Well, sad that it's come to this... I'm in Plan B, let WW know that it was too painful to continue as-is, as it truly, truly is - that was on the 4th. Since then, she tried to send me a few e-mail messages (not critical to reply to) - that I didn't reply to. She's taken that now as a personal insult, I think. I had to send her a message yesterday - I've got movers coming in next week for some furniture, and I had to let her know. I also let her know I took the camping stuff, asking if that was okay. She'd also previously volunteered to look after our cats if needed - and I suggested that might be good since I'm probably going to be away from the 5th-8th.

Today, I see a message from her friend back home:

"I wouldn't let him know til the last minute and I would tell him you want the camping stuff.....he asked?"

Cute, huh? Hilarious that in a fog moment a while ago now, she said she never really did care for camping with me (a lie, BTW). Not to mention the fact that they're clearly playing games here.

SIGH. I feel like I'm dealing with some 6-year-olds.

I think my deal will be this... I WAS thinking of using the camping stuff next week - going somewhere remote to be alone. Now I'm thinking I'm still going away, but maybe stay in a nice hotel! I'll be glad to give her the camping stuff back - I can buy new stuff if I need it later. And as for the cats - if I don't hear by Monday, I'll make other arrangements, period - too bad, too late.

I realize snooping buys me little right now... other than to find out her state of mind... which I shouldn't worry about, right? Well... knowing this, I can draw a couple of conclusions... 1. WW is not just listening to her flakey friend, but trusting her judgment - ouch, 2. she's not really doing much to help herself if she's asking for advice on things that should be her own decisions, as simple as they are.

It does make me wonder about what I'm really doing here. I'm telling you - moving away is looking more and more attractive by the minute.

<small>[ June 29, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

NO NO NO...quit your tissy fit for a moment...take yur undies out of a bunch...take a few deep breaths.<p>You're snooping!!!!!!!!!! You figured out the hard way before that it doesn't do your state of mind any good! SO WHAT if her friend says this or does that...it DOES NOT give you ANY insight into what's in her head. I had TONS of thoughts...but my chearleader, to lean on just for support friends...never heard that part. There were TONS of thoughts...many angry, foggy ones...and many OTHER ones that inched there way in.<p>Do what you want on the 4th...but quit doing it to get back at or get back to her. Just take care of you and worry about you.

J.R.<p>You know what to do. You said it yourself.<p>Give her the f***in' camping gear and make your own arrangements for the cats, buy yourself some new stuff and go have fun!<p>Then, when you get back, return seamlessly to your plan B and let her stew in her failed juices (because her friend's "plan" will have failed and they won't even have the satisfaction of having evidence that they inconvenienced you - because you didn't call about the cats!).<p>You're a model, J.R. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

did she ask for the stuff or is it just in a note? maybe I am not reading clearly... sounds to me kinda like you read the note.. and decided to act on it...? maybe not... if she wants the camping stuff , you decide.. you are in plan b... right? why give it back... that sounds more like plan a...? right? it might teach her to respect you a little... I iknow now I gave my H too much stuff thinking if I am just a little nicer.. he will see how sweet I am being... Now he just acts more and more like the ja++ he is being lately and I start thinking I will lose stuff he should never of had... <p>luck and hugs, HOney

hmm, I understood the value of snooping in Plan A, but I can see its value is past now... it doesn't do me any personal good anymore. It's not "letting go" - so I need to stop. It's kind of hard, though, after it develops as a habit. Something to work on.<p>Anyhow, yes 2long, I guess I spelled it out for myself... act in a way consistent with my own life. Was it a Plan B slip-up, or believing that we can somehow be civil when it comes to logistical / practical matters, much as Dobson describes.<p>As for the gear itself... she had said before I left "take whatever you want" essentially. I guess I took that at face value... oopse.<p>Anyhow, my expectations are skewed again... need to refocus back to myself.<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

Trust me, if anyone could have heard HALF the thoughts going on in my mind... You know, her friend is the one she vents to. And friend has shown herself to be an enabler...so obviously friends response will be one of "you poor thing you get em" type thinking. Neither friend nor WW have any inkling or understanding of why you are in Plan B etc...so as far as they're concerned YOU'RE the one playing games. While friends support may feel nice for a time...it will grow weary soon. Because as supportive as friend may be...her "answers" as to how to deal with this or that, will not bring about the responses your wife eventually wants. Wife knows this...maybe it's deep under a blanket of fog...but she knows what little her friend really understands about healthy relationships.<p>So yes, snooping at this point does you NO GOOD and is NO real indicator of your wifes thoughts.

H4F, once again, amazing insight... thank you!<p>I never really appreciated that way of looking at it. WW does want to think in healthy ways, but is "challenged" currently. It's funny because they share advice between themselves so much, and look where it's gotten them... yuck!<p>It's too bad WW didn't meet with her IC recently - I think she was unavailable this week. I know she'd have something to say about this to WW, and it would be to STOP IT! (IC/MC supports me fully in my Plan B stance... says I need to "maintain NC to keep WW from fence sitting" - yeah!)

I just got a couple of copies of "The Language of Letting Go" - extremely good, BTW.

In fact, there's so much that can help me, a part of me hopes it can help WW too... is that just me "not letting go"? Is it reasonable for me to leave a copy for her when I'm there next Tuesday to supervise the furniture move? (She won't be there.)

Part of me sees it as "education" - but it's driven by that sense of "cheering her on", across the proverbial bridge - maybe she can get a thing or two from it. It might even help her understand my position a little better - I don't know.

Just thinking out loud!

JR, I totally understand your desire for her to "get it". But, you also know she WON'T get it unless she's ready, and SHE does the work needed. The effort and desire put forth towards finding the right answers is probably MORE important than the information itself.

I would say DON'T leave the book. If one day she decides she's ready for recovery and she quits all this other foolish nonsense...you can share all your fabulous finds with her. But for now...you're not her educator.

I've been tempted with all the fabulous books I've read to pass some on to the OM. I have desperatly wanted HIM to understand why this all came about and to assure that he finds a healthy state of mind. But...not my job...not my business.

She also might misread the message you're sending. While you might intend it as a "cheering her on" message...she might see it as you telling her you're working on letting go of the marriage. Believe me, if something can possibly be mis-percieved...it will be. She needs to be out of the fog before anything will really sink in right.

Also...by leaving the book she'll feel entitled to comment on it..or atleast on the fact that you left it. In a sense you're pushing her in to violating the rules you set forth. Not intentionally, I know...but I know I wouldn't have just read the book with no comment on why it was left etc...

All fair points...

That's why I questioned whether I'm not letting go by trying to help her understand ANYTHING.

If she wants to listen to her friend, if she wants to assume I'm being a pri*k by the NC, if she wants to build up OM in her mind - that's perfectly okay. It's perfectly okay. She can be whoever she wants to be. It may not be someone I can respect or love, but it's perfectly okay. I've got to truly get that.

It's a tough thing to really let go. I've never been really good at it either. Always want to know atleast what's going on. When the OM and I were on again off again early on in all of this I did many stupid things in order to keep track of him. I wanted to make sure he was ok...that was my justification...but I also wanted to know what was on his mind. I hacked into his hotmail once...until he figured that out...then I knew he was writing on a message board...so I searched that out and even posted to him under an alias. It was all really juvenile and stupid...but worse than that...it kept me obsessed with him.

But this time around I don't even hear reports from friends. The first I'd heard of him in a long time was from my hubby...the news about him having a girlfriend. I was happy for him but it did bring all that old **** back to the surface for a little while. I found myself feeling that old caretaker (also somewhat of a CONTROL freak) taking over. I wondered if he'd really worked through everything ok, maybe I should send him some of these books, maybe send him to this site...blah blah blah.

I did the same thing to my hubby when we were seperated. Gave him tips on dating and how not to screw up next time. Then I was upset when he actually headed out into the big bad world to try it all out!

Yup...letting go is a much healthier thing. I made many many many extrememly bad choices along our long journey, but in the end the rational part of my brain did take over.

One thing I wonder. Do you think that all the notes on your way out the door helped or hindered your current situation? The reason I wonder is that although I know you managed to make it perfectly clear to her you weren't abandoning her or your marriage...it also gave a pretty clear message that you were very much still in love with her. I know that shouldn't be a bad thing...but for a cake-eater it might give the message "I can string this out a bit longer because he obviously is still very interested in me". I know when I finally worked things through in my head and decided to reach back out to hubby...I honestly didn't know if he'd take me back or not. Earlier on in the game..I KNEW he would. I think it took realizing that he just might NOT to knock me off the throne I had myself on just a bit. I guess I think if I got 3 notes explaining over and over that my hubby really didn't want to do this but...it might just feed that ego a bit.

Which...in reference to the last paragraph...is exactly what leaving books does too IMHO. Don't play her games, and don't try to take care of her. She's gotta grow up the hard way...and sometimes, OFTEN, that means making mistakes and bad decisions on the way there.

Hmm, all very fair points again...

Your point about whether I've given a bit too much of my "state of mind" to her re: saving the marriage... I think I have in a way... but I also know this... as we were sitting on the bed that last night, and she was bawling her eyes out... she said her biggest fear was that I wouldn't want her back... funny (in a sick way) because in the past she'd claim that she was afraid of leaving because SHE might not want to come back, if that makes ANY sense! (Did it to you in the fog? Translation, please!)

So I think that I've given her a lot of loving gestures... but my last letter - was quite a bit tougher... never posted that one here on MB, but I think I passed it by you... it was a combination of Harley and Dobson, I will admit. I let her know that I love her, but that I will not tolerate being part of a harem any longer, and that it's not just about the pain I'm in - it's about self-respect and dignity.

In one of the rare e-mail exchanges since this started, I added a trailer line (at Steve's suggestion), along the lines of "please re-read my last letters". When she replied, she said that she had - several times.

So she is thinking, I think! The thing I'm wondering about is how it's affecting her feelings. And how her friend is helping her stay put. I know IC/MC has a pretty dim view of "well meaning advice from outside"...

As for the book... It's awfully good! I tore into it last night and read a good chunk already! It has a very healing focus. But I hear you... And doing things like giving her such are not consistent with where I am right now. If we come back together, it might be an "early gift", given under the premise that it's something I've found personally healing and inspiring... and I have!

J.R.,

I need to give up snooping too, at this point it just hurts and screws up our focus. I read my H's "home" email yesterday, which he hasn't checked since he left... and there was an email from one of his friends asking him if he was still interested in becoming roommates in a few months. The guy did say he still hoped we'd reconcile, but it still hurt to read.

It's been suggested that I stay in Plan A a bit longer (if you've been following my thread you'll see that no contact has become toast) but I may need to go to Plan B soon... I'd love to see your Plan B letter, if you wouldn't mind sharing...

Only translation I can give is that it's proof she's confused! But yes, it looks like she's given good indications that she's aware she still cares about you and is aware she has work to do. Still...once the tears stopped and the reality of you not being around hit...I'm sure the standard WS attitude reared it's ugly head for a while. It's a fog preservation thing. That will pass. You not only took away any and all reasons to be mad at you...now you aren't even around to be mad at. So eventually she'll tire of the arguments with you in her head.

It's always great to read a wonderful book...and I know I always want to share that feeling and knowledge with everyone too...but until other people are ready (ie they ask or they go looking themselves) they won't get nearly the same benefit from it.

Hubby and I just tore in to His Needs Her needs. It's explaining much better to us the basic MB ideas. Pretty cool stuff! When I read the first couple of chapter I just went...YUP YUP and YUP, that's EXACTLY how it felt/happend. Then I just wanted to go out and buy a copy for everyone I know. But...I'm afraid it wouldn't be nearly as appreciated by those who need it the worst! LOL!

JR,

Are you willing to post this letter ?

So I think that I've given her a lot of loving gestures... but my last letter - was quite a bit tougher... never posted that one here on MB, but I think I passed it by you... it was a combination of Harley and Dobson, I will admit. I let her know that I love her, but that I will not tolerate being part of a harem any longer, and that it's not just about the pain I'm in - it's about self-respect and dignity.

If not, would you email it to me (email is on sig line)

Jr,

How many times have you seen on these boards where WS said wanted DV, or never comming back, or don't love you any more or any number of such statements and within a few days was asking to come back, to do what it takes to put the M back together ? The point isn't that she will come back (we don't have the answer to that, just that you can never count on what they say. (We all know that but still .... we snoop, we hope, we say forget it ... all in response to an alien in a fog !!!!

Stay strong JR, and don't leave the book. It won't do any good at this point, only when she is ready if she is ready will it mean anything. Right now it might be seen a rescuing.

God Bless,

D.

Well, let me provide a short update...

WW responded on Friday - so right away we can conclude she didn't listen to her friend! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She said "you know that anything except X, Y and Z is yours, feel free to have it." So again, it's her rational, non-foggy (possibly guilty) side showing through. And she was willing to take care of the cats too, and didn't leave telling me to the last moment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My response was polite but short... thanked her mainly and gave some specifics about getting into the house. Very much consistent with the necessary idea of when contact IS necessary, to be calm, poised, confident - page right out of Dobson, actually.

SEEEE! Now you've got to spend your entire weekend getting your panties all out of a knot and all for nothing, cause you were SNOOOOPING! LOL!

I just bought a Dobsen book, about raising boys. I've heard he's a good author. Which one are you referring to?

That last letter you wrote was very good. Still true to everything you'd said up to that point, but in a much stronger, almost 180 type tone. And given everything else that was going on when you left I would say I was probably off on the extra letters slowing down the process. I think in a lot of situations, though...it would come off like "here's ooooone more chance, I'm almost done...ok, just OOOOOONE more chance, seriously I'm done after this....allright, I'm walking out the door but just in case you'd like to change my mind at all here's just OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEE more." In which case it would take the WS a bit longer to take any threats/boundries very seriously.

Anyway, glad to hear things still seem to be good! Have a good 4th!