Well, after all I have been through with the WW's A and all, and her filing for DV, I have since had the time to "process" a lot of things. After 2 months of emotional turmoil, and having to deal with that, I have had time to move towards acceptance to a certain degree, and have realized that I will survive no matter the outcome. I prefer (right now) to try to make my M work, but if it doesn't, I will land on my feet.<p>I truly think, and so do other people close to the WW, the A is over. And has been basically since a week or so after D-day. WW said that they had mutually agreed that it was over a week before I found out. Still stands by that story. I do know, though, by her admission, that she had contact with him once after D-day, but not in the PA sense.<p>Although I have no proof at all, and really haven't discussed certain things in great detail with the WW when all of this came to light, I think the "breakup" probably wasn't mutual. I think the OM initiated the process. Why do I think that? Well, here is why......<p>Looking at it from strictly a man's point of view, being that I have never been a WS, I reached the following conclusion.<p>For the last 6 months of my WW's A, their PA had dwindled to nearly non-existant. I can say this with a great degree of confidence, since during this time frame, I can account for about probably 95% of the WW's spare time. Their EA was still on strong, with phone calls to each other, and their "after work" talks in various parking lots in pretty much broad daylight. She was never that much later than usual, and knowing her work schedule, and the commute time to home, they had probably 15-20 minutes at the most together.<p>From what I can gather through various sources, the OM was also "casanoving" with others during the time frame of the A with my WW. He, I am quite sure, had not established an emotional attachment with the WW. She definitely had established one with him, though. This by her own admission. He, on the other hand, was enjoying the physical aspect of the A, and since the time for that was "nipped in the bud" by my now decent working hours, had him at the point of giving a lot of attention to the WW with not a lot in return. He wasn't about to stand for that.<p>Hence....Her intitial walking out on the M. Before I discovered the A. Would give her more time for him. My discovering the A was unanticipated by either of them, and blew any plans they had to h3ll. That was when the OM informed my WW that he again thought it best to end it, as he was not going to jepoardize HIS W and D. Not to mention that he went on to explain to WW that if he DV'ed, he would be financially destroyed, and couldn't give her the things she was accustomed to from me. Also told her that he could never love her as much as me, because he could not have put up with her having an A on him. (Wait...wasn't she, though? WE were STILL enjoying all the benefits of M.....)Hmmm.....<p>Anyway, I have gotten off course, here. Need to get back on track to the topic.<p>I have played out many scenarios in my mind over the past several days. I am sure that most BS in my position do also. Every scenario imaginable. But there is one that keeps coming back in my mind over and over again.<p>I can picture the WW coming to me with sincere remorse, and truly sorry for what she has done, and asking (begging) for my forgiveness. I then become overjoyed. But not because I now see our M being put back together. Just the simple fact of actually seeing her remorseful. I can see that, and yet, because of what she has done, MY now not knowing whether or not I want the M to have a chance.<p>So...I am asking myself am I doing this for the reason of saving my M? Or am I doing this because I only need to feel that she has "righted" the wrong? Am I painstakingly busting my a$$ with her to have my M, or to have her remorse give me the closure? Could it possibly be that "closure" and "revenge" can somehow be related, in a sense? Maybe the remorse that she might truly show give me both closure AND revenge?<p>Oh my.....how the mind works....Do we REALLY know WHY we do the things we do when faced with our situations as BS's? Or has our experience just placed us into a "fog" of our own, and we justify our own reactions and responses?<p>Just some food for thought......<p>
hcii<p>[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: hcii ]</p>

Good questions hcii. I am in a similar place. My WH recently said he wanted to come home and try to work on our marriage. We will have a discussion tomorrow (Saturday) about what trying means.<p>Strangely, I have a nagging fear in the back of my mind that maybe I don't want the M. I've been plan A for five months and really believed that I loved my WH and wanted to try and work on a better marriage. <p>I told him last week I couldn't be patient forever and his reply was that he wanted to come home. At first I was on cloud nine (although I knew rationally that this would still be a tremendous amount of work). Now, for the last several days I am not looking forward to our conversation with anticipation, but with more than just a little bit of dread. Do I really want to try and work this out?<p>I suppose I won't know until I see him tomorrow and hear what he has to say. But, I did want you to know that you're not the only one wondering why/what do you really want from this. I think it's probably a pretty common feeling. After all, the BSs have been working hard in plan A with a goal of improving themselves (which makes you feel better and stronger) and the WS have been in continuing EAs or PAs and not really working on themselves and most are having pity partys for themselves. It's sort of ironic in that in many ways the BS becomes a more attractive person and the WS less attractive (I'm not referring to the purely physical sense of attractiveness but the overall approach to life).

Hello hcii,<p>Those thoughts you posted sound eerily familure. I started right into a Plan B because I didn't know about MB and some of the other sites.<p>I've run through just about every senerio in my mind and I've been trying to decide which is the proper course of action once I get the call (or email). At this point the only thing I am able to do is scare the crap out of myself. I know how I would like it to go, but what if it's something I havent thought of yet? What if she just yells and screams, or tries to put the guilt of her affair on my shoulders, What if she truely is sincere and wants to make things work? How do I know shes telling the truth this time? <p>We can run through every senerio we can imagine, but what is that really going to get us? Are we going to become better people because of it? Do we really think we would waste our time on this just for a taste of revenge later on?<p>Think about it. If that is all you really want is closure and vengence then that is all your going to get out of it.<p>If it's just part of this whole episode we all have to go through then maybe it's normal. <p>If not, we have to pick which side of the fence we need to be on when the time comes.<p>Your choice, Mine too. Hope we make the right decision.<p>Regards,
N61

All:<p>I haven't had to go to plan B yet (hope I don't have to), but I want to wish you all the best. I truly hope that eventually (hopefully soon), your WSs will realize what they had in your Ms and want to work with you.<p>best regards,

I now know the answer.....<p>Due to agreed order by the court, I was to leave the doors unlocked at 11:00 am for 2 hours, without me being present, for her to come and get the remainder of her personal items (very few).<p>Well....12:15 she calls to tell me she has completed removing her things. We hadn't spoken in over 2 weeks, since she filed for DV.<p>Hearing her voice hurt like hell. I am now miserable. No major conversation, probably no more than a minute long, and she was very cordial. So was I. I didn't ask, beg, or plead for anything, although my heart was busting at the seams to let her know how I feel.<p>I really didn't need that phone call, but at least now I have the answer to my question of closure.<p>I could have really, really, done without that. I feel no different now than I did the first day she walked out. My progression to acceptance has been shattered.<p>What do I do now? I want my wife in my life....<p>
hcii

((((hcii))))<p>I'm so sorry you are feeling bad... I guess you are going through withdrawal from her, and now that you've had contact, it starts all over again. <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> I saw my H for the first time in a week last night... it was less than I was hoping for.<p>Go out and do something - anything - if you can. Take care.

The same thing happens to me everytime I see or talk to my W. I just have to avoid contact with her.

hcii,<p>That is why I went to Plan B...hearing his voice started my pain all over again.<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

HC - Sorry to hear that things have gotten to the point they are. I know how the mind goes through the various scenarios, and how maddening that can be. I guess all you can do is stick to what you know to be true. I saw a lot of strength in your first paragraph. Try to focus on that. Also, I seem to recall in another post (at least I think it was you)where you said, "still, every breath I take is for her." If you truly feel that way, keep fighting for your M, regardless of how bad the odds may look right now.<p>Gratefully, I haven't been forced to deal with even a hint of divorce or anything. A is over, contact is very sporadic (more "run into" kind of thing a couple times). As I thought about the possibility of life without my wife, I concluded that, if I was back on the market and looking for a companion, I would look for the same qualities that are already there in my wife (minus the infidelity, of course!). Then I figure anyone new I met would probably have a skeleton or two in their closet, and then they'd have to figure me out, there's no guarantee that the next person would be faithful, etc. <p>Bottom line of all this is I decided to see this through all the way. I know what I'm dealing with. I learned enough of the A to know what it was (strong EA on both sides, by the way), I know it's over (sure hope I'm right about that one!), and I know that, if my wife fully and truly returns to our marriage, I can go forward in forgiveness and grace. <p>I pray the same for you, no matter what the outcome.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Also, I seem to recall in another post (at least I think it was you)where you said, "still, every breath I take is for her." <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, that was originally in my sig line. And is still probably true, though a lot of things have been happening lately with her filing for Dv and so.<p>Something I didn't put in the first post was that she actually called twice. The first time to let me know she was through removing her items. Then, 30 seconds later, she called and asked if she should "lock the door". The last call sort of got me. We ALWAYS lock the door if no one is here, and have for the 14 years we have been married. Heck...we would lock the doors if we were inside in "compromising" situations (showering, SF, etc.) So after a while today I STILL cannot think WHY she asked that question. Was it a moment of HER weakness wanting to hear ME?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> As I thought about the possibility of life without my wife, I concluded that, if I was back on the market and looking for a companion, I would look for the same qualities that are already there in my wife (minus the infidelity, of course!). Then I figure anyone new I met would probably have a skeleton or two in their closet, and then they'd have to figure me out, there's no guarantee that the next person would be faithful, etc. <hr></blockquote><p>SiSF,<p>That is my EXACT philosophy. Many times in the past few weeks people have asked how in the world could I ever want to live with her again. I found it is hard to explain that the number 1 reason is that after 14 years, knowing how deep my love is for her, that it is not so simple for me to throw it away. Couple that with what you have said, and my best course of action is to save my marriage.<p>I have never believed the saying of "once a cheater, always a cheater". She strayed on me because ALL of the dynamics for it to happen fell into place at the right time. But...some will argue (those who have never experienced it) that even so, she still made a conscious decision to do it. Even though that is true, what is hard to get across to people is one of the "dynamics" I was speaking of was her moment of weakness. The temptation for her caught her at a vulnerable time, and everything else fell into place, hence the A.<p>I truly think that eventually she will come around. But...I am pretty well convinced that will happen when I have withdrawn from her enough to refrain from getting involved with her again. The Dv will no doubt go through, as the time period here in KY has already elapsed to make a Dv final (60 days). So....we could be legally divorced today if we were in agreement on everything.<p>However, I am stalling the best I can. But I sometimes wonder if I am crazy for placing myself in this prolonged period of pain. I tend to be logical, and it seem that you are also (referring to your post I quoted), and I know that the longer I go without seeing or hearing from her, the days get ever so slightly easier. I am not ashamed of that fact, but merely I think that is reality for ALL of us. There is credence to the "out of sight, out of mind" theory. I may be wrong, but I don't think there is one single person on this board that can actually wait "forever" for their WS's to come out of the fog.<p>I am 41, and like you know that at that age, to get back in the "field", I am probably going to have to deal with an "ex", possibly children (nothing wrong with that), and who knows what baggage. Who is to say that the next woman in my life, should there be one, isn't living a life with strong feelings for her XH, and has just learned to deal with them and go on. Many marriages fail with LB$ still in the high range. The next person in my life may still carry that LB$ in her for her XH.<p>I honestly believe that my STBXW is in the same category, and just hasn't realized it yet. At almost 33, she faces the same set of circumstances that you and I do. There are not going to be many single mid-late 30's men running around (and to top that off, we live in a rural area, so the pickin' is slim), so she would have to possibly deal with an XW, or at the least, a long-term lover or live-in. This is going to sound degrading to my wife, but I don't mean it that way, but the fact of children would probably also come into play. Knowing her the way I think I do, since she has never had a child, I don't think she could be as receptive to helping raise another woman's child when she hasn't had one of her own.( Flame-proof suit on). I have read various articles that say that it is easier for men to handle the aspect of step-children than it is for women, when that "step-parent" has not experienced one of their own.<p>Sometimes I really believe that my WW is no longer in a major fog, and is truly sincere when she says that there can never be another "us". I do think, though, that her "infatuation" with the OM, even though he is out of the picture, are covering what feelings remain for me. But...after 14 years I know some feelings are there, and some pretty strong ones at that.<p>But right now I think that a bunch of dynamics are going to have to fall in place at the right time for my marriage to recover. My recovery, or possibilty of recovery, depends on the same set of circumstances, or dynamics if you wish, in order to even have a chance to begin to rebuild. With the mass confusion of emotions going on inside me, and I hope going on inside her head, the chances of them happening at the correct moment in time are slim. But I did not say never. Just that I feel the chances are slim. She really has shown NO effort to save our marriage, except for a small amount of time after D-day, which was the 1st of May. Since then, things have progressed downhill, although I could see and feel the downward spiral come to a stop sometimes, and maybe even "rise back" a bit, but all in all I think she is convinced in her mind that Dv is the way it has to be.<p>Back to my logical thinking again, I know there probably will be some kind of baggage that I will have to deal with should I have another relationship. But at least with my W, I KNOW that baggage BEFOREHAND.<p>hcii

Hcii: Something I didn't put in the first post was that she actually called twice. The first time to let me know she was through removing her items. Then, 30 seconds later, she called and asked if she should "lock the door". The last call sort of got me. We ALWAYS lock the door if no one is here, and have for the 14 years we have been married. Heck...we would lock the doors if we were inside in "compromising" situations (showering, SF, etc.) So after a while today I STILL cannot think WHY she asked that question. Was it a moment of HER weakness wanting to hear ME?<p>JR: This sort of struck me... This past week (Tuesday), WW e-mailed me, once at 4:34, next at 4:35. Weird!! They were really minor things, too. Of course, being a good little Plan B'er, I didn't respond. But the fact she's sent these messages in the first place sounds very similar to what your W did... Just confirming that yes, moose brain worms has a very consistent effect on its victims.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> JR: This sort of struck me... This past week (Tuesday), WW e-mailed me, once at 4:34, next at 4:35. Weird!! They were really minor things, too. Of course, being a good little Plan B'er, I didn't respond. But the fact she's sent these messages in the first place sounds very similar to what your W did... Just confirming that yes, moose brain worms has a very consistent effect on its victims.
<hr></blockquote><p>I shouldn't have spoken with my wife, either. But...it was to my cell phone so I didn't know who it was. If I had known it was her, I wouldn't have. #1, because of Plan B, and #2, because of exactly what effect it had on me.<p>I had mentioned I was stalling the DV earlier. I am doing that because even though KY is a "no-fault" state, I responded to the petition that I DENY the marriage is broken, and have reserved the right to "statutory court-ordered counseling". According to my attorney, that sets the stage for a hearing for "No fewer than 30, nor more than 60 days (OR longer if the court can't get to it)". Then, a hearing is set to determine whether or not to order the counseling, and if so, it's probably going to take a while for that. Then, back to court for a hearing on what the counselor says, throw in a continuance here and there, and I can probably hinder the finalization for 6 months or so.<p>Am I a glutton for punishment or what?<p>But then again....I told her a hundred times, if I told her once, I was NOT going to make it easy on her. I could settle with her right now with a lucrative settlement she has offered, but when she first said she had decided to file I told her that I would take my chances with a court ruling on the disposition of the property.<p>I may end up giving her the DV, but rest assured it will be because my LB$ is gone. Then, I guess, everything else becomes irrelevant.<p>hcii

No, you're not a glutton for punishment. You are simply an honorable man, trying to live up to the vows you made to your wife, and working hard to save your marriage so that, even if the final outcome isn't what you hope for, you can be at peace with yourself knowing you did everything you could to make it work.<p>Stay on that high road - you're doing the right thing. True love is worth the effort, even though the pain of pursuing it is unbearable at times.

shattered:<p>"Gratefully, I haven't been forced to deal with even a hint of divorce or anything. A is over, contact is very sporadic (more "run into" kind of thing a couple times). As I thought about the possibility of life without my wife, I concluded that, if I was back on the market and looking for a companion, I would look for the same qualities that are already there in my wife (minus the infidelity, of course!). Then I figure anyone new I met would probably have a skeleton or two in their closet, and then they'd have to figure me out, there's no guarantee that the next person would be faithful, etc. "<p>This is exactly the right way to deal with this situation. I agree 100%. Though my situation is far less severe than hcii's or J.R.'s, I still don't have a NC agreement with my W to assure me that the OM will be out of our lives for good. I'll need that. <p>How are you, by the way? Your sig line implies that things have gotten worse?<p>hcii: You've definitely grown considerably since I first saw your posts. Keep up the good work!<p>hcii and J.R.: That your WWs both called or emailed repeatedly for no reason tells me that they truly DO want to hear from you. My W did something like this when we had our biggest LB argument in early March. She threatened to leave each morning for the whole weekend, but almost immediately called me from where she was and asked if we could work on the house or something together. <p>Similarly, when we had another argument (though not heated, and no real LBing) in about early May (I think, can't remember for sure, but I could look up my posts and figure it ou), I went to work and she called me repeatedly to talk. I ignored her first 6 calls, then finally answered after I'd calmed down in my own mind (also, knowing she was going to her IC shortly afterward, so I wanted her to think about me when she went). She didn't want to talk about our argument, just about something superficial that had nothing to do with us. She does that a lot [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] , though thankfully, we haven't had any real arguments lately. But still, the NC problem isn't settled, and I really don't know if it will be. The clock is ticking, and I won't tolerate contact in the long term, but I'm doing pretty well in the interim.<p>Take care, folks,

2L - thanks for asking about me. I've been "lurking" only sporadically for a month or so. Things are actually OK lately. The "worse" reference in my sig line was the result of a phone conversation between my lovely wife and OM (which she initiated)when I went to pick up my youngest from college on 5/3. I had a strong sense that something was gonna go down when I was gone, so I had a tape recorder on our phone line. It was a nauseating call, especially since I thought we were well down the road to recovery at the time. Anyway, I think it shook her up a bit, as she realized afterward that I'm not going to put up with too much more. She's been pretty good since. She seems more remorseful and claims to know what she wants - ME! We've taken several trips together to try to rediscover "us" - so far so good. She still is struggling with "closure" with OM. But that's another topic. <p>Dealing with these long-term A's sucks, doesn't it? Hope you're having a good weekend!

siSF:<p>Yep. I remember when you were posting about that. <p>Our M sounds like it's been pretty similar to yours the past couple of months, with my W and I doing a lot of things alone together. It's very nice, but also similar to your situation in that my W can't seem to stop contact with her OM for work (and I think that's an excuse to say "hi", which she thinks is harmless, but is starting to realize differently). In her case, things really came to a head while we were leaving on vacation 2 weeks ago, because OM had just told her that OMW had trashed all his computer files and thrown him out ( [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] - and I can't stop grinning, thinking about it!). Mainly because I didn't behave similarly! We went on to have a very nice time alone together, and a couple of good talks. But in spite of all that, I still don't know what the long term will bring.<p>Hanging in there, though. Hope all you folks do so as well.