What makes one ready for being a FWW instead of a WW in your opinion?

What makes one ready to be a FWW vs a WW in your opinion?

So, do you think it comes down to laziness or procrastination then?

If that's the case, rather than reluctance, then you are both going to have to get strict with setting some deadlines in completing things, coupled with consequences when they don't get done. Consequences could be a call in to SH or another form of accountability, like confessing on here that you didn't do something...and having to take the licks for it.


Can you assure us that there is no more gaslighting on his part? He's not telling you he wants to do it just to keep you off his back, right??? Remember...RADICAL honesty is expected between the two of you.

And for your part - are you staying clear of A talk and focusing on actions?

Tonight you guys need to sit down and focus on the BENEFITS of what the rewards of the MB program will bring to your lives - and not just yours - but your children's as well!

SunnyD- Sorry I took so long to reply. I think the main problem is that he has not read many of the books and so doesn't know about things such as the Protections in Marriage, etc. I also think we are severely lacking in IC (I don't feel that he is being open and honest to me about what he feels or thinks, even though I straight out ask him). There is also a lack of accountablity and accounting of time. Yor question about gas-lighting, I don't think so but sometimes just a simple thing of him not answering my texts is a huge trigger for me and puts back to the A days. Sometimes I feel so weak and paranoid and like I am losing my mind. Anyway, I plan on printing out more EN questionnaires and having us fill them out.

On another note, our 11th wedding anniversary is this saturday. I went to the card store to get kiss an anniversary card. Ugh, what an awful experience. Any one of them I would have gotten a year ago, now...not so much. It made me sad...and it made me angry that he destroyed that in me. Going to try another store today and hope I can find something, but it will difficult and may walk out emty-handed again.

PS I am sttering clear of A talk and trying to watch his actions

Are you and Kiss doing the at home program/online program at all? Or just separately reading some of Dr Harley's books? I forgot what program you are following.

I am not in a position to give advice as you know, but I will say that right now I generally go for the fun, playful cards and not the meaningfully written cards. Kinda feel like it will help recovery more to be playful than to add another heaviness to it. Plus, Hallmark doesn't make cards for this exact situation...

Very true, uw! Perhaps a company should, they would do well, lol. Did not find anything at the last store I went to and even the funny ones had some note of ...blech.

We are not doing either program, but rather have the books and the workbook. I have read SAA, HNHN and Lovebusters. He has listened to HNHN on audio. I looked at the lovebusters questionaire and just couldn't think of anything to write. Neither one of us have AO's, selfish demands, etc. Well, we probably do, but not anything I can reflect back on and say, oh! That was a selfish demand. We do best with the EN's one. I think that one helps with conversation between us and opening up talk about unhappiness. We also still need to make an appt with SH. We won't have a day off together during the week until the end of June!

Good. Every time you two discuss it, you take things back to day 1.

It's self-flagellation at it's worst.








While you do this, try to silence that inner gremlin that tells you he's full of crap (I would also suggest not listening to that little voice's advice to aerate him with a high-heeled shoe).



Stop bringing up the A, redirect your thoughts.

Have you seen Dr. Harley's new article?
How To Negotiate When You're An Emotional Person

Thanks for the link, BH. It helps.

Got through the anniversary OK. Spent the earlier part of the day with my parents, brothers, in laws, aunt and my grandfather who was visting for the day. A bit awkward since kiss is still not welcome there. He has yet to speak to my parents and at this point, I'm not sure he will.

Then kiss and I went to dinner and to a play. We had a really nice time and I just focused on spending time with him rather than on our vows that he stomped all over. Had a rough spot earlier in the day but I endured it and then moved on.

We meet with the MC again on monday but I don't see that she is helping and would rather switch over completely to coaching with SH. Just have to convince kiss.

HUGS RQ.

Sounds like you had a good head on your shoulders on anniversary day. I agree it is best to focus on the moment instead of the meaning, right now.

I was thinking about you while looking for a Father's Day card for H. They didn't seem to make any fitting. I got one that said "Not long ago, a husband could come home to find his slippers, a drink, the evening paper, and his beautiful wife waiting for him. Oh well, at least you still get the beautiful wife part." Modesty at its finest.

Glad you and Kiss had a good anniversary.

I can totally relate to the card situation... it can be difficult finding something appropriate when the wounds are still so fresh. Just know that it DOES get easier with time! Next year it will a TON better and even more so the following year. It helps to keep in mind that your long-term goal of a great marriage is what's most important.

RQ, you need to set an agreed upon deadline for him to complete the books. The problem is, he can't possibly fully get why certain things are important (like answering your texts right away or being radically honest) if he doesn't have a good grasp on the basic principles of the program. Once he understands, my bet is he will follow through with actions much more easily.

The lack of accountability is a problem that must be addressed! If the two of you can't hold each other accountable, then it is essential that you do the online program or personal counseling with one of the MB marriage coaches so that you stay on track.

The books are easy to read and don't take long. Make this a priority! The questionnaires will need to be redone after awhile as your needs will change in different stages of recovery - or at least that was my experience.

Very true, but short of shoving the books in front of him, I just don't know what else to do. He just does not seem to be willing to learn how to have a great marriage using the MB concepts. Nor has he posted in a while. We spoke about this in MC last night and he will nod his head and say he will but is not following through in the actions. I don't know how much longer I will be able to hold on waiting for him to WANT this. I have read all of the books so far as well as all of the articles on here.

Well...it should have been a condition of your willingness to begin the road to recovery with him. Since it wasn't, I'm not sure what you can do either unless you are willing to play hardball. The thing is, the path to true healing only comes from having a better marriage - an EXCEPTIONAL marriage - after the affair. If that doesn't happen and real change doesn't take place, you are asking for trouble down the road. And this new marriage only occurs because of specific actions taken on a narrow road.

I would urge you to find it within you to make this MANDATORY or you will not find the peace you are looking for. We can all support you through that, but it has to be you that stands up for it, ya know?

I don't know how to put that icon for banging your head against a wall...because I know exactly how you are feeling.

As you know RQ, I have been there! WHY oh why can the person who derailed the train in the first place and states they want to do !!whatever it takes!! to put it back on the tracks, just DO it. Stop talking about it, then being lazy about it, or whatever the heck their reason for not 'really' wanting it is, and just DO it. All talk no action. Its just completely and utterly frustrating.

Hugs to you. I have no advice, just want you to know you are not alone with this frustration.

I was just reading some stuff on chickadee's thread, wanted to write something to you in regards to one of your posts and not t/j. I know you have said that you didn't want or ask for any details from Kiss about his A. And I just read now that you feel he has still withheld details. Now I can only speak from experience, but the 'not knowing' has eaten at me over the years. I came to the point where I had to know ALL of the truth, every gorry detail. Not that I necessarily needed to know the actual detail as much as I needed to know that H was willing to give me ANY information I requested, in an O&H way. Whether that has happened remains to be seen, tomorrow at the poly... I just cannot move forward with recovery without knowing that H has been completely O&H with me. Being willing to tell me anything and everything, to me was part of 'getting it,' that he damaged me and he has to do whatever I ask to heal me and for a chance at recovery.

Since we have been at similar points in our recovery, not really able to put both feet in the water, I am thinking you might want to explore if this is a need you have too? To me, if Kiss is unwilling to give you ALL details or information you want to know, in an O&H way, then it doesn't fare well for his true commitment to recovery, which speaks volumes to your OWN commitment to recovery. Just a thought.

Also, H was telling me last night that in hindsight of his PA early in our M, and the fact that he buried it and kept it a secret for years, continuing with that type of behavior and lying along the way...he says that he can see now just how much it kept him from engaging with me and having an emotionally intimate relationship with me. I used to always complain about his "H hugs" where he would hug me but use his thumbs to try and push me away. And how he would never look me in the eye. He says now he thinks he just felt like engaging with me, looking me in the eye, would allow me to see who he truly was and the secrets he was hiding. Part of the protection for him and his secrets was to keep me at arms length. The testament to that is since telling me about his PA, he has never, to my recollection, done an "H hug" and he always looks me in the eye now. There is a huge difference in his interest at engaging me.

My point by all that is, if Kiss still has some secrets, or hasn't been completely O&H with you about his A, still feels like he has some items in 'the vault' as I like to call it, it could possibly be in the way of HIM engaging in recovery and being able to intimately invest in this.

But as we know, I have no answers, just a lot of random thoughts, lol.

You bring up some good points, Unwritten!

A WS doesn't earn their "F" until they are willing to do ANYTHING... and maybe they aren't willing to do just anything yet, because they are afraid of having their feet held to the fire on the O&H part.

Mind you, no WS WANTS to tell details. I'm not saying they should be jumping up and down with joy ready to talk about it til the cows come home...but still: there HAS to be a willingness. It's the least they can do - no matter how much shame they suffer momentarily - after what they have put their faithful spouses through.

I'm Ok with not knowing the exact BEGINNING of the A. I had asked and he wasn't sure when he started having feelings for her and to me, it doesn't really matter. It really doesn't change things for me. I am already hurt by what was done and how he acted that finding out more when I am trying to heal will not help. Thanks for the thoughts though. That is just how I feel. I know some need to know the down and dirty details but I sure don't!

Things have been going very well lately with the exception of him being here (on the site I mean lol). We had agreed that he would at least read the articles on here and post. We have been quite busy cleaning and such as his parents and sister will be in town tomorrow and spending the week with us. I have mixed feelings about it as I feel they had abondoned me during the Jan-March Plan B time. But for the sake of my kids, I will put on my big girl panties and be a gracious host to them.

I'm falling more in love with kiss every day as we continue to spend lots of UA time together and he continues to meet my EN's.

Unwritten - I just re-read your post and I think that what I could do is ask "Is there anything else I should know that you haven't been radically open and honest about?" That should cover any secrets, yes?

Did you make your feelings known to Kiss - about his family visiting? Remember, everything should be POJA'd - and if you didn't want his family staying with you for a week, that should have been negotiated. H and I recently went through this - so I'm just asking. Remember, it's not your job to "suck it up" and go with the flow. In fact, it's not either of your jobs.

My parents came to town for a week and we had them stay at a hotel for part of the time. It was not the easiest thing to deal with - the way my mother is - but my husband came first! Putting your big girl panties on does not sound like this visit is something you enthusiastically agreed to.