<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I guess the part that's so hard to break through on is that the A was discovered, and she made multiple attempts at hiding it better, and I became a master spy and kept finding them, until the confrontations with the evidence became so darned awful, (and they were not having the desired effect: admission), I stopped doing it.<hr></blockquote><p>Glad you stopped, you were only hurting yourself. <p>My H did the same thing. I knew he was cheating for months before i found proof. Even with proof and admission on his part he still told everyone else that I was blowing it out of porportion, I was crazy. He told his parents that I was reading into things and that I was psycho.<p>That was until I found roughly 30 emails on his work computer btwn him and his OW that were pretty explicit. I showed them to his family and they let him know that they had read them. There was no more pretending. BUT, that didn't stop his affair. What it did do however, because his family was on my side, was to allow them to say to his face that his OW would never been accepted, even if I was divorced from him. It did put pressure on him, and I count THAT day as the day that there was full disclosure of the affair, even though my D-Day was 4 months before that.<p>His affair came to a final conclusion almost exactly a year later. <p>After that, I had to stop snooping. I already knew he was lying and cheating. Instead of trying to determine if or when he was lying it was easier to just assume the worst at all times, and then get on with my life. If he told me that the sky was blue - I didn't believe him until I checked for myself.<p>Acceptance that the affair was ongoing and that he was a liar just made my own plan A and my own life that much simpler. I just nodded my head and said uh huh, or oh thats nice whenever he was around and talking at me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Since then, she's just been saying that it's over (and I know it's not), but I just have not wanted to confront her with evidence any more because of the major LBs they turned into.<hr></blockquote><p>You know and she knows you know. Let it be at that. Anything else just becomes a demand or a judgement or results in angry outbursts.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So she's kinda' in a good place, where she might think I believe her, or she knows she handled the evidence in a way that will probably prevent me from doing it again, and she's settled into this gliding mode where everything's just peachy, and I'm sometimes seething...<hr></blockquote><p>If you are talking to SH on a regular basis, trust me, he won't let this "gliding" go on forever. He'll come up with a way for you to shake things up. In the meantime - work on acceptance. This is who she is right now. She's not the woman you want or wish she was.<p>I have 2 more books for your reading list - the first one which you should RUN to B&N immediately to get.<p>1. The Language of Letting Go by Melody Beattie
2. The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman<p>#1 will start helping YOU immediately to detach emotionally and to work on acceptance. It's a daily reader, but you can just look up topics in the index and read by topic. It's very easy and I think its an absolute must for getting into a personal frame of mind that allows the best possible Plan A while dealing with active addiction (in this case, an affair).<p>The 5 Love Languages is just a beautiful book. Both my H and I found it really really helpful in understanding each other's needs. It's the MB princples, just worded differently, but in a way that increases insight - it has a love TANK instead of a love BANK! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] My H was able to tell me after reading it that his love language was acts of service, and he got soooo much better at my need for affection when he was able to understand my need for physical affection and gift giving.<p>It might help you figure out what your wife needs without having to get her cooperation.

Hi SpaceCase...<p>How long since you discovered MB? The Harley's recommend a general...varies by situation and person...6 month period.<p>IF THE A CONTINUES AND YOU FEEL YOUR LOVE BANK DRAINING... then plan b.<p>I'm going to go even further in that I did a really 'shakey' plan A for 3-4 months... my best plan A started in October... H ended contact on his own...mostly in January.... BUT THAT IT WAS ONLY IN FEBRUARY THAT I GAVE THE WHOLE THING TO GOD. <p>March and April and now May have been NOTHING short of miraculous...<p>Give it up that you can control the outcome by plan A or plan B... give it up and give it to a HIGHER POWER! DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO MOVE ON AND BECOME A WHOLE... FUNCTIONING... JOYFUL PERSON! <p>Cali

BR, thanks, great input. A couple of questions:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> quote:
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I guess the part that's so hard to break through on is that the A was discovered, and she made multiple attempts at hiding it better, and I became a master spy and kept finding them, until the confrontations with the evidence became so darned awful, (and they were not having the desired effect: admission), I stopped doing it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Glad you stopped, you were only hurting yourself. <hr></blockquote><p>Agreed. I know it's going on, the details don't matter anymore. And it does hurt. Bad!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Acceptance that the affair was ongoing and that he was a liar just made my own plan A and my own life that much simpler. I just nodded my head and said uh huh, or oh thats nice whenever he was around and talking at me.<hr></blockquote><p>Pretty much my attitude. But did you feel he knew you knew? I mean, did you make it obvious? or did you just pretend you believed?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>quote:
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Since then, she's just been saying that it's over (and I know it's not), but I just have not wanted to confront her with evidence any more because of the major LBs they turned into.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>You know and she knows you know. Let it be at that. Anything else just becomes a demand or a judgement or results in angry outbursts.<hr></blockquote><p>Do you really think she knows I know? I mean I know I say it, write it, have brought it up, but I act like everything's fine, and I love her, and we're doing great...I mean, like we're doing pretty good, that I'm giving her time, being patient...but I've told her I know; I just don't have proof (or shown it to her) since I stopped snooping.<p>Is this something I should bring up more forcefully? At least sometimes? or should I just let it be?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> quote:
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So she's kinda' in a good place, where she might think I believe her, or she knows she handled the evidence in a way that will probably prevent me from doing it again, and she's settled into this gliding mode where everything's just peachy, and I'm sometimes seething...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>If you are talking to SH on a regular basis, trust me, he won't let this "gliding" go on forever. He'll come up with a way for you to shake things up. <hr></blockquote><p>I agree. It's been said here before; let the MC bring up the "delicate" subjects. My fear is she'll just stop going when he does...has done it twice before. I told him that, though, so he should be prepared. I'm sure he will be!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In the meantime - work on acceptance. This is who she is right now. She's not the woman you want or wish she was.<hr></blockquote><p>I am trying. It's so hard though...the person you love, have shared 30 years of your life with...hard to believe you've been living with a stranger. Getting better at this, though. I'm feeling a lot stonger; it just hurts so much to feel like you're breaking away...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have 2 more books for your reading list - the first one which you should RUN to B&N immediately to get.<p>1. The Language of Letting Go by Melody Beattie
2. The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman
<hr></blockquote><p>Thanks! I'll get these right away.

Cali; love your handle...it's the name of the town I was born in.<p>you said:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> How long since you discovered MB? The Harley's recommend a general...varies by situation and person...6 month period. <hr></blockquote><p>I discovered Divorce Busting first, about 2 months after DDay (6 months ago) and MB shortly thereafter. Didn't come to the boards until much later...reading, reading, reading.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>IF THE A CONTINUES AND YOU FEEL YOUR LOVE BANK DRAINING... then plan b. <hr></blockquote><p>I've got it all ready to go. Still hanging on, still OK in Plan A, and hopeful not to have to move to B. Have a lot of faith in Steve H.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I'm going to go even further in that I did a really 'shakey' plan A for 3-4 months... my best plan A started in October... H ended contact on his own...mostly in January.... BUT THAT IT WAS ONLY IN FEBRUARY THAT I GAVE THE WHOLE THING TO GOD. <p>March and April and now May have been NOTHING short of miraculous...<p>Give it up that you can control the outcome by plan A or plan B... give it up and give it to a HIGHER POWER! DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO MOVE ON AND BECOME A WHOLE... FUNCTIONING... JOYFUL PERSON! <hr></blockquote><p>I know. Certainly my Plan A was very shaky at first...but it's been pretty solid for about 4 months. She's even recognized it (not as Plan A, obviously, but as serious improvements)<p>I know I have to "give it up", it's just very hard...I'm way too left-brained! A Project Manager of all things!!! Jeez! even my career choice is against me here! ;-)<p>Thanks Cali!

I guess I forgot a very important point (Thanks to a friend who emailed me and reminded me!)<p>My W had another A 14 years ago. A short PA that ended when it was discovered.<p>It was nasty, I didn't know anything about MB or anything like it. Basically forced her to end it, and she did, but we never worked thru it at all. Never talked about it again, I never brought it up in anger or anything.<p>But I'm sure it affected me, and it affected how I looked at her and acted with her (I realize this now)<p>She says I made her feel "small", and I guess I never really forgave, I thought I had, who knows? Consciously I did not hold it against her at all. I probably did, though subconsciously.<p>She's very defensive about this, and obviously links them both. Says things like "It's always my fault, I'm always the one who has to end up apologizing, it always come back to this! I'm always the one who is wrong!"<p>So clearly, it's a major obstacle to acceptance and admission of this current A....and for me, the very best reason why this time it either has to be "fixed" the right way, or no way...no half-measures this time around. It has hurt us way too much, for way too many years, having not addressed it back then.

Hi Space ~<p>You've let her know that you still suspect right?<p>Just let it drop. There's no point. You'll be draining her love bank, and simply frustrating yourself.<p>Nothing has changed right?<p>So why would you think that THIS time, or if you just said it in a different way, that THIS time, she'll admit it and stop it?<p>You and I both know that she'll just lie, and be ticked, and you'll keep hurting and focusing on her...and on and on the cycle keeps turning.<p>Just leave it alone. <p>My husband knew that I knew, I was divorcing him! <p>Once I started accepting who he was, rather than trying to force him into being someone I wanted him to be, I didn't have to worry about wether or not he knew if I knew, etc. It wasn't important. I just nodded my head and made noncommittal noises to whatever he said - I really didn't care if he thought I believed him or not. You see, I wasn't focused on him - I was focused on me.

Spacecase;<p>How did I do it? Actually my ex-H had a string of affairs, not just one, if that makes any difference. How did I do it? Like everyone else here is doing it. At some point I realized that he was going to do what he was going to do and I needed to take care of ME. Though I did not have the MB material, I essentially Plan A’d for a very long time. Some how through it all, I grew into a stronger person whom I really like. He stayed in his demented world. We separated in 1996, divorced in 1997.
The situation in my new marriage is different… he admits everything and is working like crazy on the relationship with me.<p>I too think that a couple cannot go on with out the truth being place in the open. This is one of the points that I disagree with the Divorce Busting concepts. I believe that the WS opening up the BS and being radically honest about the affair(s) is a remarkable healing process for both the BS and the WS. <p>As long as my ex-H could pretend he was someone he was not, our situation could not improve. In my previous marriage we had no ‘radical honesty’, far too much privacy. Essentially my ex-h was living a separate life that he liked to believe I knew nothing about. He even had all of his mail and his financial papers at his mom’s house so that I could not see them. <p>In my current marriage, since d-day, we practice radical honesty and no privacy. It’s a wonderful, liberating approach to life. My current H is a totally different kind of man. He did some pretty stupid things early on in our relationship, but he takes full responsibility for them.
I've read that this is indeed, sometimes the case; it just seems like so many of the In my current marriage we follow the MB concepts very closely.

My husband sounds like your wife.<p>He has lied and denied every detail of his affair--until I discovered the truth on my own. My questions were met with lies (Did you have sex with her? Did you plan to move in with her? Did you plan to divorce me for her?) When I did get the truths--on my own--and faced my husband with them, he responded with rage and anger.<p>He will not admit to anything. He will not tell me anything.<p>The only proof I have is the year's worth of IM that was recorded on his computer, a pair of panties, a few photographs, and one drunken jovial confession to "having a older woman."<p>Not only will he not talk about it, he will not read books, go to counseling, or even read my posts here.<p>He has thrown out every artifact concerning the affair--his bathrobe, the blanket on the bed that they had sex on, her photographs, her letters. He tore up all papers concerning her and flushed them down the toilet.<p>He will not speak about her. All he will say is that she was nothing special, he didn't love her (he told her he did a jillion times) but she didn't make him crazy like I did.<p>Yet, withdrawal from her was horrible for him. And they maintained internet contact for a while after the affair, and while he did, he was extremely hostile towards me.<p>The whole time he was seeing her, he professed that he did love me, but we "had too many problems." <p>While we were separated, he called many times and asked me to return to him, telling me that he wanted the marriage and was willing to work on it.<p>However, his idea of "work" is to completely bury the fact that he had an affair in the backyard. In essence, I was to do the work. If I was nice to him and treated him like a king, then he was happy, and then we could all be happy.<p>When I bring up his infidelity, he becomes angry. He did not disclose his e-mail address to me. He continued to party and look at porn for a while--I drew the line right there, and after a year or so, he finally got the hint that I was not going to stay with him if he kept behaving like that.<p>No "recovery program" was in order for us. Recovery program was for me to just "get over it."<p>No, it's not fair. I know.<p>We have our days, but I keep plodding along. Usually he's a very nice man these days--still a workaholic and still has trouble treating me with affection. But it's tolerable.<p>I guess every marriage is different, just like every person is different. You just need to feel her out and avoid making her mad (by bringing up her mistakes) if that is what it will take.<p>Lame advice, I know.

BR, you said:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Once I started accepting who he was, rather than trying to force him into being someone I wanted him to be, I didn't have to worry about wether or not he knew if I knew, etc. It wasn't important. I just nodded my head and made noncommittal noises to whatever he said - I really didn't care if he thought I believed him or not. You see, I wasn't focused on him - I was focused on me.
<hr></blockquote><p>OK, I understand...how does this lead to recovery?
Or how did it then evolve into recovery for you?<p>CAN you really recover without some degree of confession and remorse? Some degree of "new rules" (MB principles)? Is it a real recovery? Is it a M built on something more solid than it was before?

BZ,<p>It sounds to me like you have just stayed in a bad M? Sure, I don't know the whole picture, but it would appear from your short description that you are just setting yourself up for more pain forever. If no "enlightenment" occurs, if no changes are made, if no realization/admission of wrongdoing happens...you're just pretending it's OK, aren't you? Aren't you giving up on many of your ENs? Won't YOU be susceptible to "wander"?<p>Sure, we all choose what we can/are willing to live with (as I did for many years), and many of us are OK with it, I just can't see myself doing it again after this A, and especially after learning all I've learned about how it could be better, and about good Rs, and solid Ms.

I thought I'd re-post the original "Scenario" since I added some stuff I'd forgotten, and has come out in the thread.<p>Scenario:
• W had a short EA/PA with gym instructor 14 years ago
• I “forced” the end of that A, we never dealt with it; why, how, changes, etc.
• I never brought it up in anger or in any other way
• Subconsciously, I believe, I probably did hold it against her for all these years
• She says “you made me feel small”, and she’s probably right. My respect for her diminished.
• We never dealt with it, I was never conscious of the damage it did; this was a big mistake for us. We’ve probably been paying for it all these years in many ways.
• EA discovered 8 months ago, going on since approx 11/01
• My initial reaction was crazy, screaming, threat to throw her out, all the no-no stuff.
• Begging, pleading, negotiating; you know the routine
• 2 months of fights, arguments, accusations, all the nasty blue-meanie stuff
• At about 2 months, discovered “Divorce Remedy”, MB shortly thereafter, started putting into practice.
• Probably doing a “good” Plan A since about month 4 after DDay
• Lies, lies, lies, and only lies; about the A, the involvement, the contact, the reasons
• When confronted with evidence, hysterical screaming about her privacy, not possible to address evidence or what it means, or that it confirms the lies.
• WW does not acknowledge this has hurt me, us, M
• WW has not shown remorse of any kind
• WW feels she “has done nothing wrong”
• WW feels it is her “right” to have this R, and that I have no right to ask or know about it
• WW does not see that A and contact have to end
• WW does not see that the lies have to stop
• WW does not see that we need to deal with this
• WW does not acknowledge there is a “secret second life”
• WW has said that she wants M to continue and to improve
• WW has made great strides in fulfilling BS’s ENs
• WW believes doing this “should be enough” to show her commitment to M and BS
• BS has acknowledged and shown remorse for not fulfilling ENs
• BS has made great strides in fulfilling WW’s ENs
• BS has Plan A’d his b--- off
• BS has LB’d quite a bit at the beginning, brought under control
• BS and WW have been to IC and joint MC, WW has walked out of MC every time the lies are exposed
• BS has expressed desire to re-build, indicated patience will not last forever, offered to help WW in every way possible, asked for commitment to a “program” (hopefully Harley)
• WW does not want to talk about R, plan, issues
• WW does talk of the future, all the time
• WW has lied in the same way to her family, sister, close friends, etc.
• WW does not respond to or comment about BS’s letters, articles, books<p>OK, “old-timers”, what is the Harley formula for this one?
This in not a test, I have tried to stick to all MB principles, have prepared myself for D, or Plan B, what do I do?!?!?!?!?!

SC:<p>"but I'm afraid she's in the "spying on her is worse that anything SHE's done, even if you've proven the lies"<p>This is so darned familiar! I think this kind of reaction is probably my best gas gauge for determining just where my W is regarding "recovery." Definitely not there yet. I don't snoop anymore, but I bet I'd get a modest angry response if I did. I think she's getting more "prepared" for my need for radical honesty, too. So progress is evident. <p>SC, use that kind of reaction to your probing (without LBing if possible) as a means of determining where she's at, if she won't come out and tell you. It's amazing just how predictable this behavior truly is.

SC:<p>Let us know how things go between you after her session with S.H. (today, right?).<p>persevere

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>CAN you really recover without some degree of confession and remorse? Some degree of "new rules" (MB principles)? Is it a real recovery? Is it a M built on something more solid than it was before? <hr></blockquote><p>I have been struggling with this too, Spacecase. And this is where I am and what he has said to me: "Why must it be in MY (BS)time?" "I (FWH) am not going to do this the same way you (BS)."<p>So I am focusing on me and FWH sees this. I am trusting in God and that he will take care of me and my marriage. I have placed my H in His hands, because He is the only one who can work in my H's life.<p>I think that's what BR means by acceptance and expectations. <p>When we give up the need for it to be done the way we THINK it should and, in the TIME we think it should and, HOW it should and focus our energies where WE have the CONTROL--OURSELVES, YOU will feel more peace and I BELIEVE will see true MIRACLES occur.<p>Cali

Cali:<p>Very well said. I agree. I may never get my W to accept MB principles, so I'll have to decide whether our recovery, when it starts, is sufficient to avoid another A, or any other problem within our M repeating itself.<p>I think I'm starting to see signs that my W is truly thinking about HER role in our M problems, without blaming me for everything. She's doing this separate from the no contact problem, probably because she feels she's truly breaking it off with OM in her way. Which leaves me to determine for myself at some point, whether the A has been closed to my satisfaction. AND, whether we can/are addressing our M problems sufficiently to insure they don't recur.<p>Take care,

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>...SC, use that kind of reaction to your probing (without LBing if possible) as a means of determining where she's at, if she won't come out and tell you. It's amazing just how predictable this behavior truly is.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You mean to subtly probe her? Like maybe ask nicely if she's spoken with OM or something like that?
Or maybe something less pointed; like would you let me see you cell statement?<p>I did not catch your drift, 2Long. Is the idea to gauge her changing (or not) reaction to this type of openess?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:<p>Let us know how things go between you after her session with S.H. (today, right?).<p>persevere</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, the good news is, she said she liked it. That she prefers to counsel with a man...which was interesting; I would never have predicted that.<p>She said she liked it, that Steve was very nice, and funny. And that he told her he had another session with me tomorrow and he suggested we then schedule a joint session. And she didn't object, so maybe we're going to get somewhere...I'll see what Steve has to say to me tomorrow.<p>[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cali:
<strong><p>I have been struggling with this too, Spacecase. And this is where I am and what he has said to me: "Why must it be in MY (BS)time?" "I (FWH) am not going to do this the same way you (BS)."<p>So I am focusing on me and FWH sees this. I am trusting in God and that he will take care of me and my marriage. I have placed my H in His hands, because He is the only one who can work in my H's life.<p>I think that's what BR means by acceptance and expectations. <p>When we give up the need for it to be done the way we THINK it should and, in the TIME we think it should and, HOW it should and focus our energies where WE have the CONTROL--OURSELVES, YOU will feel more peace and I BELIEVE will see true MIRACLES occur.<p>Cali</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I guess you have more faith than I...<p>As I've read and learned about all this (Rs, Ms, As) I have seen, for the first time in many cases, many many things that are wrong with my M. Wrong with me and the way I do things, wrong with my W and the way she does things, and wrong in the way we react or approach something...and I guess I've come to feel that I would need SOME changes to take place, in a conscious and deliberate fashion, before I'd be willing to just accept and move on.<p>Now I don't mean we have to create a "by the MB book" M, but I'd like to at least see some acceptance on both our parts that some of it is good and will prevent more damage in the future, and to implement at least SOME of it. Or maybe just to reach an agreement that we both have issues we need to deal with, and willingness to hear, see and undestandand each others' and work on them. That the R has issues it needs to take care of, and the committment to do that, to work on that.<p>Maybe then I'd feel more comfortable moving forward as a M. As we stand right now, I feel we're in the air. I don't know if we're headed towards recovery or divorce, so I'd at least like to see some concrete desire, willingness to move in either direction, and I guess I'm looking for concrete signals that will point to that...whichever way it goes.<p>Is this unreasonable? I'll tell you, I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I will accept that it's OK for my W to have parts of her life and Rs that I do not know about, cannot know about...I could live without TOTAL radical honesty, but not with that.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I feel we're in the air. I don't know if we're headed towards recovery or divorce, so I'd at least like to see some concrete desire, willingness to move in either direction, and I guess I'm looking for concrete signals that will point to that...whichever way it goes. <hr></blockquote><p>I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THIS!!! I wrote post after post about "limboland." What it boiled down to was that I was making it about ME and what I needed WHEN I NEEDED IT. <p>Nobody's saying accept this FOREVER... but maybe your test is patience... and can you truly submit to God's Will in your life?<p>This isn't something that I learned. BINGO!--Lesson over. This is something that I have to 'relearn' daily... this is something I have to pray about constantly. This is something I am tested on again and again...<p>...but do I give up because it is a struggle? because it's not going MY way? <p>Spacecase, I have seen too many miracles in my life NOT to have faith.<p>Cali

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Cali:<p>Very well said. I agree. I may never get my W to accept MB principles, so I'll have to decide whether our recovery, when it starts, is sufficient to avoid another A, or any other problem within our M repeating itself.<p>I think I'm starting to see signs that my W is truly thinking about HER role in our M problems, without blaming me for everything. She's doing this separate from the no contact problem, probably because she feels she's truly breaking it off with OM in her way. Which leaves me to determine for myself at some point, whether the A has been closed to my satisfaction. AND, whether we can/are addressing our M problems sufficiently to insure they don't recur.<p>Take care,</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think this is exactly what I am looking for. A reasonably good level of acceptance of change, honesty, etc. so I can feel like we're not likely to commit the same mistakes again. The more the better, but at least enough to feel comfortable.