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Scenario:
• EA discovered 8 months ago, going on since approx 11/01
• Lies, lies, lies, and only lies; about the A, the involvement, the contact, the reasons
• When confronted with evidence, hysterical screaming about her privacy, not possible to address evidence or what it means, or that it confirms the lies.
• WW does not acknowledge this has hurt me, us, M
• WW has not shown remorse of any kind
• WW feels she “has done nothing wrong”
• WW feels it is her “right” to have this R, and that I have no right to ask or know about it
• WW does not see that A and contact have to end
• WW does not see that the lies have to stop
• WW does not see that we need to deal with this
• WW does not acknowledge there is a “secret second life”
• WW has said that she wants M to continue and to improve
• WW has made great strides in fulfilling BS’s ENs
• WW believes doing this “should be enough” to show her commitment to M and BS
• BS has acknowledged and shown remorse for not fulfilling ENs
• BS has made great strides in fulfilling WW’s ENs
• BS has Plan A’d his b--- off
• BS has LB’d quite a bit at the beginning, brought under control
• BS and WW have been to IC and joint MC, WW has walked out of MC every time the lies are exposed
• BS has expressed desire to re-build, indicated patience will not last forever, offered to help WW in every way possible, asked for commitment to a “program” (hopefully Harley)
• WW does not want to talk about R, plan, issues
• WW does talk of the future, all the time
• WW has lied in the same way to her family, sister, close friends, etc.
• WW does not respond to or comment about BS’s letters, articles, booksOK, “old-timers”, what is the Harley formula for this one?
This in not a test, I have tried to stick to all MB principles, have prepared myself for D, or Plan B, what do I do?!?!?!?!?!

Patience, time, consistency. No demands. Plan A, then Plan B.Seriously, Spaceman, "this one" is very much in the "norm" as affairs go, IMHO.

Yep, pretty much the norm.You are only 3 months past exposure of the affair - does family know the truth?You are in counseling with SH right?My best advice is to do exactly what he says, his predictions can be more than a little uncanny! He won't guide you badly.At some point you'll probably have to take some pretty tough love decisions, but in the end you are going to come out of this a stronger person.

Like the 2 wise people before me.all you wrote is very typical, very average for the WS, the A & your responce.Like BR said talk to Steve, he can help you plan the best. This was something I didn't do but there were reasons why I couldn't. I wish I could had worked it out.No matter how this ends by Plan Aing & if you chose to do so Plan B, YOU will come out a stronger person.

Spacecase, Seems pretty usual from what I've read and lived. I see "IT", but until my wife sees it for her self, then does something about it, nothing happens.
Make yourself the best person you can be, patient, caring, kind, and knowing when to back off so spouse can make up their own mind. I can only change me. She has to work on herself. You just tire yourself out if you carry her too. Let them know where to find the tools and information, but let them build themselves. Encourage, but let them be proud of themselves if/when they succede.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by worthatry:
Patience, time, consistency. No demands. Plan A, then Plan B.Seriously, Spaceman, "this one" is very much in the "norm" as affairs go, IMHO.<hr></blockquote>Thanks WAT; Isn't it a little "outside the norm" to be in such complete denial of tha A? Even when it's been exposed several times? I mean, around here we hear a lot of couples that are talking about it, can discuss it to a certain extent, where it's accepted, there's SOME work on it (end contact, some regret, some empathy for the feelings of the BS, etc.) In my case it's a very major LB and very major "scene" if/whan I try to. Just a TOTAL blackout as far as the A is concerned.She just says "It's over, it's been over, I won't prove it, but just believe me and move on"

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by BrambleRose:
Yep, pretty much the norm.You are only 3 months past exposure of the affair - does family know the truth?You are in counseling with SH right?My best advice is to do exactly what he says, his predictions can be more than a little uncanny! He won't guide you badly.At some point you'll probably have to take some pretty tough love decisions, but in the end you are going to come out of this a stronger person.<hr></blockquote>Thanks BR,"3 months past exposure" ? It's been 8 months...Some members of the family know: MIL, 1 SIL; I haven't wanted to really go there, it's too much of an LB, I think...and no real influence. SIL advises her some, but I'm afraid she's in the "spying on her is worse that anything SHE's done, even if you've proven the lies" camp, so I'm not sure that's much good...Yes, I'm following Steve's counsel to the letter, and I agree he's "uncannily accurate"...amazing!And yes, I think it'll come to tough-love/Plan B at some point...hate that idea, though!

Thanks also to Sing & Daniel;Indeed, I am already much stronger and better, and have come a VERY long way from the despair of the first few weeks.This place is a godsend!

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Spacecase:
Isn't it a little "outside the norm" to be in such complete denial of tha A? Even when it's been exposed several times?<hr></blockquote>Based on my own experience and from what I've read here for many months, it's very typical.This is as actual, unretouched conversation I had with my WS before she moved out:Her: I'm in love with <OM>.Me: Oh, so you now admit to having an affair?Her: NO! I said I was in love with <OM>. I'm NOT having an affair. What part of that don't you understand?So, yes, you are correct that you can read here of some WSs who acknowledge what they have done and have some empathy for their BSs. But I believe these WSs were once likely where your WS is now, and mine still is after almost two years. It may be a HUGE variable among WSs of how long they can stay in denial. I can't speak any more to this pathology, but perhaps some others can.WAT

I could have written a list much like yours, with an added 5 or so affairs of my ex's thrown in - honestly.Although every affair seems to follow a similiar chronology, they all differ, because the WS's differ, we differ, our situations differ. Lori(Lostva) saved her marriage with a really long Plan A, and she never went into Plan B, even when the Harley's and most of us would have suggested it. IT WORKED FOR HER. Plan A is really about YOU. We say it all the time, but so few really "get" it. If your marriage is restored, it is a BONUS. Your W is saying and doing everything by the WS script, but the final act is yet to come. You can help determine that.I know how much it all hurts. And you are a wonderful person for acknowledging your part in the marriage breakdown. YOU ARE A BETTER PERSON. In some ways, you have *already* succeeded! Do you have any idea of how many BS's NEVER see their part in the marriage breakdown? If you still have it in you, continue your Plan A effort. But GET HELP with it. Call the Harley's, if you can afford it. Sometimes we **think** we're doing a bang-up Plan A, when in fact we're PUSHING OUR WS AWAY!Best wishes as you continue down this stormy path... you have a good heart.[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

not really an old-timer... but wanted to outline some gold stars around what these folks are telling ya. There's some great stuff here.I remember WAT saying the da nile ain't just a river in Egypt. (Did I spell that right?? Probably not... but you get the point [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm bad about getting punch lines all screwed up... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ) ....anyway... It's very common for the WS to deny EA's and PA's. If you've followed sad dad at all... that's what his wife is doing as well.. right through the D process as well. The first time my H was home for 3 weeks, he said the A was over, but stayed out til 2 am every night. hmmmm... grocery shopping?? star-gazing??? I know you want to be sure you're doing the right things. You are. Focus on yourself, and let Steve strategize with you about the marriage.huggggssss... and hang in there![ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

Hi Spacecase,I am the baby of the bunch ahead of me!!!! But I '
feel' like an old timer.....does that count!?!?! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Here my summation: 1. Your W is not ready to be in recovery.
2. Her attitude does not qualify her for recovery.3. You have shown admitted your know faults and working on making those changes.
4. You say you are plan Aing your butt off. 5. You have both met with an with IC/MC but without full cooperation from your W. Based on the above:1. You can't be in a M recovery until she is willing to participate. 2. So work on your recovery. You have already begun, continue advancing with you and your family. This will leave her behind and she needs to see that. How that affects a female WS seems to vary. Women are very different from men at this point. More likely to give up all if pushed....why? I am not sure but women's limits are different from men. Still this is not an excuse to let you be the doormat. Women in this category also tend to push their loving men to their limits. 3. Realize that you may not have fully identified all your faults. Some of them will need to come from your family. Point blank questions will not always work so you will need to develop a network of checkpoints. Much harder to do but once put in place the info will come flowing in.....will you be ready to handle it? From: "dad, why do you always make comments when I am on the phone?
That really bugs me." to "dear, when you take out the garbage and don't put in a replacement bag, I feel like you are doing a 1/2 a$$ job and that bothers me." 
4. Tell us what your & your W's EN questionnaire scores were.
5. Tell us what books you have read or reviewed.
6. Continue to work with your IC/MC regardless of whether she does or not. Steve is good and can provide good direction. 7. Remember there are no guarantees in this process. Just do the best you can. Be satisfied with your best. 8. Refuse to be your W's doormat.
9. Require all in the family to show value and respect for each other. 10. Where and when possible show the love for all, children and W. When rejected don't hide it. Your children can come to your defense if they know your W is being mean to you. Visa versa also. The funny thing with this is that my H is defensive of me when 'others' take advantage of me. Hm.... I have to patiently remind him that he has done the same and then he is able to step back and see what he has really done. Part of recovery. 11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line). 12. You may need to put your needs on the back burner for a while but don't keep them there!13. Don't be afraid to give your W some work. That is essential to the healing process. Remember in the hospital, patients are told to rest but often therapy is given right away. So don't enable your W. 14. I am sure there are more items. My allergies are frying my brain right now and my eyes are watering. But this is a start right? Take it from here spacecase.........L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by worthatry:
Based on my own experience and from what I've read here for many months, it's very typical.
WAT<hr></blockquote>I guess the part that's so hard to break through on is that the A was discovered, and she made multiple attempts at hiding it better, and I became a master spy and kept finding them, until the confrontations with the evidence became so darned awful, (and they were not having the desired effect: admission), I stopped doing it.
Since then, she's just been saying that it's over (and I know it's not), but I just have not wanted to confront her with evidence any more because of the major LBs they turned into.So she's kinda' in a good place, where she might think I believe her, or she knows she handled the evidence in a way that will probably prevent me from doing it again, and she's settled into this gliding mode where everything's just peachy, and I'm sometimes seething...even though I've been very clear in letters and conversations that I don't believe it's over, and that it's up to her when/if this is going to be discussed and dealt with. She know how I feel about this...just doesn't seem to mind keeping the status quo...Definitely not close to recovery...no question.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by new_beginning:
...
Plan A is really about YOU. We say it all the time, but so few really "get" it. If your marriage is restored, it is a BONUS. Your W is saying and doing everything by the WS script, but the final act is yet to come. You can help determine that.I know how much it all hurts. And you are a wonderful person for acknowledging your part in the marriage breakdown. YOU ARE A BETTER PERSON. In some ways, you have *already* succeeded! Do you have any idea of how many BS's NEVER see their part in the marriage breakdown? If you still have it in you, continue your Plan A effort. But GET HELP with it. Call the Harley's, if you can afford it. Sometimes we **think** we're doing a bang-up Plan A, when in fact we're PUSHING OUR WS AWAY!Best wishes as you continue down this stormy path... you have a good heart.[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: new_beginning ]<hr></blockquote>Agreed that Plan A is about me, and that's right where I am. It's just that one does expect (wish for) SOME fog-lifting to begin while you're doing it...not the expected outcome, but a welcome side-effect I've had very little taste of.Plan A goes on, and we ARE counseling with Steve Harley; W's first session is tomorrow....it's a Mother's Day present! ;-)Thanks!

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Faith1:
not really an old-timer... ...I know you want to be sure you're doing the right things. You are. Focus on yourself, and let Steve strategize with you about the marriage.huggggssss... and hang in there![ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]<hr></blockquote>Thanks Faith1;
Well, I say anything lower than 12-13000 is an "old-timer" and I mean that in the very best way! ;-)I think I've been doing the right thing, sometimes not, getting better, working on my many and major issues, LBs, etc. as well, come to accept them better than I thought I might...but yes, we do need reassurance and corrections all along the way...and I'm very hopeful that Steve will help us find a way...our way.

Orchid,
Thank you, a very complete response, and a challenge...I love it!
Here goes:
<blockquote>quote:<hr> I am the baby of the bunch ahead of me!!!! But I '
feel' like an old timer.....does that count!?!?! <hr></blockquote> Darlin', being in the 8000s definitely counts! ;-) <blockquote>quote:<hr>Here my summation: 1. Your W is not ready to be in recovery.<hr></blockquote>Agreed.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>2. Her attitude does not qualify her for recovery.<hr></blockquote>Agreed. <blockquote>quote:<hr>3. You have shown admitted your know faults and working on making those changes.
4. You say you are plan Aing your butt off. 5. You have both met with an with IC/MC but without full cooperation from your W. Based on the above:1. You can't be in a M recovery until she is willing to participate. <hr></blockquote>Agreed; that is what I'm trying to get to...how? <blockquote>quote:<hr>2. So work on your recovery. You have already begun, continue advancing with you and your family. This will leave her behind and she needs to see that. <hr></blockquote>This is exactly what I am trying to do. It may sound like I want to "get her on board" (which I do), but it is very much a desire and a wish, as a side-effect of my Plan A. I am quite on-board with the idea that Plan A and moving to recovery are for me first.Ideas are welcome... <blockquote>quote:<hr>How that affects a female WS seems to vary. Women are very different from men at this point. More likely to give up all if pushed....why? I am not sure but women's limits are different from men. Still this is not an excuse to let you be the doormat. Women in this category also tend to push their loving men to their limits. <hr></blockquote>Interesting perspective. And I believe you're right; she'd probably be more likely to hold her position that I would, and she might just be willing to end the M before admitting she's done anything wrong. She may come to regret it, but it won't happen for years!Any ideas here? <blockquote>quote:<hr>3. Realize that you may not have fully identified all your faults. Some of them will need to come from your family. Point blank questions will not always work so you will need to develop a network of checkpoints. Much harder to do but once put in place the info will come flowing in.....will you be ready to handle it? From: "dad, why do you always make comments when I am on the phone?
That really bugs me." to "dear, when you take out the garbage and don't put in a replacement bag, I feel like you are doing a 1/2 a$$ job and that bothers me." <hr></blockquote>You are quite correct here. There is no doubt in my mind that she has not been as forthcoming with her ENs and my LBs as she might be. For several reasons: 1st, conversations about this are sensitive, and usually lead to places she does not want to go. 2nd, she realizes that I am trying to fulfill ENs the OM is currently fulfilling, and she certainly does not want to tell me about what the OM does for her; again, it's a subject considered "off limits".But there is no doubt that there are more areas I have to identify and work on, as well as additional work on areas I'm already working on...I understand this is, and will be a lifelong process. It'd be wonderful to have her on board as well with even 50% of the enthusiasm and self-analysis I have shown...I can handle it, I have found that I am very much a self-critic, and I have been able to not only admit to these failings, but actively work on correcting them. <blockquote>quote:<hr>4. Tell us what your & your W's EN questionnaire scores were. <hr></blockquote>Not sure what you mean by "scores" but here are our top 5: (and I'm willing to expand on this if you'd like)
Mine -
Honesty & Openess
Admiration
Affection
Financial Support
Sexual FulfillmentHers -
Conversation
Sexual Fulfillment (I have no idea where this came from!)
Affection
Recreational Companionship
Financial Support <blockquote>quote:<hr>5. Tell us what books you have read or reviewed. <hr></blockquote>Spacecase's Book List - Recommended Reading:
My "Affair Bibles" (please don't take offense, The Bible is THE BIBLE, and will always be first. Albeit, in my case, the Old Testament, 5 Books of Moses, Torah, whatever you choose to call it.)1. Surviving an Affair - Harley/Chalmers - Clearly the definitive guidebook to sanity and hope during these turbulent times, and a must-read for anyone on these boards.2. The Divorce Remedy - Weiner-Davis - A close second to SAA, very similar approaches and methods, less structure to the program.3. After the Affair - Abrahms-Spring - Apart from the attempt to connect EVERYTHING to childhood experiences, a very thorough and complete guide with tremendous insight for all involved in an A.Indispensable References1. His Needs-Her Needs - Harley
2. Give & Take - Harley
3. Surviving Infidelity - Subotnik/Harris
4. Divorce Busting - Weiner-DavisOther Books of Value1. Fighting for Your Marriage - Markman/Stanley/Blumberg
2. Difficult Conversations - Stone/Patton/Heen
3. Conscious Loving - Handricks/Hendricks
4. Change your Life & Everyone in it - Weiner-Davis
5. Money Demons - Forward
6. Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus – Gray (In fact, the whole Venus & Mars series is great)Some I did not like1. When your Lover is Liar - Forward - Very valuable IF you're a betrayed woman (Most of the premises are based on real/perceived gender stereotypes, and for men it's too difficult to discern which could also apply to lying women.)2. Affairs: Emergency Tactics - Rhodes - Very shallow. Only discusses 3 types of As, and attempts to make everything fit within those 3. If yours is precisely one of these, there could be some value to it, but in general, there's much better stuff out there.3. Infidelity - Gough - Again, pretty shallow, author has been a WS and BS, hard to tell what's her personal experience/perception and what's more researched and solid.4. Infidelity: A survival Guide - Lusterman - Way too textbook to be practical, much more of a study of the psychology of affairs. Of value if you're into in-depth psychoanalysis of affairs.5. There were others here, but they were SO bad (IMHO) that they went right back to Half.com for sale!On my reading list1. Private Lies - Pittman (1/2-way thru)
2. Torn Asunder - Carter
3. How Could You Do That?! - Schlessinger
4. Love Must Be Tough - Straight Talk - Dobson <blockquote>quote:<hr>6. Continue to work with your IC/MC regardless of whether she does or not. Steve is good and can provide good direction.<hr></blockquote> Correcto-mundo! <blockquote>quote:<hr>7. Remember there are no guarantees in this process. Just do the best you can. Be satisfied with your best. <hr></blockquote>I know; I am; I'm trying, but my nature is to not be satisfied (must be the Project Manager in me...man, I've been doing that for too long!) ;-) <blockquote>quote:<hr>8. Refuse to be your W's doormat.<hr></blockquote>I haven't been perhaps quite as good at this as I might. Probably because she was VERY effective in her extreme reactions to my discoveries, snooping, confronting the truth, and I may have backed off too much. Suggestions? <blockquote>quote:<hr>9. Require all in the family to show value and respect for each other. <hr></blockquote>Interesting idea, would you expand on this?
(I mean we have a very well developed sense of right and wrong, respect, judeo-christian values in general, but perhaps we need something else?)
<blockquote>quote:<hr>10. Where and when possible show the love for all, children and W. When rejected don't hide it. Your children can come to your defense if they know your W is being mean to you. Visa versa also. The funny thing with this is that my H is defensive of me when 'others' take advantage of me. Hm.... I have to patiently remind him that he has done the same and then he is able to step back and see what he has really done. Part of recovery. <hr></blockquote>I do; I don't, and they do. (we have this very open relationship with the kids, and sometimes it feels like disrespect, when it's just their well-developed and encouraged right to speak their minds.)
<blockquote>quote:<hr>11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line). <hr></blockquote>Good, good. Do you mean let her know when I see that she's doing it, or recognize them to myself?Timelines that are acceptable to me? or realistic (her speed), or negotiated timelines? <blockquote>quote:<hr>12. You may need to put your needs on the back burner for a while but don't keep them there!<hr></blockquote>Back burner? Jeez, it feels like they're still in deep-freeze! I know, I know, but I'm a patient man, and I love my W, and I see now she needs a lot more help than I do. <blockquote>quote:<hr>13. Don't be afraid to give your W some work. That is essential to the healing process. Remember in the hospital, patients are told to rest but often therapy is given right away. So don't enable your W. <hr></blockquote>Good idea. Like what kinds of stuff? <blockquote>quote:<hr>14. I am sure there are more items. My allergies are frying my brain right now and my eyes are watering. <hr></blockquote>I sympathize...I'm the best customer Tylenol has for severe allegy sinus stuff! ;-) (And this sudden Houston summer is killing me!) <blockquote>quote:<hr>But this is a start right? Take it from here spacecase......... <hr></blockquote>whew! I didn't think I was going to make it through this! Back to you Orchid![ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Ok Spacecase, I have read your response. I see you are in here the for long haul and right now that Zyertec has kicked in. I will be dozing off in a few minutes, normal reaction for me with this drug. So I will rest on your responses and come back a bit later. K? U done good here. Keep it up. I am hoping that the many others chime in. Jeeze, I give this guy something to think about and he does!!!! Ok the ball is back in our court....u old timers!!! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] L.

Orchid said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr> So I will rest on your responses and come back a bit later. K? <hr></blockquote>10-4!

Spacecase,Well gee, seems there's almost nothing left for me to say. You've gotten such wonderful advice and input.So all I wanted to add is that the denial, despite all the evidence and time frame, is not that unusual. Seems that some WS think that if they deny it, it does not exist. My ex-H denied his affair for 14 years. Actually he still denies them. Says he was a faithful husband as he could not live with himself were he anything less. But I have, still have, a box full of evidence. It sits in the garage collecting dust.. it's my sanity check. Every time I think back and wonder if I was making it all up because he seemed so hurt and sound so 'real' in his denials time after time, year after year. In the divorce busting material, she says that many WS never admit to their affair(s) and will not ever want to talk about them. She advises people that at some point you just have to give up trying to get the truth and move on. I'm not sure I buy into that as I believe that radical honesty is the best policy.Seems to me that despite the difficulties you are having, you are doing quite well.Remember that one moves to plan B while they still have a little bit of love left for their spouse and only after a very good plan A. Are you there yet? If not, just keep plan A'ing like crazy.

ZW; thanks for the input!you said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr> My ex-H denied his affair for 14 years. Actually he still denies them. Says he was a faithful husband as he could not live with himself were he anything less. But I have, still have, a box full of evidence. It sits in the garage collecting dust.. it's my sanity check. Every time I think back and wonder if I was making it all up because he seemed so hurt and sound so 'real' in his denials time after time, year after year. In the divorce busting material, she says that many WS never admit to their affair(s) and will not ever want to talk about them. She advises people that at some point you just have to give up trying to get the truth and move on. I'm not sure I buy into that as I believe that radical honesty is the best policy. <hr></blockquote>14 years!?!? That is incredible! How do you do it?I've read that this is indeed, sometimes the case; it just seems like so many of the "next steps" depend on this step, that it feels weird that you could go on without it.Tell me more about how you've done it. For instance, do you have Radical Honesty, but just not about the A? Or FWS just doesn't subscribe to the concept at all?What about the other stuuf? How do you "ensure" no contact when supposedly there IS nobody to Not Contact? Just not brought up at all? Do you check the behavior?What about some of the other MB principles?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I guess the part that's so hard to break through on is that the A was discovered, and she made multiple attempts at hiding it better, and I became a master spy and kept finding them, until the confrontations with the evidence became so darned awful, (and they were not having the desired effect: admission), I stopped doing it.<hr></blockquote>Glad you stopped, you were only hurting yourself. My H did the same thing. I knew he was cheating for months before i found proof. Even with proof and admission on his part he still told everyone else that I was blowing it out of porportion, I was crazy. He told his parents that I was reading into things and that I was psycho.That was until I found roughly 30 emails on his work computer btwn him and his OW that were pretty explicit. I showed them to his family and they let him know that they had read them. There was no more pretending. BUT, that didn't stop his affair. What it did do however, because his family was on my side, was to allow them to say to his face that his OW would never been accepted, even if I was divorced from him. It did put pressure on him, and I count THAT day as the day that there was full disclosure of the affair, even though my D-Day was 4 months before that.His affair came to a final conclusion almost exactly a year later. After that, I had to stop snooping. I already knew he was lying and cheating. Instead of trying to determine if or when he was lying it was easier to just assume the worst at all times, and then get on with my life. If he told me that the sky was blue - I didn't believe him until I checked for myself.Acceptance that the affair was ongoing and that he was a liar just made my own plan A and my own life that much simpler. I just nodded my head and said uh huh, or oh thats nice whenever he was around and talking at me. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Since then, she's just been saying that it's over (and I know it's not), but I just have not wanted to confront her with evidence any more because of the major LBs they turned into.<hr></blockquote>You know and she knows you know. Let it be at that. Anything else just becomes a demand or a judgement or results in angry outbursts. <blockquote>quote:<hr>So she's kinda' in a good place, where she might think I believe her, or she knows she handled the evidence in a way that will probably prevent me from doing it again, and she's settled into this gliding mode where everything's just peachy, and I'm sometimes seething...<hr></blockquote>If you are talking to SH on a regular basis, trust me, he won't let this "gliding" go on forever. He'll come up with a way for you to shake things up. In the meantime - work on acceptance. This is who she is right now. She's not the woman you want or wish she was.I have 2 more books for your reading list - the first one which you should RUN to B&N immediately to get.1. The Language of Letting Go by Melody Beattie
2. The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman#1 will start helping YOU immediately to detach emotionally and to work on acceptance. It's a daily reader, but you can just look up topics in the index and read by topic. It's very easy and I think its an absolute must for getting into a personal frame of mind that allows the best possible Plan A while dealing with active addiction (in this case, an affair).The 5 Love Languages is just a beautiful book. Both my H and I found it really really helpful in understanding each other's needs. It's the MB princples, just worded differently, but in a way that increases insight - it has a love TANK instead of a love BANK! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] My H was able to tell me after reading it that his love language was acts of service, and he got soooo much better at my need for affection when he was able to understand my need for physical affection and gift giving.It might help you figure out what your wife needs without having to get her cooperation.

Hi SpaceCase...How long since you discovered MB? The Harley's recommend a general...varies by situation and person...6 month period.IF THE A CONTINUES AND YOU FEEL YOUR LOVE BANK DRAINING... then plan b.I'm going to go even further in that I did a really 'shakey' plan A for 3-4 months... my best plan A started in October... H ended contact on his own...mostly in January.... BUT THAT IT WAS ONLY IN FEBRUARY THAT I GAVE THE WHOLE THING TO GOD. March and April and now May have been NOTHING short of miraculous...Give it up that you can control the outcome by plan A or plan B... give it up and give it to a HIGHER POWER! DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO MOVE ON AND BECOME A WHOLE... FUNCTIONING... JOYFUL PERSON! Cali

BR, thanks, great input. A couple of questions: <blockquote>quote:<hr> quote:
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I guess the part that's so hard to break through on is that the A was discovered, and she made multiple attempts at hiding it better, and I became a master spy and kept finding them, until the confrontations with the evidence became so darned awful, (and they were not having the desired effect: admission), I stopped doing it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Glad you stopped, you were only hurting yourself. <hr></blockquote>Agreed. I know it's going on, the details don't matter anymore. And it does hurt. Bad! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Acceptance that the affair was ongoing and that he was a liar just made my own plan A and my own life that much simpler. I just nodded my head and said uh huh, or oh thats nice whenever he was around and talking at me.<hr></blockquote>Pretty much my attitude. But did you feel he knew you knew? I mean, did you make it obvious? or did you just pretend you believed? <blockquote>quote:<hr>quote:
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Since then, she's just been saying that it's over (and I know it's not), but I just have not wanted to confront her with evidence any more because of the major LBs they turned into.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------You know and she knows you know. Let it be at that. Anything else just becomes a demand or a judgement or results in angry outbursts.<hr></blockquote>Do you really think she knows I know? I mean I know I say it, write it, have brought it up, but I act like everything's fine, and I love her, and we're doing great...I mean, like we're doing pretty good, that I'm giving her time, being patient...but I've told her I know; I just don't have proof (or shown it to her) since I stopped snooping.Is this something I should bring up more forcefully? At least sometimes? or should I just let it be? <blockquote>quote:<hr> quote:
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So she's kinda' in a good place, where she might think I believe her, or she knows she handled the evidence in a way that will probably prevent me from doing it again, and she's settled into this gliding mode where everything's just peachy, and I'm sometimes seething...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you are talking to SH on a regular basis, trust me, he won't let this "gliding" go on forever. He'll come up with a way for you to shake things up. <hr></blockquote>I agree. It's been said here before; let the MC bring up the "delicate" subjects. My fear is she'll just stop going when he does...has done it twice before. I told him that, though, so he should be prepared. I'm sure he will be! <blockquote>quote:<hr>In the meantime - work on acceptance. This is who she is right now. She's not the woman you want or wish she was.<hr></blockquote>I am trying. It's so hard though...the person you love, have shared 30 years of your life with...hard to believe you've been living with a stranger. Getting better at this, though. I'm feeling a lot stonger; it just hurts so much to feel like you're breaking away... <blockquote>quote:<hr>I have 2 more books for your reading list - the first one which you should RUN to B&N immediately to get.1. The Language of Letting Go by Melody Beattie
2. The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman
<hr></blockquote>Thanks! I'll get these right away.

Cali; love your handle...it's the name of the town I was born in.you said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr> How long since you discovered MB? The Harley's recommend a general...varies by situation and person...6 month period. <hr></blockquote>I discovered Divorce Busting first, about 2 months after DDay (6 months ago) and MB shortly thereafter. Didn't come to the boards until much later...reading, reading, reading. <blockquote>quote:<hr>IF THE A CONTINUES AND YOU FEEL YOUR LOVE BANK DRAINING... then plan b. <hr></blockquote>I've got it all ready to go. Still hanging on, still OK in Plan A, and hopeful not to have to move to B. Have a lot of faith in Steve H. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I'm going to go even further in that I did a really 'shakey' plan A for 3-4 months... my best plan A started in October... H ended contact on his own...mostly in January.... BUT THAT IT WAS ONLY IN FEBRUARY THAT I GAVE THE WHOLE THING TO GOD. March and April and now May have been NOTHING short of miraculous...Give it up that you can control the outcome by plan A or plan B... give it up and give it to a HIGHER POWER! DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO MOVE ON AND BECOME A WHOLE... FUNCTIONING... JOYFUL PERSON! <hr></blockquote>I know. Certainly my Plan A was very shaky at first...but it's been pretty solid for about 4 months. She's even recognized it (not as Plan A, obviously, but as serious improvements)I know I have to "give it up", it's just very hard...I'm way too left-brained! A Project Manager of all things!!! Jeez! even my career choice is against me here! ;-)Thanks Cali!

I guess I forgot a very important point (Thanks to a friend who emailed me and reminded me!)My W had another A 14 years ago. A short PA that ended when it was discovered.It was nasty, I didn't know anything about MB or anything like it. Basically forced her to end it, and she did, but we never worked thru it at all. Never talked about it again, I never brought it up in anger or anything.But I'm sure it affected me, and it affected how I looked at her and acted with her (I realize this now)She says I made her feel "small", and I guess I never really forgave, I thought I had, who knows? Consciously I did not hold it against her at all. I probably did, though subconsciously.She's very defensive about this, and obviously links them both. Says things like "It's always my fault, I'm always the one who has to end up apologizing, it always come back to this! I'm always the one who is wrong!"So clearly, it's a major obstacle to acceptance and admission of this current A....and for me, the very best reason why this time it either has to be "fixed" the right way, or no way...no half-measures this time around. It has hurt us way too much, for way too many years, having not addressed it back then.

Hi Space ~You've let her know that you still suspect right?Just let it drop. There's no point. You'll be draining her love bank, and simply frustrating yourself.Nothing has changed right?So why would you think that THIS time, or if you just said it in a different way, that THIS time, she'll admit it and stop it?You and I both know that she'll just lie, and be ticked, and you'll keep hurting and focusing on her...and on and on the cycle keeps turning.Just leave it alone. My husband knew that I knew, I was divorcing him! Once I started accepting who he was, rather than trying to force him into being someone I wanted him to be, I didn't have to worry about wether or not he knew if I knew, etc. It wasn't important. I just nodded my head and made noncommittal noises to whatever he said - I really didn't care if he thought I believed him or not. You see, I wasn't focused on him - I was focused on me.

Spacecase;How did I do it? Actually my ex-H had a string of affairs, not just one, if that makes any difference. How did I do it? Like everyone else here is doing it. At some point I realized that he was going to do what he was going to do and I needed to take care of ME. Though I did not have the MB material, I essentially Plan A’d for a very long time. Some how through it all, I grew into a stronger person whom I really like. He stayed in his demented world. We separated in 1996, divorced in 1997.
The situation in my new marriage is different… he admits everything and is working like crazy on the relationship with me.I too think that a couple cannot go on with out the truth being place in the open. This is one of the points that I disagree with the Divorce Busting concepts. I believe that the WS opening up the BS and being radically honest about the affair(s) is a remarkable healing process for both the BS and the WS. As long as my ex-H could pretend he was someone he was not, our situation could not improve. In my previous marriage we had no ‘radical honesty’, far too much privacy. Essentially my ex-h was living a separate life that he liked to believe I knew nothing about. He even had all of his mail and his financial papers at his mom’s house so that I could not see them. In my current marriage, since d-day, we practice radical honesty and no privacy. It’s a wonderful, liberating approach to life. My current H is a totally different kind of man. He did some pretty stupid things early on in our relationship, but he takes full responsibility for them.
I've read that this is indeed, sometimes the case; it just seems like so many of the In my current marriage we follow the MB concepts very closely.

My husband sounds like your wife.He has lied and denied every detail of his affair--until I discovered the truth on my own. My questions were met with lies (Did you have sex with her? Did you plan to move in with her? Did you plan to divorce me for her?) When I did get the truths--on my own--and faced my husband with them, he responded with rage and anger.He will not admit to anything. He will not tell me anything.The only proof I have is the year's worth of IM that was recorded on his computer, a pair of panties, a few photographs, and one drunken jovial confession to "having a older woman."Not only will he not talk about it, he will not read books, go to counseling, or even read my posts here.He has thrown out every artifact concerning the affair--his bathrobe, the blanket on the bed that they had sex on, her photographs, her letters. He tore up all papers concerning her and flushed them down the toilet.He will not speak about her. All he will say is that she was nothing special, he didn't love her (he told her he did a jillion times) but she didn't make him crazy like I did.Yet, withdrawal from her was horrible for him. And they maintained internet contact for a while after the affair, and while he did, he was extremely hostile towards me.The whole time he was seeing her, he professed that he did love me, but we "had too many problems." While we were separated, he called many times and asked me to return to him, telling me that he wanted the marriage and was willing to work on it.However, his idea of "work" is to completely bury the fact that he had an affair in the backyard. In essence, I was to do the work. If I was nice to him and treated him like a king, then he was happy, and then we could all be happy.When I bring up his infidelity, he becomes angry. He did not disclose his e-mail address to me. He continued to party and look at porn for a while--I drew the line right there, and after a year or so, he finally got the hint that I was not going to stay with him if he kept behaving like that.No "recovery program" was in order for us. Recovery program was for me to just "get over it."No, it's not fair. I know.We have our days, but I keep plodding along. Usually he's a very nice man these days--still a workaholic and still has trouble treating me with affection. But it's tolerable.I guess every marriage is different, just like every person is different. You just need to feel her out and avoid making her mad (by bringing up her mistakes) if that is what it will take.Lame advice, I know.

BR, you said: <blockquote>quote:<hr> Once I started accepting who he was, rather than trying to force him into being someone I wanted him to be, I didn't have to worry about wether or not he knew if I knew, etc. It wasn't important. I just nodded my head and made noncommittal noises to whatever he said - I really didn't care if he thought I believed him or not. You see, I wasn't focused on him - I was focused on me.
<hr></blockquote>OK, I understand...how does this lead to recovery?
Or how did it then evolve into recovery for you?CAN you really recover without some degree of confession and remorse? Some degree of "new rules" (MB principles)? Is it a real recovery? Is it a M built on something more solid than it was before?

BZ,It sounds to me like you have just stayed in a bad M? Sure, I don't know the whole picture, but it would appear from your short description that you are just setting yourself up for more pain forever. If no "enlightenment" occurs, if no changes are made, if no realization/admission of wrongdoing happens...you're just pretending it's OK, aren't you? Aren't you giving up on many of your ENs? Won't YOU be susceptible to "wander"?Sure, we all choose what we can/are willing to live with (as I did for many years), and many of us are OK with it, I just can't see myself doing it again after this A, and especially after learning all I've learned about how it could be better, and about good Rs, and solid Ms.

I thought I'd re-post the original "Scenario" since I added some stuff I'd forgotten, and has come out in the thread.Scenario:
• W had a short EA/PA with gym instructor 14 years ago
• I “forced” the end of that A, we never dealt with it; why, how, changes, etc.
• I never brought it up in anger or in any other way
• Subconsciously, I believe, I probably did hold it against her for all these years
• She says “you made me feel small”, and she’s probably right. My respect for her diminished.
• We never dealt with it, I was never conscious of the damage it did; this was a big mistake for us. We’ve probably been paying for it all these years in many ways.
• EA discovered 8 months ago, going on since approx 11/01
• My initial reaction was crazy, screaming, threat to throw her out, all the no-no stuff.
• Begging, pleading, negotiating; you know the routine
• 2 months of fights, arguments, accusations, all the nasty blue-meanie stuff
• At about 2 months, discovered “Divorce Remedy”, MB shortly thereafter, started putting into practice.
• Probably doing a “good” Plan A since about month 4 after DDay
• Lies, lies, lies, and only lies; about the A, the involvement, the contact, the reasons
• When confronted with evidence, hysterical screaming about her privacy, not possible to address evidence or what it means, or that it confirms the lies.
• WW does not acknowledge this has hurt me, us, M
• WW has not shown remorse of any kind
• WW feels she “has done nothing wrong”
• WW feels it is her “right” to have this R, and that I have no right to ask or know about it
• WW does not see that A and contact have to end
• WW does not see that the lies have to stop
• WW does not see that we need to deal with this
• WW does not acknowledge there is a “secret second life”
• WW has said that she wants M to continue and to improve
• WW has made great strides in fulfilling BS’s ENs
• WW believes doing this “should be enough” to show her commitment to M and BS
• BS has acknowledged and shown remorse for not fulfilling ENs
• BS has made great strides in fulfilling WW’s ENs
• BS has Plan A’d his b--- off
• BS has LB’d quite a bit at the beginning, brought under control
• BS and WW have been to IC and joint MC, WW has walked out of MC every time the lies are exposed
• BS has expressed desire to re-build, indicated patience will not last forever, offered to help WW in every way possible, asked for commitment to a “program” (hopefully Harley)
• WW does not want to talk about R, plan, issues
• WW does talk of the future, all the time
• WW has lied in the same way to her family, sister, close friends, etc.
• WW does not respond to or comment about BS’s letters, articles, booksOK, “old-timers”, what is the Harley formula for this one?
This in not a test, I have tried to stick to all MB principles, have prepared myself for D, or Plan B, what do I do?!?!?!?!?!

SC:"but I'm afraid she's in the "spying on her is worse that anything SHE's done, even if you've proven the lies"This is so darned familiar! I think this kind of reaction is probably my best gas gauge for determining just where my W is regarding "recovery." Definitely not there yet. I don't snoop anymore, but I bet I'd get a modest angry response if I did. I think she's getting more "prepared" for my need for radical honesty, too. So progress is evident. SC, use that kind of reaction to your probing (without LBing if possible) as a means of determining where she's at, if she won't come out and tell you. It's amazing just how predictable this behavior truly is.

SC:Let us know how things go between you after her session with S.H. (today, right?).persevere

<blockquote>quote:<hr>CAN you really recover without some degree of confession and remorse? Some degree of "new rules" (MB principles)? Is it a real recovery? Is it a M built on something more solid than it was before? <hr></blockquote>I have been struggling with this too, Spacecase. And this is where I am and what he has said to me: "Why must it be in MY (BS)time?" "I (FWH) am not going to do this the same way you (BS)."So I am focusing on me and FWH sees this. I am trusting in God and that he will take care of me and my marriage. I have placed my H in His hands, because He is the only one who can work in my H's life.I think that's what BR means by acceptance and expectations. When we give up the need for it to be done the way we THINK it should and, in the TIME we think it should and, HOW it should and focus our energies where WE have the CONTROL--OURSELVES, YOU will feel more peace and I BELIEVE will see true MIRACLES occur.Cali

Cali:Very well said. I agree. I may never get my W to accept MB principles, so I'll have to decide whether our recovery, when it starts, is sufficient to avoid another A, or any other problem within our M repeating itself.I think I'm starting to see signs that my W is truly thinking about HER role in our M problems, without blaming me for everything. She's doing this separate from the no contact problem, probably because she feels she's truly breaking it off with OM in her way. Which leaves me to determine for myself at some point, whether the A has been closed to my satisfaction. AND, whether we can/are addressing our M problems sufficiently to insure they don't recur.Take care,

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
...SC, use that kind of reaction to your probing (without LBing if possible) as a means of determining where she's at, if she won't come out and tell you. It's amazing just how predictable this behavior truly is.<hr></blockquote>You mean to subtly probe her? Like maybe ask nicely if she's spoken with OM or something like that?
Or maybe something less pointed; like would you let me see you cell statement?I did not catch your drift, 2Long. Is the idea to gauge her changing (or not) reaction to this type of openess?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
SC:Let us know how things go between you after her session with S.H. (today, right?).persevere<hr></blockquote>Well, the good news is, she said she liked it. That she prefers to counsel with a man...which was interesting; I would never have predicted that.She said she liked it, that Steve was very nice, and funny. And that he told her he had another session with me tomorrow and he suggested we then schedule a joint session. And she didn't object, so maybe we're going to get somewhere...I'll see what Steve has to say to me tomorrow.[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Cali:
I have been struggling with this too, Spacecase. And this is where I am and what he has said to me: "Why must it be in MY (BS)time?" "I (FWH) am not going to do this the same way you (BS)."So I am focusing on me and FWH sees this. I am trusting in God and that he will take care of me and my marriage. I have placed my H in His hands, because He is the only one who can work in my H's life.I think that's what BR means by acceptance and expectations. When we give up the need for it to be done the way we THINK it should and, in the TIME we think it should and, HOW it should and focus our energies where WE have the CONTROL--OURSELVES, YOU will feel more peace and I BELIEVE will see true MIRACLES occur.Cali<hr></blockquote>I guess you have more faith than I...As I've read and learned about all this (Rs, Ms, As) I have seen, for the first time in many cases, many many things that are wrong with my M. Wrong with me and the way I do things, wrong with my W and the way she does things, and wrong in the way we react or approach something...and I guess I've come to feel that I would need SOME changes to take place, in a conscious and deliberate fashion, before I'd be willing to just accept and move on.Now I don't mean we have to create a "by the MB book" M, but I'd like to at least see some acceptance on both our parts that some of it is good and will prevent more damage in the future, and to implement at least SOME of it. Or maybe just to reach an agreement that we both have issues we need to deal with, and willingness to hear, see and undestandand each others' and work on them. That the R has issues it needs to take care of, and the committment to do that, to work on that.Maybe then I'd feel more comfortable moving forward as a M. As we stand right now, I feel we're in the air. I don't know if we're headed towards recovery or divorce, so I'd at least like to see some concrete desire, willingness to move in either direction, and I guess I'm looking for concrete signals that will point to that...whichever way it goes.Is this unreasonable? I'll tell you, I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I will accept that it's OK for my W to have parts of her life and Rs that I do not know about, cannot know about...I could live without TOTAL radical honesty, but not with that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I feel we're in the air. I don't know if we're headed towards recovery or divorce, so I'd at least like to see some concrete desire, willingness to move in either direction, and I guess I'm looking for concrete signals that will point to that...whichever way it goes. <hr></blockquote>I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THIS!!! I wrote post after post about "limboland." What it boiled down to was that I was making it about ME and what I needed WHEN I NEEDED IT. Nobody's saying accept this FOREVER... but maybe your test is patience... and can you truly submit to God's Will in your life?This isn't something that I learned. BINGO!--Lesson over. This is something that I have to 'relearn' daily... this is something I have to pray about constantly. This is something I am tested on again and again......but do I give up because it is a struggle? because it's not going MY way? Spacecase, I have seen too many miracles in my life NOT to have faith.Cali

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
Cali:Very well said. I agree. I may never get my W to accept MB principles, so I'll have to decide whether our recovery, when it starts, is sufficient to avoid another A, or any other problem within our M repeating itself.I think I'm starting to see signs that my W is truly thinking about HER role in our M problems, without blaming me for everything. She's doing this separate from the no contact problem, probably because she feels she's truly breaking it off with OM in her way. Which leaves me to determine for myself at some point, whether the A has been closed to my satisfaction. AND, whether we can/are addressing our M problems sufficiently to insure they don't recur.Take care,<hr></blockquote>I think this is exactly what I am looking for. A reasonably good level of acceptance of change, honesty, etc. so I can feel like we're not likely to commit the same mistakes again. The more the better, but at least enough to feel comfortable.

Cali,
You said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr> ...but do I give up because it is a struggle? because it's not going MY way? Spacecase, I have seen too many miracles in my life NOT to have faith. <hr></blockquote>No, I'm not going to give up, not yet anyway.
I'm just looking to find a place where I'm confortable that we are addressing the toughest (or most damaging) things in a reasonable way.I will have to work on the faith part...! Maybe I'll get "faith" when I see some positive forward movement....thanks Cali!

SC:"You mean to subtly probe her? Like maybe ask nicely if she's spoken with OM or something like that?
Or maybe something less pointed; like would you let me see you cell statement?"Yeah, sort of. I think I mean that, as communication improves, it will be harder for her to hide how she feels about her M, and certainly harder for her to hide her secret life with OM (if it continues) without you being able to tell there's something hidden or wrong.I wouldn't ask to see the cell phone statement. In my case, I never have. I've only looked when it was opened and was in the stack of mail. I got REALLY tempted after D-day 2 when it arrived in the mail while she was still out of town. Saw it sitting on the table for about 4 days, unopened, and resisted the temptation to open it myself. And I have no idea whether it would be a LB at this point for me to ask my W to see her receipts. But since we've been communicating better, I haven't even had the urge to check these in over a month. It's a good feeling, and even though I still feel we're very much "in limboland" as to whether our M will survive or not, I'm a lot more optimistic about the future (whatever it brings).

[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] BrambleRose post Cali

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
SC:...Yeah, sort of. I think I mean that, as communication improves, it will be harder for her to hide how she feels about her M, and certainly harder for her to hide her secret life with OM (if it continues) without you being able to tell there's something hidden or wrong.
<hr></blockquote>Well, in my case I KNOW she's communicating and hiding, so I don't really have to do much to probe for that. What I'd be interested in would be to see an end (or considerable slowdown) of communications, secrets, etc.
Signs, primarliy by her actions, that she's letting go, and that she's more willing to not hide things, that she's willing to "open up" while we move towards No Contact, the end, whatever. Signs of withdrawl, seeking my support during it, that kind of thing.Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think.
I mean, she knows I think she's still in touch. Whether she thinks I don't notice her little hidden things or not, I'm not sure. She doesn't ask and I don't say anything.
But a gesture like, "look, here's my cell bill", or "these are the calling cards I used, take them", or "this is the PO Box I was using, here's the cancellation notice" would go a long way towards re-establishing trust and credibility. Maybe not totally, but it'd be a step forward.

SC:See? I can always count on you to ask me the tough questions! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Keeps me on my toes and thinking (I know... ...with what???)."What I'd be interested in would be to see an end (or considerable slowdown) of communications, secrets, etc.
Signs, primarliy by her actions, that she's letting go, and that she's more willing to not hide things, that she's willing to "open up" while we move towards No Contact, the end, whatever."Were there "signs" when she DIDN'T go see him while she was in FL? Or do you suspect that she did after all?"Signs of withdrawl, seeking my support during it, that kind of thing."I think these will be obvious, when they occur. Like when my W called me from out in the field last week, saying "I've never broken up with anybody before" and waking up crying in the middle of the night, twice in the past 5 days. Closeness got a LOT better, too, at the same time. So, in general, I think the signs of W/D for my W were pretty obvious. They've slowed considerably (as per my recent thread, darn it), but that was disappointing to me mainly because I put aside my patience and got my hopes up to much and too fast. I'm backing off a bit now."Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think."Maybe it IS time to probe a bit, then. Probe up to the point of minor LBing, is what I would do. Then back off and wait. In some ways I think that when you're in this sort of stalemate position, you need to set the phaser on "stun" and see what happens, if anything. Then, maybe try a higher setting?"I mean, she knows I think she's still in touch."Because you told her? Or is she guessing?"Whether she thinks I don't notice her little hidden things or not, I'm not sure. She doesn't ask and I don't say anything."So maybe say something. Or encourage her to ask. Again, treading softly. (ain't this fun? NOT)"But a gesture like, "look, here's my cell bill", or "these are the calling cards I used, take them", or "this is the PO Box I was using, here's the cancellation notice" would go a long way towards re-establishing trust and credibility. Maybe not totally, but it'd be a step forward."I still haven't gotten anything like this from my W. I wish she'd tell me she's having her coworker (the one that knows about the A) handle ALL communication with OM from now on. But she hasn't offered that, yet. I'm fresher out of D-day than you, though. But I don't think that I'll need to see what's being said between them (the "how are you doing, you poor [censored]/bimbette" kinds of remarks) besides the professional dialog. I think we can get to no contact between us and the Cs without that. OR, I'll be ready for DV (but with time, I think that's less likely [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). You know, I think it's becoming clearer to me in general that we simply haven't seriously done more than scratch the surface of the problems with our M, and that we CAN'T even begin until we've brutally mangled that elephant. I think it will be clearer to my W in the not-to-distant future, too (gawd, I sure hope so!). It's just becoming more obvious that this limbo isn't getting us anywhere fast.At our last MC session last week, I said that I'd be willing to give my W a DV if this M is too confining for her. Our MC asked me what made me think that was a good idea? And, did I think I really learned anything at this point that would lead me to believe that DV NOW would solve our M problems? Good, tough questions. And the answer is, for me: No, I'm not ready to blow this M apart. I would stand a good chance of repeating the same mistakes with someone else if I quit now. So, I need to keep being patient and loving with my W and wait for her to kill that elephant herself (or maybe support the end of the rifle barrel while I pull the trigger). Then we can work on our problems. And THEN, we can decide whether to stay M'd or "move on." (picturing lone riders heading off into the sunset... ...not). [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Hope this helps, rather than adds to the confusion! (at least I'm not recommending that we line our WSs up along a fence to...)

2Long,
It's a challenge! Remember this, though; In my case, my WW SAYS it's over, it's BEEN over, when I know it's not. I know, I have access to her cell records, and other stuff. K?
So, it's a delicate balancing act she's trying to pull off here. IF she says anything that indicates it WAS NOT over, and NOW IS, then she's caught (she's been saying it's over for weeks and weeks). If she now says it's not over, even worse.
In addition, she is NOT willing to talk about it AT ALL. Not a word, BIG LB if I ask...I'm talkin' major fireworks kinda' stuff. So I can't ask about it. Zip, zero, zilch.
So even addressing say, withdrawl, just get me blasted; "It's over, get over it, nothing else to say!".
So she's painted herself into a corner, and I'd like to find a way for her to "un-paint" it. I mean at some point I'm trying to get her to undestand that I'm OK with this, it's OK to feel bad about withdrawl, it's OK, really OK to talk about it, no hard feelings, no resentment, let's just move on....rebuild. But I can't do any of that while it's still going on, while she doesn't talk about it, while I can't ask...see my point? <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
Were there "signs" when she DIDN'T go see him while she was in FL? Or do you suspect that she did after all?<hr></blockquote>I have no idea. I did not get any confirmation that she did or didn't. And I could NOT tell when she came back. Not a clue... <blockquote>quote:<hr>
"Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think."Maybe it IS time to probe a bit, then. Probe up to the point of minor LBing, is what I would do. Then back off and wait. In some ways I think that when you're in this sort of stalemate position, you need to set the phaser on "stun" and see what happens, if anything. Then, maybe try a higher setting?<hr></blockquote>Like how? <blockquote>quote:<hr>"I mean, she knows I think she's still in touch."Because you told her? Or is she guessing?<hr></blockquote>Oh, I've said it, written it; there's no question in her mind that I believe it's still going on, and that I will continue to think that until she proves/demonstrates otherwise. TOO many lies, for TOO long...ZERO trust in her word. Concrete proof/action...not words. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Whether she thinks I don't notice her little hidden things or not, I'm not sure. She doesn't ask and I don't say anything."So maybe say something. Or encourage her to ask. Again, treading softly. (ain't this fun? NOT)<hr></blockquote>I guess you're right. It's just that it's an LB, and I'm tired of fireworks! But I know I have to. Maybe I'll run this by Steve tomorrow...see what he suggests. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"But a gesture like, "look, here's my cell bill", or "these are the calling cards I used, take them", or "this is the PO Box I was using, here's the cancellation notice" would go a long way towards re-establishing trust and credibility. Maybe not totally, but it'd be a step forward."I still haven't gotten anything like this from my W. I wish she'd tell me she's having her coworker (the one that knows about the A) handle ALL communication with OM from now on. But she hasn't offered that, yet. I'm fresher out of D-day than you, though. But I don't think that I'll need to see what's being said between them (the "how are you doing, you poor [censored]/bimbette" kinds of remarks) besides the professional dialog. I think we can get to no contact between us and the Cs without that. OR, I'll be ready for DV (but with time, I think that's less likely [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). <hr></blockquote> I've thought it would be easier for her to just hand over stuff like that, instead of having to sit down and say "you were right, I admit it..." whatever. Dontcha' think? <blockquote>quote:<hr>You know, I think it's becoming clearer to me in general that we simply haven't seriously done more than scratch the surface of the problems with our M, and that we CAN'T even begin until we've brutally mangled that elephant. I think it will be clearer to my W in the not-to-distant future, too (gawd, I sure hope so!). It's just becoming more obvious that this limbo isn't getting us anywhere fast.<hr></blockquote>Agreed. I mean, there's a thousand things we have to deal with, but we can't touch any of them until the limbo-stage is over. I mean what credibility would any of it have right now, while we all know there are still lies, deceit, etc.
Nothing! <blockquote>quote:<hr>At our last MC session last week, I said that I'd be willing to give my W a DV if this M is too confining for her. Our MC asked me what made me think that was a good idea? And, did I think I really learned anything at this point that would lead me to believe that DV NOW would solve our M problems? Good, tough questions. And the answer is, for me: No, I'm not ready to blow this M apart. I would stand a good chance of repeating the same mistakes with someone else if I quit now. So, I need to keep being patient and loving with my W and wait for her to kill that elephant herself (or maybe support the end of the rifle barrel while I pull the trigger). Then we can work on our problems. And THEN, we can decide whether to stay M'd or "move on." (picturing lone riders heading off into the sunset... ...not). [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote> Same here. I'm OK, I'll make it either way, I know that now. My Plan B is ready to be implemented in 24 hours if/when necessary, DV too.But I don't want to do it unless I have to. I want to give it EVERY possible chance, and I know I have fewer things to deal with than she does, so I'm willing to cut her more slack than might otherwise be called for. Period. End of story.
Wuss? maybe. Doormat? maybe....but I want to give it every chance I can. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Hope this helps, rather than adds to the confusion! (at least I'm not recommending that we line our WSs up along a fence to...)<hr></blockquote>Was that a crack-up or what!?!?!?! I swear I almost hit "send" to a MAJOR flame in that guy's direction! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
I didn't because it was your thread.

I sent this letter to my W on 4/19 after an IC session where the conclusion was; you have to tell her what you think, let her know this is not going to last forever, etc. To address the doormat issue/syndrome. <blockquote>quote:<hr> I cannot help but feel that your relationship is not over and I would really like to talk about it...I’ve been patient, and I'll continue to be patient, but I feel that that won't last forever. I would like you to understand that I don't know when my patience will end, or when my love for you will diminish to the point where I won’t want to; I have been patient because I love you, and I want our marriage to work, I understand how hard this is for you, and that it takes time. But I’m afraid that if it takes too much more time, it may be too late for us.It would be fabulous for our marriage if you work really, really hard on quitting ALL contact with the other man, and all the other aspects of your “secret second life”, and I would really appreciate your talking to me about it...I know that this is very hard for you, that there’s an emotional attachment that can’t be broken easily. I understand emotional affairs quite well now, and I know they are just as destructive as physical affairs, but I am here to help. I really am, and I think I can help you…if you’ll let me.Part of what I feel is that you have created a separate life without me outside of our home. I no longer feel like I’m part of your life, part of your plans, part of anything except the guy who’s at home and with things related to the children. I feel like we’re friends and parenting partners more than we are true husband and wife partners. Don’t get me wrong; things at home have been great; I think we both have worked on it, and we both see it and appreciate it. I certainly do. I want to have a wonderful, connecting, fulfilling marriage again, but I can only do so much to make it happen by myself.I cannot ask you to do anything, will not try to force you to do anything, but at the same time, I feel I cannot allow myself to be disrespected to this level much longer and continue to be genuine and honest about trying hard to fix our marriage. A few months ago I was doing what I was doing out of fear, but now I know that I will be OK whether we make it or not, so I want us to find a way to make it because I love you and want you, not because I fear losing you. And nothing would be better than for us to be working together, helping each other out, supporting each other and understanding each other as we go through this difficult time.Trust should begin to be re-established between us, and the basic rule for that should be that both of us should think about what we say and do, and if we wouldn’t do it or say it with the other one standing right next to us, it’s probably disrespectful and not a good thing. I know this will not happen overnight, but we should try to start it.We should to get to a point where we are both working together for our marriage, where we can discuss and agree on certain goals and steps we will be working to reach together; and where we both support each other in that pursuit, and in overcoming our individual personal obstacles.I have found many sources of support and information which have helped me, and I’ll be happy to share those with you because I think they’ll help you as well. In fact, there are women who have been/are in your same situation who would be happy to communicate with you and help you through this, and I’ll be happy to connect you to them. I have found much support and good advice, and much of what you see me doing comes from that.I love you, I wish for us to be the best that we can be, and I wish for us to be that together…like we once dreamed it would be…before we let life get in the way…I truly love you. I truly want us to find a way to make our marriage work for both of us. <hr></blockquote>2 things:
-Was that a mistake?-Can anyone venture to guess why my W HAS NOT SAID A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THIS LETTER TO ME?

SC:"So even addressing say, withdrawl, just get me blasted; "It's over, get over it, nothing else to say!".Hm... Ask S.H. about this, but: What I did when I got tired of my W insisting at our MC sessions that she should be able to be friends with Rat Meat was to tell her, in no uncertain terms, that "I'm okay. I can see myself as a content single dad. I'll have to sell the house (and we'd split the assets). I won't support your goals for the future if we're DVd. I won't tolerate OM in any part of our future whatsoever, so CHOOSE." Now, that obviously hasn't changed our M overnight, but it put my cards on the table. I think my W even realizes there's a time limit on my patience. But I'm going to continue being patient for a while longer because of all the things I said on my thread, and frankly because our M is worth it (and I haven't done "enough" yet, per our MC's questions to me). Maybe your W needs to know more bluntly what the consequences are? But then you have to weigh the LB level and the possibility she may run screaming from the room... Your sitch. Your call."So she's painted herself into a corner, and I'd like to find a way for her to "un-paint" it."A friend once extrapolated that saying to "I've painted myself into a corner, and now it's time to paint myself." Maybe you need to let your W paint herself and look in a mirror and see just how ridiculous she looks painted. I.e., maybe she needs to crash and burn a bit? I dunno. And I'm not one to coment, I guess, because I don't like to see my W in pain. I ALWAYS try to comfort her. And it usually helps, in the long run (recommendations to shoot her notwithstanding).

"I mean at some point I'm trying to get her to undestand that I'm OK with this, it's OK to feel bad about withdrawl, it's OK, really OK to talk about it, no hard feelings, no resentment, let's just move on....rebuild. But I can't do any of that while it's still going on, while she doesn't talk about it, while I can't ask...see my point?"Yes. And I've been there. Heck, I'm still there. It's hard for me to tell her what I'm feeling about her contact, because it's so obvious to me what she SHOULD, and easily COULD do. 3 nights in a row, now, I avoided a direct question "what are you thinking?" by saying "I don't want to talk about it". Heck, that's not ME. I've got to get past doing that. Especially when I've been the one pushing radical honesty so hard."I have no idea. I did not get any confirmation that she did or didn't. And I could NOT tell when she came back. Not a clue..."She must be a good actress. My W was a "good enough" actress to fool me before D-day, but I don't think she is now. I could be wrong, I suppose, but I don't think so.
"quote:
"Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think."Maybe it IS time to probe a bit, then. Probe up to the point of minor LBing, is what I would do. Then back off and wait. In some ways I think that when you're in this sort of stalemate position, you need to set the phaser on "stun" and see what happens, if anything. Then, maybe try a higher setting?
------------------------------------------------------------------------Like how?"Another tough question! Guess there's no way to do this without LBing, see how bad you just LB'd, and back off to see if she thinks a bit. Kind of like survival training. You pick a leaf, put it in your mouth, and chew a bit without swallowing. If it burns, or makes your tongue numb, it might just be poisonous. If it doesn't hurt, swallow a small bite and see if you get sick or die. Don't eat any more if you get sick or die..."Oh, I've said it, written it; there's no question in her mind that I believe it's still going on, and that I will continue to think that until she proves/demonstrates otherwise. TOO many lies, for TOO long...ZERO trust in her word. Concrete proof/action...not words."This is pretty clear.
"I guess you're right. It's just that it's an LB, and I'm tired of fireworks! But I know I have to. Maybe I'll run this by Steve tomorrow...see what he suggests."Thank goodness! But remember, I'm just a poor country scientist lost in the big city. I'm no professional person-fixer!"I've thought it would be easier for her to just hand over stuff like that, instead of having to sit down and say "you were right, I admit it..." whatever. Dontcha' think?"I guess. In the end, it's the same thing, right? Unless she admits it and is STILL hiding something..."I mean, there's a thousand things we have to deal with, but we can't touch any of them until the limbo-stage is over. I mean what credibility would any of it have right now, while we all know there are still lies, deceit, etc.
Nothing!"True. And your (and my) patience will wear too thin at some point and you'll have to give up. And I may get to the point that I can truthfully answer our MC's questions by saying that "yes, I've learned enough to be able to start over, and I've tried enough to give my W plenty of chances to 'come around', but the truth is our M ISN'T right for either of us". I hope it never comes to that, but I can't know at this point."I'm OK, I'll make it either way, I know that now. My Plan B is ready to be implemented in 24 hours if/when necessary, DV too."There you go. (Isn't that a Texas phrase?). Pulls a good vacuum (that's a 2long phrase = it sucks), but at least you'll be okay no matter what."But I don't want to do it unless I have to. I want to give it EVERY possible chance, and I know I have fewer things to deal with than she does, so I'm willing to cut her more slack than might otherwise be called for. Period. End of story.
Wuss? maybe. Doormat? maybe....but I want to give it every chance I can."And, like my sitch, at least your W can't bring home any "other surprises" like an STD or a new child... Not that a PA is any more/less insidious than an EA. I guess it's just a bit easier if the sitch isn't as complicated as it COULD be. Make sense?"I swear I almost hit "send" to a MAJOR flame in that guy's direction!
I didn't because it was your thread."I truly wish you had/(would). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

SC:"2 things:
-Was that a mistake?"Hard to tell. I think in my case it would be a mistake to send that kind of letter. Kind of like the reactions I've gotten when I've tried to "educate" my W. When I tell her about OTHER people's problems that I read about on this forum, I get good feedback at times, and I've never LB'd. Maybe you could talk about similar situations to your own with YOUR W?"-Can anyone venture to guess why my W HAS NOT SAID A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THIS LETTER TO ME?"Might be because she won't be educated.

Spacecase,You've gotten a lot of really terrific responses here.I will add something that might sound ... sexist. But it really is not.Remember the Mars and Venus books? You're solving problems - she is feeling things. You want obvious quick forward progress and proof that she's given up her EA. She is tentatively making little baby steps and is still using her EA as a crutch.Remember that most women tend to have more endurance for EVERYTHING then most men. There might be a part of her that is waiting for you to revert - she is waiting to see if all the things you've been fixing in yourself will unravel... And without several more LARGE doses of patience, that might just be what will happen.You are seeing far more progress in far less time than the average or even the majority of people who come to MB. And, in some ways, I think EA's, for women, are more difficult to let go of than for men.She is involved in an EA because of years of issues in your marriage - not blaming, just observing. The problems didn't start overnight, or a week ago, or even 14 years ago - the problems started before that first affair, and likely continued without acknowledgement until you started working on them recently. Just as they did not start overnight, you cannot fix them overnight, either. And perhaps the best advice I can give you is this: Don't try to fix your wife. You cannot. Fix you, and how you relate to her, your children, your other family, your pets, your friends ... when she sees that you are making LIFE ALTERING changes in YOU, and that you are no longer trying to change HER, she is more likely to recognize your efforts as sincere and lasting.The work of fixing a marriage broken by infidelity of any kind almost always falls on the shoulders of the person who did not stray. It sucks. It's not fair. But it is the way it is. You need to decide if you want your wife or a divorce. Then do what it is you need to do to achieve your choice. That's going to mean doing most of the work in restoring your marriage. As you've gathered, marriage is hard work - and this work will be some of your most difficult.My Plan A of well into 2 years worked for me. It didn't fix my marriage - but I know that I did what I needed to do for me, and that I did all that I could to save my marriage. I fixed ME.I wish you the best.

2Long;
1st of all, I have to tell you that I appreciate your responses, AND your humor. Makes this a much better place to be!
Thought I'd say it since I get very serious when I answer, and just don't have the humorous streak you do! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
SC: "So even addressing say, withdrawl, just gets me blasted; "It's over, get over it, nothing else to say!".Hm... Ask S.H. about this... <hr></blockquote>On my list...and a long one it's turned into! <blockquote>quote:<hr>"So she's painted herself into a corner, and I'd like to find a way for her to "un-paint" it."...Maybe you need to let your W paint herself and look in a mirror and see just how ridiculous she looks painted. I.e., maybe she needs to crash and burn a bit? <hr></blockquote>Yes. I'm afraid it might come to that, just hate the idea, and trying to find another way, ANY other way. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"I mean at some point I'm trying to get her to undestand that I'm OK with this... while it's still going on, while she doesn't talk about it, while I can't ask..."Yes. And I've been there. Heck, I'm still there. It's hard for me to tell her what I'm feeling about her contact, because it's so obvious to me what she SHOULD, and easily COULD do...Especially when I've been the one pushing radical honesty so hard.<hr></blockquote>Same as before. Trying to help her get to a place where we can talk...heck, I haven't even BROUGH UP, Radical Honesty yet... <blockquote>quote:<hr>"I have no idea. I did not get any confirmation that she did or didn't (Visit OM in FL). And I could NOT tell when she came back. Not a clue..."She must be a good actress. <hr></blockquote>Well, I've got her pretty well down, but one never knows when the tactics change. Gut feeling? she didn't go see him. Too risky, easy to get caught...but there sure were signs she WAS going before she left, so who knows? I'll find out though. (SC has an ace up his sleeve...when will he show it....?) Soon! <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think."Like how?"Another tough question! Guess there's no way to do this without LBing, see how bad you just LB'd, and back off to see if she thinks a bit. <hr></blockquote> Yeah. Another toughie for Steve to deal with! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Kind of like survival training. You pick a leaf, put it in your mouth, and chew a bit without swallowing. If it burns, or makes your tongue numb, it might just be poisonous. If it doesn't hurt, swallow a small bite and see if you get sick or die. Don't eat any more if you get sick or die...<hr></blockquote>Now that's good advice! But there's a rub: I've been burned so much, I carry a fire extinguisher. My tounge's so numb, I can hardly speak anymore (notice I type, I don't talk!). And after several small bites I've swallowed, I've run out of Pepto-Bismol, and I'm afraid it's not as effective as it was at first. Heck, I've even got a coffin sitting in the garage just in case!!! AND I made sure the life insurance was paid up!!! ;-) <blockquote>quote:<hr>"I've thought it would be easier for her to just hand over stuff like that, instead of having to sit down and say "you were right, I admit it..." whatever. Dontcha' think?"I guess. In the end, it's the same thing, right? Unless she admits it and is STILL hiding something...<hr></blockquote>DON'T EVEN go there! Too much to bear...you like to twist the knife, dontcha'? And that's before I've figured out how I'm going to "heal" from the first wound! ;-) <blockquote>quote:<hr>"I'm OK, I'll make it either way, I know that now. My Plan B is ready to be implemented in 24 hours if/when necessary, DV too."There you go. (Isn't that a Texas phrase?). Pulls a good vacuum (that's a 2long phrase = it sucks), but at least you'll be okay no matter what.<hr></blockquote>That's Texas, alright! <blockquote>quote:<hr>And, like my sitch, at least your W can't bring home any "other surprises" like an STD or a new child... Not that a PA is any more/less insidious than an EA. I guess it's just a bit easier if the sitch isn't as complicated as it COULD be. Make sense?<hr></blockquote>Please, 2Long, this is complicated enough! Jeez...VD or a baby...I'd go straight to the coffin, no stopping at GO...no collecting nuthin'! <blockquote>quote:<hr>"I swear I almost hit "send" to a MAJOR flame in that guy's direction!
I didn't because it was your thread."I truly wish you had/(would). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote>I still might...just let him try THAT again! ;-)[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

SC: "I still might...just let him try THAT again! ;-)"Do!! Do!!He's not the only one out there, either. I've just been getting a bit tired of the recommendations that forget there are two sides to every one of these situations on this forum (even 4, if OP are included), and so long as the purpose of posting is to rebuild a M, shouldn't we be considerate of all these people involved? ...well, I still wouldn't mind a whole lot if that asteroid were to strike the OM's home town one of these nights...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 2long:
SC:"2 things:
-Was that a mistake?"Hard to tell. I think in my case it would be a mistake to send that kind of letter. Kind of like the reactions I've gotten when I've tried to "educate" my W. When I tell her about OTHER people's problems that I read about on this forum, I get good feedback at times, and I've never LB'd. Maybe you could talk about similar situations to your own with YOUR W?"-Can anyone venture to guess why my W HAS NOT SAID A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THIS LETTER TO ME?"Might be because she won't be educated.<hr></blockquote>Well, I did think about it quite a bit before sending it, but I figured it was better to just say it, and use a letter so as to make it a little more palatable, and it did turn out OK. It was that day I had the long talk with her, and she responded so well I was on the board here jumpin' for joy!? 'member?I know she won't get "educated", at least by me, at least not yet. But I think it's because she just can't refute anything I say, and she can't prove anything I ask, so she just avoids it...and she probably doesn't actually believe I will walk out...you're looking at MR PATIENCE, here...I've let so many things go for so long...it's pathetic!

SC:It sounds like she DID read the letter, then.I had sent a scathing letter to my W, with running commentary on everything she said to OM in early March and his reply to her, because she didn't agree it was anything I should be worried about... I thought about it for a while, then went into her "in" box and deleted the message. She said she wouldn't have read it anyway. Hm. I'll never know, but I'm glad I deleted it, because it was hurtful (and was intended to be, because THAT'S how I reacted when I felt hurt all through these past 12 years).

This is Terrific, Terri! (no pun intended!) <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by terri:
I will add something that might sound ... sexist. But it really is not.Remember the Mars and Venus books? You're solving problems - she is feeling things. You want obvious quick forward progress and proof that she's given up her EA. She is tentatively making little baby steps and is still using her EA as a crutch.<hr></blockquote>You are correct. I don't forget this, I just can't change the Martian that quick...or adjust the htinking...it feels like forever! <blockquote>quote:<hr>Remember that most women tend to have more endurance for EVERYTHING then most men.<hr></blockquote>Don't remind me; it's painful enough as it is ;-) <blockquote>quote:<hr>There might be a part of her that is waiting for you to revert - she is waiting to see if all the things you've been fixing in yourself will unravel... And without several more LARGE doses of patience, that might just be what will happen.<hr></blockquote>I think you are quite correct on this one. Definitely, and I have to remind myself of that more often. She has expressed this precise thought several times. <blockquote>quote:<hr>You are seeing far more progress in far less time than the average or even the majority of people who come to MB. And, in some ways, I think EA's, for women, are more difficult to let go of than for men.<hr></blockquote>Thank you for that! I hope you're right in the progress part...it sure feels like we're not moving at all!And yes, thanks to several FWWs here, I've learned a lot about women in EAs, and I'm much more understanding of the time and effort required to break free from them. (This is for you AS!) <blockquote>quote:<hr>She is involved in an EA because of years of issues in your marriage - not blaming, just observing. The problems didn't start overnight, or a week ago, or even 14 years ago - the problems started before that first affair, and likely continued without acknowledgement until you started working on them recently. Just as they did not start overnight, you cannot fix them overnight, either.<hr></blockquote> Indeed; it seems like every day I discover a new one, and sometimes it feels like it's too much, too impossible a goal to try to reach...makes it harder, but I'm still going at it! <blockquote>quote:<hr>And perhaps the best advice I can give you is this: Don't try to fix your wife. You cannot. Fix you, and how you relate to her, your children, your other family, your pets, your friends ... when she sees that you are making LIFE ALTERING changes in YOU, and that you are no longer trying to change HER, she is more likely to recognize your efforts as sincere and lasting.<hr></blockquote>I have to work harder at this. No question. <blockquote>quote:<hr>The work of fixing a marriage broken by infidelity of any kind almost always falls on the shoulders of the person who did not stray. It sucks. It's not fair. But it is the way it is. You need to decide if you want your wife or a divorce. Then do what it is you need to do to achieve your choice. That's going to mean doing most of the work in restoring your marriage. As you've gathered, marriage is hard work - and this work will be some of your most difficult.<hr></blockquote>Intellectually, I know this. Emotionally, it's such severe pain...I'm trying so hard! <blockquote>quote:<hr>My Plan A of well into 2 years worked for me. It didn't fix my marriage - but I know that I did what I needed to do for me, and that I did all that I could to save my marriage. I fixed ME.I wish you the best.<hr></blockquote>2 Years! I can't even imagine that!Thanks for your post. Very, very helpful and it gives me hope and strength. Thanks Terri!

<blockquote>quote:<hr> SC:
It sounds like she DID read the letter, then. <hr></blockquote>Oh, she read it alright. She just never acknowledged it or talked about it at all!I gave it to her after our talk that day, and basically the talk was the same content of the letter. She never responded to the parts about patience, and patience running out, or the OM, contact, etc.She only talked about working for our M, how much she loved me, and seeing the changes and appreciateing them. Not the "sensitive" subjects.[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>
BR, you said:quote:
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Once I started accepting who he was, rather than trying to force him into being someone I wanted him to be, I didn't have to worry about wether or not he knew if I knew, etc. It wasn't important. I just nodded my head and made noncommittal noises to whatever he said - I really didn't care if he thought I believed him or not. You see, I wasn't focused on him - I was focused on me.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------OK, I understand...how does this lead to recovery?
Or how did it then evolve into recovery for you?CAN you really recover without some degree of confession and remorse? Some degree of "new rules" (MB principles)? Is it a real recovery? Is it a M built on something more solid than it was before?<hr></blockquote>I am not in a recovery situation that does not contain confession and remorse. My husband is now completely open, very embarrassed, very remorseful and very much trying to carry his end of our marriage.But I did not get to this position by convincing him to change. It's like this. A marriage is made of 2 people. If 50% of the marriage is made up of ME, then doesn't it logically follow that since I can't change my spouse to improve the marriage, that I should change me? At least I can improve 50% of the marriage! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Not only that, but set aside the affair and the blame for a moment. Did you not do many things that hurt your wife and hurt your marriage? Regardless of what she did, don't you need to fix those things, don't you owe apologies and amends?Think back throughout your marriage. Do you like the person you were in your marriage? Who has the power to change that?I guarantee, if you want your marriage to improve, improving yourself is the only solution.So thats what I did. Along the way, it became clear that my husband was going to continue his affair(s) and that he wasn't interested in truely rebuilding. He quit counseling with SH when SH insisted that he move home and start practicing radical honesty.But the more I improved, and the closer to death his affair came, the better the marriage option looked. He began to have hope that maybe, just maybe, I had become someone that he could rescue our incredibly ugly situation with. You see, I'd fixed most of the things he complained about over our marriage - some of those things were very serious. I was the Queen of Disrespectful Judgements and Selfish Demands - and yet to hear me talk, I was a victim of his irresponsible, lazy, self-absorbed behavior our entire marriage.When I became someone he wanted in his life, then he decided to be someone that I wanted.That was when he came to me and said: Ok, I want our marriage, here is what I am willing to do if you'll stop the divorce. Now, the more i focus on doing MY part of the marriage, the more interested he is in loving me. It really really works. I've learned to admire him and not judge him. I've learned to let him live as he sees fit. By doing it, I achieved what I struggled to do by force unsuccessfully for YEARS. As long as I tried to force him to do what I thought he should, he wouldn't. When I started doing what I should, he started doing what he should.Funny how that works [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Spacecase,Bet you thought that I have forgotten my promise to respond?!?!? WEll I wrote this last night and the 'puter broke!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I managed to save it so though I am a day late and a dollar short, here's my 2 cents. Isn't that what a dollar is worth nowadays anyway!?!? LOL! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Here goes:
quote:
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3. You have shown admitted your know faults and working on making those changes.
4. You say you are plan Aing your butt off.
5. You have both met with an with IC/MC but without full cooperation from your W. Based on the above:1. You can't be in a M recovery until she is willing to participate. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Agreed; that is what I'm trying to get to...how?Response: You are there, she is not. In reality there is nothing more for you to do. Remember that U do not control her actions. The WS likes to remind the BS of this when it is to their advantage and unfortunately, the WS is right. However, this excuse though correct does have its benefits to the BS. In time, it has advantages. Here is where you need to exercise patience. In your case there are 2 As. You have some scarred history here to recover from. U do. You have read a lot. This is good now take the knowledge and turn it into wisdom by properly applying what you have learned. Realize this, even with your best efforts, M recovery is only 50% within your control. So work on your personal recovery. Pray for a calm heart and a clear mind. Get prepared for the fallout. Prepare a plan B and keep it in the back of your mind. Don't allow yourself to be swayed by her angry words. Recognize babble and stop listening to it. For me I told the WS: "you are babbling again, let me know when you are willing to speak in a language I can understand." Then I walked away. When I got stronger I learned to babble back. WS: I want you to go and get the D.
BS: Ok, go get the D. WS: The D work is too hard, go get the D.
BS: Ok, go get the D. WS: You don't love me.
BS: You are right, I loved another man, the one I married. Please go find him and ask him to come back, I want to give him a big kiss and tell him I love him & want him to come home.
WS: Yea, me too. 
quote:
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2. So work on your recovery. You have already begun, continue advancing with you and your family. This will leave her behind and she needs to see that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is exactly what I am trying to do. It may sound like I want to "get her on board" (which I do), but it is very much a desire and a wish, as a side-effect of my Plan A. I am quite on-board with the idea that Plan A and moving to recovery are for me first.Ideas are welcome... Response: Get new hobbies. Do more things with or for your home, family and individual children. Keep busy. Let her know that you are trying hard very hard to keep your family happy and together. Encourage her to do the same. Know that she will reject much of what you say and do. Let her know that sometimes she does frustrate you also. If she says why do you try so hard? Tell her you don't know, but when you figure it out, you will let her know. This may keep her coming back to you asking you more questions. This is good. Try to do things to make her thing of you and the children. Don't volunteer too many answers. Don't give full details or responses. The more she thinks of you and the children, the better your chances and the less time she is giving to the OM. This is KEY!quote:
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How that affects a female WS seems to vary. Women are very different from men at this point. More likely to give up all if pushed....why? I am not sure but women's limits are different from men. Still this is not an excuse to let you be the doormat. Women in this category also tend to push their loving men to their limits.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Interesting perspective. And I believe you're right; she'd probably be more likely to hold her position that I would, and she might just be willing to end the M before admitting she's done anything wrong. She may come to regret it, but it won't happen for years!Any ideas here? response: I am not real good at this one. I am a woman but that makes me even more cynical in regards to why women would leave their families for an A. I don't get it. The drive in a woman to stick with her family is quite strong in most women . For the ones that can abandon their families, I must say I am at a lost to understand them and also very very disappointed at their choices. So I defer this to the BS H's out there that have dealt with these types of women. If it was me, I'd disown them but you H's are much more loving than this short-tempered BS W. LOL!!!! quote:
quote:
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4. Tell us what your & your W's EN questionnaire scores were.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Not sure what you mean by "scores" but here are our top 5: (and I'm willing to expand on this if you'd like)
Mine -
Honesty & Openess
Admiration
Affection
Financial Support
Sexual FulfillmentHers -
Conversation
Sexual Fulfillment (I have no idea where this came from!)
Affection
Recreational Companionship
Financial Support response: Your list is fine. I meant the top 5. The interesting thing between both your lists are that yours are more giving and her's are more taking. Let's take a look at her list:1. Conversation: about what?
2. SF: taker mode here
3. Affection: to giver or taker or both?
4. Recreational Companionship: to give or take or both? Tennis lessons, golf lessons? Single/double or group sport?
5. Financial support: to give or take or both?I think she is being selfish in her list. quote:
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7. Remember there are no guarantees in this process. Just do the best you can. Be satisfied with your best.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I know; I am; I'm trying, but my nature is to not be satisfied (must be the Project Manager in me...man, I've been doing that for too long!) ;-)
response: I know this is not a question on this point but the project manager title just got me. I am struggling with this title @ work. Being a production type manager, I periodically need to speak with project managers, it just gets my goad when a PM (project manager) comes to see me and claims it is his/her job NOT to know anything, just stand there and direct traffic. Some don't even say that much. I don't have much respect for a PM that will not learn anything about the project they are suppose to be managing. Now what part of this PM stuff am I missing? I am not asking them to do the work, just understand the process so that we can all get our work done correctly and on time. 
quote:
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8. Refuse to be your W's doormat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I haven't been perhaps quite as good at this as I might. Probably because she was VERY effective in her extreme reactions to my discoveries, snooping, confronting the truth, and I may have backed off too much. Suggestions? Decide your boundaries, set them then inform your W. Easier said than done but well worth the effort. 
quote:
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9. Require all in the family to show value and respect for each other.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Interesting idea, would you expand on this?
(I mean we have a very well developed sense of right and wrong, respect, judeo-christian values in general, but perhaps we need something else?)response: Each member should know how to speak and interact with each other. Very basic stuff. Often lost by the WS while doing the A. Respect is a much hard word to give to the A than the word 'love'. Simple acts as: how we speak to each other and then do them. In the A, many a WS will act very childish:Ws (when confronted with d/d): Well you never loved me anyway.
BS: So that made the A ok?
WS: No, but you were busy all the time.
BS: So that made the A ok?
Ws: No. but we were just friends.
BS: So that made the A ok?BS: Look, stop with the excuses, let me know when you have a valid reason that we can discuss.
Ws: Ok. 
quote:
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11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Good, good. Do you mean let her know when I see that she's doing it, or recognize them to myself?Timelines that are acceptable to me? or realistic (her speed), or negotiated timelines?
response: Yes. But keep your responses short and sweet yet sincere. 
quote:
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13. Don't be afraid to give your W some work. That is essential to the healing process. Remember in the hospital, patients are told to rest but often therapy is given right away. So don't enable your W.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Good idea. Like what kinds of stuff?
response: I told my H that it was now his responsibility to earn back my trust. 
quote:
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But this is a start right? Take it from here spacecase.........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------whew! I didn't think I was going to make it through this! Back to you Orchid!Ok, how'd I do?
L.[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Orchid: Ok, how'd I do? <hr></blockquote>Fantastique ma cherie!I bet you're a lot of fun!Now I'M going to need a day to digest and respond...and I don't even have the Zyrtec excuse... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

BR;
Thanks for the follow-up. Very good feedback; I think I may be getting it now...still need some help here though. <blockquote>quote:<hr> It's like this. A marriage is made of 2 people. If 50% of the marriage is made up of ME, then doesn't it logically follow that since I can't change my spouse to improve the marriage, that I should change me? At least I can improve 50% of the marriage! <hr></blockquote> OK, I'm getting this....yes, I'm responsible for my 50%. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Not only that, but set aside the affair and the blame for a moment. Did you not do many things that hurt your wife and hurt your marriage? Regardless of what she did, don't you need to fix those things, don't you owe apologies and amends?<hr></blockquote>I did. I do. and I have.
I am fully aware of the many, many ways in which I hurt her, and our M. No question, no excuses, it's the truth. I've been working on as many of these as she's been willing to talk to me about, and many others I've discovered on my own. I am majorly cognizant of this, and I know it'll be a long road for me...but I've started down that road. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Think back throughout your marriage. Do you like the person you were in your marriage? Who has the power to change that?<hr></blockquote>No, and me-bee. <blockquote>quote:<hr>So thats what I did. Along the way, it became clear that my husband was going to continue his affair(s) and that he wasn't interested in truely rebuilding. He quit counseling with SH when SH insisted that he move home and start practicing radical honesty.<hr></blockquote>How'd you do with that? I mean what happened? How did you deal with it? Just kept Plan Aing? For how long? <blockquote>quote:<hr>But the more I improved, and the closer to death his affair came, the better the marriage option looked. He began to have hope that maybe, just maybe, I had become someone that he could rescue our incredibly ugly situation with.<hr></blockquote>How did you know this? How did he recognize that there was an "incredibly ugly situation"? <blockquote>quote:<hr>When I became someone he wanted in his life, then he decided to be someone that I wanted.
That was when he came to me and said: Ok, I want our marriage, here is what I am willing to do if you'll stop the divorce.<hr></blockquote>And what was he willing to do?OK, part of him decided you were what he wanted, but part of him was "pushed" to decide because of the Divorce? Or forced to make A decision, right?I mean Plan B, or Divorce proceedings do have a way to get them to move off the dime, right?
Isn't THAT part of the problem I have? She has no real reason to decide now, or quickly... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Now, the more i focus on doing MY part of the marriage, the more interested he is in loving me. It really really works. I've learned to admire him and not judge him. I've learned to let him live as he sees fit. By doing it, I achieved what I struggled to do by force unsuccessfully for YEARS. As long as I tried to force him to do what I thought he should, he wouldn't. When I started doing what I should, he started doing what he should.Funny how that works .<hr></blockquote>OK; yes, part of it is what you did, then he came around and decided he'd seen enough good so he wanted to be a part of that, right?Then, together, you both continued working on yourselves and the M. Was this when you implemented many/some/most of the MB principles, or was it before?I mean, at what point were you when he decided he was coming on-board the train?What had you both implemented up to there?
When did coming clean happen?
When did remorse happen?
When did accepting his responsibility for change happen? How?I feel like OK, I'm being real nice, and sensitive, and caring, and loving and all that, and I'm getting very little in return...and I keep hoping to see some reciprocity....does it just take forever? Does it take a "Jolt"? Threat? Plan B?....Divorce proceedings?[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

space ~I could answer all your questions, but I think you need to hear something else right now.You are headed in the wrong direction here -I know you are struggling to fix this, but consider this excerpt from my "Detachment with Love" thread:Why…?The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.What if….?What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have.

Thanks BR; I still have a lot to learn...a whole lifetime of putting those close to me first, of feeling responsible for them, of trying to save them from themselves...this is not easy for me at all. It goes completely against every instinct I have...

Re: So she's painted herself into a corner, and I'd like to find a way for her to "un-paint" it.
Perhaps you can ‘un-paint’ it for her. Tell her that do not need her to admit, deny or discuss any of this because it’s so obvious that there. She knows the truth just as you do (do not reveal your sources). If she starts going at you in anger, just walk away. You may even want to do think in writing so that she can read it when you are not there to yell at. After all, if you know the truth and have solid evidence you do not need for her to confirm it. And obviously trying to get her to admit it will get you now where.Then just continue work on YOU and your part of the marriage. It will take the patience and forgiveness to do this.

Orchid;A fine response, and together with Bramblerose's post, I think maybe I'm seeing the light. It's not easy to let go like that, so completely. And I think the other ingredient I'm missing is to clearly define and express my boundaries. I think knowing that those have been expressed and are acknowledged (at least), will help me detach. I somehow feel that this will allow me to more easily detach. I presume I will get some more guidance on this when I speak with Steve in about an hour.So here we go: <blockquote>quote:<hr> Response: You are there, she is not. In reality there is nothing more for you to do. Remember that U do not control her actions. The WS likes to remind the BS of this when it is to their advantage and unfortunately, the WS is right. However, this excuse though correct does have its benefits to the BS. In time, it has advantages.
Here is where you need to exercise patience. In your case there are 2 As. You have some scarred history here to recover from. U do. You have read a lot. This is good now take the knowledge and turn it into wisdom by properly applying what you have learned. Realize this, even with your best efforts, M recovery is only 50% within your control. So work on your personal recovery. Pray for a calm heart and a clear mind. Get prepared for the fallout. Prepare a plan B and keep it in the back of your mind.
Don't allow yourself to be swayed by her angry words. Recognize babble and stop listening to it. For me I told the WS: "you are babbling again, let me know when you are willing to speak in a language I can understand." Then I walked away. <hr></blockquote>I'm beginning to see that I cannot control or change her actions, and will work on that some more. Tell me about the "advantages" this has for the BS "in time".Yes, we do have 2 As to deal with. Wish it weren't so...the calm heart and clear mind will be very necessary, I hope they will come through for me...this is not easy for me at all.Yes; I need to not let her drag me into those emotional outbursts. I do that most of the time and it has been totally useless and negative. I have begun to learn how to "walk away" from these, and I will work harder on that. I'm going to memorize your phrase about the "babbling" and use it.Remember, though, that we are barely talking about this. And that has to change. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Response: Get new hobbies. Do more things with or for your home, family and individual children. Keep busy. Let her know that you are trying hard very hard to keep your family happy and together. Encourage her to do the same.
Know that she will reject much of what you say and do. Let her know that sometimes she does frustrate you also. If she says why do you try so hard? Tell her you don't know, but when you figure it out, you will let her know. This may keep her coming back to you asking you more questions. This is good.
Try to do things to make her thing of you and the children. Don't volunteer too many answers. Don't give full details or responses. The more she thinks of you and the children, the better your chances and the less time she is giving to the OM. This is KEY! <hr></blockquote>I am getting new things in my life. Started doing Bonsai with my son. Not having a job has also been a serious challenge during these times; I'm working very hard on that.
But I do need tostart doing more things for the family; I will do that and will let her know I'd like her to do the same. Good idea.And I know I've been far too forthcoming about what I'm thinking and doing. I need to stop that. It's been a misplaced sense of feeling I shouldn't lie or hide things, and in the also misguided hope that she will start seeing the things I feel she needs to see. <blockquote>quote:<hr> response: I am not real good at this one. I am a woman but that makes me even more cynical in regards to why women would leave their families for an A. I don't get it. The drive in a woman to stick with her family is quite strong in most women . For the ones that can abandon their families, I must say I am at a lost to understand them and also very very disappointed at their choices. So I defer this to the BS H's out there that have dealt with these types of women. If it was me, I'd disown them but you H's are much more loving than this short-tempered BS W. LOL!!!! <hr></blockquote>Hopefully I'll get more responses on this from others.
I would like to say, though, that I do not believe she would abandon our family or our kids. Rather, her very strong sense that she is right, and had the right to do this, and did nothing wrong, and her feeling that I somehow always get my way (news to me!), and her feeling that there is no way she's going to apologize, or admit she's wrong (as she feels she's always done), will probably keep her from making the "right" decision. I think at this point she feel so strongly about "not giving in", that she'd end the M before backing down. Very, very stubborn...always has been. <blockquote>quote:<hr> response: Your list is fine. I meant the top 5. The interesting thing between both your lists are that yours are more giving and her's are more taking.
Let's take a look at her list:
1. Conversation: about what?
2. SF: taker mode here
3. Affection: to giver or taker or both?
4. Recreational Companionship: to give or take or both? Tennis lessons, golf lessons? Single/double or group sport?
5. Financial support: to give or take or both?
I think she is being selfish in her list. <hr></blockquote>Would you expand on this for me? Also, do you mean I should ask the questions you wrote after each of her ENs? <blockquote>quote:<hr> response: I know this is not a question on this point but the project manager title just got me. I am struggling with this title @ work. Being a production type manager, I periodically need to speak with project managers, it just gets my goad when a PM (project manager) comes to see me and claims it is his/her job NOT to know anything, just stand there and direct traffic. Some don't even say that much. I don't have much respect for a PM that will not learn anything about the project they are suppose to be managing.
Now what part of this PM stuff am I missing? I am not asking them to do the work, just understand the process so that we can all get our work done correctly and on time. <hr></blockquote>Now this I can answer for you! ;-)
Trouble is, many PMs, especially those who come from the very conservative "PMI" camp, really feel that way; it is not their job to understand or accomodate the needs of the business unit. It is their job to get the project done. So they "detach" from the details and from the big picture.I, and many other more "practical" PMs, on the other hand, clearly understand that the objective of the project is to provide a service to the business unit. We work with the players, the politics, and the reality of every-day business needs, and accomodate the project timelines and players to that. It's probably because I came from the business side, so I understand the business need, and see it as the number one priority. It is the duty of a good PM to know as much as possible about everything that each team member and stakeholder does, needs, wants, etc.Many techies and PMs just don't see that. They only see their immediate work as the most important objective, not how it relates to the rest of the company or processes they are trying to change or improve. They forget that the ultimate objective is to meet a business need, not to complete a project or a task.It would probably serve you well to have a talk about this with the PMs superiors, and perhaps bring them into the big picture a little more, give them some ownership of it. Also, a bit of empathy goes a long way; show the PM you understand his (or her) challenges, be willing to give a little to help them, and ask for them to understand your challenges, and to give a little to you as well. I've always approached projects as a negotiation; everyone knows wnat they want and need, but sometimes forget what the others want and need. The only way to break the impasse is for both sides to do a better job of understanding each other, and negotiating a mutually accomodating solution. Heck, half my time on a project involves soothing frayed feelings and egos! And educating both sides to the needs of the other. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Decide your boundaries, set them then inform your W. Easier said than done but well worth the effort. <hr></blockquote>
I think this is a major imperative for me. Since I don't feel I have set them and communicated them correctly, I think I feel the need to constantly talk about them, reiterate them, etc. and this causes stress. I find myself repeating the same things over and over again, much to WW's annoyance. Need to do this. <blockquote>quote:<hr> Respect is a much hard word to give to the A than the word 'love' <hr></blockquote>Would you expand on this...I don't get this. <blockquote>quote:<hr>
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11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good, good. Do you mean let her know when I see that she's doing it, or recognize them to myself?
Timelines that are acceptable to me? or realistic (her speed), or negotiated timelines? response: Yes. But keep your responses short and sweet yet sincere. <hr></blockquote>Yes, let her know when it's not acceptable?
What about the timelines? mine, hers, negotiated?
Isn't this really the same as boundaries? <blockquote>quote:<hr> response: I told my H that it was now his responsibility to earn back my trust. <hr></blockquote>
Definitely good! This is the perfect one, and I will do it. (Homework! I love it!)Orchid; I can't thank you enough! 'nuf said!

Update - Session with Steve HarleyIt's all good news, but it somehow doesn't FEEL like good news...I'll have to readjust my attitude.My WW had her session with Steve yesterday, and it went well. She said she liked him, and agreed to a joint session, so I'll set that up.My session also went well today; I received a very good lesson on the absolute conditionality of love, and an expectation readjustment which I guess is what I'm feeling down about (although I understand it, and I accept it; I just need to get used to it).Basically, we're having to go back to "Love 101" and start from there. It is clear that my W and I both need this lesson, and need to work through it so that we may readjust our previous beliefs/feelings and start changing our thoughts and expectations accordingly.So we're going to start with the very basics:-Establishing the foundation for our spouse to fall in love with us.
-Create the conditions for each spouse to have a choice.
-and Entice each other to let each other into this new environment.For now, we'll both address our concerns and issues thru Steve rather than to each other, with some direct feedback but limited.Hopefully, we will both be willing to start making the changes we need to make, and we'll slowly work up to some of the more delicate issues, the A itself included.It is Steve's belief that as our relationship progresses, it will be inevitable that this will happen as a natural consequence of the process, and when the time is ripe. As he put it, we cannot put the choice before the foundation.So, for now, it'll mean gathering a serious dose of patience, and a serious dose of continuing to give, so that we may give ourselves the chance to reconstruct what is clearly so broken.Don't get me wrong, I know I sound down, but I understand why it has to be this way...it'll just be hard to readjust to this reality when I had another one in mind.I'm not even sure how we'll handle boundaries at this point...I was feeling it was time for that.But I'm glad she has agreed to this as well, and that, I suppose, is what I will hang on to for now, and try to rein in some of the other feelings while we give this a chance to start working. I know this is a good step, a positive step, that she want to work on this...I know.In the meantime, I'll continue to learn from all of you, and I appreciate your continuing support and advice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>So, for now, it'll mean gathering a serious dose of patience, and a serious dose of continuing to give, so that we may give ourselves the chance to reconstruct what is clearly so broken. <hr></blockquote> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] yay Spacey! You got it!I just got off the phone with XH. He's in this new, broken, remorseful, self-searching mode. You know what? Now that we're divorced, and my love bank is almost empty, and I had learned to live without him AND let him live his own life(detachment)... he and I can have a calm, mature conversation. It's like... I WISH I had been in this state of detachment, maturity, HUMILITY, and self-assuredness LAST year when I had my 2 chances at recovery.SURE, he's in a different place now. alone, remorseful, self-searching.But, for ME, I can look at him in a mature, healthy way. I can talk to him without the emotions being high. I can talk to him without disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts, and selfish demands. Amazing! If it's anything I WISH I could convince new BS's to do, is DETACH. Let the WS live their own life. Let them find their answers. Work on becoming whole yourself. Find joy, completeness, fulfillment outside of your spouse and your marriage. You will LB less... a WHOLE lot less, and your WS may actually enjoy communicating with you.He's reaching to be my friend now. I'm struggling to find my boundaries on that. But now that the A is over, the fog has cleared a WHOLE lot, he's searching for that "friendship" that we once had. Spacey, isn't that better than nothing? Let that happen.

No replies...? Orchid, Bramblerose, .....

hmmph... [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] sorry for rambling yesterday... I had just gotten off the phone with him, and something you said struck a chord with me that caused rambling... [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Faith1;Thank you for your support...I'm trying to get used to the idea that this is going to take FOREVER!...not sure I can do this...

Space, It seems to me like you have reason for optimism; however you sound down. My H and I are also newly in counseling with SH and have begun the recovery plan. I have been afraid to get my hopes up too much because I naturally want the process to go perfectly and quickly. What I have learned is that I have had to watch that my expectations don't start to become unrealistic. I became my H's monitor to see if he was doing his part of the recovery plan. I also have reason to believe that there is another A out there waiting to see the light of day. What I have tried to remember that this is the time for me to focus on me; SH has said any attempt I make to be my H's coach will only slow the process down. Puts me right where you are as far as patience, faith etc. Good luck CSue

That just reminded me of something... just a little somethin'....Click herebut hey, I remember thinking, I'll plan A for 3 months *which would have been last June through August, then Plan B for 3 months, *which would have been September through November, then I would be DONE - either in recovery or divorced. My patience and endurance grew stronger. Plan B started in December. Divorce was in February '02.God has a way of making sure things are on His time.... not ours... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I just had a WONDERFUL, INSIGHTful post and my computer tweaked...To reiterate what I and others have been saying!Things I have learned along the way:1. Give it TIME. God's time not my own.
2. HAVE PATIENCE. lots and lots and lots. (AND LOTS!)
3. Give up the need to be Right. afterall... what do you get by being right, in the end?
4. Forget how it SHOULD be, or how you WANT it to be. live in reality, not the dream. NO EXPECTATIONS.
5. Be IMPECCABLE in your word. (and that means don't use your word against yourself either!)
6. Don't take ANYTHING personally. It's never about you...
7. Don't make ASSUMPTIONS. (A$$ U ME)
8. Always do your BEST. (and your best will vary from day to day and circumstance to circumstance... so don't beat yourself up either.
9. Treat your family at least as good as you treat co-workers and strangers. RESPECT... RESPECT... RESPECT.
10. Love yourself and give yourself a break.Hugs, Cali

u ok Spacey? Worried aboutcha being so quiet today....I agree that things sound good right now. Your sessions with Steve will be really good for YOU, and for your marriage. I knowwwww... you want to see progress... you want good quality answers... this may have to be a "project" that needs to be "managed" differently than you are used to. {{{{Spacecase}}}}

Thanks Csue, Faith and Cali!I am a little down; it feels like Steve is
sending us way back practically to DDay to start working again from there!
I'm feeling like I just wasted 4 good months of Plan A, plus another 4
months of major pain before I knew what Plan A was, and I'm having to face
going back to zero! All for the benefit of giving the Mrs. the chance to
catch up!
I know it's the right thing, I know it's the right way, I know it's time to work on me and REALLY detach, but boy it sure feels like I'm going to have to drag myself thru the hot coals all over again.And you know what the worst part of it is? I'm going to have to face the DDay anniversary, and 4 days later our 22nd wedding anniversary probably before I'll be seeing much of any results...I'm not sure I can make it.

Thanks, Faith1; loved the Bamboo story...repeating it here for the benefit of all visitors...an mine! <blockquote>quote:<hr> I was just reminded of a story, that to me, illustrates perfectly what Plan A is.The Chinese Bamboo Tree. When you plant a Chinese Bamboo tree, nothing happens for 5 years. You water it, give it sunshine, fertilize it, water, sunshine, fertilizer... over and over for 5 years, and nothing seems to happen. No growth - no sign of growth or life at all. But in the 5th year, it grows up to 90 feet tall! Well, did it grow in one year? Or 5 years? But if you stop that nurturing process at all, it will die, and it will never grow. <hr></blockquote>Tell you what, though; if Plan A takes ANYWHERE NEAR 5 years, I'm shutting it down with a bottle of Valium followed by a bottle of Vodka! ;-)[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>And you know what the worst part of it is? I'm going to have to face the DDay anniversary, and 4 days later our 22nd wedding anniversary probably before I'll be seeing much of any results...I'm not sure I can make it. <hr></blockquote>??? Why does WHEN you see a difference matter... as long as you get to see one ???I probably wouldn't have made it either... 'cause it was almost exactly ONE YEAR to d-day BEFORE I started to see a difference... (see my posts in January and February...I was extremely low)... THEN I went into individual counseling... which I highly recommend in conjunctin with marriage counseling... or at least some kind of face-to-face support group...Hugs,
Cali

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Cali:
??? Why does WHEN you see a difference matter... as long as you get to see one ???<hr></blockquote>Cali; It's not so much a matter of "when", as it is that on dates like that (her b/day, my b/day, M/day) I've been extremely sad, crying...they've been just awful!I guess it's worse because DDay was 4 days before our 20th anniversary and that hit me SO hard...I could not believe that here we were, on our 20th Anniv and celebrating what? That made a huge impression on me...the feelings that day...and I guess I've carried it on to the other significant dates...like on my b/day in March, I kept dreaming, hoping she'd say the A was over, or something...going thru it as if nothing was happening was terrible. I don't know why.[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

SC:"Tell you what, though; if Plan A takes ANYWHERE NEAR 5 years, I'm shutting it down with a bottle of Valium followed by a bottle of Vodka! ;-)" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Sorry, but this reminded me of the following lines from "Prozakc Blues" by King Crimson:"I went to my physician, he was buried in his thoughts"...
..."he said: 'you know the thing about depression is... ...well, you just can't let it get you down." "I recommend a fifth of Jack and a bottle of prozac!" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I kept dreaming, hoping she'd say the A was over, or something...going thru it as if nothing was happening was terrible. I don't know why. I know. I share your dream... but we can't live in the dream if it causes pain. We have to live grounded in reality.
Hugs... I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND. Cali

Cali, SC:"Hugs... I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND. "As do I! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Cali:
I know. I share your dream... but we can't live in the dream if it causes pain. We have to live grounded in reality.
Hugs... I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND. Cali<hr></blockquote>Thanks Cali...you know, it's not so much the dreams; it's the regret. The regret at not having seen what was happening...so easy to have fixed it, if I'd only been told what was missing. If I'd only seen it. Very sad.
And I'm just a sensitive pisces...swimming with a scorpio...in a world where sensitive men just have to build walls

“I'm beginning to see that I cannot control or change her actions, and will work on that some more. Tell me about the "advantages" this has for the BS "in time".
Yes, we do have 2 As to deal with. Wish it weren't so...the calm heart and clear mind will be very necessary, I hope they will come through for me...this is not easy for me at all.
Yes; I need to not let her drag me into those emotional outbursts. I do that most of the time and it has been totally useless and negative. I have begun to learn how to "walk away" from these, and I will work harder on that. I'm going to memorize your phrase about the "babbling" and use it.
Remember, though, that we are barely talking about this. And that has to change.” The advantage is that you will be in recovery. You will recover. The recovery of your M is dependent on both the participation of you and your W. The Ws like to tell the BS that the BS does NOT have control over the Ws. This hurts but it is the one piece of truth that babbles out of the WS’ mouth. Pay attention to those words because you will get to babble them back to the WS one day.
“response: Your list is fine. I meant the top 5. The interesting thing between both your lists are that yours are more giving and her's are more taking.
Let's take a look at her list:
1. Conversation: about what?
2. SF: taker mode here
3. Affection: to giver or taker or both?
4. Recreational Companionship: to give or take or both? Tennis lessons, golf lessons? Single/double or group sport?
5. Financial support: to give or take or both?
I think she is being selfish in her list. Would you expand on this for me? Also, do you mean I should ask the questions you wrote after each of her ENs? “No, I am asking the questions.
1. conversation: what type of conversation are a #1 priority for her?
The answer will show if she is only thinking about herself.
2. SF: sounds like she is interested in only what makes her fulfilled.
The Bible says that a woman’s craving will be for her H. In the case of the
WS that is the W, why is it that her craving is for someone other than her H?3. Affection: Affection from her, to her or both? The response will help determine
If she is in a selfish mode. 4. Recreational Companionship? Why kind?
5. Financial support: On the receiving end of the support or giving the support or both? Again it will help determine if her EN’s have selfish motives. quote: response: I know this is not a question on this point but the project manager title just got me. I am struggling with this title @ work. Being a production type manager, I periodically need to speak with project managers, it just gets my goad when a PM (project manager) comes to see me and claims it is his/her job NOT to know anything, just stand there and direct traffic. Some don't even say that much. I don't have much respect for a PM that will not learn anything about the project they are suppose to be managing.
Now what part of this PM stuff am I missing? I am not asking them to do the work, just understand the process so that we can all get our work done correctly and on time. Now this I can answer for you! ;-)
Trouble is, many PMs, especially those who come from the very conservative "PMI" camp, really feel that way; it is not their job to understand or accomodate the needs of the business unit. It is their job to get the project done. So they "detach" from the details and from the big picture.
I, and many other more "practical" PMs, on the other hand, clearly understand that the objective of the project is to provide a service to the business unit. We work with the players, the politics, and the reality of every-day business needs, and accomodate the project timelines and players to that. It's probably because I came from the business side, so I understand the business need, and see it as the number one priority. It is the duty of a good PM to know as much as possible about everything that each team member and stakeholder does, needs, wants, etc.
Many techies and PMs just don't see that. They only see their immediate work as the most important objective, not how it relates to the rest of the company or processes they are trying to change or improve. They forget that the ultimate objective is to meet a business need, not to complete a project or a task.
It would probably serve you well to have a talk about this with the PMs superiors, and perhaps bring them into the big picture a little more, give them some ownership of it. Also, a bit of empathy goes a long way; show the PM you understand his (or her) challenges, be willing to give a little to help them, and ask for them to understand your challenges, and to give a little to you as well.
I've always approached projects as a negotiation; everyone knows wnat they want and need, but sometimes forget what the others want and need. The only way to break the impasse is for both sides to do a better job of understanding each other, and negotiating a mutually accomodating solution. Heck, half my time on a project involves soothing frayed feelings and egos! And educating both sides to the needs of the other. Thanks for this clarification. I really know what a project manager is suppose to do but to hear ‘babbling’ about why they don’t have to know even the general picture of the project just floors me. Frustrates me to no end and then I feel like these PMs are in the fog!!! LOL!Now I want to share an observation point…….see how good you were with explaining this PM stuff to me?!?!?! Do you do that with your W? Does she appreciate it or shrug you off? When she needs to ‘explain’ something, does she or is there a lot of assumption on her part that you already know it anyway. There may be some type of inferiority complex here. That can be a hidden problem. Respect is a much hard word to give to the A than the word 'love' Would you expand on this...I don't get this. Respect is not as easily misunderstood. You either have respect or you don’t. The word love loses meaning in the A and in the fog. So to tell our WS that we love them is like talking to a wall. But if you say, you are being disrespectful or I need to have respect from all in the family and vise versa, then what?!?!? How is that going to be twisted and fit into the A? The A is not built on honesty and respect. It is feigned and claimed to be built on love but in reality it is built on lies and deception. So certain words like respect, trust, loyalty and caring have a deeper meaning. In time after recovery has restored the trust then using the word love starts to feel better. JMHO 
quote: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good, good. Do you mean let her know when I see that she's doing it, or recognize them to myself?
Timelines that are acceptable to me? or realistic (her speed), or negotiated timelines?
response: Yes. But keep your responses short and sweet yet sincere. Yes, let her know when it's not acceptable?
What about the timelines? mine, hers, negotiated?
Isn't this really the same as boundaries? Yes let her know when it is not acceptable. If you can do this prior to something coming up, then she knows and will not or should not do the unacceptable thing. Timelines for all involved depend on you When you are emotionally ready to detach then you may be ready
Yes it is similar to boundaries. But boundaries are what is set on the parameter of your relationship. Timelines are when those boundaries are developed. Back to U Spacecase!!!!L.[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]

duplicate post.[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Orchid:The advantage is that you will be in recovery. You will recover. The recovery of your M is dependent on both the participation of you and your W. The Ws like to tell the BS that the BS does NOT have control over the Ws. This hurts but it is the one piece of truth that babbles out of the WS's mouth. Pay attention to those words because you will get to babble them back to the WS one day. <hr></blockquote>This is true I guess; but she uses other words. She says things like "we're not going to do this YOUR way, it always has to be YOUR way" or "I have the right to have this, this is mine, and only mine, and you have no right to ask about it" and things like that. Seems like she feels controlled...why would I say that back to her later, though? <blockquote>quote:<hr>No, I am asking the questions.
1. conversation: what type of conversation are a #1 priority for her? The answer will show if she is only thinking about herself.<hr></blockquote>Not sure. I think just listening to her stuff, her stories, etc. I haven't been good at this. Always in a hurry, impatient.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>2. SF: sounds like she is interested in only what makes her fulfilled. The Bible says that a woman's craving will be for her H. In the case of the WS that is the W, why is it that her craving is for someone other than her H? <hr></blockquote>This totally has me confused. She says in the EN questionnaire she wants SF once a week, (I say twice), but she has never shown much desire for SF at all; I mean once a month was probably closer to the norm; and believe me, it was not due to my not wanting it! She does realize, though, that it is one of my ENs and she HAS been trying in this area. Even initiating it herself, which never happened before. <blockquote>quote:<hr>3. Affection: Affection from her, to her or both? The response will help determine
If she is in a selfish mode.<hr></blockquote> This is definitely Taker. She needs more affection. Wants more affection. We've had trouble with this in that she always thinks any kind of affection I give is sexual, so she pulls away, so I stopped doing it. <blockquote>quote:<hr>4. Recreational Companionship? Why kind?<hr></blockquote>Her kind. Dancing, concerts, visiting with family and friends, etc. My kind does not even interest her at all; I've invited her to baseball, to the kids' soccer games, whatever; always no. Hard to share this way. I feel she wants to share but only the things SHE likes, not the things I like.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>5. Financial support: On the receiving end of the support or giving the support or both? Again it will help determine if her ENs have selfish motives. <hr></blockquote>Definitely receiving end. She has felt very, very unsafe since I've been out of work (even though I have still met every obligation like before). I have always paid for everything around here! All the money she makes goes to her personal stuff and some for the kids. I never get any help from her in things for the home, family...I pay every single bill. Been that way for years. I hate it! <blockquote>quote:<hr>...I feel like these PMs are in the fog!!! LOL!<hr></blockquote>Yes; many of them are! ;-) <blockquote>quote:<hr>Now I want to share an observation point…….see how good you were with explaining this PM stuff to me?!?!?! Do you do that with your W? Does she appreciate it or shrug you off?<hr></blockquote>Yes; and she hates it. She feels it's MY point of view, rarely admits I'm right, or could be right, or sees the logic. <blockquote>quote:<hr>When she needs to ‘explain’ something, does she or is there a lot of assumption on her part that you already know it anyway. There may be some type of inferiority complex here. That can be a hidden problem. <hr></blockquote>She babbles. Definitely makes assumptions. She holds very fast to her assumptions about what I think, how I feel, what I do, don't do, will do, won't do...no matter what I say or actually do, she holds to those assumptions. Refuses to see any changes.
It feels like she has to still make me out to be the guy she left for the OM, because seeing how things really were, or the reasons I did this or that, or any changes I've made would end the justification.
She definitely feels like I've always belittled her, dismissed her thoughts...rejected her way of doing things...I don't feel it's true, but she feels that.
Example; she'll come to me for advice on something. I give it to her. She agrees. Then doesn;t do it. Then, 2 weeks later, she comes back for the same advice; I'll give it to her....same cycle. Over and over.
After several times, I'll say: "jeez, why do you keep talking about this? we've discussed it xx times already. Do it or don't do it, but let's stop revisiting the same thing 100 times."
It's as if she wants to go over it again and again until I will agree with what she's doing about it; Nothing. Which I won't do. So then, when I get impatient, she can say; "see, if it's not your way, nothing is good".... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Respect is not as easily misunderstood. You either have respect or you don’t. The word love loses meaning in the A and in the fog. So to tell our WS that we love them is like talking to a wall. But if you say, you are being disrespectful or I need to have respect from all in the family and vise versa, then what?!?!? How is that going to be twisted and fit into the A? The A is not built on honesty and respect. It is feigned and claimed to be built on love but in reality it is built on lies and deception. So certain words like respect, trust, loyalty and caring have a deeper meaning. In time after recovery has restored the trust then using the word love starts to feel better.<hr></blockquote>I think I see your point; I'll try it. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Yes let her know when it is not acceptable. If you can do this prior to something coming up, then she knows and will not or should not do the unacceptable thing. <hr></blockquote>OK. That's what I thought.Thanks SO much Orchid! You've been great, and patient, and I sincerely appreciate it! ;-)

Spacey,
I saw on ashirley's thread that you're giving this 2-4 months, huh? ya, right... I've heard that one before [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .

Faith;
2-4 months for contact to end, and some signs of progress. It's been 8 months since the A was discovered; that'll make it 10-12...more that that I think would be hard to justify under Plan A.[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Bramblerose: <blockquote>quote:<hr> space ~
I could answer all your questions, but I think you need to hear something else right now.
<hr></blockquote>I agree, and I know, I'm working on it...would you humor me though?

Hi Space ~Here's my problem. You see, telling you the details about my situation may be interesting to read, but it won't help you.Why? Because knowing "how long" or "when" or "what" happened in my situation won't help you to become the person you need to become in order to survive your wife's affair.Until you become who you need to be, your decisions are going to be less than optimal. Once you start making better decisions for YOU, your situation will turn around and answers will start presenting themselves.I know I'm being difficult, but I want you to understand, this whole thing is NOT about her or her OM. This is about YOU. I'm trying to get you to understand that your focus is too much on what your wife is doing, and where she is at. Your constant prying of details from everyone else is simply an attempt to get control of the situation.You need to get your focus on yourself and let your wife go in order to survive.

Spacecase - I have to agree with Bramblerose on this one. I've been dealing with my WH - and now XH's affair for almost 9 months now and although people at your stage of dealing with the WS don't want to hear it or can't understand it (I didn't want to hear it and didn't understand it) but the absolute best thing you can do while in Plan A is to learn that you only have control over yourself and that you need to shift your focus on you. The Twelve Steps For Co-dependents by Melody Beattie is a great read. It helps make you a stronger person, and with that strength you can make the best decisions that you can for yourself, your family, and even for your WS while your WS is in an A.It took me 9 months to learn this lesson, and I'm still struggling with it, but it's important lesson to learn if you want to survive this. K

Thanks BR and GIIC;I think you're right. I am trying, learning...will get the co-dependent book.What other suggestions for focusing on me, detaching from WW?

I have a couple of difficult questions.I have been unemployed for over 8 months, starting just prior to discovering my W's EA. I certainly have been trying hard to find a job, but in this market, and especially in Houston, the job market is extremely difficult right now. Undoubtedly my state of mind trying to deal with the A hasn't helped, although I have tried very hard to not let that affect my job search.One of the big problems is that Financial Support is one of the very major ENs for my W, and her position on this has basically been that regardless of what is happening with us, it is my first obligation to address that need. Clearly, this is the case, and I don't disagree with that at all. Basically I've been able to maintain most of the payments through several means, and although things are tight, we're not in dire straits yet. Yes, we're behind on some payments, and we've had to cut back on some non-essentials, but we're basically OK.On the other hand, for several years she has not really contributed much to the family economic needs, using most of her income for personal things and some things for the kids. So I have asked that she try to help in this area, while I can get back on my feet again. Is this wrong? I mean, as it is, I've felt that I have carried the full burden of the family's financial needs for years, and since she is working, she should also contribute more than she does.Which brings me to the other toughie; she feels she can demand this from me, and freely gives me he opinions about work, jobs, what I should do, etc. But if I try to do the same, it's a big LB. Nothing I say or suggest or recommend in this area is taken at all. And there are several areas where she could improve her income, etc. But she just discounts anything I say about this.I feel she uses this as yet another excuse to not reciprocate and at least show some desire to compromise, negotiate, and display some desire of comitment to the M. I know it's probably unrealistic of me to expect anything like that right now, especially while the A is on-going, and she's shown very little desire to meet my ENs beyon some good efforts in some areas. But nothing beyond that. Last night we had a discssion about this and I basically said; OK, you're right. Now are we going to attack this problem as a team, are you willing to take some advice and compromise also? And obviously it was not. So I said, look; I know I have to get a job, and I will continue to try, but I still feel we could do a better job if we did it together. So if you're not willing to work together, and at least try to implement some of the things we've talked about for so long, then I don't think you have the right to make these demands of me regarding MY job situation. This is probably seen as an LB by her, but I see it as a boundary...I mean should I just let her make demands about my work and not compromise and at least try to see some of what I have to say about hers? Is this wrong?

I'll try to answer your "ways to detach" question... this may be basic... so I apologize if it's stuff you already know. Just answering what comes to my mind. Stuff I have to practice every day. Stuff I practiced to help me move forward.(other than the 180 list, right? Do you keep that in front of you and read it 2-3 times a day?)Let her live her life, you live yours.Don't let her decisions, emotions, reactions, comments, etc. affect YOUR decisions, reactions, etc. (refuse to ride the roller coaster)Don't argue, or defend yourself. Tennis is fun, but is not the way to *win* in a relationship. Let her live her life, and you live yours. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Answer her questions thoughtfully, but vaguely. Demonstrate (through body language and tone of voice) that you value her question, BUT you don't have to explain everything. You can even answer with "I'm not sure. I'll have to think about that."Say "I'm sorry" a lot. Even if you didn't do anything wrong. "I'm sorry you feel that way." (prevents you from arguing or trying to prove a point)Let her live her life, and you live yours. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Don't hold her responsible for your happiness. You can have a great day, regardless of her fog!You see her walking towards the edge of a cliff, so do everything you can to save her, but don't go over with her. You've got her in counseling with Steve Harley (Yay!!!!!), keep reminding her you LOVE her, you want to spend time with her, and you don't want to share her, you are HERE working on yourself, and getting support that you need while SHE CAN'T provide it for you.... you're doing the right things. Now let her work through this. She *hears* you warning her about the cliff... let her decide to stop walking towards it. Just don't push her over, and don't walk over the edge with her.Let her *choose* to be in your life. Be the guy she can fall in love with. Be a complement to her life. Let her complement your life. If she was gone, Spacey, you'd HAVE to let her live her life, and you live yours. This applies to the job thing also (IMO), although I'm going to read your scenario and question again. If you were separated or divorced, you'd have to figure out the job thing without her. If you were separated or divorced, you'd have to learn to love yourself, rationalize with yourself, and you'd have to learn to let go. You wouldn't be able to preach, teach, convince, argue, plead, or blame. Set these things aside. just my 2 cents ... hope a little bit of that helps[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

Thanks Faith! I appreciate your being there! ;-)

Hi Spacecase,Just to let you know that I am keeping up with your posts but just have not had the opportunity to post properly to U. U are one of the ones I have to really think about before I post since you make me use my MB brain!!! That is good. So for now, just know that we are thinking about U and looking for the best answers to help support you. Will get back to you later!! K? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Chin up and all that good stuff. L.

Thanks O!
I never seem to keep it easy, do I? [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Spacecase, Ok I have reviewed your last response and here are my thoughts. It was a bit shorter this time. quote: Originally posted by Orchid:
The advantage is that you will be in recovery. You will recover. The recovery of your M is dependent on both the participation of you and your W. The Ws like to tell the BS that the BS does NOT have control over the Ws. This hurts but it is the one piece of truth that babbles out of the WS's mouth. Pay attention to those words because you will get to babble them back to the WS one day. SP's response:
This is true I guess; but she uses other words. She says things like "we're not going to do this YOUR way, it always has to be YOUR way" or "I have the right to have this, this is mine, and only mine, and you have no right to ask about it" and things like that. Seems like she feels controlled...why would I say that back to her later, though? O's rebuttal:
THAT IS WS BABBLE. DON’T FALL FOR IT. IGNORE IT.

O's quote:
When she needs to ‘explain’ something, does she or is there a lot of assumption on her part that you already know it anyway. There may be some type of inferiority complex here. That can be a hidden problem. SP's response:
She babbles. Definitely makes assumptions. She holds very fast to her assumptions about what I think, how I feel, what I do, don't do, will do, won't do...no matter what I say or actually do, she holds to those assumptions. Refuses to see any changes.
It feels like she has to still make me out to be the guy she left for the OM, because seeing how things really were, or the reasons I did this or that, or any changes I've made would end the justification.
She definitely feels like I've always belittled her, dismissed her thoughts...rejected her way of doing things...I don't feel it's true, but she feels that.
Example; she'll come to me for advice on something. I give it to her. She agrees. Then doesn;t do it. Then, 2 weeks later, she comes back for the same advice; I'll give it to her....same cycle. Over and over.
After several times, I'll say: "jeez, why do you keep talking about this? we've discussed it xx times already. Do it or don't do it, but let's stop revisiting the same thing 100 times."
It's as if she wants to go over it again and again until I will agree with what she's doing about it; Nothing. Which I won't do. So then, when I get impatient, she can say; "see, if it's not your way, nothing is good".... O's rebuttal:
HOWZ ABOUT AGREEING WITH HER? That should throw her off course? Then let her wonder what that agreement means. 
There was less to answer this time around. Looks like you are getting it now comes the application piece which I think you really are doing already. Easy to say hard to do. Right now she is going to think bad of you no matter how good you are so why sweat it? Just be what you comfortably can and as agreeable as is humanly possible. Don’t offer too much info, just agree, look and walk away. Better to keep her gray cells working!!!! L.

Thanks O!I guess those were more or less the answers I was expecting. It certainly throws her off when I do the unexpected...I need to keep doing that. And the evasiveness...just drives her nutty...kinda' fun! I think both of them make her stop and think.Just today, she comes to me and says; "you know what? that argument we had on Sunday, you were right. And I'm sorry. You were right."We'd had a silly argument because I came in from the yard, P----- as H--- because the dog chewed up the telephone cable box. Man, I was fuming! and I said so.
She immediately gets defensive and nasty like "That's not my fault!!, why are you screaming at me?!?!" and I said "I'm not screaming at you! I'm p----- at the dog! Can't I come in and complain when I'm angry!?!!?, how come it's OK for you to do the same when the kids do something and I can't do it?"Well, the argument turned ridiculous...she did not accept that it's the same thing, that she also does it, and it's not personal....yada, yada...until I just walked out of it.So I guess it's progress when she comes back today and says I was right and apologizes...that's a lot of pain for such a small step!We'll see what heppens next week with our first joint session with Steve...

Good Spacecase,My nutty methods work better in the fog?!?!?! LOL!! Not that you wish your W to be wrong but acknowledgement and apology is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately it is not a guarantee that she will continue in that manner from now on all the time but once done means it can be done again. Guess that goes for anything but hopefully this good step will last longer. She needs to know she can feel better about herself. That A virus makes the Ws insensitive to apologies. Well the antivenom helps them see that apologies are not the end of the world but the beginning of the healing. Keep up the good work!!! Howz the dog?L.[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]

The dog's fine...hate that animal; chews up the trees, plants, cables, A/C, it's cost me thousands!I'm perplexed at all this...she seems to want to get a lot closer to me, a lot of kissing and hugging that has not been there for some time. Passionate kissing...just out of character.
Also lovemaking...much more than before...sometimes during the day, which is really odd. Maybe she's doing 180's on me!Also, yesterday after almost 2 years of back and forth discussions about her partner in the business and how they should separate...she finally did it! I'm totally amazed!We have had these discussions for years. She asks my opinion, I give it, she says I'm right, going to do it...never does it. Then the same discussion starts all over again, same result, same action; nothing. And suddenly, after our Sunday spat, when I said I thought it was time for her to take a bit more responsibility for our expenses, and about the pressure I have felt in being the sole provider, even while being out of work...she finally did it!And you know what? Her partner told her she's right, that she's not interested in the business any more, that my W has been doing most of the work, and my W should just keep the business on her own....not even a peep about payment or anything! (It's really an agency/broker business so there's not much in the way of assets...just the work each one puts into getting the business)...so amazingly, in just a couple of days, she finally does something that has caused us grief for years, and it turns out better than either one of us could have expected...just amazing!So now I'm the one who's off balance...don't have a clue what this could mean at all...is it positive? For sure. What prompted it? don't know. Am I suspicious and off-balance? YES.Is she coming out of the fog? Is she acknowledging some of my EN's and trying to meet them? yes. What does it REALLY mean? Will it last?
Does it indicate some action in terms of the OM is at hand? hope so!

I'm feeling bad about kinda' excluding all the good folks who don't consider themselves "MB Old Timers", who have also been so very supportive and helpful...so I'm moving this discussion back to my "main" thread...."Affairs that don't end....confused, help!"Affairs that don't end....confused...HELP@! Space [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Spacecase, had to get a chuckle of the dog incident. That sounds like a argument my h and I have had in the past and guess what? I reacted like your w did. I think I took everything personally ---he had ever right to be mad when the dog messed in the basement, chewed up the hose on the gas grill, chewed up chairs outside, and dug the garden up. But when he would get mad--I would think he was mad at me, then I would get upset and the vicious circle of us drifting apart & together.NOW when he gets a p----d about something and he is really trying to release his anger--I don't get so upset. It is wonderful for me that I have finally grown enough to know everytime he gets mad it is not about me. Anyway....my dog was "FREE" from my sister-in-law. That FREE dogs has cost us atleast 1 college education with all the stuff he has destroyed. I am so attached and cant seem to give him away though. hehe