Cali,
You said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> ...but do I give up because it is a struggle? because it's not going MY way? <p>Spacecase, I have seen too many miracles in my life NOT to have faith.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>No, I'm not going to give up, not yet anyway.
I'm just looking to find a place where I'm confortable that we are addressing the toughest (or most damaging) things in a reasonable way.<p>I will have to work on the faith part...! Maybe I'll get "faith" when I see some positive forward movement....thanks Cali!

SC:<p>"You mean to subtly probe her? Like maybe ask nicely if she's spoken with OM or something like that?
Or maybe something less pointed; like would you let me see you cell statement?"<p>Yeah, sort of. I think I mean that, as communication improves, it will be harder for her to hide how she feels about her M, and certainly harder for her to hide her secret life with OM (if it continues) without you being able to tell there's something hidden or wrong.<p>I wouldn't ask to see the cell phone statement. In my case, I never have. I've only looked when it was opened and was in the stack of mail. I got REALLY tempted after D-day 2 when it arrived in the mail while she was still out of town. Saw it sitting on the table for about 4 days, unopened, and resisted the temptation to open it myself. And I have no idea whether it would be a LB at this point for me to ask my W to see her receipts. But since we've been communicating better, I haven't even had the urge to check these in over a month. It's a good feeling, and even though I still feel we're very much "in limboland" as to whether our M will survive or not, I'm a lot more optimistic about the future (whatever it brings).

[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>BrambleRose post <p>Cali

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>...Yeah, sort of. I think I mean that, as communication improves, it will be harder for her to hide how she feels about her M, and certainly harder for her to hide her secret life with OM (if it continues) without you being able to tell there's something hidden or wrong.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, in my case I KNOW she's communicating and hiding, so I don't really have to do much to probe for that. What I'd be interested in would be to see an end (or considerable slowdown) of communications, secrets, etc.
Signs, primarliy by her actions, that she's letting go, and that she's more willing to not hide things, that she's willing to "open up" while we move towards No Contact, the end, whatever. Signs of withdrawl, seeking my support during it, that kind of thing.<p>Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think.
I mean, she knows I think she's still in touch. Whether she thinks I don't notice her little hidden things or not, I'm not sure. She doesn't ask and I don't say anything.
But a gesture like, "look, here's my cell bill", or "these are the calling cards I used, take them", or "this is the PO Box I was using, here's the cancellation notice" would go a long way towards re-establishing trust and credibility. Maybe not totally, but it'd be a step forward.

SC:<p>See? I can always count on you to ask me the tough questions! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Keeps me on my toes and thinking (I know... ...with what???).<p>"What I'd be interested in would be to see an end (or considerable slowdown) of communications, secrets, etc.
Signs, primarliy by her actions, that she's letting go, and that she's more willing to not hide things, that she's willing to "open up" while we move towards No Contact, the end, whatever."<p>Were there "signs" when she DIDN'T go see him while she was in FL? Or do you suspect that she did after all?<p>"Signs of withdrawl, seeking my support during it, that kind of thing."<p>I think these will be obvious, when they occur. Like when my W called me from out in the field last week, saying "I've never broken up with anybody before" and waking up crying in the middle of the night, twice in the past 5 days. Closeness got a LOT better, too, at the same time. So, in general, I think the signs of W/D for my W were pretty obvious. They've slowed considerably (as per my recent thread, darn it), but that was disappointing to me mainly because I put aside my patience and got my hopes up to much and too fast. I'm backing off a bit now.<p>"Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think."<p>Maybe it IS time to probe a bit, then. Probe up to the point of minor LBing, is what I would do. Then back off and wait. In some ways I think that when you're in this sort of stalemate position, you need to set the phaser on "stun" and see what happens, if anything. Then, maybe try a higher setting?<p>"I mean, she knows I think she's still in touch."<p>Because you told her? Or is she guessing?<p>"Whether she thinks I don't notice her little hidden things or not, I'm not sure. She doesn't ask and I don't say anything."<p>So maybe say something. Or encourage her to ask. Again, treading softly. (ain't this fun? NOT)<p>"But a gesture like, "look, here's my cell bill", or "these are the calling cards I used, take them", or "this is the PO Box I was using, here's the cancellation notice" would go a long way towards re-establishing trust and credibility. Maybe not totally, but it'd be a step forward."<p>I still haven't gotten anything like this from my W. I wish she'd tell me she's having her coworker (the one that knows about the A) handle ALL communication with OM from now on. But she hasn't offered that, yet. I'm fresher out of D-day than you, though. But I don't think that I'll need to see what's being said between them (the "how are you doing, you poor [censored]/bimbette" kinds of remarks) besides the professional dialog. I think we can get to no contact between us and the Cs without that. OR, I'll be ready for DV (but with time, I think that's less likely [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). <p>You know, I think it's becoming clearer to me in general that we simply haven't seriously done more than scratch the surface of the problems with our M, and that we CAN'T even begin until we've brutally mangled that elephant. I think it will be clearer to my W in the not-to-distant future, too (gawd, I sure hope so!). It's just becoming more obvious that this limbo isn't getting us anywhere fast.<p>At our last MC session last week, I said that I'd be willing to give my W a DV if this M is too confining for her. Our MC asked me what made me think that was a good idea? And, did I think I really learned anything at this point that would lead me to believe that DV NOW would solve our M problems? Good, tough questions. And the answer is, for me: No, I'm not ready to blow this M apart. I would stand a good chance of repeating the same mistakes with someone else if I quit now. So, I need to keep being patient and loving with my W and wait for her to kill that elephant herself (or maybe support the end of the rifle barrel while I pull the trigger). Then we can work on our problems. And THEN, we can decide whether to stay M'd or "move on." (picturing lone riders heading off into the sunset... ...not). [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hope this helps, rather than adds to the confusion! (at least I'm not recommending that we line our WSs up along a fence to...)

2Long,
It's a challenge! Remember this, though; In my case, my WW SAYS it's over, it's BEEN over, when I know it's not. I know, I have access to her cell records, and other stuff. K?
So, it's a delicate balancing act she's trying to pull off here. IF she says anything that indicates it WAS NOT over, and NOW IS, then she's caught (she's been saying it's over for weeks and weeks). If she now says it's not over, even worse.
In addition, she is NOT willing to talk about it AT ALL. Not a word, BIG LB if I ask...I'm talkin' major fireworks kinda' stuff. So I can't ask about it. Zip, zero, zilch.
So even addressing say, withdrawl, just get me blasted; "It's over, get over it, nothing else to say!".
So she's painted herself into a corner, and I'd like to find a way for her to "un-paint" it. I mean at some point I'm trying to get her to undestand that I'm OK with this, it's OK to feel bad about withdrawl, it's OK, really OK to talk about it, no hard feelings, no resentment, let's just move on....rebuild. But I can't do any of that while it's still going on, while she doesn't talk about it, while I can't ask...see my point?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
Were there "signs" when she DIDN'T go see him while she was in FL? Or do you suspect that she did after all?<hr></blockquote><p>I have no idea. I did not get any confirmation that she did or didn't. And I could NOT tell when she came back. Not a clue...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
"Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think."<p>Maybe it IS time to probe a bit, then. Probe up to the point of minor LBing, is what I would do. Then back off and wait. In some ways I think that when you're in this sort of stalemate position, you need to set the phaser on "stun" and see what happens, if anything. Then, maybe try a higher setting?<hr></blockquote><p>Like how?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"I mean, she knows I think she's still in touch."<p>Because you told her? Or is she guessing?<hr></blockquote><p>Oh, I've said it, written it; there's no question in her mind that I believe it's still going on, and that I will continue to think that until she proves/demonstrates otherwise. TOO many lies, for TOO long...ZERO trust in her word. Concrete proof/action...not words.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"Whether she thinks I don't notice her little hidden things or not, I'm not sure. She doesn't ask and I don't say anything."<p>So maybe say something. Or encourage her to ask. Again, treading softly. (ain't this fun? NOT)<hr></blockquote><p>I guess you're right. It's just that it's an LB, and I'm tired of fireworks! But I know I have to. Maybe I'll run this by Steve tomorrow...see what he suggests.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"But a gesture like, "look, here's my cell bill", or "these are the calling cards I used, take them", or "this is the PO Box I was using, here's the cancellation notice" would go a long way towards re-establishing trust and credibility. Maybe not totally, but it'd be a step forward."<p>I still haven't gotten anything like this from my W. I wish she'd tell me she's having her coworker (the one that knows about the A) handle ALL communication with OM from now on. But she hasn't offered that, yet. I'm fresher out of D-day than you, though. But I don't think that I'll need to see what's being said between them (the "how are you doing, you poor [censored]/bimbette" kinds of remarks) besides the professional dialog. I think we can get to no contact between us and the Cs without that. OR, I'll be ready for DV (but with time, I think that's less likely [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ). <hr></blockquote> <p>I've thought it would be easier for her to just hand over stuff like that, instead of having to sit down and say "you were right, I admit it..." whatever. Dontcha' think?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You know, I think it's becoming clearer to me in general that we simply haven't seriously done more than scratch the surface of the problems with our M, and that we CAN'T even begin until we've brutally mangled that elephant. I think it will be clearer to my W in the not-to-distant future, too (gawd, I sure hope so!). It's just becoming more obvious that this limbo isn't getting us anywhere fast.<hr></blockquote><p>Agreed. I mean, there's a thousand things we have to deal with, but we can't touch any of them until the limbo-stage is over. I mean what credibility would any of it have right now, while we all know there are still lies, deceit, etc.
Nothing!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>At our last MC session last week, I said that I'd be willing to give my W a DV if this M is too confining for her. Our MC asked me what made me think that was a good idea? And, did I think I really learned anything at this point that would lead me to believe that DV NOW would solve our M problems? Good, tough questions. And the answer is, for me: No, I'm not ready to blow this M apart. I would stand a good chance of repeating the same mistakes with someone else if I quit now. So, I need to keep being patient and loving with my W and wait for her to kill that elephant herself (or maybe support the end of the rifle barrel while I pull the trigger). Then we can work on our problems. And THEN, we can decide whether to stay M'd or "move on." (picturing lone riders heading off into the sunset... ...not). [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote> <p>Same here. I'm OK, I'll make it either way, I know that now. My Plan B is ready to be implemented in 24 hours if/when necessary, DV too.<p>But I don't want to do it unless I have to. I want to give it EVERY possible chance, and I know I have fewer things to deal with than she does, so I'm willing to cut her more slack than might otherwise be called for. Period. End of story.
Wuss? maybe. Doormat? maybe....but I want to give it every chance I can.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Hope this helps, rather than adds to the confusion! (at least I'm not recommending that we line our WSs up along a fence to...)<hr></blockquote><p>Was that a crack-up or what!?!?!?! I swear I almost hit "send" to a MAJOR flame in that guy's direction! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]
I didn't because it was your thread.

I sent this letter to my W on 4/19 after an IC session where the conclusion was; you have to tell her what you think, let her know this is not going to last forever, etc. To address the doormat issue/syndrome.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I cannot help but feel that your relationship is not over and I would really like to talk about it...I’ve been patient, and I'll continue to be patient, but I feel that that won't last forever. I would like you to understand that I don't know when my patience will end, or when my love for you will diminish to the point where I won’t want to; I have been patient because I love you, and I want our marriage to work, I understand how hard this is for you, and that it takes time. But I’m afraid that if it takes too much more time, it may be too late for us.<p>It would be fabulous for our marriage if you work really, really hard on quitting ALL contact with the other man, and all the other aspects of your “secret second life”, and I would really appreciate your talking to me about it...I know that this is very hard for you, that there’s an emotional attachment that can’t be broken easily. I understand emotional affairs quite well now, and I know they are just as destructive as physical affairs, but I am here to help. I really am, and I think I can help you…if you’ll let me.<p>Part of what I feel is that you have created a separate life without me outside of our home. I no longer feel like I’m part of your life, part of your plans, part of anything except the guy who’s at home and with things related to the children. I feel like we’re friends and parenting partners more than we are true husband and wife partners. Don’t get me wrong; things at home have been great; I think we both have worked on it, and we both see it and appreciate it. I certainly do. I want to have a wonderful, connecting, fulfilling marriage again, but I can only do so much to make it happen by myself.<p>I cannot ask you to do anything, will not try to force you to do anything, but at the same time, I feel I cannot allow myself to be disrespected to this level much longer and continue to be genuine and honest about trying hard to fix our marriage. A few months ago I was doing what I was doing out of fear, but now I know that I will be OK whether we make it or not, so I want us to find a way to make it because I love you and want you, not because I fear losing you. And nothing would be better than for us to be working together, helping each other out, supporting each other and understanding each other as we go through this difficult time.<p>Trust should begin to be re-established between us, and the basic rule for that should be that both of us should think about what we say and do, and if we wouldn’t do it or say it with the other one standing right next to us, it’s probably disrespectful and not a good thing. I know this will not happen overnight, but we should try to start it.<p>We should to get to a point where we are both working together for our marriage, where we can discuss and agree on certain goals and steps we will be working to reach together; and where we both support each other in that pursuit, and in overcoming our individual personal obstacles.<p>I have found many sources of support and information which have helped me, and I’ll be happy to share those with you because I think they’ll help you as well. In fact, there are women who have been/are in your same situation who would be happy to communicate with you and help you through this, and I’ll be happy to connect you to them. I have found much support and good advice, and much of what you see me doing comes from that.<p>I love you, I wish for us to be the best that we can be, and I wish for us to be that together…like we once dreamed it would be…before we let life get in the way…I truly love you. I truly want us to find a way to make our marriage work for both of us.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>2 things:
-Was that a mistake?<p>-Can anyone venture to guess why my W HAS NOT SAID A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THIS LETTER TO ME?

SC:<p>"So even addressing say, withdrawl, just get me blasted; "It's over, get over it, nothing else to say!".<p>Hm... Ask S.H. about this, but: What I did when I got tired of my W insisting at our MC sessions that she should be able to be friends with Rat Meat was to tell her, in no uncertain terms, that "I'm okay. I can see myself as a content single dad. I'll have to sell the house (and we'd split the assets). I won't support your goals for the future if we're DVd. I won't tolerate OM in any part of our future whatsoever, so CHOOSE." Now, that obviously hasn't changed our M overnight, but it put my cards on the table. I think my W even realizes there's a time limit on my patience. But I'm going to continue being patient for a while longer because of all the things I said on my thread, and frankly because our M is worth it (and I haven't done "enough" yet, per our MC's questions to me). Maybe your W needs to know more bluntly what the consequences are? But then you have to weigh the LB level and the possibility she may run screaming from the room... Your sitch. Your call.<p>"So she's painted herself into a corner, and I'd like to find a way for her to "un-paint" it."<p>A friend once extrapolated that saying to "I've painted myself into a corner, and now it's time to paint myself." Maybe you need to let your W paint herself and look in a mirror and see just how ridiculous she looks painted. I.e., maybe she needs to crash and burn a bit? I dunno. And I'm not one to coment, I guess, because I don't like to see my W in pain. I ALWAYS try to comfort her. And it usually helps, in the long run (recommendations to shoot her notwithstanding).

"I mean at some point I'm trying to get her to undestand that I'm OK with this, it's OK to feel bad about withdrawl, it's OK, really OK to talk about it, no hard feelings, no resentment, let's just move on....rebuild. But I can't do any of that while it's still going on, while she doesn't talk about it, while I can't ask...see my point?"<p>Yes. And I've been there. Heck, I'm still there. It's hard for me to tell her what I'm feeling about her contact, because it's so obvious to me what she SHOULD, and easily COULD do. 3 nights in a row, now, I avoided a direct question "what are you thinking?" by saying "I don't want to talk about it". Heck, that's not ME. I've got to get past doing that. Especially when I've been the one pushing radical honesty so hard.<p>"I have no idea. I did not get any confirmation that she did or didn't. And I could NOT tell when she came back. Not a clue..."<p>She must be a good actress. My W was a "good enough" actress to fool me before D-day, but I don't think she is now. I could be wrong, I suppose, but I don't think so.<p>
"quote:
"Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think."<p>Maybe it IS time to probe a bit, then. Probe up to the point of minor LBing, is what I would do. Then back off and wait. In some ways I think that when you're in this sort of stalemate position, you need to set the phaser on "stun" and see what happens, if anything. Then, maybe try a higher setting?
------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Like how?"<p>Another tough question! Guess there's no way to do this without LBing, see how bad you just LB'd, and back off to see if she thinks a bit. Kind of like survival training. You pick a leaf, put it in your mouth, and chew a bit without swallowing. If it burns, or makes your tongue numb, it might just be poisonous. If it doesn't hurt, swallow a small bite and see if you get sick or die. Don't eat any more if you get sick or die...<p>"Oh, I've said it, written it; there's no question in her mind that I believe it's still going on, and that I will continue to think that until she proves/demonstrates otherwise. TOO many lies, for TOO long...ZERO trust in her word. Concrete proof/action...not words."<p>This is pretty clear.<p>
"I guess you're right. It's just that it's an LB, and I'm tired of fireworks! But I know I have to. Maybe I'll run this by Steve tomorrow...see what he suggests."<p>Thank goodness! But remember, I'm just a poor country scientist lost in the big city. I'm no professional person-fixer!<p>"I've thought it would be easier for her to just hand over stuff like that, instead of having to sit down and say "you were right, I admit it..." whatever. Dontcha' think?"<p>I guess. In the end, it's the same thing, right? Unless she admits it and is STILL hiding something...<p>"I mean, there's a thousand things we have to deal with, but we can't touch any of them until the limbo-stage is over. I mean what credibility would any of it have right now, while we all know there are still lies, deceit, etc.
Nothing!"<p>True. And your (and my) patience will wear too thin at some point and you'll have to give up. And I may get to the point that I can truthfully answer our MC's questions by saying that "yes, I've learned enough to be able to start over, and I've tried enough to give my W plenty of chances to 'come around', but the truth is our M ISN'T right for either of us". I hope it never comes to that, but I can't know at this point.<p>"I'm OK, I'll make it either way, I know that now. My Plan B is ready to be implemented in 24 hours if/when necessary, DV too."<p>There you go. (Isn't that a Texas phrase?). Pulls a good vacuum (that's a 2long phrase = it sucks), but at least you'll be okay no matter what.<p>"But I don't want to do it unless I have to. I want to give it EVERY possible chance, and I know I have fewer things to deal with than she does, so I'm willing to cut her more slack than might otherwise be called for. Period. End of story.
Wuss? maybe. Doormat? maybe....but I want to give it every chance I can."<p>And, like my sitch, at least your W can't bring home any "other surprises" like an STD or a new child... Not that a PA is any more/less insidious than an EA. I guess it's just a bit easier if the sitch isn't as complicated as it COULD be. Make sense?<p>"I swear I almost hit "send" to a MAJOR flame in that guy's direction!
I didn't because it was your thread."<p>I truly wish you had/(would). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

SC:<p>"2 things:
-Was that a mistake?"<p>Hard to tell. I think in my case it would be a mistake to send that kind of letter. Kind of like the reactions I've gotten when I've tried to "educate" my W. When I tell her about OTHER people's problems that I read about on this forum, I get good feedback at times, and I've never LB'd. Maybe you could talk about similar situations to your own with YOUR W?<p>"-Can anyone venture to guess why my W HAS NOT SAID A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THIS LETTER TO ME?"<p>Might be because she won't be educated.

Spacecase,<p>You've gotten a lot of really terrific responses here.<p>I will add something that might sound ... sexist. But it really is not.<p>Remember the Mars and Venus books? You're solving problems - she is feeling things. You want obvious quick forward progress and proof that she's given up her EA. She is tentatively making little baby steps and is still using her EA as a crutch.<p>Remember that most women tend to have more endurance for EVERYTHING then most men. There might be a part of her that is waiting for you to revert - she is waiting to see if all the things you've been fixing in yourself will unravel... And without several more LARGE doses of patience, that might just be what will happen.<p>You are seeing far more progress in far less time than the average or even the majority of people who come to MB. And, in some ways, I think EA's, for women, are more difficult to let go of than for men.<p>She is involved in an EA because of years of issues in your marriage - not blaming, just observing. The problems didn't start overnight, or a week ago, or even 14 years ago - the problems started before that first affair, and likely continued without acknowledgement until you started working on them recently. Just as they did not start overnight, you cannot fix them overnight, either. And perhaps the best advice I can give you is this: Don't try to fix your wife. You cannot. Fix you, and how you relate to her, your children, your other family, your pets, your friends ... when she sees that you are making LIFE ALTERING changes in YOU, and that you are no longer trying to change HER, she is more likely to recognize your efforts as sincere and lasting.<p>The work of fixing a marriage broken by infidelity of any kind almost always falls on the shoulders of the person who did not stray. It sucks. It's not fair. But it is the way it is. You need to decide if you want your wife or a divorce. Then do what it is you need to do to achieve your choice. That's going to mean doing most of the work in restoring your marriage. As you've gathered, marriage is hard work - and this work will be some of your most difficult.<p>My Plan A of well into 2 years worked for me. It didn't fix my marriage - but I know that I did what I needed to do for me, and that I did all that I could to save my marriage. I fixed ME.<p>I wish you the best.

2Long;
1st of all, I have to tell you that I appreciate your responses, AND your humor. Makes this a much better place to be!
Thought I'd say it since I get very serious when I answer, and just don't have the humorous streak you do!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
SC: "So even addressing say, withdrawl, just gets me blasted; "It's over, get over it, nothing else to say!".<p>Hm... Ask S.H. about this... <hr></blockquote><p>On my list...and a long one it's turned into!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"So she's painted herself into a corner, and I'd like to find a way for her to "un-paint" it."<p>...Maybe you need to let your W paint herself and look in a mirror and see just how ridiculous she looks painted. I.e., maybe she needs to crash and burn a bit? <hr></blockquote><p>Yes. I'm afraid it might come to that, just hate the idea, and trying to find another way, ANY other way.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"I mean at some point I'm trying to get her to undestand that I'm OK with this... while it's still going on, while she doesn't talk about it, while I can't ask..."<p>Yes. And I've been there. Heck, I'm still there. It's hard for me to tell her what I'm feeling about her contact, because it's so obvious to me what she SHOULD, and easily COULD do...Especially when I've been the one pushing radical honesty so hard.<hr></blockquote><p>Same as before. Trying to help her get to a place where we can talk...heck, I haven't even BROUGH UP, Radical Honesty yet...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"I have no idea. I did not get any confirmation that she did or didn't (Visit OM in FL). And I could NOT tell when she came back. Not a clue..."<p>She must be a good actress. <hr></blockquote><p>Well, I've got her pretty well down, but one never knows when the tactics change. Gut feeling? she didn't go see him. Too risky, easy to get caught...but there sure were signs she WAS going before she left, so who knows? I'll find out though. (SC has an ace up his sleeve...when will he show it....?) Soon!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"Right now, she communicates, hides it, says nothing, and I'm not too sure what she thinks I think."<p>Like how?"<p>Another tough question! Guess there's no way to do this without LBing, see how bad you just LB'd, and back off to see if she thinks a bit. <hr></blockquote> <p>Yeah. Another toughie for Steve to deal with! <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Kind of like survival training. You pick a leaf, put it in your mouth, and chew a bit without swallowing. If it burns, or makes your tongue numb, it might just be poisonous. If it doesn't hurt, swallow a small bite and see if you get sick or die. Don't eat any more if you get sick or die...<hr></blockquote><p>Now that's good advice! But there's a rub: I've been burned so much, I carry a fire extinguisher. My tounge's so numb, I can hardly speak anymore (notice I type, I don't talk!). And after several small bites I've swallowed, I've run out of Pepto-Bismol, and I'm afraid it's not as effective as it was at first. Heck, I've even got a coffin sitting in the garage just in case!!! AND I made sure the life insurance was paid up!!! ;-)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"I've thought it would be easier for her to just hand over stuff like that, instead of having to sit down and say "you were right, I admit it..." whatever. Dontcha' think?"<p>I guess. In the end, it's the same thing, right? Unless she admits it and is STILL hiding something...<hr></blockquote><p>DON'T EVEN go there! Too much to bear...you like to twist the knife, dontcha'? And that's before I've figured out how I'm going to "heal" from the first wound! ;-)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"I'm OK, I'll make it either way, I know that now. My Plan B is ready to be implemented in 24 hours if/when necessary, DV too."<p>There you go. (Isn't that a Texas phrase?). Pulls a good vacuum (that's a 2long phrase = it sucks), but at least you'll be okay no matter what.<hr></blockquote><p>That's Texas, alright!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And, like my sitch, at least your W can't bring home any "other surprises" like an STD or a new child... Not that a PA is any more/less insidious than an EA. I guess it's just a bit easier if the sitch isn't as complicated as it COULD be. Make sense?<hr></blockquote><p>Please, 2Long, this is complicated enough! Jeez...VD or a baby...I'd go straight to the coffin, no stopping at GO...no collecting nuthin'!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"I swear I almost hit "send" to a MAJOR flame in that guy's direction!
I didn't because it was your thread."<p>I truly wish you had/(would). [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <hr></blockquote><p>I still might...just let him try THAT again! ;-)<p>[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

SC: <p>"I still might...just let him try THAT again! ;-)"<p>Do!! Do!!<p>He's not the only one out there, either. I've just been getting a bit tired of the recommendations that forget there are two sides to every one of these situations on this forum (even 4, if OP are included), and so long as the purpose of posting is to rebuild a M, shouldn't we be considerate of all these people involved? <p>...well, I still wouldn't mind a whole lot if that asteroid were to strike the OM's home town one of these nights...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>"2 things:
-Was that a mistake?"<p>Hard to tell. I think in my case it would be a mistake to send that kind of letter. Kind of like the reactions I've gotten when I've tried to "educate" my W. When I tell her about OTHER people's problems that I read about on this forum, I get good feedback at times, and I've never LB'd. Maybe you could talk about similar situations to your own with YOUR W?<p>"-Can anyone venture to guess why my W HAS NOT SAID A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THIS LETTER TO ME?"<p>Might be because she won't be educated.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I did think about it quite a bit before sending it, but I figured it was better to just say it, and use a letter so as to make it a little more palatable, and it did turn out OK. It was that day I had the long talk with her, and she responded so well I was on the board here jumpin' for joy!? 'member?<p>I know she won't get "educated", at least by me, at least not yet. But I think it's because she just can't refute anything I say, and she can't prove anything I ask, so she just avoids it...and she probably doesn't actually believe I will walk out...you're looking at MR PATIENCE, here...I've let so many things go for so long...it's pathetic!

SC:<p>It sounds like she DID read the letter, then.<p>I had sent a scathing letter to my W, with running commentary on everything she said to OM in early March and his reply to her, because she didn't agree it was anything I should be worried about... <p>I thought about it for a while, then went into her "in" box and deleted the message. She said she wouldn't have read it anyway. Hm. I'll never know, but I'm glad I deleted it, because it was hurtful (and was intended to be, because THAT'S how I reacted when I felt hurt all through these past 12 years).

This is Terrific, Terri! (no pun intended!)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by terri:
I will add something that might sound ... sexist. But it really is not.<p>Remember the Mars and Venus books? You're solving problems - she is feeling things. You want obvious quick forward progress and proof that she's given up her EA. She is tentatively making little baby steps and is still using her EA as a crutch.<hr></blockquote><p>You are correct. I don't forget this, I just can't change the Martian that quick...or adjust the htinking...it feels like forever!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Remember that most women tend to have more endurance for EVERYTHING then most men.<hr></blockquote><p>Don't remind me; it's painful enough as it is ;-)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There might be a part of her that is waiting for you to revert - she is waiting to see if all the things you've been fixing in yourself will unravel... And without several more LARGE doses of patience, that might just be what will happen.<hr></blockquote><p>I think you are quite correct on this one. Definitely, and I have to remind myself of that more often. She has expressed this precise thought several times.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You are seeing far more progress in far less time than the average or even the majority of people who come to MB. And, in some ways, I think EA's, for women, are more difficult to let go of than for men.<hr></blockquote><p>Thank you for that! I hope you're right in the progress part...it sure feels like we're not moving at all!<p>And yes, thanks to several FWWs here, I've learned a lot about women in EAs, and I'm much more understanding of the time and effort required to break free from them. (This is for you AS!)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>She is involved in an EA because of years of issues in your marriage - not blaming, just observing. The problems didn't start overnight, or a week ago, or even 14 years ago - the problems started before that first affair, and likely continued without acknowledgement until you started working on them recently. Just as they did not start overnight, you cannot fix them overnight, either.<hr></blockquote> <p>Indeed; it seems like every day I discover a new one, and sometimes it feels like it's too much, too impossible a goal to try to reach...makes it harder, but I'm still going at it!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And perhaps the best advice I can give you is this: Don't try to fix your wife. You cannot. Fix you, and how you relate to her, your children, your other family, your pets, your friends ... when she sees that you are making LIFE ALTERING changes in YOU, and that you are no longer trying to change HER, she is more likely to recognize your efforts as sincere and lasting.<hr></blockquote><p>I have to work harder at this. No question.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The work of fixing a marriage broken by infidelity of any kind almost always falls on the shoulders of the person who did not stray. It sucks. It's not fair. But it is the way it is. You need to decide if you want your wife or a divorce. Then do what it is you need to do to achieve your choice. That's going to mean doing most of the work in restoring your marriage. As you've gathered, marriage is hard work - and this work will be some of your most difficult.<hr></blockquote><p>Intellectually, I know this. Emotionally, it's such severe pain...I'm trying so hard!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My Plan A of well into 2 years worked for me. It didn't fix my marriage - but I know that I did what I needed to do for me, and that I did all that I could to save my marriage. I fixed ME.<p>I wish you the best.<hr></blockquote><p>2 Years! I can't even imagine that!<p>Thanks for your post. Very, very helpful and it gives me hope and strength. Thanks Terri!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> SC:
It sounds like she DID read the letter, then.<p> <hr></blockquote><p>Oh, she read it alright. She just never acknowledged it or talked about it at all!<p>I gave it to her after our talk that day, and basically the talk was the same content of the letter. She never responded to the parts about patience, and patience running out, or the OM, contact, etc.<p>She only talked about working for our M, how much she loved me, and seeing the changes and appreciateing them. Not the "sensitive" subjects.<p>[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
BR, you said:<p>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once I started accepting who he was, rather than trying to force him into being someone I wanted him to be, I didn't have to worry about wether or not he knew if I knew, etc. It wasn't important. I just nodded my head and made noncommittal noises to whatever he said - I really didn't care if he thought I believed him or not. You see, I wasn't focused on him - I was focused on me.<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>OK, I understand...how does this lead to recovery?
Or how did it then evolve into recovery for you?<p>CAN you really recover without some degree of confession and remorse? Some degree of "new rules" (MB principles)? Is it a real recovery? Is it a M built on something more solid than it was before?<p><hr></blockquote><p>I am not in a recovery situation that does not contain confession and remorse. My husband is now completely open, very embarrassed, very remorseful and very much trying to carry his end of our marriage.<p>But I did not get to this position by convincing him to change. <p>It's like this. A marriage is made of 2 people. If 50% of the marriage is made up of ME, then doesn't it logically follow that since I can't change my spouse to improve the marriage, that I should change me? At least I can improve 50% of the marriage! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Not only that, but set aside the affair and the blame for a moment. Did you not do many things that hurt your wife and hurt your marriage? Regardless of what she did, don't you need to fix those things, don't you owe apologies and amends?<p>Think back throughout your marriage. Do you like the person you were in your marriage? Who has the power to change that?<p>I guarantee, if you want your marriage to improve, improving yourself is the only solution.<p>So thats what I did. Along the way, it became clear that my husband was going to continue his affair(s) and that he wasn't interested in truely rebuilding. He quit counseling with SH when SH insisted that he move home and start practicing radical honesty.<p>But the more I improved, and the closer to death his affair came, the better the marriage option looked. He began to have hope that maybe, just maybe, I had become someone that he could rescue our incredibly ugly situation with. <p>You see, I'd fixed most of the things he complained about over our marriage - some of those things were very serious. I was the Queen of Disrespectful Judgements and Selfish Demands - and yet to hear me talk, I was a victim of his irresponsible, lazy, self-absorbed behavior our entire marriage.<p>When I became someone he wanted in his life, then he decided to be someone that I wanted.<p>That was when he came to me and said: Ok, I want our marriage, here is what I am willing to do if you'll stop the divorce. <p>Now, the more i focus on doing MY part of the marriage, the more interested he is in loving me. It really really works. I've learned to admire him and not judge him. I've learned to let him live as he sees fit. By doing it, I achieved what I struggled to do by force unsuccessfully for YEARS. <p>As long as I tried to force him to do what I thought he should, he wouldn't. When I started doing what I should, he started doing what he should.<p>Funny how that works [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Spacecase,<p>Bet you thought that I have forgotten my promise to respond?!?!? WEll I wrote this last night and the 'puter broke!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I managed to save it so though I am a day late and a dollar short, here's my 2 cents. Isn't that what a dollar is worth nowadays anyway!?!? LOL! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Here goes:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. You have shown admitted your know faults and working on making those changes.
4. You say you are plan Aing your butt off.
5. You have both met with an with IC/MC but without full cooperation from your W. <p>Based on the above:<p>1. You can't be in a M recovery until she is willing to participate. <p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Agreed; that is what I'm trying to get to...how?<p>Response: You are there, she is not. In reality there is nothing more for you to do. Remember that U do not control her actions. The WS likes to remind the BS of this when it is to their advantage and unfortunately, the WS is right. However, this excuse though correct does have its benefits to the BS. In time, it has advantages. <p>Here is where you need to exercise patience. In your case there are 2 As. You have some scarred history here to recover from. U do. You have read a lot. This is good now take the knowledge and turn it into wisdom by properly applying what you have learned. Realize this, even with your best efforts, M recovery is only 50% within your control. So work on your personal recovery. Pray for a calm heart and a clear mind. Get prepared for the fallout. Prepare a plan B and keep it in the back of your mind. <p>Don't allow yourself to be swayed by her angry words. Recognize babble and stop listening to it. For me I told the WS: "you are babbling again, let me know when you are willing to speak in a language I can understand." Then I walked away. <p>When I got stronger I learned to babble back. <p>WS: I want you to go and get the D.
BS: Ok, go get the D. <p>WS: The D work is too hard, go get the D.
BS: Ok, go get the D. <p>WS: You don't love me.
BS: You are right, I loved another man, the one I married. Please go find him and ask him to come back, I want to give him a big kiss and tell him I love him & want him to come home.
WS: Yea, me too. <p>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. So work on your recovery. You have already begun, continue advancing with you and your family. This will leave her behind and she needs to see that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>This is exactly what I am trying to do. It may sound like I want to "get her on board" (which I do), but it is very much a desire and a wish, as a side-effect of my Plan A. I am quite on-board with the idea that Plan A and moving to recovery are for me first.<p>Ideas are welcome...<p> Response: Get new hobbies. Do more things with or for your home, family and individual children. Keep busy. Let her know that you are trying hard very hard to keep your family happy and together. Encourage her to do the same. <p>Know that she will reject much of what you say and do. Let her know that sometimes she does frustrate you also. If she says why do you try so hard? Tell her you don't know, but when you figure it out, you will let her know. This may keep her coming back to you asking you more questions. This is good. <p>Try to do things to make her thing of you and the children. Don't volunteer too many answers. Don't give full details or responses. The more she thinks of you and the children, the better your chances and the less time she is giving to the OM. This is KEY!<p>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How that affects a female WS seems to vary. Women are very different from men at this point. More likely to give up all if pushed....why? I am not sure but women's limits are different from men. Still this is not an excuse to let you be the doormat. Women in this category also tend to push their loving men to their limits.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Interesting perspective. And I believe you're right; she'd probably be more likely to hold her position that I would, and she might just be willing to end the M before admitting she's done anything wrong. She may come to regret it, but it won't happen for years!<p>Any ideas here?<p> response: I am not real good at this one. I am a woman but that makes me even more cynical in regards to why women would leave their families for an A. I don't get it. The drive in a woman to stick with her family is quite strong in most women . For the ones that can abandon their families, I must say I am at a lost to understand them and also very very disappointed at their choices. So I defer this to the BS H's out there that have dealt with these types of women. If it was me, I'd disown them but you H's are much more loving than this short-tempered BS W. LOL!!!! <p>quote:<p>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Tell us what your & your W's EN questionnaire scores were.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Not sure what you mean by "scores" but here are our top 5: (and I'm willing to expand on this if you'd like)
Mine -
Honesty & Openess
Admiration
Affection
Financial Support
Sexual Fulfillment<p>Hers -
Conversation
Sexual Fulfillment (I have no idea where this came from!)
Affection
Recreational Companionship
Financial Support<p> response: Your list is fine. I meant the top 5. The interesting thing between both your lists are that yours are more giving and her's are more taking. <p>Let's take a look at her list:<p>1. Conversation: about what?
2. SF: taker mode here
3. Affection: to giver or taker or both?
4. Recreational Companionship: to give or take or both? Tennis lessons, golf lessons? Single/double or group sport?
5. Financial support: to give or take or both?<p>I think she is being selfish in her list.<p> <p>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Remember there are no guarantees in this process. Just do the best you can. Be satisfied with your best.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>I know; I am; I'm trying, but my nature is to not be satisfied (must be the Project Manager in me...man, I've been doing that for too long!) ;-)<p>
response: I know this is not a question on this point but the project manager title just got me. I am struggling with this title @ work. Being a production type manager, I periodically need to speak with project managers, it just gets my goad when a PM (project manager) comes to see me and claims it is his/her job NOT to know anything, just stand there and direct traffic. Some don't even say that much. I don't have much respect for a PM that will not learn anything about the project they are suppose to be managing. <p>Now what part of this PM stuff am I missing? I am not asking them to do the work, just understand the process so that we can all get our work done correctly and on time. <p>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. Refuse to be your W's doormat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>I haven't been perhaps quite as good at this as I might. Probably because she was VERY effective in her extreme reactions to my discoveries, snooping, confronting the truth, and I may have backed off too much. Suggestions? <p>Decide your boundaries, set them then inform your W. Easier said than done but well worth the effort. <p>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. Require all in the family to show value and respect for each other.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Interesting idea, would you expand on this?
(I mean we have a very well developed sense of right and wrong, respect, judeo-christian values in general, but perhaps we need something else?)<p>response: Each member should know how to speak and interact with each other. Very basic stuff. Often lost by the WS while doing the A. Respect is a much hard word to give to the A than the word 'love'. <p>Simple acts as: how we speak to each other and then do them. <p>In the A, many a WS will act very childish:<p>Ws (when confronted with d/d): Well you never loved me anyway.
BS: So that made the A ok?
WS: No, but you were busy all the time.
BS: So that made the A ok?
Ws: No. but we were just friends.
BS: So that made the A ok?<p>BS: Look, stop with the excuses, let me know when you have a valid reason that we can discuss.
Ws: Ok. <p>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11. Recognize big and little recovery steps. Set timelines of acceptable recovery. What I mean is that certain types of recovery will not always be acceptable (ex: reduced contact with the OP, ok at first but not 3 months down the line).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Good, good. Do you mean let her know when I see that she's doing it, or recognize them to myself?<p>Timelines that are acceptable to me? or realistic (her speed), or negotiated timelines?<p>
response: Yes. But keep your responses short and sweet yet sincere. <p>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13. Don't be afraid to give your W some work. That is essential to the healing process. Remember in the hospital, patients are told to rest but often therapy is given right away. So don't enable your W.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Good idea. Like what kinds of stuff?<p>
response: I told my H that it was now his responsibility to earn back my trust. <p>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But this is a start right? Take it from here spacecase.........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>whew! I didn't think I was going to make it through this! Back to you Orchid!<p>Ok, how'd I do?<p>
L.<p>[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Orchid: Ok, how'd I do? <hr></blockquote><p>Fantastique ma cherie!<p>I bet you're a lot of fun!<p>Now I'M going to need a day to digest and respond...and I don't even have the Zyrtec excuse... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

BR;
Thanks for the follow-up. Very good feedback; I think I may be getting it now...still need some help here though.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> It's like this. A marriage is made of 2 people. If 50% of the marriage is made up of ME, then doesn't it logically follow that since I can't change my spouse to improve the marriage, that I should change me? At least I can improve 50% of the marriage! <hr></blockquote> <p>OK, I'm getting this....yes, I'm responsible for my 50%.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Not only that, but set aside the affair and the blame for a moment. Did you not do many things that hurt your wife and hurt your marriage? Regardless of what she did, don't you need to fix those things, don't you owe apologies and amends?<hr></blockquote><p>I did. I do. and I have.
I am fully aware of the many, many ways in which I hurt her, and our M. No question, no excuses, it's the truth. I've been working on as many of these as she's been willing to talk to me about, and many others I've discovered on my own. I am majorly cognizant of this, and I know it'll be a long road for me...but I've started down that road.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Think back throughout your marriage. Do you like the person you were in your marriage? Who has the power to change that?<hr></blockquote><p>No, and me-bee.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So thats what I did. Along the way, it became clear that my husband was going to continue his affair(s) and that he wasn't interested in truely rebuilding. He quit counseling with SH when SH insisted that he move home and start practicing radical honesty.<hr></blockquote><p>How'd you do with that? I mean what happened? How did you deal with it? Just kept Plan Aing? For how long?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>But the more I improved, and the closer to death his affair came, the better the marriage option looked. He began to have hope that maybe, just maybe, I had become someone that he could rescue our incredibly ugly situation with.<hr></blockquote><p>How did you know this? How did he recognize that there was an "incredibly ugly situation"?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When I became someone he wanted in his life, then he decided to be someone that I wanted.
That was when he came to me and said: Ok, I want our marriage, here is what I am willing to do if you'll stop the divorce.<hr></blockquote><p>And what was he willing to do?<p>OK, part of him decided you were what he wanted, but part of him was "pushed" to decide because of the Divorce? Or forced to make A decision, right?<p>I mean Plan B, or Divorce proceedings do have a way to get them to move off the dime, right?
Isn't THAT part of the problem I have? She has no real reason to decide now, or quickly...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now, the more i focus on doing MY part of the marriage, the more interested he is in loving me. It really really works. I've learned to admire him and not judge him. I've learned to let him live as he sees fit. By doing it, I achieved what I struggled to do by force unsuccessfully for YEARS. <p>As long as I tried to force him to do what I thought he should, he wouldn't. When I started doing what I should, he started doing what he should.<p>Funny how that works .<hr></blockquote><p>OK; yes, part of it is what you did, then he came around and decided he'd seen enough good so he wanted to be a part of that, right?<p>Then, together, you both continued working on yourselves and the M. Was this when you implemented many/some/most of the MB principles, or was it before?<p>I mean, at what point were you when he decided he was coming on-board the train?<p>What had you both implemented up to there?
When did coming clean happen?
When did remorse happen?
When did accepting his responsibility for change happen? How?<p>I feel like OK, I'm being real nice, and sensitive, and caring, and loving and all that, and I'm getting very little in return...and I keep hoping to see some reciprocity....does it just take forever? Does it take a "Jolt"? Threat? Plan B?....Divorce proceedings?<p>[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>