I'll make this real quick - H is out of the house for only a few minutes - we have a Mac computer - H knows how to clear the History - it also has a function "Get info" which tells you when the last time website was visited - so if he bothers to use this function he can tell if someone has checked it at a different time than him. H has guarded his e-mail and cellphone use ferociously, always careful to clear history - I think he could still be in e-mail contact with OW but have no way of knowing for sure - would need to put Spector on computer to check without him knowing. I don't have credit card to buy Spector with without his knowledge. Also afraid of what he would do if he found out. (He has exploded at me and been really scary - he is now in IC and I think he's working on anger management, but still not talking to me about any of his feelings and not yet "ready" to go to MC).
Now - he has left the house, having checked his Yahoo ac without clearing the history? Should I look at it - or is it too big a risk.
I'm shaking at the thought of getting caught and what I might find, both - being lied to is such a bad feeling to have to live with.<p>Anybody know what they think I should do?
Won't be able to check your answers until tomorrow and by then it will be too late. Am scared he is setting a trap for me, so I'm posting to you instead. Help!<p>Odile

Relax!
No rush to all of this. There will be plenty of opportunities to spy. If you get caught now, it makes the road back all the longer, because you'll turn it into a big LBer!!! So it is better to work within yourself first.
The sad truth is if he is lying to you, he'll do it again and again to hide everything, so you can try the spying when you think you can handle it...<p>Also, spying is only for solidifying the truth. Nothing else! If you find something, you can't reveal it to him anyway...<p>Good Luck!<p>Sweden

O,
I think Sweden's right. It makes no sense to keep falling into the trap of catching him/fighting about it. Believe me; I did that for a long, long time.<p>Once you do it once or twice, if the result you hope for, (which is admission/acknowledgement and the search for a solution), does not come, it makes no sense to keep doing it. Same exact thing with me.<p>We've let her go on about her business, while Steve works on her, I Plan A and learn more, get stronger, and once she's "ready" to deal with the reality, only then will it be time to confront again. But when does that happen? In my case pretty soon, as soon as I get definitive confirmation because Steve feels she's ready and it's time to "shoot the elephant" before we go much further, BUT, and that's a big BUT, I am ALSO ready to go to Plan B immediately if her response is still the same as before.<p>In other words, we've brought things to the point where there's no going back; either she gets it and is prepared to do something about it now, or she doesn't and has to face the reality of what it will be like to lose me.<p>You need to be at a point like that, where both of you have reached certain milestones, and then it may be time to spy and confront.<p>I'm sorry you are going through this; I know how hard it is, how very, very painful it is to just allow your WS to continue an external R and pretend there's nothing wrong. I know this all too well, and I know it's not easy.<p>Hang in there. Be strong, try to ignore it as much as you can, to realize that there's nothing you can do about it right now, and keep moving yourself forward to where YOU need to be as an individual. Yopu cannot change or control what he does; you can change and control what you do and how you feel. Be strong!!! Big HUG!!!

Odile,
Good to here from you again. Did you have a good weekend? Mine as good as can be expected. I had a great Father's day. Just enjoyed me boys all day.<p>I think you can check the history without him knowing. If you can, go ahead and do it if you think it will make you feel better. I do not want to see that you are being controlled by him. <p>However, I do not think that it is better that you share your feelings with him about all of this. If you two are truly in recovery, then you both should be using radical honesty. That would mean that you should be sharing your feelings with him about this concentrating on how his actions are making you feel not that you think he is having an affair. He should know that if he is doing things especially suspicious that you will get suspicious, and he should be protecting your feelings and be aware that he is hurting you by not protecting your feelings. Unfortunately, this works only in a perfect world. I know that your husband is very controlling and has a bit of a temper, but like you said in the past, you have learned to dance around it.<p>Is it possible that you can share your feelings with him (the way I described above)without provoking anger? I just do not want to see you holding your feelings in like this.<p>For me I think I am just going to chill out a bit. My post to my wife the other day blew up in my face. I tried too hard I guess. I posted the story on onwardandup thread.

Hi guys,
Have to make it real quick - I didn't check his e-mail ac and thanks for helping me stay steady - every time I have done it in the past, I have ended up LB'ing because I would always confront him, instead of staying quiet and plan A'ing - of course, I didn't like what I saw - but still - oh well -

So I asked him to play backgammon instead - we had a good game - he won by one point and was happy - I'll tell you later what was said over the game - I let him know there's someone else interested in me, so he better watch out - a more subtle tactic?<p>But now I'm freaking out again - he's gone to get son from school, and left his History up again - only thing on there - his Yahoo ac. This AM, he had IC appt.<p>This is freaking me out.
Will be tomorrow before I can check in again.<p>Have a good night all - I played squash yesterday and am going to choir rehearsal tonight.
See yas,
Odile

I agree with the others. There is no rush right now. His contact with the OW, if that's what's happening, will continue. You will have plenty of opportunities.

Pissed off!
My H went to Germany for a week to do some work - he comes back next Wed. They're an hour ahead in Germany from us in the UK - so it's now 11 pm there - I just had to call him to get try to get a phone no. from him.<p>My BIL rang me from the States - needs a phone no of a mutual business contact of theirs. I looked in our Address Book on the computer and could only find one - I know my H has called this guy on his cellphone in France (I found this out when I looked at the phone bills) so I know my H has more phone nos. for this guy than the ones showing on the Address Book - but I guess they are probably on his mobile - that's where he puts all his phone nos. now and I (the spying wife) am now locked out of his mobile. Makes it a little difficult to take and pass on messages for him, like I am used to doing, and am expected to.<p>So I call him in Germany to tell him my BIL needs this phone no. (I shoulda told my BIL to call him himself). And my H answers and he's all happy and tells me all about his flight, then I tell him why I called and how I need this French guy's phone no. and my H says things like the guy is probably busy and that's why he hasn't called and he says he could be in X (town name) or X (town name) or wherever it is he lives, and one of the town names he mentioned was the town OW LIVES IN. It just slipped out by accident I guess. The other day on the computer, he left some stuff up - was looking at a website for a church in her town. So I couldn't help it - after we settled the business I rang for I said "And what does X(town name) have to do with it anyway - you've got it on the brain, H, and it shows!" "What, what? What are you talking about?" and then he went all quiet. He was so loving and kind at the airport when I dropped him off there today. But it's pretty obvious whose on his mind. I don't really care if I blew it. I don't care if I don't talk to him for a week either.<p>Odile

^^bump^^

Yikes Odile. Why a church website do you think? How long can you stand this? Is Plan B a possibility?

Back again -<p>Espoir - my H is a church organist and spends much of his webtime surfing sites which give all the details of pipe organs around the world - business info v useful for a recitalist - just so happened I saw he was checking out the organ in the church in the town where OW2 lives (gone back to live with BF). <p>Umm- how long can I go on like this? Good question - I don't know. But I have just come back from my first counselling appointment - and my goal in counselling is to figure out why I spend so much time obsessing on my H's problems and not getting on with my own development, because it is clear that I have let my feelings for him prevent me from succeeding at the many things I could have and still could succeed at, both career wise and personally - like being more sociable and being more active in my own interests.<p>So I'm back to trying to shift my attention away from what I THINK my H might be saying or doing or feeling (I don't know because these are his personal state secrets) behind my back, and get back to doing at least one positive thing every day to further myself. This is really a big part of Harley's plan A, is it not?
Surviving an affair is not just about the survival of the marriage, but about personal survival as well.
I'm flippin' mad at my H right now and it's a good thing he's not in the house. I have taken my wedding ring off while he's gone, just so I can feel what I feel like without it. I hope by the time he comes back, I can be pleasant to him again. At least I don't feel the physical weakness of depression any more.<p>Back to how long? I need to be able to be financially independent - I am very positive about my chances of doing an MA in my field, with the support of my boss (I work part-time) - this would take at least 2 years - my H seems positive about the idea. I feel I would be really screwing myself if I left before I accomplished this. Hell, I deserve to succeed at something for a change! Maybe in that time, my H will make progress in his IC and start taking responsibility for his abusive behaviour. I consider the deception of his EA's to be another type of abusive behaviour - common abusive behaviour (witholding the truth about things in order to be able to control). I have to fight this by making sure he does not control me, either by isolating me, or by preventing me from achieving my career goals. Allowing myself to become demoralized by his lying is giving him power over me.<p>It is a hard road, but its the one I'm on right now and I'm just starting to face up to it.<p>Thanks for looking in on me. I'm tired today - got a bad sore throat.<p>Odile

Hi Odile:<p>Thank you so much for your comments. I don't know what to say about spying but u know what my experience was. It was not good until I decided that I could live without my WS then it was ammunition for that concept. But when I had decided to work on my marriage and plan A, spying was extremely, extremely painful. I finally just told my WS about the spying to get him to stop sending that smut over our computer and carrying on his affair in our home. I decided not to be disrespected in that way and if he wanted to carry on with it then work for it. Don't sit in the comfort of my house and do it. No. Such nerve. But since you are afraid and it is a scary thing and your spouse has been scary don't do it if you can't keep quiet about it. A big LB! I am just like you. I could not keep my mouth shut one bit and would blow up and tell that I had the damned thing. He would just get more creative but not stop the affair. The thing is we have to realize that we are powerless in this. They have to stop it not us. But we can decide what we will endure in our own lives and how long we will endure it. That is your real choice, not whether or not to spy. In conclusion I would say don't spy but do turn your concern inward and worry some about you. Someone has got to. Okay? Take care. wu

Thanks wu,
Yes, I also think it's better for me not to spy - what I see upsets me too much, and then I confront him in anger. He has never been TOO sexual with her - it's more like outrageous flirting - but it IS sexual in overtones - he is certainly letting her know how fantastic he thinks she looks, how fantastic he thinks she is, and how special she is to him. You look at this stuff and think, this would be the kind of thing girl and boy say to each other when they are getting to know each other and say WOW - here's someone I'm really attracted to and am getting closer and closer to everyday. Only one problem - he is married and she is living with her BF - "the future father of my children" - he is 46 and she is 21. What is wrong with this picture????
So it's like on the internet, they can be alone and have this fantasy emotional space and kid themselves that they aren't doing anything wrong, and are just being "special friends" and besides, "my BF trusts me" (her).<p>I see it differently because I have to live with him and have already been subjected to emotional abuse before he found the joys of cyberspace. <p>I've been looking up stuff on the internet about abusive relationships and trying to understand my H's behaviour.<p>Under the list of abuse -<p>1. - he has hurt me or threatens to hurt me -
- I have been manhandled by the wrist for staying up late and reading when he wanted to go to bed - said he can't go to sleep without me in bed with him.
- I have been manhandled by the wrist for saying I did not want to sit down to lunch with him right now (that was the only time in the day I had to myself when the baby was asleep) - I said I made all the dinners, why couldn't he take responsibility for lunch, and I didn't always want to eat - sometimes I wanted to write, sometimes I needed to run errands in town
- he smashed a hole in the wall next to me with the door when I refused to be interrogated about a credit card bill - I said I would discuss it with him later when he stopped shouting at me
- he slammed a pillow down on the bed next to my head, in our first week of marriage, after I asked him why he had stayed out so late with a friend without calling me. This was the first time he was aggressive and I wasn't expecting it.
- he grabbed my wrist and forcibly showed me how to open and close a car door "correctly" - then left me in the parking lot and walked home because he was too mad over that to be in the same car with me. When I got home I said "Why did you do that? You don't have to treat me like a child." (I had never been treated like that before, and we were still newlyweds) - he was making dinner in the kitchen - I was standing by the front door. He turned and threw all the dinner at me - raw meat, bags of tortilla chips, etc.
- since D-day when I exposed his secret friendships, twice he has been really explosively scary - screaming at me, shouting at me that I am sick and this is all my fault, calling me names, "stupid *****, f*** *****, stupid f***ing cow," throwing things at me (pillows again - he said he threw these because he knew they wouldn't hurt me), kicking things at me, slamming doors, threatening to pour a glass of water over my head while I was crying.<p>2. - Emotional - calling you names, yelling at you, putting you down, trying to control your actions. (see above). He makes jokes about me - that I'm so intelligent and on my own planet - once over dinner with a friend, we were talking about church history, and he said "go on, show off your knowledge of Canon Law!" - he belittles my intelligence like this in front of other people. Once I went out to the town on some errands and said I would be back in an hour - I was later than that (not much) and he was outside our house on the sidewalk, waiting for me, looking at his watch. When I am on the phone, he asks me who I am talking to. If I did the same to him, he would consider that an invasion of his privacy.<p>Financial - controlling all assets and your access to them.
- he resisted ferociously having a joint bank account.
- when I worked I only had access to my money, never his.
- when I was a SAHM, he controlled all the money through his bank account and doled it out to me only on request - he made me account for how I had spent it. I couldn't go shopping when I needed to, only if I had remembered to ask him for money and given him time to go to a cash machine to get some out for me. I was always being berated for not remembering to ask when I needed it.<p>Another website gives some ideas about "mind control"<p>-black and white thinking - this describes my H - lots of judgemental comments about other people
-adopt "loaded language" (characterized by "thought-terminating cliches") - my H's favourite expression is "emotional blackmail" - he accuses me of this when I try to express my feelings about what he is doing and how he treats me
-thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts. I am told to stop being negative - that I am being negative when I question his behaviour.
- no critical questions about the abuser allowed. Abused told to come up with "one good reason", which never fits as a "good enough reason" to the abuser.
- no alternative belief systems viewed as good. My H is a dogmatic Catholic who is derogatory about even other denominations, as well as other religions.<p>Information control -
---use of deception a. deliberately holding back information - b. distorting info to make it acceptable - c. outright lying
(sound familiar to anyone? - affairs are a form of abuse to the WS)
---compartmentalization of info -
a. info is not freely accessible - b. abuser decides who needs to know what<p>Emotional control -
---Manipulate and narrow the range of a person's feelings.
---Excessive use of guilt
1. Who you are (not living up to your potential) 2. Your family (my H makes comments about the X genes, meaning my family - and brings my family into arguments - when I shout back at him, he says I'm just like my father - he means this in a disrespectful way)
3.Your past - he lets me know he remembers my past mistakes with other R.<p>
Well - I could go on - <p>Positive signs? My H is in counselling and his abusive behaviour shows signs of changing. Before I threatened plan B, I confronted him about his "bullying" and said that was the real problem between us. It is. I think he "got it" and decided to go into counselling because he realizes his behaviour is really out of line with what he knows is good behaviour. So I believe he is trying to handle this. But it is a long, slow process and it involves him facing the demons of his past - the abuse he suffered at the hands of his parents which he is perpetuating in his R with me.<p>Interesting that he has not committed to visiting his parents this year - I heard him on the phone with his dad the other night, who was obviously asking him when we would come to visit them. My H was very reserved in the way he spoke to his dad, and refused to make any commitments one way or the other.
This is a major source of contention between us - I hate spending time with his parents because they abuse him emotionally and I can't stand watching it, and we always fight afterwards - my H has actually INCREASED the amount of time we have spent with parents year on year - giving in to them as they have got older and older - his brother sees this too and recognizes it as a sign there is something wrong - his brother is much further ahead in his own counselling experience and refuses to spend more than 2 days with parents. My H's brother supports my H staying in counselling. Parents behaviour is obsessive topic of discussion at all family gatherings where they are not present.<p>I recognize my marriage is not right and am finally standing up to say - this is abusive and has to stop. I think my H wants to handle his own abusive behaviour - he has the support of his brother and grown nephew in doing this. The lit I have read says the only way abuse can stop is for abuser to take responsibility. i see my H trying to take responsibility, but this is a long process. I only hope his EA's do not become too entrenched before he realizes that they are also just another form of abuse and a symptom of his problems. Only when he does realize this will he stop.<p>My spying on him and confronting him is not going to have the effect of stopping it.<p>I have to plan A - plan A - plan A - for myself.<p>Geez, this is long, but maybe someone else will find it helpful - I see a lot of people on these boards who I think are involved in abusive R - (Terrified and Honey come to mind).<p>Gotta go get some breakfast!<p>Odile

Odile:<p>I had no idea! Please take care of yourself. I am glad to hear that he is in counseling and it seems to be working. What about you? Are you in counseling? Affairs are one thing, abuse is another. Yes do plan A because it makes you take care of you and your boys. A Good Thing. Then if his counseling stops working you will know what you will and will not take. Get strong girl. Take good care. Thinking of you. wu [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Hiwu,
Yes, I am in counselling, too - just started on Friday - with the same Christian counselling service my H is with. I have been trying since June of last year to get my H to go to MC, but no real success.<p>Brief history - found out H having "special friendship" with daughter of best friend June 01 - conducted through cell phone - mostly distance R - he only saw her in company of others once a week - private R started and maintained through cellphone - TXT MSG and long conversations on our landline. Basically a fantasy R.<p>I started plan A immediately as best I could without knowing about MB. Basically I had already started plan A 9 months earlier - I had realized I was getting nowhere with confrontations with H and had eliminated "rows" from by behaviour - except once - big argument over what kind of computer table to buy (looking back, I think he picked this fight with me on purpose - he was already involved with OW1 and I was doing very well, we were doing very well, he had to have a reason to justify his behaviour - I remember it well because it came completely out of the blue and he was so cruel and so irrational).<p>Well - when plan A did not work at stopping his contact with her, I intervened behind his back - told her aunt I was worried about their friendship and asked her advice - SHE told me the girl's father was also worried and had ALREADY talked to my H about it 6 MONTHS earlier - also sister had found all my H's saved msgs on her cellphone and fought with her about it, and gone to her dad - so, younger sister can tell the difference between right and wrong, older sister can't? Father then rang me up - I said it was becoming clear to me that we were having marriage problems and I didn't think it was fair to his daughter for her to be involved. True. He sat his daughter down and questioned her. She swore blind she had no interest whatsoever in my H. Dad forbid her to contact him "because it upsets his wife". Dad also asked my H not to involve his daughter in his marriage problems. Dad was instrumental in helping my H get another job, so regular contact between my H and his daughter ceased.<p>H starts new job (very happy). I support my H all the way in his new job. It is the perfect job for him and I am so happy it came up for him. I believe it is a gift from God - he is finally doing what he should be doing - I'm sure some of his unhappiness had to do with the frustration he experienced in his work before.<p>I thought things were going v well between us - there were no fights, we seemed to have weathered the storm and come out closer. But H began to feel very distant - not interested in me much. I got suspicious.<p>In Feb, found out he had been meeting OW2 behind my back since Oct 01 and was now e-mailing her - by the time I discovered their "friendship" she was signing herself with a long list of all the pet names he had given her, and he was saying "I'll be thinking of you tomorrow" and "Beg wet ones in all the right places", etc.<p>I hit the roof - things got worse - he was really angry that I had spied on him - called me "The Hacker" - goaded me into another argument and this time I had had it and I punched him - boy he has never let me forget that.<p>Then I found MB and started plan A - told my H I would go to any MC he chose - H made no moves towards counselling - I went to our parish priest for a few sessions - H went to him after a month - came home from that session and exploded at me - I was finally able to say a couple of days later that the real problem between us was his bullying, which had been going on since the beginning of our married life, and I was willing to stay with him IF he would face up to his demons and get help. Things instantly improved - I know my H parents well and I have great compassion for my H - he is a wonderful man, extraordinarily talented, who has been ruthlessly emotionally abused by both parents - what he does are all defense mechanisms against how he was raised - but I do not have to live as the victim of the abuse he is now perpetuating.<p>Contact however, with OW2 did not stop and from spying, I saw that I was now 2nd choice as a companion - he asked me to go out with him only after she turned him down one night. After all I had been through, that was the final straw - I was not going to take being 2nd in my marriage. I asked him to leave at Easter. Over several days, I hammered the point home clearly and calmly because I was through. That was when he made the move to go into counselling. When he did, he said he had made an appt for himself, "because I am the problem". So I decided to go forwards, since he was now in counselling - I had told him I would support him through him facing his demons, and I will.<p>But I believe contact with OW2 is still continuing - no proof, just intuition - don't want to go back to spying - serves no useful purpose - have been reading a lot on abusive relationships and now see all the signs a lot more clearly (I used to just explain it by saying that he was "difficult" because he is such a creative person). Don't believe problems with OW will ever change unless his therapy helps him see that this is just another form of abuse, and that he shouldn't have an overwhelming need for OW "special friendships" when he has a wife who loves him. In other words, he has to come out of his own fog and choose to be the kind, loving, dedicated man of integrity I know he can be of his own free will, and stop blaming me for the breakdown and bad atmosphere between us.<p>I have been doing really well at plan A - and we WERE doing really well until 31 May, when I said the wrong things and he exploded at me again. The point is - there has NEVER been any talking about our feelings in the whole of our R - any attempt to draw him out on my part results in abuse. This is the pattern I see now. <p>So I ask myself, what good is plan A? In an abusive R - plan A does not reward you with results that are "real" - plan A is "not rocking the boat" - in an abusive R, whenever you "rock the boat" you get it in the neck again no matter how good things are between you. Plan A in my marriage is now mostly for me. But I can continue to be loving by doing the things that I was doing before - finding one good thing that I admire about him every day and complimenting him, trying to play games with him (backgammon, boules) which bring us together without having to talk, trying to go out (to films - where we don't have to talk).<p>Still, I will not feel that we are "in recovery" until we can begin to talk without fear of violence. This is a must. I have learned that with an abusive R, therapy must deal with 1) the abuse 2) all other problems. From what I have read, there is hope for abusive R only if the abuser takes responsibility and works to stop his abusive behaviour. I think this is what my H is doing, but I haven't seen any real proof yet - but I also know it is a long haul.<p>I have loved my H very deeply - I don't have perfect love - I have loved him with all the ordinary human love one person can give to another which is all I can do - I know that I am not perfect, but I don't think I have to be perfect in order to be loved. I believe my H deserves to be loved and did not deserve to be abused by his parents. But if he continues to abuse me, then I will eventually leave. Right now, I am not financially able to do that, so we have this window, where I need to gain my qualifications, and he has a chance to deal with his demons. Just pray for us, guys. I love my H - he deserves better than the life he is living.<p>Odile