Scenario:
• EA discovered 8 months ago, going on since approx 11/01
• Lies, lies, lies, and only lies; about the A, the involvement, the contact, the reasons
• When confronted with evidence, hysterical screaming about her privacy, not possible to address evidence or what it means, or that it confirms the lies.
• WW does not acknowledge this has hurt me, us, M
• WW has not shown remorse of any kind
• WW feels she “has done nothing wrong”
• WW feels it is her “right” to have this R, and that I have no right to ask or know about it
• WW does not see that A and contact have to end
• WW does not see that the lies have to stop
• WW does not see that we need to deal with this
• WW does not acknowledge there is a “secret second life”
• WW has said that she wants M to continue and to improve
• WW has made great strides in fulfilling BS’s ENs
• WW believes doing this “should be enough” to show her commitment to M and BS
• BS has acknowledged and shown remorse for not fulfilling ENs
• BS has made great strides in fulfilling WW’s ENs
• BS has Plan A’d his b--- off
• BS has LB’d quite a bit at the beginning, brought under control
• BS and WW have been to IC and joint MC, WW has walked out of MC every time the lies are exposed
• BS has expressed desire to re-build, indicated patience will not last forever, offered to help WW in every way possible, asked for commitment to a “program” (hopefully Harley)
• WW does not want to talk about R, plan, issues
• WW does talk of the future, all the time
• WW has lied in the same way to her family, sister, close friends, etc.
• WW does not respond to or comment about BS’s letters, articles, books<p>OK, “old-timers”, what is the Harley formula for this one?
This in not a test, I have tried to stick to all MB principles, have prepared myself for D, or Plan B, what do I do?!?!?!?!?!

Patience, time, consistency. No demands. Plan A, then Plan B.<p>Seriously, Spaceman, "this one" is very much in the "norm" as affairs go, IMHO.

Yep, pretty much the norm.<p>You are only 3 months past exposure of the affair - does family know the truth?<p>You are in counseling with SH right?<p>My best advice is to do exactly what he says, his predictions can be more than a little uncanny! He won't guide you badly.<p>At some point you'll probably have to take some pretty tough love decisions, but in the end you are going to come out of this a stronger person.

Like the 2 wise people before me.<p>all you wrote is very typical, very average for the WS, the A & your responce.<p>Like BR said talk to Steve, he can help you plan the best. This was something I didn't do but there were reasons why I couldn't. I wish I could had worked it out.<p>No matter how this ends by Plan Aing & if you chose to do so Plan B, YOU will come out a stronger person.

Spacecase, Seems pretty usual from what I've read and lived. I see "IT", but until my wife sees it for her self, then does something about it, nothing happens.
Make yourself the best person you can be, patient, caring, kind, and knowing when to back off so spouse can make up their own mind. I can only change me. She has to work on herself. You just tire yourself out if you carry her too. Let them know where to find the tools and information, but let them build themselves. Encourage, but let them be proud of themselves if/when they succede.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>Patience, time, consistency. No demands. Plan A, then Plan B.<p>Seriously, Spaceman, "this one" is very much in the "norm" as affairs go, IMHO.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks WAT; Isn't it a little "outside the norm" to be in such complete denial of tha A? Even when it's been exposed several times? I mean, around here we hear a lot of couples that are talking about it, can discuss it to a certain extent, where it's accepted, there's SOME work on it (end contact, some regret, some empathy for the feelings of the BS, etc.) In my case it's a very major LB and very major "scene" if/whan I try to. Just a TOTAL blackout as far as the A is concerned.<p>She just says "It's over, it's been over, I won't prove it, but just believe me and move on"

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Yep, pretty much the norm.<p>You are only 3 months past exposure of the affair - does family know the truth?<p>You are in counseling with SH right?<p>My best advice is to do exactly what he says, his predictions can be more than a little uncanny! He won't guide you badly.<p>At some point you'll probably have to take some pretty tough love decisions, but in the end you are going to come out of this a stronger person.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks BR,<p>"3 months past exposure" ? It's been 8 months...<p>Some members of the family know: MIL, 1 SIL; I haven't wanted to really go there, it's too much of an LB, I think...and no real influence. SIL advises her some, but I'm afraid she's in the "spying on her is worse that anything SHE's done, even if you've proven the lies" camp, so I'm not sure that's much good...<p>Yes, I'm following Steve's counsel to the letter, and I agree he's "uncannily accurate"...amazing!<p>And yes, I think it'll come to tough-love/Plan B at some point...hate that idea, though!

Thanks also to Sing & Daniel;<p>Indeed, I am already much stronger and better, and have come a VERY long way from the despair of the first few weeks.<p>This place is a godsend!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>Isn't it a little "outside the norm" to be in such complete denial of tha A? Even when it's been exposed several times?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Based on my own experience and from what I've read here for many months, it's very typical.<p>This is as actual, unretouched conversation I had with my WS before she moved out:<p>Her: I'm in love with <OM>.<p>Me: Oh, so you now admit to having an affair?<p>Her: NO! I said I was in love with <OM>. I'm NOT having an affair. What part of that don't you understand?<p>So, yes, you are correct that you can read here of some WSs who acknowledge what they have done and have some empathy for their BSs. But I believe these WSs were once likely where your WS is now, and mine still is after almost two years. It may be a HUGE variable among WSs of how long they can stay in denial. I can't speak any more to this pathology, but perhaps some others can.<p>WAT

I could have written a list much like yours, with an added 5 or so affairs of my ex's thrown in - honestly.<p>Although every affair seems to follow a similiar chronology, they all differ, because the WS's differ, we differ, our situations differ. <p>Lori(Lostva) saved her marriage with a really long Plan A, and she never went into Plan B, even when the Harley's and most of us would have suggested it. IT WORKED FOR HER. <p>Plan A is really about YOU. We say it all the time, but so few really "get" it. If your marriage is restored, it is a BONUS. <p>Your W is saying and doing everything by the WS script, but the final act is yet to come. You can help determine that.<p>I know how much it all hurts. And you are a wonderful person for acknowledging your part in the marriage breakdown. YOU ARE A BETTER PERSON. In some ways, you have *already* succeeded! Do you have any idea of how many BS's NEVER see their part in the marriage breakdown? <p>If you still have it in you, continue your Plan A effort. But GET HELP with it. Call the Harley's, if you can afford it. Sometimes we **think** we're doing a bang-up Plan A, when in fact we're PUSHING OUR WS AWAY!<p>Best wishes as you continue down this stormy path... you have a good heart.<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

not really an old-timer... but wanted to outline some gold stars around what these folks are telling ya. There's some great stuff here.<p>I remember WAT saying the da nile ain't just a river in Egypt. (Did I spell that right?? Probably not... but you get the point [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm bad about getting punch lines all screwed up... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) <p>....anyway... It's very common for the WS to deny EA's and PA's. If you've followed sad dad at all... that's what his wife is doing as well.. right through the D process as well. The first time my H was home for 3 weeks, he said the A was over, but stayed out til 2 am every night. hmmmm... grocery shopping?? star-gazing??? <p>I know you want to be sure you're doing the right things. You are. Focus on yourself, and let Steve strategize with you about the marriage.<p>huggggssss... and hang in there!<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Hi Spacecase,<p>I am the baby of the bunch ahead of me!!!! But I '
feel' like an old timer.....does that count!?!?! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Here my summation: <p>1. Your W is not ready to be in recovery.
2. Her attitude does not qualify her for recovery.<p>3. You have shown admitted your know faults and working on making those changes.
4. You say you are plan Aing your butt off. <p>5. You have both met with an with IC/MC but without full cooperation from your W. <p>Based on the above:<p>1. You can't be in a M recovery until she is willing to participate. <p>2. So work on your recovery. You have already begun, continue advancing with you and your family. This will leave her behind and she needs to see that. How that affects a female WS seems to vary. Women are very different from men at this point. More likely to give up all if pushed....why? I am not sure but women's limits are different from men. Still this is not an excuse to let you be the doormat. Women in this category also tend to push their loving men to their limits. <p>3. Realize that you may not have fully identified all your faults. Some of them will need to come from your family. Point blank questions will not always work so you will need to develop a network of checkpoints. Much harder to do but once put in place the info will come flowing in.....will you be ready to handle it? From: "dad, why do you always make comments when I am on the phone?
That really bugs me." to "dear, when you take out the garbage and don't put in a replacement bag, I feel like you are doing a 1/2 a$$ job and that bothers me." <p>
4. Tell us what your & your W's EN questionnaire scores were.
5. Tell us what books you have read or reviewed.
6. Continue to work with your IC/MC regardless of whether she does or not. Steve is good and can provide good direction. <p>7. Remember there are no guarantees in this process. Just do the best you can. Be satisfied with your best. <p>8. Refuse to be your W's doormat.
9. Require all in the family to show value and respect for each other. <p>10. Where and when possible show the love for all, children and W. When rejected don't hide it. Your children can come to your defense if they know your W is being mean to you. Visa versa also. The funny thing with this is that my H is defensive of me when 'others' take advantage of me. Hm.... I have to patiently remind him that he has done the same and then he is able to step back and see what he has really done. Part of recovery. <p>11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line). <p>12. You may need to put your needs on the back burner for a while but don't keep them there!<p>13. Don't be afraid to give your W some work. That is essential to the healing process. Remember in the hospital, patients are told to rest but often therapy is given right away. So don't enable your W. <p>14. I am sure there are more items. My allergies are frying my brain right now and my eyes are watering. <p>But this is a start right? Take it from here spacecase.........<p>L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong><p>Based on my own experience and from what I've read here for many months, it's very typical.
WAT</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I guess the part that's so hard to break through on is that the A was discovered, and she made multiple attempts at hiding it better, and I became a master spy and kept finding them, until the confrontations with the evidence became so darned awful, (and they were not having the desired effect: admission), I stopped doing it.
Since then, she's just been saying that it's over (and I know it's not), but I just have not wanted to confront her with evidence any more because of the major LBs they turned into.<p>So she's kinda' in a good place, where she might think I believe her, or she knows she handled the evidence in a way that will probably prevent me from doing it again, and she's settled into this gliding mode where everything's just peachy, and I'm sometimes seething...even though I've been very clear in letters and conversations that I don't believe it's over, and that it's up to her when/if this is going to be discussed and dealt with. She know how I feel about this...just doesn't seem to mind keeping the status quo...<p>Definitely not close to recovery...no question.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>...
Plan A is really about YOU. We say it all the time, but so few really "get" it. If your marriage is restored, it is a BONUS. <p>Your W is saying and doing everything by the WS script, but the final act is yet to come. You can help determine that.<p>I know how much it all hurts. And you are a wonderful person for acknowledging your part in the marriage breakdown. YOU ARE A BETTER PERSON. In some ways, you have *already* succeeded! Do you have any idea of how many BS's NEVER see their part in the marriage breakdown? <p>If you still have it in you, continue your Plan A effort. But GET HELP with it. Call the Harley's, if you can afford it. Sometimes we **think** we're doing a bang-up Plan A, when in fact we're PUSHING OUR WS AWAY!<p>Best wishes as you continue down this stormy path... you have a good heart.<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Agreed that Plan A is about me, and that's right where I am. It's just that one does expect (wish for) SOME fog-lifting to begin while you're doing it...not the expected outcome, but a welcome side-effect I've had very little taste of.<p>Plan A goes on, and we ARE counseling with Steve Harley; W's first session is tomorrow....it's a Mother's Day present! ;-)<p>Thanks!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>not really an old-timer... <p>...I know you want to be sure you're doing the right things. You are. Focus on yourself, and let Steve strategize with you about the marriage.<p>huggggssss... and hang in there!<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks Faith1;
Well, I say anything lower than 12-13000 is an "old-timer" and I mean that in the very best way! ;-)<p>I think I've been doing the right thing, sometimes not, getting better, working on my many and major issues, LBs, etc. as well, come to accept them better than I thought I might...but yes, we do need reassurance and corrections all along the way...and I'm very hopeful that Steve will help us find a way...our way.

Orchid,
Thank you, a very complete response, and a challenge...I love it!
Here goes:<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I am the baby of the bunch ahead of me!!!! But I '
feel' like an old timer.....does that count!?!?! <hr></blockquote> <p>Darlin', being in the 8000s definitely counts! ;-)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Here my summation: <p>1. Your W is not ready to be in recovery.<hr></blockquote><p>Agreed.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2. Her attitude does not qualify her for recovery.<hr></blockquote><p>Agreed.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>3. You have shown admitted your know faults and working on making those changes.
4. You say you are plan Aing your butt off. <p>5. You have both met with an with IC/MC but without full cooperation from your W. <p>Based on the above:<p>1. You can't be in a M recovery until she is willing to participate. <hr></blockquote><p>Agreed; that is what I'm trying to get to...how?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2. So work on your recovery. You have already begun, continue advancing with you and your family. This will leave her behind and she needs to see that. <hr></blockquote><p>This is exactly what I am trying to do. It may sound like I want to "get her on board" (which I do), but it is very much a desire and a wish, as a side-effect of my Plan A. I am quite on-board with the idea that Plan A and moving to recovery are for me first.<p>Ideas are welcome...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How that affects a female WS seems to vary. Women are very different from men at this point. More likely to give up all if pushed....why? I am not sure but women's limits are different from men. Still this is not an excuse to let you be the doormat. Women in this category also tend to push their loving men to their limits. <hr></blockquote><p>Interesting perspective. And I believe you're right; she'd probably be more likely to hold her position that I would, and she might just be willing to end the M before admitting she's done anything wrong. She may come to regret it, but it won't happen for years!<p>Any ideas here?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>3. Realize that you may not have fully identified all your faults. Some of them will need to come from your family. Point blank questions will not always work so you will need to develop a network of checkpoints. Much harder to do but once put in place the info will come flowing in.....will you be ready to handle it? From: "dad, why do you always make comments when I am on the phone?
That really bugs me." to "dear, when you take out the garbage and don't put in a replacement bag, I feel like you are doing a 1/2 a$$ job and that bothers me." <hr></blockquote><p>You are quite correct here. There is no doubt in my mind that she has not been as forthcoming with her ENs and my LBs as she might be. For several reasons: 1st, conversations about this are sensitive, and usually lead to places she does not want to go. 2nd, she realizes that I am trying to fulfill ENs the OM is currently fulfilling, and she certainly does not want to tell me about what the OM does for her; again, it's a subject considered "off limits".<p>But there is no doubt that there are more areas I have to identify and work on, as well as additional work on areas I'm already working on...I understand this is, and will be a lifelong process. It'd be wonderful to have her on board as well with even 50% of the enthusiasm and self-analysis I have shown...<p>I can handle it, I have found that I am very much a self-critic, and I have been able to not only admit to these failings, but actively work on correcting them.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>4. Tell us what your & your W's EN questionnaire scores were. <hr></blockquote><p>Not sure what you mean by "scores" but here are our top 5: (and I'm willing to expand on this if you'd like)
Mine -
Honesty & Openess
Admiration
Affection
Financial Support
Sexual Fulfillment<p>Hers -
Conversation
Sexual Fulfillment (I have no idea where this came from!)
Affection
Recreational Companionship
Financial Support<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>5. Tell us what books you have read or reviewed. <hr></blockquote><p>Spacecase's Book List - Recommended Reading:
My "Affair Bibles" (please don't take offense, The Bible is THE BIBLE, and will always be first. Albeit, in my case, the Old Testament, 5 Books of Moses, Torah, whatever you choose to call it.)<p>1. Surviving an Affair - Harley/Chalmers - Clearly the definitive guidebook to sanity and hope during these turbulent times, and a must-read for anyone on these boards.<p>2. The Divorce Remedy - Weiner-Davis - A close second to SAA, very similar approaches and methods, less structure to the program.<p>3. After the Affair - Abrahms-Spring - Apart from the attempt to connect EVERYTHING to childhood experiences, a very thorough and complete guide with tremendous insight for all involved in an A.<p>Indispensable References<p>1. His Needs-Her Needs - Harley
2. Give & Take - Harley
3. Surviving Infidelity - Subotnik/Harris
4. Divorce Busting - Weiner-Davis<p>Other Books of Value<p>1. Fighting for Your Marriage - Markman/Stanley/Blumberg
2. Difficult Conversations - Stone/Patton/Heen
3. Conscious Loving - Handricks/Hendricks
4. Change your Life & Everyone in it - Weiner-Davis
5. Money Demons - Forward
6. Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus – Gray (In fact, the whole Venus & Mars series is great)<p>Some I did not like<p>1. When your Lover is Liar - Forward - Very valuable IF you're a betrayed woman (Most of the premises are based on real/perceived gender stereotypes, and for men it's too difficult to discern which could also apply to lying women.)<p>2. Affairs: Emergency Tactics - Rhodes - Very shallow. Only discusses 3 types of As, and attempts to make everything fit within those 3. If yours is precisely one of these, there could be some value to it, but in general, there's much better stuff out there.<p>3. Infidelity - Gough - Again, pretty shallow, author has been a WS and BS, hard to tell what's her personal experience/perception and what's more researched and solid.<p>4. Infidelity: A survival Guide - Lusterman - Way too textbook to be practical, much more of a study of the psychology of affairs. Of value if you're into in-depth psychoanalysis of affairs.<p>5. There were others here, but they were SO bad (IMHO) that they went right back to Half.com for sale!<p>On my reading list<p>1. Private Lies - Pittman (1/2-way thru)
2. Torn Asunder - Carter
3. How Could You Do That?! - Schlessinger
4. Love Must Be Tough - Straight Talk - Dobson<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>6. Continue to work with your IC/MC regardless of whether she does or not. Steve is good and can provide good direction.<hr></blockquote> <p>Correcto-mundo!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>7. Remember there are no guarantees in this process. Just do the best you can. Be satisfied with your best. <hr></blockquote><p>I know; I am; I'm trying, but my nature is to not be satisfied (must be the Project Manager in me...man, I've been doing that for too long!) ;-)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>8. Refuse to be your W's doormat.<hr></blockquote><p>I haven't been perhaps quite as good at this as I might. Probably because she was VERY effective in her extreme reactions to my discoveries, snooping, confronting the truth, and I may have backed off too much. Suggestions? <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>9. Require all in the family to show value and respect for each other. <hr></blockquote><p>Interesting idea, would you expand on this?
(I mean we have a very well developed sense of right and wrong, respect, judeo-christian values in general, but perhaps we need something else?)<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>10. Where and when possible show the love for all, children and W. When rejected don't hide it. Your children can come to your defense if they know your W is being mean to you. Visa versa also. The funny thing with this is that my H is defensive of me when 'others' take advantage of me. Hm.... I have to patiently remind him that he has done the same and then he is able to step back and see what he has really done. Part of recovery. <hr></blockquote><p>I do; I don't, and they do. (we have this very open relationship with the kids, and sometimes it feels like disrespect, when it's just their well-developed and encouraged right to speak their minds.)<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line). <hr></blockquote><p>Good, good. Do you mean let her know when I see that she's doing it, or recognize them to myself?<p>Timelines that are acceptable to me? or realistic (her speed), or negotiated timelines?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>12. You may need to put your needs on the back burner for a while but don't keep them there!<hr></blockquote><p>Back burner? Jeez, it feels like they're still in deep-freeze! I know, I know, but I'm a patient man, and I love my W, and I see now she needs a lot more help than I do.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>13. Don't be afraid to give your W some work. That is essential to the healing process. Remember in the hospital, patients are told to rest but often therapy is given right away. So don't enable your W. <hr></blockquote><p>Good idea. Like what kinds of stuff?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>14. I am sure there are more items. My allergies are frying my brain right now and my eyes are watering. <hr></blockquote><p>I sympathize...I'm the best customer Tylenol has for severe allegy sinus stuff! ;-) (And this sudden Houston summer is killing me!)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But this is a start right? Take it from here spacecase......... <hr></blockquote><p>whew! I didn't think I was going to make it through this! Back to you Orchid!<p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Ok Spacecase, <p>I have read your response. I see you are in here the for long haul and right now that Zyertec has kicked in. I will be dozing off in a few minutes, normal reaction for me with this drug. <p>So I will rest on your responses and come back a bit later. K? <p>U done good here. Keep it up. I am hoping that the many others chime in. <p>Jeeze, I give this guy something to think about and he does!!!! Ok the ball is back in our court....u old timers!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>L.

Orchid said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> So I will rest on your responses and come back a bit later. K? <hr></blockquote><p>10-4!

Spacecase,<p>Well gee, seems there's almost nothing left for me to say. You've gotten such wonderful advice and input.<p>So all I wanted to add is that the denial, despite all the evidence and time frame, is not that unusual. Seems that some WS think that if they deny it, it does not exist. <p>My ex-H denied his affair for 14 years. Actually he still denies them. Says he was a faithful husband as he could not live with himself were he anything less. But I have, still have, a box full of evidence. It sits in the garage collecting dust.. it's my sanity check. Every time I think back and wonder if I was making it all up because he seemed so hurt and sound so 'real' in his denials time after time, year after year. <p>In the divorce busting material, she says that many WS never admit to their affair(s) and will not ever want to talk about them. She advises people that at some point you just have to give up trying to get the truth and move on. I'm not sure I buy into that as I believe that radical honesty is the best policy.<p>Seems to me that despite the difficulties you are having, you are doing quite well.<p>Remember that one moves to plan B while they still have a little bit of love left for their spouse and only after a very good plan A. Are you there yet? If not, just keep plan A'ing like crazy.

ZW; thanks for the input!<p>you said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> My ex-H denied his affair for 14 years. Actually he still denies them. Says he was a faithful husband as he could not live with himself were he anything less. But I have, still have, a box full of evidence. It sits in the garage collecting dust.. it's my sanity check. Every time I think back and wonder if I was making it all up because he seemed so hurt and sound so 'real' in his denials time after time, year after year. <p>In the divorce busting material, she says that many WS never admit to their affair(s) and will not ever want to talk about them. She advises people that at some point you just have to give up trying to get the truth and move on. I'm not sure I buy into that as I believe that radical honesty is the best policy.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>14 years!?!? That is incredible! How do you do it?<p>I've read that this is indeed, sometimes the case; it just seems like so many of the "next steps" depend on this step, that it feels weird that you could go on without it.<p>Tell me more about how you've done it. For instance, do you have Radical Honesty, but just not about the A? Or FWS just doesn't subscribe to the concept at all?<p>What about the other stuuf? How do you "ensure" no contact when supposedly there IS nobody to Not Contact? Just not brought up at all? Do you check the behavior?<p>What about some of the other MB principles?