- but that a careful analysis might reveal what's really going on. Early on, I'd suspected a possible revenge affair. I'm still 100% certain he's getting intimate emotional needs met some other way, but as @WPG says she's snooped, I'm uncertain whether it's an affair (although I've been out of the loop on the thread a while!). And getting those needs met "some other way" is one of the external factors that can affect how someone feels about you.

For a lot of men, masturbation to pornography can make marriage seem quite uninviting. A wife can meet and meet and meet other needs, but because his top two needs -- physical attractiveness & sexual fulfillment -- are being met elsehwere, she's not as attractive to him as his self-gratification is. It's probably the single most common reason for a disinterested husband, followed closely by affairs.

The big catch here is that @WPG did hurt him the worst possible way. But the way I figure it, either he wants to be married to her or not. There is no middle way that leads to any long-term happiness.

Except that he's not conveying his needs to her. She may have a desire to fill those needs, but playing whack a mole might either bring success or disaster. If she whacks the wrong mole... And I guess this is my point. If you don't know what needs need meeting, no matter what you do, you are only pleasing the external... You are not meeting real needs. It's works based.

I see the EN's as more than just externals (though they are often expressed that way). I see them as heart issues... If I withhold emotional needs from someone intentionally (as I think WPG's H has done), my W can never really meet them... It becomes a matter of her working to earn something that no matter what, I would not give her. Some people are just that way. If it wasn't true then it would be 100% success every time.

The truth is, some people will just never like you no matter what you do. It is one of those ugly realities of life.

This is why I suggested that she needs to have a serious sit down with him.

I think it was Grace that suggested the possibility of the A. We both agree with you 100% that needs are being met elsewhere. We just don't have enough info to determine where that is. Could be porn, could be another person. Could simply be that he is royally peeved. Who knows?

CV

CV



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I would also argue that men (and some women) can sputter along for quite some time in a state of marital withdrawal. Considering withdrawal, he would have no interest in meeting her needs, nor in allowing her to meet his needs.

Its WIVES who commonly walk away due to neglect, while husbands busy themselves with other things (which I suppose supports the outside-need-meeting hypothesis, but likely some are just not being met with others being overcompensated).


This does, however, increase the likelihood of infidelity on... Well, both parts.

As WPG already stated, a crippled version of the pre A marriage.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by Tom2010
Ms. Wullfpack,

"At some point, you guys are going to have to have a serious talk. A hurting or even a vindictive man can string along a person indefinitely. If he repeatedly states he wants a D, have you asked him when he's going to file?"

This needs to be said by WPG. A plan B talk. Spelling out that she is willing to recovery but will not be abused. That she wants counseling with the Harley's. Her BH to post on MB.

Then wpg needs to send a follow up plan B letter to her BH with IM contact info. Then go dark.

Last edited by TheRoad; 11/14/11 07:50 AM.
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I suspect if she calls in to Dr. Harley, he will echo @TheRoad's sentiment. The time comes to say that it appears unsalvageable unless your partner comes on-board with meeting your needs. Sometimes a letter helps. Sometimes the man never gets woken up.

I understand @WPG is the original offender here. But at this point, she's spent a year trying to "earn" her way back into hubby's heart to no avail. It's about time to write a nicely-worded, loving letter explaining her needs in order to continue the marriage or any semblance of it. Follow this up with a filing for divorce, and plan to complete the divorce around September of this coming year if hubby doesn't come around.


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But we are not God and we hold grudges and feelings that don't seem to fade. I know I'm a sinner and I should forgive, what makes me human is a feel I can't forgive infidelity.


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�I understand @WPG is the original offender here. But at this point, she's spent a year trying to "earn" her way back into hubby's heart to no avail.�

So maybe it takes two years.

And she isn�t earning anything. According to Dr H she is only doing what she should have been doing all along.

BH is broken. She broke him. He does not know what he wants and he is afraid to commit to anything. He cannot decide. Neither stay nor go. (She even posted this very thing about him a short while ago.) And his children make it nearly impossible to do anything either way. They are probably the most acute pain in his agony.

He has been hurting for so long he has formed thick emotional scar tissue. If this was one of your fellow adulterers there would be many posts about how his wife is still not meeting his ENs the way he wants them met and that is why he is still on the fence.

That being said, I think he may indeed be getting some ENs met elsewhere by now. But probably not SF. Not yet.

I hope it all works out the way it should for him. I really do.

If you haven�t been there you are not qualified to form an opinion.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

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�But we are not God and we hold grudges and feelings that don't seem to fade. I know I'm a sinner and I should forgive, what makes me human is a feel I can't forgive infidelity.�

Interesting thought. I am in and out of this same boat at times. Why do I have to forgive? Let God do it. Every adulterer on the planet just has to form some quick unfocussed thought of sorry on their deathbed and God will forgive them without consequence. So why should I, a mere human, forgive them? In comparison, my forgiveness means absolutely nothing to any of them.

So maybe on my deathbed I mumble something about sorry I can�t forgive adultery and I face no more lingering consequences of adultery either. Will that work too? Or is being unable to forgive adultery worse than adultery and in some way not forgivable?

OTOH, I don�t want any kind of payment from the adulterers either. I cancel all debt. They owe me nothing. I want nothing from them. Is that enough?


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

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Originally Posted by Aphelion
If you haven�t been there you are not qualified to form an opinion.


I cannot disagree more strongly with this statement. It's entirely possible for someone to have a full and logical understanding of and a strong opinion on an issue without having experienced it themselves first-hand. And it's very likely their emotional distance from the experience allows them to form such an opinion without bias, and thus likely their opinion is closer to reality.

A successful marriage requires this kind of empathy, even a betrayed spouse for an unfaithful spouse and vice-versa. Repairing a marriage broken by infidelity requires time to heal, but not endless suffering on the part of the offender. A separation is often the only way to spark the repair when one spouse is apathetic over a great deal of time. And divorce may often be the only just compensation the unfaithful spouse can offer for his or her offense.

But Aphelion, we've had this same argument before and I really don't want to get into it again. I know you've been hurt, and because your recovery was unsuccessful you're going to have that hurt for a very long time. Don't discount the thoughtful opinions of those who are currently succeeding.

Last edited by Doormat_No_More; 11/22/11 02:16 PM.

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Aphelion,

Originally Posted by Aphelion
Why do I have to forgive?
Because God commands it, and if you don�t you bring judgment upon yourself.
Matthew 6:14-16 - �For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.�
Originally Posted by Aphelion
Or is being unable to forgive adultery worse than adultery and in some way not forgivable?
Un-forgiveness in and of itself I don�t believe is a sin, but in withholding forgiveness you become accountable for all of your sins. Not that it matters but sin is sin (none better or worse than adultery), and is punishable by death.
Originally Posted by Aphelion
Every adulterer on the planet just has to form some quick unfocussed thought of sorry on their deathbed and God will forgive them without consequence.
For God to forgive, true repentance is required, a fully changed heart. Only God knows if this occurs. A quick unfocussed thought on the death bed is probably guilt or fear, not a changed heart (but we can�t know for sure).


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Originally Posted by Aphelion
If you haven�t been there you are not qualified to form an opinion.

Someone please let Dr Harley know his books, website, counseling center, and 30+ years of clinical experience are invalid because he's never experienced adultery.


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Originally Posted by bitbucket
Originally Posted by Aphelion
If you haven�t been there you are not qualified to form an opinion.

Someone please let Dr Harley know his books, website, counseling center, and 30+ years of clinical experience are invalid because he's never experienced adultery.

Okey dokey.

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Originally Posted by Aphelion
Every adulterer on the planet just has to form some quick unfocussed thought of sorry on their deathbed and God will forgive them without consequence.
Well, it's happened before. Remember the guy on the cross next to Jesus? I'd say he was on his deathbed.


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I want to be careful here. No desire to offend true believers.

You don�t seem to have read or at least retained all of my post.

But yours, I read carefully (it was short).

By your example the logical extension is sin has no consequences. Do whatever you want until the last second and hope you have time for an act of contrition.

But wait. He was being crucified, wasn�t he? For, what was it, theft? Murder? It varies between accounts. Or was it adultery? Anyway, he was experiencing some serious consequences, IMO. Thus�[fill in the blank]...perhaps he earned his eleventh hour moment to rue his actions.

I think your example proves my point, actually.

Have you ever wondered if the woman caught in adultery actually went and sinned no more? I hope she didn�t. But not likely based on the typical adulterer�s modus operandi.

Do you think WPG�s BH might think a bit like I do? No consequences, no sin? Could be part of the reason he is stuck.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

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Originally Posted by Aphelion
Do you think WPG�s BH might think a bit like I do? No consequences, no sin? Could be part of the reason he is stuck.

Could be! But we are just guessing, aren't we...


Originally Posted by Aphelion
Have you ever wondered if the woman caught in adultery actually went and sinned no more? I hope she didn�t. But not likely based on the typical adulterer�s modus operandi.

The adulteress� sins may have been forgiven, but she still had to live in the same community with everyone knowing the truth of her sins. Her sins were always before her.
"For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me." Psalm 51:3


The part that I sometimes wonder about is this; Where was the BS, and did he get to vote on whether to cast the first stone? Was he in the crowd with a stone in his hand or did he just stay home that day to let the consequences fall where they may?? Did he issue her a certificate of divorce since she had elluded what the law of that time demanded??
I would love a Paul Harvey moment with this one... wink





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Originally Posted by nomoreplease
Aphelion,

Originally Posted by Aphelion
Why do I have to forgive?
Because God commands it, and if you don�t you bring judgment upon yourself.
Matthew 6:14-16 - �For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.�
Originally Posted by Aphelion
Or is being unable to forgive adultery worse than adultery and in some way not forgivable?
Un-forgiveness in and of itself I don�t believe is a sin, but in withholding forgiveness you become accountable for all of your sins. Not that it matters but sin is sin (none better or worse than adultery), and is punishable by death.
Originally Posted by Aphelion
Every adulterer on the planet just has to form some quick unfocussed thought of sorry on their deathbed and God will forgive them without consequence.
For God to forgive, true repentance is required, a fully changed heart. Only God knows if this occurs. A quick unfocussed thought on the death bed is probably guilt or fear, not a changed heart (but we can�t know for sure).
Hi WPG. i've posted on your thread before though there are times when i do not feel qualified to post on anyone's threads bc my handling of my situation has been less than optimal. i am in the BH camp here along w/ numerous others, and i've said this before (many times probably) smile but i WISH my WW had one ounce of your character. you have earned your F in FWW. it is Broken's loss that he is blind to that. you are deserving of more. i indeed concur that he has to chit or get off the pot. i feel your trepidation and hesitancy in broaching this subject w/ him bc you don't want to scare him off, but you cannot go on like this. CV, DNM, TR all offer great advice. i also think that you should have that sit down w/ him. it is not fair to you now that he is having some of his needs met whilst offering little in return. sure you have to wonder about an RA. and i readily understand your guilt and need to assume responsibility for this situation, but there comes a point where you need closure. you have to move on with him or without him. it has taken me the longest time to get there personally. i love my W but enough to say goodbye.

sometimes it takes the impending loss of something we have taken for granted to prompt a person into saving it or changing. maybe a separation or plan B initiated by you is called for? i can only say that i am your biggest fan and pray for you, broken and your 2 daughters. i try to keep lotsa of people here in my mind and heart. talk to you soon.

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