<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>I know. I share your dream... but we can't live in the dream if it causes pain. We have to live grounded in reality.<p>
Hugs... I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND. <p>Cali</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks Cali...you know, it's not so much the dreams; it's the regret. The regret at not having seen what was happening...so easy to have fixed it, if I'd only been told what was missing. If I'd only seen it. Very sad.
And I'm just a sensitive pisces...swimming with a scorpio...in a world where sensitive men just have to build walls

&#8220;I'm beginning to see that I cannot control or change her actions, and will work on that some more. Tell me about the "advantages" this has for the BS "in time".
Yes, we do have 2 As to deal with. Wish it weren't so...the calm heart and clear mind will be very necessary, I hope they will come through for me...this is not easy for me at all.
Yes; I need to not let her drag me into those emotional outbursts. I do that most of the time and it has been totally useless and negative. I have begun to learn how to "walk away" from these, and I will work harder on that. I'm going to memorize your phrase about the "babbling" and use it.
Remember, though, that we are barely talking about this. And that has to change.&#8221; <p>The advantage is that you will be in recovery. You will recover. The recovery of your M is dependent on both the participation of you and your W. The Ws like to tell the BS that the BS does NOT have control over the Ws. This hurts but it is the one piece of truth that babbles out of the WS&#8217; mouth. Pay attention to those words because you will get to babble them back to the WS one day.
<p>&#8220;response: Your list is fine. I meant the top 5. The interesting thing between both your lists are that yours are more giving and her's are more taking.
Let's take a look at her list:
1. Conversation: about what?
2. SF: taker mode here
3. Affection: to giver or taker or both?
4. Recreational Companionship: to give or take or both? Tennis lessons, golf lessons? Single/double or group sport?
5. Financial support: to give or take or both?
I think she is being selfish in her list. <p>Would you expand on this for me? Also, do you mean I should ask the questions you wrote after each of her ENs? &#8220;<p>No, I am asking the questions.
1. conversation: what type of conversation are a #1 priority for her?
The answer will show if she is only thinking about herself.
2. SF: sounds like she is interested in only what makes her fulfilled.
The Bible says that a woman&#8217;s craving will be for her H. In the case of the
WS that is the W, why is it that her craving is for someone other than her H?<p>3. Affection: Affection from her, to her or both? The response will help determine
If she is in a selfish mode. <p>4. Recreational Companionship? Why kind?
5. Financial support: On the receiving end of the support or giving the support or both? Again it will help determine if her EN&#8217;s have selfish motives. <p>quote: <p>response: I know this is not a question on this point but the project manager title just got me. I am struggling with this title @ work. Being a production type manager, I periodically need to speak with project managers, it just gets my goad when a PM (project manager) comes to see me and claims it is his/her job NOT to know anything, just stand there and direct traffic. Some don't even say that much. I don't have much respect for a PM that will not learn anything about the project they are suppose to be managing.
Now what part of this PM stuff am I missing? I am not asking them to do the work, just understand the process so that we can all get our work done correctly and on time. <p>Now this I can answer for you! ;-)
Trouble is, many PMs, especially those who come from the very conservative "PMI" camp, really feel that way; it is not their job to understand or accomodate the needs of the business unit. It is their job to get the project done. So they "detach" from the details and from the big picture.
I, and many other more "practical" PMs, on the other hand, clearly understand that the objective of the project is to provide a service to the business unit. We work with the players, the politics, and the reality of every-day business needs, and accomodate the project timelines and players to that. It's probably because I came from the business side, so I understand the business need, and see it as the number one priority. It is the duty of a good PM to know as much as possible about everything that each team member and stakeholder does, needs, wants, etc.
Many techies and PMs just don't see that. They only see their immediate work as the most important objective, not how it relates to the rest of the company or processes they are trying to change or improve. They forget that the ultimate objective is to meet a business need, not to complete a project or a task.
It would probably serve you well to have a talk about this with the PMs superiors, and perhaps bring them into the big picture a little more, give them some ownership of it. Also, a bit of empathy goes a long way; show the PM you understand his (or her) challenges, be willing to give a little to help them, and ask for them to understand your challenges, and to give a little to you as well.
I've always approached projects as a negotiation; everyone knows wnat they want and need, but sometimes forget what the others want and need. The only way to break the impasse is for both sides to do a better job of understanding each other, and negotiating a mutually accomodating solution. Heck, half my time on a project involves soothing frayed feelings and egos! And educating both sides to the needs of the other. <p>Thanks for this clarification. I really know what a project manager is suppose to do but to hear &#8216;babbling&#8217; about why they don&#8217;t have to know even the general picture of the project just floors me. Frustrates me to no end and then I feel like these PMs are in the fog!!! LOL!<p>Now I want to share an observation point&#8230;&#8230;.see how good you were with explaining this PM stuff to me?!?!?! Do you do that with your W? Does she appreciate it or shrug you off? When she needs to &#8216;explain&#8217; something, does she or is there a lot of assumption on her part that you already know it anyway. There may be some type of inferiority complex here. That can be a hidden problem. <p>Respect is a much hard word to give to the A than the word 'love' <p>Would you expand on this...I don't get this. <p>Respect is not as easily misunderstood. You either have respect or you don&#8217;t. The word love loses meaning in the A and in the fog. So to tell our WS that we love them is like talking to a wall. But if you say, you are being disrespectful or I need to have respect from all in the family and vise versa, then what?!?!? How is that going to be twisted and fit into the A? The A is not built on honesty and respect. It is feigned and claimed to be built on love but in reality it is built on lies and deception. <p>So certain words like respect, trust, loyalty and caring have a deeper meaning. In time after recovery has restored the trust then using the word love starts to feel better. <p>JMHO <p>
quote: <p>
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11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line).
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Good, good. Do you mean let her know when I see that she's doing it, or recognize them to myself?
Timelines that are acceptable to me? or realistic (her speed), or negotiated timelines?
response: Yes. But keep your responses short and sweet yet sincere. <p>Yes, let her know when it's not acceptable?
What about the timelines? mine, hers, negotiated?
Isn't this really the same as boundaries? <p>Yes let her know when it is not acceptable. If you can do this prior to something coming up, then she knows and will not or should not do the unacceptable thing. <p>Timelines for all involved depend on you When you are emotionally ready to detach then you may be ready
Yes it is similar to boundaries. But boundaries are what is set on the parameter of your relationship. Timelines are when those boundaries are developed. <p>Back to U Spacecase!!!!<p>L.<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

duplicate post.<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Orchid:<p>The advantage is that you will be in recovery. You will recover. The recovery of your M is dependent on both the participation of you and your W. The Ws like to tell the BS that the BS does NOT have control over the Ws. This hurts but it is the one piece of truth that babbles out of the WS's mouth. Pay attention to those words because you will get to babble them back to the WS one day. <hr></blockquote><p>This is true I guess; but she uses other words. She says things like "we're not going to do this YOUR way, it always has to be YOUR way" or "I have the right to have this, this is mine, and only mine, and you have no right to ask about it" and things like that. Seems like she feels controlled...why would I say that back to her later, though?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>No, I am asking the questions.
1. conversation: what type of conversation are a #1 priority for her? The answer will show if she is only thinking about herself.<hr></blockquote><p>Not sure. I think just listening to her stuff, her stories, etc. I haven't been good at this. Always in a hurry, impatient.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2. SF: sounds like she is interested in only what makes her fulfilled. The Bible says that a woman's craving will be for her H. In the case of the WS that is the W, why is it that her craving is for someone other than her H? <hr></blockquote><p>This totally has me confused. She says in the EN questionnaire she wants SF once a week, (I say twice), but she has never shown much desire for SF at all; I mean once a month was probably closer to the norm; and believe me, it was not due to my not wanting it! She does realize, though, that it is one of my ENs and she HAS been trying in this area. Even initiating it herself, which never happened before.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>3. Affection: Affection from her, to her or both? The response will help determine
If she is in a selfish mode.<hr></blockquote> <p>This is definitely Taker. She needs more affection. Wants more affection. We've had trouble with this in that she always thinks any kind of affection I give is sexual, so she pulls away, so I stopped doing it. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>4. Recreational Companionship? Why kind?<hr></blockquote><p>Her kind. Dancing, concerts, visiting with family and friends, etc. My kind does not even interest her at all; I've invited her to baseball, to the kids' soccer games, whatever; always no. Hard to share this way. I feel she wants to share but only the things SHE likes, not the things I like.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>5. Financial support: On the receiving end of the support or giving the support or both? Again it will help determine if her ENs have selfish motives. <hr></blockquote><p>Definitely receiving end. She has felt very, very unsafe since I've been out of work (even though I have still met every obligation like before). I have always paid for everything around here! All the money she makes goes to her personal stuff and some for the kids. I never get any help from her in things for the home, family...I pay every single bill. Been that way for years. I hate it!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...I feel like these PMs are in the fog!!! LOL!<hr></blockquote><p>Yes; many of them are! ;-)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now I want to share an observation point&#8230;&#8230;.see how good you were with explaining this PM stuff to me?!?!?! Do you do that with your W? Does she appreciate it or shrug you off?<hr></blockquote><p>Yes; and she hates it. She feels it's MY point of view, rarely admits I'm right, or could be right, or sees the logic.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When she needs to &#8216;explain&#8217; something, does she or is there a lot of assumption on her part that you already know it anyway. There may be some type of inferiority complex here. That can be a hidden problem. <hr></blockquote><p>She babbles. Definitely makes assumptions. She holds very fast to her assumptions about what I think, how I feel, what I do, don't do, will do, won't do...no matter what I say or actually do, she holds to those assumptions. Refuses to see any changes.
It feels like she has to still make me out to be the guy she left for the OM, because seeing how things really were, or the reasons I did this or that, or any changes I've made would end the justification.
She definitely feels like I've always belittled her, dismissed her thoughts...rejected her way of doing things...I don't feel it's true, but she feels that.
Example; she'll come to me for advice on something. I give it to her. She agrees. Then doesn;t do it. Then, 2 weeks later, she comes back for the same advice; I'll give it to her....same cycle. Over and over.
After several times, I'll say: "jeez, why do you keep talking about this? we've discussed it xx times already. Do it or don't do it, but let's stop revisiting the same thing 100 times."
It's as if she wants to go over it again and again until I will agree with what she's doing about it; Nothing. Which I won't do. So then, when I get impatient, she can say; "see, if it's not your way, nothing is good"....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Respect is not as easily misunderstood. You either have respect or you don&#8217;t. The word love loses meaning in the A and in the fog. So to tell our WS that we love them is like talking to a wall. But if you say, you are being disrespectful or I need to have respect from all in the family and vise versa, then what?!?!? How is that going to be twisted and fit into the A? The A is not built on honesty and respect. It is feigned and claimed to be built on love but in reality it is built on lies and deception. <p>So certain words like respect, trust, loyalty and caring have a deeper meaning. In time after recovery has restored the trust then using the word love starts to feel better.<hr></blockquote><p>I think I see your point; I'll try it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Yes let her know when it is not acceptable. If you can do this prior to something coming up, then she knows and will not or should not do the unacceptable thing. <hr></blockquote><p>OK. That's what I thought.<p>Thanks SO much Orchid! You've been great, and patient, and I sincerely appreciate it! ;-)

Spacey,
I saw on ashirley's thread that you're giving this 2-4 months, huh? ya, right... I've heard that one before [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] .

Faith;
2-4 months for contact to end, and some signs of progress. It's been 8 months since the A was discovered; that'll make it 10-12...more that that I think would be hard to justify under Plan A.<p>[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

Bramblerose:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> space ~
I could answer all your questions, but I think you need to hear something else right now.
<hr></blockquote><p>I agree, and I know, I'm working on it...would you humor me though?

Hi Space ~<p>Here's my problem. You see, telling you the details about my situation may be interesting to read, but it won't help you.<p>Why? Because knowing "how long" or "when" or "what" happened in my situation won't help you to become the person you need to become in order to survive your wife's affair.<p>Until you become who you need to be, your decisions are going to be less than optimal. Once you start making better decisions for YOU, your situation will turn around and answers will start presenting themselves.<p>I know I'm being difficult, but I want you to understand, this whole thing is NOT about her or her OM. This is about YOU. I'm trying to get you to understand that your focus is too much on what your wife is doing, and where she is at. Your constant prying of details from everyone else is simply an attempt to get control of the situation.<p>You need to get your focus on yourself and let your wife go in order to survive.

Spacecase - <p>I have to agree with Bramblerose on this one. I've been dealing with my WH - and now XH's affair for almost 9 months now and although people at your stage of dealing with the WS don't want to hear it or can't understand it (I didn't want to hear it and didn't understand it) but the absolute best thing you can do while in Plan A is to learn that you only have control over yourself and that you need to shift your focus on you. <p>The Twelve Steps For Co-dependents by Melody Beattie is a great read. It helps make you a stronger person, and with that strength you can make the best decisions that you can for yourself, your family, and even for your WS while your WS is in an A.<p>It took me 9 months to learn this lesson, and I'm still struggling with it, but it's important lesson to learn if you want to survive this. K

Thanks BR and GIIC;<p>I think you're right. I am trying, learning...will get the co-dependent book.<p>What other suggestions for focusing on me, detaching from WW?

I have a couple of difficult questions.<p>I have been unemployed for over 8 months, starting just prior to discovering my W's EA. I certainly have been trying hard to find a job, but in this market, and especially in Houston, the job market is extremely difficult right now. Undoubtedly my state of mind trying to deal with the A hasn't helped, although I have tried very hard to not let that affect my job search.<p>One of the big problems is that Financial Support is one of the very major ENs for my W, and her position on this has basically been that regardless of what is happening with us, it is my first obligation to address that need. Clearly, this is the case, and I don't disagree with that at all. Basically I've been able to maintain most of the payments through several means, and although things are tight, we're not in dire straits yet. Yes, we're behind on some payments, and we've had to cut back on some non-essentials, but we're basically OK.<p>On the other hand, for several years she has not really contributed much to the family economic needs, using most of her income for personal things and some things for the kids. So I have asked that she try to help in this area, while I can get back on my feet again. Is this wrong? I mean, as it is, I've felt that I have carried the full burden of the family's financial needs for years, and since she is working, she should also contribute more than she does.<p>Which brings me to the other toughie; she feels she can demand this from me, and freely gives me he opinions about work, jobs, what I should do, etc. But if I try to do the same, it's a big LB. Nothing I say or suggest or recommend in this area is taken at all. And there are several areas where she could improve her income, etc. But she just discounts anything I say about this.<p>I feel she uses this as yet another excuse to not reciprocate and at least show some desire to compromise, negotiate, and display some desire of comitment to the M. I know it's probably unrealistic of me to expect anything like that right now, especially while the A is on-going, and she's shown very little desire to meet my ENs beyon some good efforts in some areas. But nothing beyond that. <p>Last night we had a discssion about this and I basically said; OK, you're right. Now are we going to attack this problem as a team, are you willing to take some advice and compromise also? And obviously it was not. So I said, look; I know I have to get a job, and I will continue to try, but I still feel we could do a better job if we did it together. So if you're not willing to work together, and at least try to implement some of the things we've talked about for so long, then I don't think you have the right to make these demands of me regarding MY job situation. This is probably seen as an LB by her, but I see it as a boundary...I mean should I just let her make demands about my work and not compromise and at least try to see some of what I have to say about hers? Is this wrong?

I'll try to answer your "ways to detach" question... this may be basic... so I apologize if it's stuff you already know. Just answering what comes to my mind. Stuff I have to practice every day. Stuff I practiced to help me move forward.<p>(other than the 180 list, right? Do you keep that in front of you and read it 2-3 times a day?)<p>Let her live her life, you live yours.<p>Don't let her decisions, emotions, reactions, comments, etc. affect YOUR decisions, reactions, etc. (refuse to ride the roller coaster)<p>Don't argue, or defend yourself. Tennis is fun, but is not the way to *win* in a relationship. <p>Let her live her life, and you live yours. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Answer her questions thoughtfully, but vaguely. Demonstrate (through body language and tone of voice) that you value her question, BUT you don't have to explain everything. You can even answer with "I'm not sure. I'll have to think about that."<p>Say "I'm sorry" a lot. Even if you didn't do anything wrong. "I'm sorry you feel that way." (prevents you from arguing or trying to prove a point)<p>Let her live her life, and you live yours. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Don't hold her responsible for your happiness. You can have a great day, regardless of her fog!<p>You see her walking towards the edge of a cliff, so do everything you can to save her, but don't go over with her. You've got her in counseling with Steve Harley (Yay!!!!!), keep reminding her you LOVE her, you want to spend time with her, and you don't want to share her, you are HERE working on yourself, and getting support that you need while SHE CAN'T provide it for you.... you're doing the right things. Now let her work through this. She *hears* you warning her about the cliff... let her decide to stop walking towards it. Just don't push her over, and don't walk over the edge with her.<p>Let her *choose* to be in your life. Be the guy she can fall in love with. Be a complement to her life. Let her complement your life. <p>If she was gone, Spacey, you'd HAVE to let her live her life, and you live yours. This applies to the job thing also (IMO), although I'm going to read your scenario and question again. If you were separated or divorced, you'd have to figure out the job thing without her. If you were separated or divorced, you'd have to learn to love yourself, rationalize with yourself, and you'd have to learn to let go. You wouldn't be able to preach, teach, convince, argue, plead, or blame. Set these things aside. <p>just my 2 cents ... hope a little bit of that helps<p>[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

Thanks Faith! I appreciate your being there! ;-)

Hi Spacecase,<p>Just to let you know that I am keeping up with your posts but just have not had the opportunity to post properly to U. U are one of the ones I have to really think about before I post since you make me use my MB brain!!! That is good. <p>So for now, just know that we are thinking about U and looking for the best answers to help support you. <p>Will get back to you later!! K? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Chin up and all that good stuff. <p>L.

Thanks O!
I never seem to keep it easy, do I? [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Spacecase, <p>Ok I have reviewed your last response and here are my thoughts. It was a bit shorter this time. <p>quote: <p>Originally posted by Orchid:
The advantage is that you will be in recovery. You will recover. The recovery of your M is dependent on both the participation of you and your W. The Ws like to tell the BS that the BS does NOT have control over the Ws. This hurts but it is the one piece of truth that babbles out of the WS's mouth. Pay attention to those words because you will get to babble them back to the WS one day. <p>SP's response:
This is true I guess; but she uses other words. She says things like "we're not going to do this YOUR way, it always has to be YOUR way" or "I have the right to have this, this is mine, and only mine, and you have no right to ask about it" and things like that. Seems like she feels controlled...why would I say that back to her later, though? <p>O's rebuttal:
THAT IS WS BABBLE. DON&#8217;T FALL FOR IT. IGNORE IT.<p>

O's quote:
When she needs to &#8216;explain&#8217; something, does she or is there a lot of assumption on her part that you already know it anyway. There may be some type of inferiority complex here. That can be a hidden problem. <p>SP's response:
She babbles. Definitely makes assumptions. She holds very fast to her assumptions about what I think, how I feel, what I do, don't do, will do, won't do...no matter what I say or actually do, she holds to those assumptions. Refuses to see any changes.
It feels like she has to still make me out to be the guy she left for the OM, because seeing how things really were, or the reasons I did this or that, or any changes I've made would end the justification.
She definitely feels like I've always belittled her, dismissed her thoughts...rejected her way of doing things...I don't feel it's true, but she feels that.
Example; she'll come to me for advice on something. I give it to her. She agrees. Then doesn;t do it. Then, 2 weeks later, she comes back for the same advice; I'll give it to her....same cycle. Over and over.
After several times, I'll say: "jeez, why do you keep talking about this? we've discussed it xx times already. Do it or don't do it, but let's stop revisiting the same thing 100 times."
It's as if she wants to go over it again and again until I will agree with what she's doing about it; Nothing. Which I won't do. So then, when I get impatient, she can say; "see, if it's not your way, nothing is good".... <p>O's rebuttal:
HOWZ ABOUT AGREEING WITH HER? That should throw her off course? Then let her wonder what that agreement means. <p>
There was less to answer this time around. Looks like you are getting it now comes the application piece which I think you really are doing already. Easy to say hard to do. Right now she is going to think bad of you no matter how good you are so why sweat it? Just be what you comfortably can and as agreeable as is humanly possible. Don&#8217;t offer too much info, just agree, look and walk away. <p>Better to keep her gray cells working!!!! <p>L.

Thanks O!<p>I guess those were more or less the answers I was expecting. It certainly throws her off when I do the unexpected...I need to keep doing that. And the evasiveness...just drives her nutty...kinda' fun! I think both of them make her stop and think.<p>Just today, she comes to me and says; "you know what? that argument we had on Sunday, you were right. And I'm sorry. You were right."<p>We'd had a silly argument because I came in from the yard, P----- as H--- because the dog chewed up the telephone cable box. Man, I was fuming! and I said so.
She immediately gets defensive and nasty like "That's not my fault!!, why are you screaming at me?!?!" and I said "I'm not screaming at you! I'm p----- at the dog! Can't I come in and complain when I'm angry!?!!?, how come it's OK for you to do the same when the kids do something and I can't do it?"<p>Well, the argument turned ridiculous...she did not accept that it's the same thing, that she also does it, and it's not personal....yada, yada...until I just walked out of it.<p>So I guess it's progress when she comes back today and says I was right and apologizes...that's a lot of pain for such a small step!<p>We'll see what heppens next week with our first joint session with Steve...

Good Spacecase,<p>My nutty methods work better in the fog?!?!?! LOL!! <p>Not that you wish your W to be wrong but acknowledgement and apology is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately it is not a guarantee that she will continue in that manner from now on all the time but once done means it can be done again. Guess that goes for anything but hopefully this good step will last longer. She needs to know she can feel better about herself. <p>That A virus makes the Ws insensitive to apologies. Well the antivenom helps them see that apologies are not the end of the world but the beginning of the healing. <p>Keep up the good work!!! Howz the dog?<p>L.<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

The dog's fine...hate that animal; chews up the trees, plants, cables, A/C, it's cost me thousands!<p>I'm perplexed at all this...she seems to want to get a lot closer to me, a lot of kissing and hugging that has not been there for some time. Passionate kissing...just out of character.
Also lovemaking...much more than before...sometimes during the day, which is really odd. Maybe she's doing 180's on me!<p>Also, yesterday after almost 2 years of back and forth discussions about her partner in the business and how they should separate...she finally did it! I'm totally amazed!<p>We have had these discussions for years. She asks my opinion, I give it, she says I'm right, going to do it...never does it. Then the same discussion starts all over again, same result, same action; nothing. And suddenly, after our Sunday spat, when I said I thought it was time for her to take a bit more responsibility for our expenses, and about the pressure I have felt in being the sole provider, even while being out of work...she finally did it!<p>And you know what? Her partner told her she's right, that she's not interested in the business any more, that my W has been doing most of the work, and my W should just keep the business on her own....not even a peep about payment or anything! (It's really an agency/broker business so there's not much in the way of assets...just the work each one puts into getting the business)...so amazingly, in just a couple of days, she finally does something that has caused us grief for years, and it turns out better than either one of us could have expected...just amazing!<p>So now I'm the one who's off balance...don't have a clue what this could mean at all...is it positive? For sure. What prompted it? don't know. Am I suspicious and off-balance? YES.<p>Is she coming out of the fog? Is she acknowledging some of my EN's and trying to meet them? yes. What does it REALLY mean? Will it last?
Does it indicate some action in terms of the OM is at hand? hope so!

I'm feeling bad about kinda' excluding all the good folks who don't consider themselves "MB Old Timers", who have also been so very supportive and helpful...so I'm moving this discussion back to my "main" thread...."Affairs that don't end....confused, help!"<p>Affairs that don't end....confused...HELP@! <p>Space [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]