I haven't posted in a while - for all who don't know me - I am BS - WH has had 2 EAs in last 18 months - OW2 just went back to home country to live with BF 3 weeks ago - I'm not sure if WH is still in contact by e-mail, but he shows no signs of "withdrawal" - I'm not sure if this means he is still in contact with her, or whether it means he is not really "in love" with her. WH has been in IC since April - I just started 2 weeks ago. Had major LB 3 weeks ago - I tried to talk to him, he blew up at me, threw pillows, screamed abuse at me - out of control with rage (that was the w/end she left - boy do I screw up sometimes - really choose my times!) - next day he apologized - said he was "just not in a place where he could deal with any of this right now". I had asked him a week before that if he had had any thoughts on when he might feel up to starting MC and he said "no".

So basically I have been lying low and keeping quiet - trying to wait for something to change - he has had work on which has demanded his attention, which is good - I have been very supportive - he was away the whole of last week on business and stayed with a couple of our best friends - I know he has confided in these friends that we are having problems - I know he has said it is my fault - I am too "heavy" basically, and he needs to be around "up" people - (this is one of the few things he has said to me to justify his behaviour).

So he's back now and has been pretty "normal" - friendly, trying to be kind, but I feel a distance between us - for me, it's like living with a stranger - I don't have ANY idea what he's thinking or feeling and I am too afraid to try to ask. I am basically following the "divorcebusting" list of "don'ts" and trying to get on with MY life - every time I feel like approaching him, I ask myself, isn't there something else you need to do for YOU, like, have you got that copy of your transcripts yet, have you worked out a budget for how much it costs to run this house, etc. To try to keep myself from hassling him emotionally. And since he hasn't DONE anything (that I know about) which I think he shouldn't, I haven't had any reason to be upset about his behaviour.
But there is NO talking. There is an emotional gulf between us and this is what I really need to have healed.

So our friend called last night while he was out - the ones he stayed with last week - she asked me how it was going between us and I said I didn't really know - trying to be normal, but feeling the vacuum of not talking and I don't feel this can be healed unless we are able to talk. I said he at least had to get to a place where he can listen to my feelings without my fearing violence, without my having to endure him screaming abuse at me. She agreed. Then she said he hadn't said much to them, but they had had SOME serious talks and she said that he was DETERMINED that he wanted things to work out between us - she said that was so clear - that he really really REALLY wants his family life and for things to "work out" between us. She said he said that he was never going to leave me and that he guessed he would just wait as long as he had to. I said what does he think he's waiting FOR? Things don't just get better by themselves - we have to talk about this in a safe environment - like WITH A MC. She said she thought the best thing to do was just continue with the counselling and wait until he was ready - he must just not be ready yet to talk.

I felt a lot better after hearing this - knowing that he feels that way - but I told her, the thing is he has to realize that he CAN'T HAVE A GIRLFRIEND - he is acting like a little boy - wants Mommy at home and still be able to have a girlfriend - and as long as he is "responsible" (his words) i.e. not sexual physically, it's OK. That's not OK with me and never will be.

So I went out last night, with son no. 1, whose 9 years old, to watch Daddy sing in a performance and I had a much better time than I would have had if she hadn't called. But I'm still stuck on what I should do. Just keep plan A - developing myself, and trying to be positive, trying to figure out what are LB's for him and avoid or eliminate them -

Hearing this made me feel better, but is it really good news? Or is he just going to wait it out and avoid talking to me? I am still confused and don't know how to live with this confusion. Have to be patient and plug along with the counselling?

Any ideas?

Odile

I think you are right on track. Just keep up with the Plan A and be positive. It must have felt like such a relief to hear he wants to work on things.
Keep up with counseling. Definately call Steve.
Keep us posted and good luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Layli

dear odile-hi, its been a long time since i posted to you. glad to hear of the progress.

i understand how hard it is to feel that you cant talk to your own husband. i am in the same situation. my husband is supportive and loving and i still feel such a gap between us at times. i can only imagine throwing in the fear of a blow-up too. hang tough and keep trying. good luck to you.

laylii and nikko,
thanks for the support - it always helps to know there is someone on this board who is listening. Nikko - your profile looks like a ditto of mine. Maybe we are married to brothers separated at birth?

I am trying to take a page out of BrambleRose's book and just accept where he is right now and get on with my life, and not wallow in my feelings of lonliness. I guess though that sometimes now I feel so alone in my marriage and so lonely. He is here at home, supposedly choosing his marriage and family life, but I don't have the sense that he has chosen me - it's like he just wants what I provide - I make the home, he shows up and enjoys living here, but what does he give me. Not much. At least, I have a hard time seeing what he is giving me. Last night he came home from work - he works a long day on Sunday - got home around 10:30 pm - I waited up so I could at least say hello and offer him some dinner if he was still hungry. He greeted me with a smile(no kiss), put his stuff away, told me how his brother was doing (he had had dinner with his brother), then said he was exhausted and had to go to bed. He brushed his teeth and went upstairs and went straight to the computer and checked his e-mails. I brushed my teeth and went upstairs with the pile of ironed and folded laundry. I went into the room he was in (with the computer) and crossed behind him - I decided to put the folded laundry on the sofa in that room - too late to put it away. He was madly typing an e-mail to the friends I just referred to in my previous post, on his Yahoo e-mail account. He now communicates with all his friends on his Yahoo e-mail account. I know he has told his friends this is the "better" one, because we got an e-mail from one friend who said "I can't remember which one you told me was the "better" one - so I'm sending this to both." He has been very uptight about me being in the same room with him while he is using this account - so I "test" him once in awhile to see what his reaction will be when I come in - after all, this is my house too and I should be able to use this room as well while he is in it. He didn't react to me walking behind him, and I went to bed. He worked on his e-mails for about half an hour, then came to bed. No kiss, no goodnight. This morning, he got up - he's cheerful with our son, and not giving me the cold shoulder or anything, just no real affection. He said he would take the car into the mechanic for me, but I'm home now for lunch and I see he forgot to do this. When I left for work, I kissed him goodbye, but his kiss is almost non-existent - very light. Three weeks ago, he was a lot more passionate about me. Now there is almost nothing. This is what worries me - see, even though he is not "physical" with these EAs, in the past, when they were ongoing, his attention was dragged away from me, and the sexual energy between us practically died - then I think the sexual energy came back because we were afraid of losing each other, and also, I think in some wierd way, he gets hyped up by contact with OW and uses me as a sexual outlet - I don't really know. All I know now is that he feels very far away emotionally, and it's like this yo-yo effect - I don't know what to do to protect myself anymore - I am in my own counselling, and trying to move forward with my life - but sometimes, I think that would be easier if we were separated. Back in April I suggested he move out while he got his head together, but he absolutely refused. I just find this very hard to live with and I don't want to live this way forever. Steve Harley is right that marriages break up because of hopelessness and not from anything else. I am trying to find some hope in myself.

Odile

Also, first thing he did this morning was check his e-mail account.

Odile

O,
I fully sympathize; I feel exactly the same way about communication, and I don't even have the benefit of a mutual "friend" that she talks to about this. Very unsettling, because we just have no idea what they are thinking , why, when, nothing!

In my case, I have been trying to get her to trust me more; my reactions, my behavior, etc.
And hoping that soon we will be able to talk more. It's very difficult because invariably almost any significant R talk arrives at the A or the OM, or other things she does not want to talk about yet.

Try to be patient, try to work towards MCing, that has helped me start the process; at least we're having some conversations of significance while we do exercises, etc.

I'll be eager to hear other feedback about this from others.

Odile,

I will try to give some of my thoughts here, but keep in mind I am a little jaded now, and my thoughts may not be worth much. Here goes anyway:

Please remember one thing, people do not change unless God changes them. Their personality will remain the same. Your husband will always have an anger problem. He will always be searching for "FUN" in his life. He will always have the Musician Mentality as you discussed in previous posts.

I am too "heavy" basically, and he needs to be around "up" people - (this is one of the few things he has said to me to justify his behaviour)

IMHO: This is a very important point for your WH. Based upon your previous posts, I believe that you have been and continue to be depressed and down. You project this when you are around anyone regardless of how hard you try to conceal it. Depressed people tend to make others around them depressed. I know this because when I even just look at my WW right now, I feel miserable. Looking into her hurt and depressed eyes makes me feel depressed too. I do not want to be around her now because of that. I am tired of being in pain and depressed and I want to move on with my life (regardless of who is in it). So I understand how your H may feel. This does not justify his actions in anyway. He is terribly wrong for what he did and is doing.

Maybe I am wrong about the depression, but think back to when the last time you really really had fun. How long did it last? How much do you laugh and smile? This is all about you and your impression of life.

So he's back now and has been pretty "normal" - friendly, trying to be kind, but I feel a distance between us - for me, it's like living with a stranger

In actuality, he is a stranger now. This stranger just happens to be your husband. He has had a second secret life and may continue to have this. You both have got to go through the whole relationship process all over again to get back the love and passion you shared with each other in the past. You can not just decide one day to start talking. Their needs to be courting, dating, and trust reastablished for both of you to begin opening up each other's heart and mind. We do not walk up to a stranger on the street and begin sharing your intimate secretes with them. Why? Because We are trying to protect ourselfs. We want to trust the person with the information we give them. This reastablishes intimacy. Do not expect the stranger in your house to start pouring out his heart to you. Be a friend first then you can be lovers.

Then she said he hadn't said much to them, but they had had SOME serious talks and she said that he was DETERMINED that he wanted things to work out between us

Your WH shared his most intimate thoughts with your friend. This is dangerous, but shows that he needs to feel safe to talk about these things. His talks do show that he is very interested in making things work with you. This is a real good sign. He knew that your friend would tell you these things. It looks like he is just using your friend as a comfortable mediator.

So I went out last night, with son no. 1, whose 9 years old, to watch Daddy sing in a performance and I had a much better time than I would have had if she hadn't called. But I'm still stuck on what I should do. Just keep plan A - developing myself, and trying to be positive, trying to figure out what are LB's for him and avoid or eliminate them -

Do not get wrapped up in depending upon your Husband for your hapiness/joy. True joy does not come from your surroundings it comes from your heart and mind. You are falling into the trap I did. I wanted our M to work so much and made it my life goal. I used my successes or failures in this goal seeking determine how I was going to feel. Instead of this, I should have been trying to work on myself. Trying to see that my joy should not be placed in the people and things in my life for this will always be fleeting. Have joy in your heart because of being able to enjoy life. God has given you many great things (your children, your health, a home, a job, etc.). Enjoy life and live it. Start living your life now. Enjoy everything you have not letting the things you do not have affect the joy of the things that you do have. If you gain this joy, you will win your H's love.

Think back in life to when you met and what your H found attractive in you. I will guarantee you were much happier and confident then. Regain that strength and joy.

I guess though that sometimes now I feel so alone in my marriage and so lonely.

I know how you feel. I have felt this way for most of my life (save my first 5 years of marriage). However, I did not let this control my joy (till now of course). I went out to live life, to try new things (kiss frogs), and to have fun with the things that I did have.

Unfortunately, I think his behaviour about his emails is a sign that something is still going on, or he could be scared his XOW is going to send an email. Try to ignore this and not think about it. Regain your strength and your joy.

Dear Spacecase and Dreamland,
Thanks for your input - yes, I agree, being "down" has been an issue for my WS which I have tried to address in many ways - one of the difficulties is that he doesn't seem to be able to tell the difference between real depression and the simple stresses of life - since I suffered PND, now he labels ALL of my "not positive" moods on depression, even when I try to tell him that I am not depressed - just tired, or feeling sick with a cold, or stressed out because of the kids fighting, or just lonely or bored, or sometimes, homesick for family who are 5000 miles away. Last year, we went back to Calif to see my family - I hadn't seen them in 7 years - and apparantly my H said to my sister "She looks so happy!" - she said she told him "Of course she's happy - she's with people she loves who also love her!" While I recognize that it is impossible to expect your spouse to provide you with happiness, when you are married, I think you should make the effort to contribute to your spouse's well-being.

But since my H is in a different place right now, I am learning that I can't have expectations in this area and am trying to rediscover how to enjoy life without him - so I think you are right, Dreamland - I have to find my joy in myself and apart from him right now.

I have more to say, but I am at work and people are coming in right now, so I need to log off now, but will come back later.

Odile

Have not been able to get to computer to post - H is home all the time, so I only ever get 10 minutes alone in the house to post -

I am still struggling along - H very stand-offish - no more loving hugs or kisses - he is keeping me at arm's length - once in a while a pat on the bottom, no more.

I tried to talk to him on Tues - I asked him if he had had any thoughts about going to a MC yet? He was like a man peeking through a hole in the wall at me - did NOT really want to talk about this - I said I didn't think things would get better between us on their own - this seemed to disappoint him - he said "You don't think so?" I said, no - I didn't feel safe about voicing my thoughts or feelings to him, since the last incident where he exploded at me. His answer was not reassuring to me - I don't see that his therapy has made any difference in him taking responsibility for his behaviour - he said

A - he had apologized so I should no longer bring up this incident.

B - I KNEW he didn't like it when I tried to talk to him late at night when he was trying to go to sleep, implying that I had some responsibility in what had happened. I told him regardless of that, nothing justified him exploding at me in the manner he had - (screaming abuse at me, throwing things at me, screaming at me to get out into the street, calling me foul namesl, being physically threatening) - to me, saying "you KNEW I didn't like that..." is just the same logic as the man who beats his wife because she put mustard in his sandwich - "but you KNEW I didn't like mustard in my sandwich, so if you hadn't put mustard in my sandwich I wouldn't have hit you" - same logic.

C - I then said - I won't be happy until I can talk to you without fear of being attacked. He said "so this is your decision then? You have decided you WON'T be happy - that's your decision". Well - this deflects the conversation away from his behaviour on to me and makes it my problem - the problem is I have "decided" to be unhappy about being attacked. And we are now no longer talking about his behaviour, but about my problems - this way it is always my problem.

So - no improvement. Well, I said I was ready to start MC, and if he wasn't ready that was OK, but he should say HE wasn't ready, and not put it on to me - he thinks I need more counselling before we start MC - maybe he's right. Finally he said maybe he wasn't ready - he also reminded me that I had told him in Feb (on D-Day no. 2) that "he had very serious problems that were ruining our lives and he needed to get help to deal with these" - he said this was what he was doing. Basically, don't ask for any more right now.

So then, today - in the morning and the afternoon, we have had irritable misunderstandings - I feel he tries to land the responsibility for these incidents in my lap - and he gets angry, saying I am paranoid and seeing criticism where there is none. It may be true - I don't know - I am having a hard time walking away from an argument - I am tired of being blamed for all these minor problems - like he is supposed to take the boys to their violin lessons this afternoon so I can go to my counselling appt at 6 - as far as I know their lesson time is 5:15, and we have discussed the timeframe arrangements for today all week - have to pick up son no. 1 from school at X 'o clock, etc - then go on to X - then I'll meet you all at X at X o'clock, etc. - I thought it was all decided. So I am on the phone trying to handle arrangements for tomorrow and he interrupts me - HAS to talk to me RIGHT NOW - says he is confused about the time for violin lesson and doesn't know what time he is supposed to pick up son no. 1 - I interrupt my conversation to reassure him of times - he doesn't like my answer and stomps out of the room in a huff, angry that I am on the phone and not able to answer him question to his satisfaction. I finish my phone conversation quickly and go to ask him what the matter is - it turns out he thinks violin lessons are at a different time this week - well, I don't know this because I didn't take them last week - if this is true, it is information only he knows and has not shared with me - all week we have been discussing times and until this moment all was OK. Suddenly it's different. He said he needed to talk to me and I wasn't being helpful. I said it was new to me the change in time and the confusion therefore was not my responsibility - he said I was paranoid and getting mad over nothing - all he was doing was trying to ask a question. This is the kind of thing I go through. I just still get wound up by him and then slammed down again, no matter how hard I try to stay out of these things.

I wonder if he is going through withdrawal. It has been about 6 weeks since OW2 went back to France. Maybe it is finally sinking in. He is certainly very grouchy.

I am off to counselling now - maybe I can cool off. He goes away on business again on Tues - hopefully July will bring some good times too - I will see my sister, BIL, and neice and nephew in Paris in 2 weeks. I think I will cry all over my sister - haven't seen her in a year - since my brother's funeral last June.

Odile

Hi Odile.. I really relate to your problem.. that your h wants you to be happy and be around a happy person.. IN my opinion.. I feel it is a very big issue when the person you love treats you like crap.. how can you just be so happy>>

>? anyway... do the best you can and love yourself.. I am growing happier in my own life without him.. he used to make me SOOOOO HAPPY... but being told numberous times how terrible and awaful I am... makes it all really really bad amd sad// and being suddenly a single mom of 2 young boys!

anyway.. just my 2 cents. I think it is another excues.... do try to be the you that he fell in love with... that seemed to work when I did it... right now h wont even see me... drifing from one experience to the next...

HONEY

How did the counseling session go? Is it primarily working on your own issues? Or is it also MC? Hope he/she can be of help to you.

It will do you a lot of good to spend time with your S. My S and I are very close. We talked often as she dealt with her H's infidelity and D. She says it was what kept her going. My XBIL eventually married the OW, but he is not happy. (The OW spent 5 years on probation for having s*x with her daughter's 15 year old boyfriend! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) My S married her British H and is very content. My point is, your S will probably be happy to lend you her support. BS shouldn't have to bear their burden alone.

Son has realized that his R is hopeless and plans to find an attorney quite soon. I hope he follows through. DIL told him she didn't trust or respect him and would want the D if she had the $. I guess she is going to get what she wants one way or the other. It is time for S to start rebuilding his life.

Five more days until I head your way. I always get anxious wondering if I have packed too much, not enough, the wrong stuff, who will water the lawn and feed the animals, will my ATM cards work, etc, etc, etc. I read that Ireland has had over 200% of its normal rainfall in some areas so far this year! At home, we've had all of 2.60 inches in the whole first six months. I may get waterlogged!

Estes

Hi there,
H is gone all day today, so I can have some time on the computer -

Honey - thanks for the boost - I have followed your thread a lot and can really sympathize - my former BF, before I got married, was an alcoholic - a binge drinker - he was very sweet and wonderful when he wasn't drinking and he genuinely loved me - my dad is also an alcoholic, as was my grandfather and great-uncle. I think you are doing the right thing to be separated until/unless he handles his addiction issues - nothing is ever going to get better for your R until he is clean and takes responsibility for staying clean. You have been doing a good job at trying to take back control of your life and rebuild yourself as a person - I know the thing that I find the most hurtful and frustrating is when I feel my H blames me for all our problems - I know this is his way of shifting responsibility for his actions on to me, but it still hurts and makes me mad.

I have started counselling and this is one of the issues we are talking about - how to try to sort out what is HIS responsibility and what is MINE. For example, in my previous post, I got irritated by his suddenly changing the goalposts about the violin lesson times - to me, it seemed like he suddenly popped something on me and expected me to know and have the answer to his question, and then got mad because I didn't know and couldn't "fix his problem" for him. Well - he did do all that - but I didn't have to get in a fight with him about it. In the past, I would get in a fight with him, at least this time, I only started to get irritated with him. Hopefully, I will be able to reach the point where I can say something simple and then walk away, even get out of the house, and leave him with his own problem to sort out, rather than get caught up in the emotional minefield that happens when he does that kind of thing. My counselor is so far helping me to talk about how I got involved with him in the first place, my childhood and how that influenced my not being able to really tell what was good for me and what was not, and any immediate crisis feelings I might have.

Although I am trying to go on with my "normal" life, inside I am still very tense and untrusting and am finding it more difficult than ever to be open to love happening between my H and I.

Last night, we went out to some friends for dinner. They are a really nice couple whom we have known for years - it was the first time we have been invited over as a couple for a long, long time. Most of our friends know each other - we live in a smallish town and people are very closely intertwined here - everyone you know knows someone you know that you didn't think they knew, if you know what I mean! LOL I have tried not to talk to anyone about our problems - only a couple of my girlfriends, but I think some of our friends have picked up on my unhappiness. We had a really nice time last night - my H warmed up to me a lot, and I don't think it was just because he wanted to pretend in front of other people. I had dressed really nicely and he commented on my appearance as soon as he saw I had got ready and had nice clothes on and a new scarf. When we left, the H of this couple said to me "It's good to see you smiling again". I had bumped into him back in March when things were really rocky.

So it felt good to have a good social experience as a couple again. Also, H is going on business trip on Tuesday, and I and the boys are joining him a week later - we are taking the train to Paris. Then we are coming home on the train while H goes on to another venue. H said yesterday that he is suddenly realizing he won't be travelling with us either way, and he would have had fun with us. He is also starting to do his "worry" business about it - How are they going to get along without me? - he seems to be worried I won't be able to handle getting both boys there and back without mishap on my own. I'll be fine! LOL. All this shows me is how much H only wakes up at the last minute - well, he really does want to do his own thing after we leave Paris and that's fine with me, but he's like that - he doesn't plan any family time, or time with me and only realizes what he's missing after the fact. If it had been up to him, we wouldn't even be going to Paris - he would have said it was too expensive - then about this time, he would have been saying, you really ought to be coming to see your sister, if only we had planned it sooner - but we ARE going, because I now have a part-time job and because he no longer controls ALL the money, and because I decided we were going and told the boys we were going to see their cousins, so he COULDN'T say to them, no you can't go see your cousins. I know that was a little underhanded, but I think it was real important that I get to see my family when I can, and my boys get to see their cousins when they could.

So - I have another counselling appt on Tues - I do think it is helping ME - so far no MC together - maybe in Aug or Sept. will try again - my counselor said it didn't sound like he was ready - and the best thing to do was leave it for awhile.

Estes - sorry to hear things not going well for your S. Will e-mail you. Sorry to tell you we have had a long spell of wet and grey weather here - AND even a big funnel cloud in Scotland - it didn't touch down, but looked pretty hairy! Just what you needed! I'm sure you will have a wonderful time - just bring your umbrella!

Ciao for now!
Odile

H left his Yahoo account up on the computer history again this am - and one other thing - he clicked on a Yahoo site for home surveillance - webcam, I take it - wierd.

H has been affectionate again. Have decided not to take the bait and check yahoo account - tell myself it doesn't mean anything - he could other accounts - hotmail, wanadoo, etc. - only Spector would tell me everything - and I only really want to do that if i feel all counselling has failed and want to gather info for a D.

But feel he is playing mind games with me - am I paranoid? Will see my counsellor tomorrow - H goes to Paris tomorrow AM - then I and the boys off to Paris next Mon to see my sister's family for a week - say prayers for some good times for us at last.

Ciao!
Odile

P.S. Got my hair done today - feel great!