space ~<p>I could answer all your questions, but I think you need to hear something else right now.<p>You are headed in the wrong direction here -I know you are struggling to fix this, but consider this excerpt from my "Detachment with Love" thread:<p>Why…?<p>The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.<p>What if….?<p>What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have.

Thanks BR; I still have a lot to learn...a whole lifetime of putting those close to me first, of feeling responsible for them, of trying to save them from themselves...this is not easy for me at all. It goes completely against every instinct I have...

Re: So she's painted herself into a corner, and I'd like to find a way for her to "un-paint" it.
Perhaps you can ‘un-paint’ it for her. Tell her that do not need her to admit, deny or discuss any of this because it’s so obvious that there. She knows the truth just as you do (do not reveal your sources). <p>If she starts going at you in anger, just walk away. You may even want to do think in writing so that she can read it when you are not there to yell at. After all, if you know the truth and have solid evidence you do not need for her to confirm it. And obviously trying to get her to admit it will get you now where.<p>Then just continue work on YOU and your part of the marriage. It will take the patience and forgiveness to do this.

Orchid;<p>A fine response, and together with Bramblerose's post, I think maybe I'm seeing the light. It's not easy to let go like that, so completely. And I think the other ingredient I'm missing is to clearly define and express my boundaries. I think knowing that those have been expressed and are acknowledged (at least), will help me detach. I somehow feel that this will allow me to more easily detach. I presume I will get some more guidance on this when I speak with Steve in about an hour.<p>So here we go:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Response: You are there, she is not. In reality there is nothing more for you to do. Remember that U do not control her actions. The WS likes to remind the BS of this when it is to their advantage and unfortunately, the WS is right. However, this excuse though correct does have its benefits to the BS. In time, it has advantages.
Here is where you need to exercise patience. In your case there are 2 As. You have some scarred history here to recover from. U do. You have read a lot. This is good now take the knowledge and turn it into wisdom by properly applying what you have learned. Realize this, even with your best efforts, M recovery is only 50% within your control. So work on your personal recovery. Pray for a calm heart and a clear mind. Get prepared for the fallout. Prepare a plan B and keep it in the back of your mind.
Don't allow yourself to be swayed by her angry words. Recognize babble and stop listening to it. For me I told the WS: "you are babbling again, let me know when you are willing to speak in a language I can understand." Then I walked away. <hr></blockquote><p>I'm beginning to see that I cannot control or change her actions, and will work on that some more. Tell me about the "advantages" this has for the BS "in time".<p>Yes, we do have 2 As to deal with. Wish it weren't so...the calm heart and clear mind will be very necessary, I hope they will come through for me...this is not easy for me at all.<p>Yes; I need to not let her drag me into those emotional outbursts. I do that most of the time and it has been totally useless and negative. I have begun to learn how to "walk away" from these, and I will work harder on that. I'm going to memorize your phrase about the "babbling" and use it.<p>Remember, though, that we are barely talking about this. And that has to change.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Response: Get new hobbies. Do more things with or for your home, family and individual children. Keep busy. Let her know that you are trying hard very hard to keep your family happy and together. Encourage her to do the same.
Know that she will reject much of what you say and do. Let her know that sometimes she does frustrate you also. If she says why do you try so hard? Tell her you don't know, but when you figure it out, you will let her know. This may keep her coming back to you asking you more questions. This is good.
Try to do things to make her thing of you and the children. Don't volunteer too many answers. Don't give full details or responses. The more she thinks of you and the children, the better your chances and the less time she is giving to the OM. This is KEY! <hr></blockquote><p>I am getting new things in my life. Started doing Bonsai with my son. Not having a job has also been a serious challenge during these times; I'm working very hard on that.
But I do need tostart doing more things for the family; I will do that and will let her know I'd like her to do the same. Good idea.<p>And I know I've been far too forthcoming about what I'm thinking and doing. I need to stop that. It's been a misplaced sense of feeling I shouldn't lie or hide things, and in the also misguided hope that she will start seeing the things I feel she needs to see.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> response: I am not real good at this one. I am a woman but that makes me even more cynical in regards to why women would leave their families for an A. I don't get it. The drive in a woman to stick with her family is quite strong in most women . For the ones that can abandon their families, I must say I am at a lost to understand them and also very very disappointed at their choices. So I defer this to the BS H's out there that have dealt with these types of women. If it was me, I'd disown them but you H's are much more loving than this short-tempered BS W. LOL!!!! <hr></blockquote><p>Hopefully I'll get more responses on this from others.
I would like to say, though, that I do not believe she would abandon our family or our kids. Rather, her very strong sense that she is right, and had the right to do this, and did nothing wrong, and her feeling that I somehow always get my way (news to me!), and her feeling that there is no way she's going to apologize, or admit she's wrong (as she feels she's always done), will probably keep her from making the "right" decision. I think at this point she feel so strongly about "not giving in", that she'd end the M before backing down. Very, very stubborn...always has been.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> response: Your list is fine. I meant the top 5. The interesting thing between both your lists are that yours are more giving and her's are more taking.
Let's take a look at her list:
1. Conversation: about what?
2. SF: taker mode here
3. Affection: to giver or taker or both?
4. Recreational Companionship: to give or take or both? Tennis lessons, golf lessons? Single/double or group sport?
5. Financial support: to give or take or both?
I think she is being selfish in her list. <hr></blockquote><p>Would you expand on this for me? Also, do you mean I should ask the questions you wrote after each of her ENs?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> response: I know this is not a question on this point but the project manager title just got me. I am struggling with this title @ work. Being a production type manager, I periodically need to speak with project managers, it just gets my goad when a PM (project manager) comes to see me and claims it is his/her job NOT to know anything, just stand there and direct traffic. Some don't even say that much. I don't have much respect for a PM that will not learn anything about the project they are suppose to be managing.
Now what part of this PM stuff am I missing? I am not asking them to do the work, just understand the process so that we can all get our work done correctly and on time. <hr></blockquote><p>Now this I can answer for you! ;-)
Trouble is, many PMs, especially those who come from the very conservative "PMI" camp, really feel that way; it is not their job to understand or accomodate the needs of the business unit. It is their job to get the project done. So they "detach" from the details and from the big picture.<p>I, and many other more "practical" PMs, on the other hand, clearly understand that the objective of the project is to provide a service to the business unit. We work with the players, the politics, and the reality of every-day business needs, and accomodate the project timelines and players to that. It's probably because I came from the business side, so I understand the business need, and see it as the number one priority. It is the duty of a good PM to know as much as possible about everything that each team member and stakeholder does, needs, wants, etc.<p>Many techies and PMs just don't see that. They only see their immediate work as the most important objective, not how it relates to the rest of the company or processes they are trying to change or improve. They forget that the ultimate objective is to meet a business need, not to complete a project or a task.<p>It would probably serve you well to have a talk about this with the PMs superiors, and perhaps bring them into the big picture a little more, give them some ownership of it. Also, a bit of empathy goes a long way; show the PM you understand his (or her) challenges, be willing to give a little to help them, and ask for them to understand your challenges, and to give a little to you as well. <p>I've always approached projects as a negotiation; everyone knows wnat they want and need, but sometimes forget what the others want and need. The only way to break the impasse is for both sides to do a better job of understanding each other, and negotiating a mutually accomodating solution. Heck, half my time on a project involves soothing frayed feelings and egos! And educating both sides to the needs of the other.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Decide your boundaries, set them then inform your W. Easier said than done but well worth the effort. <hr></blockquote>
I think this is a major imperative for me. Since I don't feel I have set them and communicated them correctly, I think I feel the need to constantly talk about them, reiterate them, etc. and this causes stress. I find myself repeating the same things over and over again, much to WW's annoyance. Need to do this.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Respect is a much hard word to give to the A than the word 'love' <hr></blockquote><p>Would you expand on this...I don't get this.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
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11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line).
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Good, good. Do you mean let her know when I see that she's doing it, or recognize them to myself?
Timelines that are acceptable to me? or realistic (her speed), or negotiated timelines? <p>response: Yes. But keep your responses short and sweet yet sincere. <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, let her know when it's not acceptable?
What about the timelines? mine, hers, negotiated?
Isn't this really the same as boundaries?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> response: I told my H that it was now his responsibility to earn back my trust. <hr></blockquote>
Definitely good! This is the perfect one, and I will do it. (Homework! I love it!)<p>Orchid; I can't thank you enough! 'nuf said!

Update - Session with Steve Harley<p>It's all good news, but it somehow doesn't FEEL like good news...I'll have to readjust my attitude.<p>My WW had her session with Steve yesterday, and it went well. She said she liked him, and agreed to a joint session, so I'll set that up.<p>My session also went well today; I received a very good lesson on the absolute conditionality of love, and an expectation readjustment which I guess is what I'm feeling down about (although I understand it, and I accept it; I just need to get used to it).<p>Basically, we're having to go back to "Love 101" and start from there. It is clear that my W and I both need this lesson, and need to work through it so that we may readjust our previous beliefs/feelings and start changing our thoughts and expectations accordingly.<p>So we're going to start with the very basics:<p>-Establishing the foundation for our spouse to fall in love with us.
-Create the conditions for each spouse to have a choice.
-and Entice each other to let each other into this new environment.<p>For now, we'll both address our concerns and issues thru Steve rather than to each other, with some direct feedback but limited.<p>Hopefully, we will both be willing to start making the changes we need to make, and we'll slowly work up to some of the more delicate issues, the A itself included.<p>It is Steve's belief that as our relationship progresses, it will be inevitable that this will happen as a natural consequence of the process, and when the time is ripe. As he put it, we cannot put the choice before the foundation.<p>So, for now, it'll mean gathering a serious dose of patience, and a serious dose of continuing to give, so that we may give ourselves the chance to reconstruct what is clearly so broken.<p>Don't get me wrong, I know I sound down, but I understand why it has to be this way...it'll just be hard to readjust to this reality when I had another one in mind.<p>I'm not even sure how we'll handle boundaries at this point...I was feeling it was time for that.<p>But I'm glad she has agreed to this as well, and that, I suppose, is what I will hang on to for now, and try to rein in some of the other feelings while we give this a chance to start working. I know this is a good step, a positive step, that she want to work on this...I know.<p>In the meantime, I'll continue to learn from all of you, and I appreciate your continuing support and advice.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So, for now, it'll mean gathering a serious dose of patience, and a serious dose of continuing to give, so that we may give ourselves the chance to reconstruct what is clearly so broken.<p> <hr></blockquote><p> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] yay Spacey! You got it!<p>I just got off the phone with XH. He's in this new, broken, remorseful, self-searching mode. You know what? Now that we're divorced, and my love bank is almost empty, and I had learned to live without him AND let him live his own life(detachment)... he and I can have a calm, mature conversation. It's like... I WISH I had been in this state of detachment, maturity, HUMILITY, and self-assuredness LAST year when I had my 2 chances at recovery.<p>SURE, he's in a different place now. alone, remorseful, self-searching.<p>But, for ME, I can look at him in a mature, healthy way. I can talk to him without the emotions being high. I can talk to him without disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts, and selfish demands. Amazing! If it's anything I WISH I could convince new BS's to do, is DETACH. Let the WS live their own life. Let them find their answers. Work on becoming whole yourself. Find joy, completeness, fulfillment outside of your spouse and your marriage. You will LB less... a WHOLE lot less, and your WS may actually enjoy communicating with you.<p>He's reaching to be my friend now. I'm struggling to find my boundaries on that. But now that the A is over, the fog has cleared a WHOLE lot, he's searching for that "friendship" that we once had. <p>Spacey, isn't that better than nothing? Let that happen.

No replies...? Orchid, Bramblerose, .....

hmmph... [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>sorry for rambling yesterday... I had just gotten off the phone with him, and something you said struck a chord with me that caused rambling... <p> [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Faith1;<p>Thank you for your support...I'm trying to get used to the idea that this is going to take FOREVER!...not sure I can do this...

Space, It seems to me like you have reason for optimism; however you sound down. My H and I are also newly in counseling with SH and have begun the recovery plan. I have been afraid to get my hopes up too much because I naturally want the process to go perfectly and quickly. <p>What I have learned is that I have had to watch that my expectations don't start to become unrealistic. I became my H's monitor to see if he was doing his part of the recovery plan. I also have reason to believe that there is another A out there waiting to see the light of day. <p>What I have tried to remember that this is the time for me to focus on me; SH has said any attempt I make to be my H's coach will only slow the process down. Puts me right where you are as far as patience, faith etc. Good luck CSue

That just reminded me of something... <p>just a little somethin'....<p>Click here<p>but hey, I remember thinking, I'll plan A for 3 months *which would have been last June through August, then Plan B for 3 months, *which would have been September through November, then I would be DONE - either in recovery or divorced. My patience and endurance grew stronger. Plan B started in December. Divorce was in February '02.<p>God has a way of making sure things are on His time.... not ours... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I just had a WONDERFUL, INSIGHTful post and my computer tweaked...<p>To reiterate what I and others have been saying!<p>Things I have learned along the way:<p>1. Give it TIME. God's time not my own.
2. HAVE PATIENCE. lots and lots and lots. (AND LOTS!)
3. Give up the need to be Right. afterall... what do you get by being right, in the end?
4. Forget how it SHOULD be, or how you WANT it to be. live in reality, not the dream. NO EXPECTATIONS.
5. Be IMPECCABLE in your word. (and that means don't use your word against yourself either!)
6. Don't take ANYTHING personally. It's never about you...
7. Don't make ASSUMPTIONS. (A$$ U ME)
8. Always do your BEST. (and your best will vary from day to day and circumstance to circumstance... so don't beat yourself up either.
9. Treat your family at least as good as you treat co-workers and strangers. RESPECT... RESPECT... RESPECT.
10. Love yourself and give yourself a break.<p>Hugs, Cali

u ok Spacey? Worried aboutcha being so quiet today....<p>I agree that things sound good right now. Your sessions with Steve will be really good for YOU, and for your marriage. I knowwwww... you want to see progress... you want good quality answers... this may have to be a "project" that needs to be "managed" differently than you are used to. <p>{{{{Spacecase}}}}

Thanks Csue, Faith and Cali!<p>I am a little down; it feels like Steve is
sending us way back practically to DDay to start working again from there!
I'm feeling like I just wasted 4 good months of Plan A, plus another 4
months of major pain before I knew what Plan A was, and I'm having to face
going back to zero! All for the benefit of giving the Mrs. the chance to
catch up!
I know it's the right thing, I know it's the right way, I know it's time to work on me and REALLY detach, but boy it sure feels like I'm going to have to drag myself thru the hot coals all over again.<p>And you know what the worst part of it is? I'm going to have to face the DDay anniversary, and 4 days later our 22nd wedding anniversary probably before I'll be seeing much of any results...I'm not sure I can make it.

Thanks, Faith1; loved the Bamboo story...repeating it here for the benefit of all visitors...an mine!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I was just reminded of a story, that to me, illustrates perfectly what Plan A is.<p>The Chinese Bamboo Tree. When you plant a Chinese Bamboo tree, nothing happens for 5 years. You water it, give it sunshine, fertilize it, water, sunshine, fertilizer... over and over for 5 years, and nothing seems to happen. No growth - no sign of growth or life at all. But in the 5th year, it grows up to 90 feet tall! Well, did it grow in one year? Or 5 years? But if you stop that nurturing process at all, it will die, and it will never grow.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>Tell you what, though; if Plan A takes ANYWHERE NEAR 5 years, I'm shutting it down with a bottle of Valium followed by a bottle of Vodka! ;-)<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And you know what the worst part of it is? I'm going to have to face the DDay anniversary, and 4 days later our 22nd wedding anniversary probably before I'll be seeing much of any results...I'm not sure I can make it. <hr></blockquote><p>??? Why does WHEN you see a difference matter... as long as you get to see one ???<p>I probably wouldn't have made it either... 'cause it was almost exactly ONE YEAR to d-day BEFORE I started to see a difference... (see my posts in January and February...I was extremely low)... THEN I went into individual counseling... which I highly recommend in conjunctin with marriage counseling... or at least some kind of face-to-face support group...<p>Hugs,
Cali

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong><p>??? Why does WHEN you see a difference matter... as long as you get to see one ???<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>Cali; It's not so much a matter of "when", as it is that on dates like that (her b/day, my b/day, M/day) I've been extremely sad, crying...they've been just awful!<p>I guess it's worse because DDay was 4 days before our 20th anniversary and that hit me SO hard...I could not believe that here we were, on our 20th Anniv and celebrating what? That made a huge impression on me...the feelings that day...and I guess I've carried it on to the other significant dates...like on my b/day in March, I kept dreaming, hoping she'd say the A was over, or something...going thru it as if nothing was happening was terrible. I don't know why.<p>[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

SC:<p>"Tell you what, though; if Plan A takes ANYWHERE NEAR 5 years, I'm shutting it down with a bottle of Valium followed by a bottle of Vodka! ;-)"<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Sorry, but this reminded me of the following lines from "Prozakc Blues" by King Crimson:<p>"I went to my physician, he was buried in his thoughts"...
..."he said: 'you know the thing about depression is... ...well, you just can't let it get you down." "I recommend a fifth of Jack and a bottle of prozac!" [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I kept dreaming, hoping she'd say the A was over, or something...going thru it as if nothing was happening was terrible. I don't know why. <p>I know. I share your dream... but we can't live in the dream if it causes pain. We have to live grounded in reality.<p>
Hugs... I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND. <p>Cali

Cali, SC:<p>"Hugs... I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND. "<p>As do I! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]