OK, I need some help here...I have to begin to draft a Plan to meet my WW's top 5 ENs and I have to present it to Steve by the end of this week.
I have some ideas, and have notes and stuff, but maybe I can get some feedback from the forum that will help.

<strong>Her Top 5 ENs are (as of 5/27)
1. Conversation
2. Sexual Fulfillment
3. Financial Support
4. Admiration
5. Affection</strong>

Here's what she says about them:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>1. Conversation</strong>
She scores a 4 on how great the need is. Between Moderate Need and Great Need for affection.
She'd like this fulfilled 1 time per day.
She says she'll be "somewhat unhappy" if I don't fulfill this need as often as she wants it.
She scores it a -2 "I am extremely dissatisfied" with my conversation with her.
And she indicates she gets "all the conversation she needs, but it is NOT the way she likes it"

Her notes read: "It is very difficult for us to communicate. It feels like we always end up fighting. That's one of our biggest problems, our lack of communication"

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
"We don't converse, we fight. We can;t communicate. Seen some improvement, still a lot of problems"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My take is that this needs to improve much, much more. I have learned to be less agressive, less impatient and more calm during conversation. But we still have a lot of anger and frustration, and very major differences in many areas. Her lies and her unwillingness to talk about the A, to discuss these matters makes it very, very hard to talk about meaningful things w/o getting frustrated. I need help here!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2. Sexual Fulfillment</strong>
She scores a 3 on how great the need is. Moderate Need for sexual fulfillment.
She'd like this fulfilled 1 time per week.
She says she'll be "happy not to engage in sex" if I don't fulfill this need as often as she wants it.
She scores it a -1 between "I am extremely dissatisfied" and "I am neither satisfied nor dissatisfied"with my sex with her.
And she indicates she gets "all the sex she needs, but it is NOT the way she likes it"

Her notes read: "I don't feel the need for sex like he does. I think that I was never satisfied in this area so now it's harder for me. I don't really know what I really want or how I want it, or what to do actually."

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
"It's important in every marriage, not as important for me as it is for you. She wants to give it more importance because she knows it's important to me. Trying to figure out how she likes it, doesn't know how. Does not engage because she does not get satisfaction."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no idea what more to do here; she does not let me try anything new, experiment, talk about it, nothing. I try to be as responsive to her needs and have ignored mine even. I've talked to her about it, bought her books, many things...but she's still reading the first one...and it's been 6 months!
Makes me feel like she's just not interested in making this work for us, or she's (G-d forbid), getting it elsewhere. Just DO NOT know what to do about this.
Also, she says she'd like it once a week, but the routine is closer to maybe twice a month. She never initiates....maybe 1 out of 100 times at most.
ANY ideas here will be appreciated!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>3. Financial Support</strong>
She scores a 5 on how great the need is. Great Need for Financial Support.
She'd like me to make $10,000 per month.
She says she'll be "somewhat unhappy" if I don't earn what she wants.
She does not score her satisfaction of my Financial Support for her.
And she does not indicates if I support her enough or the way she like me to.

Her notes read: "Unfortunately H has been out of work for a long time (11 months almost) so that makes it very difficult and I have to say that he always provided us with financial support"

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
She'd like "more stability" in this, she admits she likes the "good life", would like it to be easier. H has never avoided this responsibility.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My job situation does not help, although I've managed to keep pretty much everyhting going ok and on time, with little sacrifice. Obviously this will improve when I get a job again...
The MAJOR issue here is our disagreement on priorities. I want to save, she wants to spend. I think college is more important, she thinks new furniture and clothes are. I guess that's the ususal, but we don't seem to be able to compromise and reach agreements here. Besides, her A has caused her to be very, very secretive about money, accounts cr cards, bills, everything...so it makes it very hard to work on this honestly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>4. Admiration</strong>
She scores a 5 on how great the need is. Great Need for Admiration.
She'd like this fulfilled 1 time per week.
She says she'll be "very unhappy" if I don't fulfill this need as often as she wants it.
She scores it a -1 between "I am extremely dissatisfied" and "I am neither satisfied nor dissatisfied"with my Admiration of with her.
And she indicates she gets "not enough admiration, but it IS the way she likes it when she gets it"

Her notes read: "You need that good word once in a while, I NEVER had that, now he's starting to say something good sometimes"

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
"Show me that some of the things I do are right, not everything is wrong. Has seen some improvement lately. Before, never did it."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm getting better, but my frustrations with lack of progress and lack of giving importance to our R and M makes it hard. I have a tendency to say "you did great, but..." and I have to stop that.
It has been getting better, but at the expense of NOT saying what I really feel. So I sure need help here!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>5. Affection</strong>
She scores a 6 on how great the need is. Great Need for Affection.
She'd like this fulfilled 2 time per day.
She says she'll be "somewhat unhappy" if I don't fulfill this need as often as she wants it.
She scores it a 2, almost "I am extremely satisfied" with my Affection for her.
And she indicates she gets "All the affection she needs, and it IS the way she likes it."

Her notes read: "H has improved a lot by showing his affection lately. That makes me feel very good since before I didn't have it. Although sometimes it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable or angry because I ask myself why didn't he do it before?"

During her presentation of these to me she also said:
H has improved a lot in showing affection. Makes me feel good compared to before. Did not do it before. Sometimes feel bad, angry; how come now and not before? Never wanted to be close, now he hugs me and is close to me in bed. Why now?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess this is good, but I'll take suggestions anyway!

Thanks everyone!

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

You're farther along than I am. I tried to get my wife to think about these things... I think I know what her ENs are by observation and reflection... but who really knows? Her ENs seem to change daily.

Like Harley said... combine Affection, Sexual Fulfillment, and Conversation together. That's when it's best. Rather than initiate sex, take her to a romantic movie... talk with her, put your arm around her, and see if that doesn't lead to SF... which according to him is the natural outcome of love when ENs are selflessly met.

Like you, I have problems because wife won't talk about certain issues and so Conversation is very emotionally charged right now. It's hard to show admiration as well... hoping it will pass with time.

Ok Space -

I'll talk to you from a female perspective about conversation, if not from a WS perspective.

You, I have noticed, are a fixer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You like plans, efficiency and don't have much patience for anything less than a direct proper solution to any problem on the horizon.

The problem with this attitude in conversation is that women DON'T LIKE FIXERS when they want to talk.

We female types just like to discuss a problem or a concept from every possible angle. We get a great deal of pleasure from the discussion. We discuss for the sake of discussing, NOT for the sake of solving or resolving or concluding or whatever.

Open ended conversations where there is RESPECT for differences of opinion and points of view is extremely comforting and pleasurable. Haven't you ever listened to women talking on the phone? No one has to be "right" or win the conversation or fix it. Its the act of discussing that bonds us to our female friends, its not the outcome of the conversation that does it.

So I think you might want to focus on rooting out all possible disrespectful judgements in how you talk to her, and work on your listening skills. And let go of the "goal" - there doesn't have to be one.

Just a note, I have better conversations with my H about his affair NOW after we have had some healing in our marriage and more emotional trust. We had to learn to be safe with each other before we could effectively talk about our relationship and our marriage. So I suspect you are putting the cart before the horse. As long as she is not safe in conversation, you aren't going to hear about the affair from her. You have got to establish an emotional bond an trust with her first.

Also, I realize that you NEED to talk about this. Good lord I remember thinking I was going to explode if I didn't get answers and conversation about it all from my husband. I had to constantly remind myself that my taker was out of control, and that I was lovebusting with selfish demands that we discuss and talk. Once I stopped NEEDING to talk, guess what....my H started talking!

ok. Sometimes I feel like you don't like my input, and that's ok.. it may not apply... but I will take a stab here.

That's ^ ^ sort of my first point. I don't know what it is Spacey... and PERHAPS your W feels like I do when conversing with you... BR hit on some things pretty well... but let me try to explain... maybe it will help you with your W. k?

I feel like you don't try to understand where I'm coming from. If I offer ideas that you don't agree with, or don't understand, OR seem like they don't apply, it seems like you either ignore them, reply with a "yes, but..." or simply say "thanks". Now, that's perfectly fine on this board. With 15 different people responding to you, it's difficult to communicate properly with them. My feelings aren't hurt when that happpens. This is a discussion forum. I'm a big girl and I realize that, and so do YOU. No biggee!! BUT communication with your W is different, and if I'm picking up on a communication style that may be affecting your marriage, then lets see if we can help, k?

It seems like you communicate well with CSue, for example, as well as Orchid and 2long. But your challenge is to learn to communicate well with your W, and she may not be like CSue, or 2long.

here's a couple of suggestions:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We women like to KNOW that you are listening, so lots of uh-huh's, yes's, ooh's, really?'s, aah's and wow's. "So then what happened?" We like to know that you WANT to hear us: "Talk to me" ... "Tell me" ... "ANYTHING - say it.. please... I want to hear" ... "no, really! I want to hear about it!"
  </font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (here's a biggee) If you disagree, ask yourself if it's a BIG DEAL. Even if she's choosing to handle a situation WRONG, if it's REALLY not a big deal, let her do it her way. Things like: "I gotcha". "I hear ya". "Sounds good" . "You're a smart cookie." . "I know you will do fine" and the great but simple: "O.K."
  
  </font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Reward her for openning up. "Thank you sharing" .. "Thank you for being so honest with me".. "I'm sorry I hurt you." . "I appreciate you saying that." .. "I'm SO GLAD you told me. I didn't know." "I understand... thanks for explaining."
  
  </font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just chit-chat. Maybe you were like this too: when H and I started dating, we used to talk on the phone for HOURS. About nothing. Just the day. What's on TV. Hopes. Dreams. Family. Just talking. Remember that? Were you like that? when dating: No judging. Everything was cool to say - everything was cool to listen to. You accepted each other for who you are and what you think. Isn't that what her EA is largely about? Be like the OM. Become interested in what she says, thinks and feels. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Over dinner. On the phone. Lying in the yard looking at the stars. Going on walks. Going on a picnic.
  
  </font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.

SF: well, You may want to talk to her some more. To try to get her to open up. "Tell me.. please... you can tell me anything.. I want to know..." hmmmm.... <Faith1 thinking> .... I never felt comfortable complaining, correcting, or asking for anything. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. You guys take so much pride in being GREAT in that area, we're scared to tell you when it's not great. Had H encouraged me to say ANYTHING... if I knew his feelings would not get hurt... I could have been more open and honest. I was "ok" with everything, but afraid to make an effort to make it "great". Make sure she feels "safe" talking about it. MUCH patience and care is needed (it is for ME) to talk about it or try new things. Have you read Mars and Venus in the Bedroom??? Please do - maybe again. It's great.

Here's another thought about her initiating. If you are meeting all her other needs, SHE WILL INITIATE MORE. WHen my H was meeting my conversation, honesty, Fin. sec., AFFECTION!!!, needs.... I would initiate cuz I WANTED to. I couldn't help it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . THere's another book "Sex begins in the kitchen", or something like that. Meaning - foreplay for women happens all day long. Focus on meeting her other needs, and she will respond .... I betcha. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Financial Security: I know you are doing your best. Perhaps a part-time job in the mean-time??? Also, step up on the other stuff while you're not working - I'm SURE you are, but wanted to be sure. (housework, errands, foot rubs, back rubs, affection, yard-work, cooking, etc.)

Admiration: you said it... take the "but" out. I also touched on some stuff above in Conversation. VALIDATING her opinions, desires, thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. Other things like: "Thank you". Smiling at her. "I appreciate you". "Wow! That was great!" Chew your tongue off when you find yourself correcting her. Also, follow her suggestions on stuff - if its' really not a biggee to do so.

Keep up the good work on Affection! She just needs more time and consistency so she will believe it's for real!

You're doing great Spacey! I guess one reason I hang around here is because I feel like I've learned a lot, but I had no chance to apply it in a marriage... so I feel like I need to keep learning and observing so it will sink in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I'm so happy to see some of you folks APPLYING this stuff!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Yay you!!!

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</small>

HI SCase.. will take a stab at this...
1. Conversation:

My bet is she just wants to talk... like some otehrs have sd.... just try listening and talking about what she wants to talk about... maybe even bring up a current affairs topic from the news or something... or talk about decor and clothes.. it sounds like your wife likes that.... What did you guys talk about in your early "in love" days... chances are she is still somewhat the same person inside... DONT FIGHT>>.. no matter what.. not worth it... OK!

2. sf, I think she needs other needs met in order to feel better aobut the sf... maybe try meeting her womanly wants... she does need to tell you what she wants! try talking gently about this one... try setting a romantic mood with flowers, candles , wining and dining... that always worked for me...! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

3. fin. support... biggie for me too. I would say at least finding something to do in the meanwhile while waiting to and that "big job" will help a lot... I would just find something.. and I would do some extra housework while in waiting...extra cleaning, cooking, parenting, anything to lighten her load... helping getting the kids to pick up their rooms... monitoring this... would prob. be a GODSEND to her... I remember that problem.. and how she sd no one understood her need to have house clean or something like that, right? START UNDERSTANing that need.. and start doing more...

I think I already told you once.. when My H does the dishes... I fall in love and get in the mood... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

4. Tips from me... you look pretty today...
I like the way you did that. That is a good idea. I like your dress. I like the way you decorated this or that...

I am proud you are my wife... Tell her about everything she does right... dont worry about mentioning what she does wrong right now... unless it is in the harley way... OK?

5. perhaps you should explain to her... that you are trying to do better... and that before the harleys.. etc. you didnt realize you were doing bad.. you were just bogged down in work and etc... and didnt realize you were not doing what she wanted.. in regards to her comment about how you have improved lately, but she is a bit angry that you did not do this before...

sounds like she likes the hugging and closeness now... keep it up, more of the same.. how about greetings and goodbyes.. more hugs and kisses there too... even flowers.. OK?

GOOD LUCK.. hope my humble opinion helps some... I see you doing a great job trying.

HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>HI SCase.. will take a stab at this...
1. Conversation:

My bet is she just wants to talk... like some otehrs have sd.... just try listening and talking about what she wants to talk about... maybe even bring up a current affairs topic from the news or something... or talk about decor and clothes.. it sounds like your wife likes that.... What did you guys talk about in your early "in love" days... chances are she is still somewhat the same person inside... DONT FIGHT>>.. no matter what.. not worth it... OK!

2. sf, I think she needs other needs met in order to feel better aobut the sf... maybe try meeting her womanly wants... she does need to tell you what she wants! try talking gently about this one... try setting a romantic mood with flowers, candles , wining and dining... that always worked for me...! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

3. fin. support... biggie for me too. I would say at least finding something to do in the meanwhile while waiting to and that "big job" will help a lot... I would just find something.. and I would do some extra housework while in waiting...extra cleaning, cooking, parenting, anything to lighten her load... helping getting the kids to pick up their rooms... monitoring this... would prob. be a GODSEND to her... I remember that problem.. and how she sd no one understood her need to have house clean or something like that, right? START UNDERSTANing that need.. and start doing more...

I think I already told you once.. when My H does the dishes... I fall in love and get in the mood... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

4. Admiration
Tips from me... you look pretty today...
I like the way you did that. That is a good idea. I like your dress. I like the way you decorated this or that...

I am proud you are my wife... Tell her about everything she does right... dont worry about mentioning what she does wrong right now... unless it is in the harley way... OK?

5. Affection
perhaps you should explain to her... that you are trying to do better... and that before the harleys.. etc. you didnt realize you were doing bad.. you were just bogged down in work and etc... and didnt realize you were not doing what she wanted.. in regards to her comment about how you have improved lately, but she is a bit angry that you did not do this before...

sounds like she likes the hugging and closeness now... keep it up, more of the same.. how about greetings and goodbyes.. more hugs and kisses there too... even flowers.. OK?

GOOD LUCK.. hope my humble opinion helps some... I see you doing a great job trying.

HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Spacecase,

Do not be too hard on yourself about the EN's. If the EA is really still going on, you will be unable to meet her EN's. There is a big division factor with any of the needs you try to meet for her. This has nothing to do with you at all. This is a strange occurance where she is fighting for the life she really wants, and who is she fighting with - You. If any one else came up to her and tried to meet her EN's right now, they would have better success then you. You have to get over the big barrier she has put between you and her before you will be able to meet these needs the way she wants you to.

However, that does not mean you ignore what she has told you. There are some genuine things you can work on to help you meet her needs. This is part of the pain because the WS loves to magnify your faults because it minimizes her faults. Has she tried meeting your needs, and does she care to try. My opinion still is that you will not successfully meet those needs as long as the OM is in the picture.

My WW's few posts and my discussions with her were revalations to me regarding this. Interestingly enough, the OM was her needs but with actions and romance far far below what she expected of me. The OM did few of the actions and romance my WW laid out for me. Very very strange. You see the hormones and newness of the relationship without any tanglements of bitterness etc. energize and multiply any contact or tiny bit of EN's the OM did for my WW. After I realized this I felt released of my insecurities. I decided that I no longer was going to try to meet her EN's, I was going to do the actions that I thought would meet her EN's when all of this was all over. My reasons for doing this where three fold: 1) I had to do something so I did not feel so powerless even though in reality I had no effect on their A positive or negative. 2) I am a giver and part of my needs are filled by doing nice things for others. It made me feel good to bring her flowers, etc even though it did virtually nothing to fill her EN's. 3) I felt that doing these things was good practice for me, even though I would get no genuine feedback.

I know you were looking for positive specific things to do that would help you fill her EN's. The truth is, you know how to do this and always knew how to do this. You can improve filling EN's, but she truly will not fully appreciate or even care until the A is dead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>ok. Sometimes I feel like you don't like my input, and that's ok.. it may not apply... but I will take a stab here.

That's ^ ^ sort of my first point. I don't know what it is Spacey... and PERHAPS your W feels like I do when conversing with you... BR hit on some things pretty well... but let me try to explain... maybe it will help you with your W. k?

I feel like you don't try to understand where I'm coming from. If I offer ideas that you don't agree with, or don't understand, OR seem like they don't apply, it seems like you either ignore them, reply with a "yes, but..." or simply say "thanks". Now, that's perfectly fine on this board. With 15 different people responding to you, it's difficult to communicate properly with them. My feelings aren't hurt when that happpens. This is a discussion forum. I'm a big girl and I realize that, and so do YOU. No biggee!! BUT communication with your W is different, and if I'm picking up on a communication style that may be affecting your marriage, then lets see if we can help, k?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Faith...I have never purposely berated or belittled your input. If I have, I apologize. I know you are SO right with this; sometimes I'm just "short" or "direct" or something, and it DOES come across different from what I mean. Very good point.
I know I do it with her; I'm impatient, short, quick to anger, and I'm working on this. I swear this is the hardest thing for me! I don't know why. Maybe I'm so frustrated, the work situation, everything at once has gotten to be too much. Very hard to just feel positive and like things are OK.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
here's a couple of suggestions:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (here's a biggee) If you disagree, ask yourself if it's a BIG DEAL. Even if she's choosing to handle a situation WRONG, if it's REALLY not a big deal, let her do it her way. Things like: "I gotcha". "I hear ya". "Sounds good" . "You're a smart cookie." . "I know you will do fine" and the great but simple: "O.K."
  </font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Reward her for openning up. "Thank you sharing" .. "Thank you for being so honest with me".. "I'm sorry I hurt you." . "I appreciate you saying that." .. "I'm SO GLAD you told me. I didn't know." "I understand... thanks for explaining."
  
  </font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just chit-chat. Maybe you were like this too: when H and I started dating, we used to talk on the phone for HOURS. About nothing. Just the day. What's on TV. Hopes. Dreams. Family. Just talking. Remember that? Were you like that? when dating: No judging. Everything was cool to say - everything was cool to listen to. You accepted each other for who you are and what you think. Isn't that what her EA is largely about? Be like the OM. Become interested in what she says, thinks and feels. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Over dinner. On the phone. Lying in the yard looking at the stars. Going on walks. Going on a picnic.
  
  </font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are good. Thank you. I'm going to print them out and pin 'em up!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
SF: well, You may want to talk to her some more. To try to get her to open up. "Tell me.. please... you can tell me anything.. I want to know..." hmmmm.... <Faith1 thinking> .... I never felt comfortable complaining, correcting, or asking for anything. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. You guys take so much pride in being GREAT in that area, we're scared to tell you when it's not great. Had H encouraged me to say ANYTHING... if I knew his feelings would not get hurt... I could have been more open and honest. I was "ok" with everything, but afraid to make an effort to make it "great". Make sure she feels "safe" talking about it. MUCH patience and care is needed (it is for ME) to talk about it or try new things. Have you read Mars and Venus in the Bedroom??? Please do - maybe again. It's great.

Here's another thought about her initiating. If you are meeting all her other needs, SHE WILL INITIATE MORE. WHen my H was meeting my conversation, honesty, Fin. sec., AFFECTION!!!, needs.... I would initiate cuz I WANTED to. I couldn't help it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . THere's another book "Sex begins in the kitchen", or something like that. Meaning - foreplay for women happens all day long. Focus on meeting her other needs, and she will respond .... I betcha. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so hard! For years she never complained about it, so how was I supposed to know she was unhappy? Any time I tried something new, she didn't want me to, so I stopped doing it. Every time I talk to her about it, she says the same thing; "I don't know what I want". Whatever...I guess I can't win here...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Financial Security: I know you are doing your best. Perhaps a part-time job in the mean-time??? Also, step up on the other stuff while you're not working - I'm SURE you are, but wanted to be sure. (housework, errands, foot rubs, back rubs, affection, yard-work, cooking, etc.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doing all kinds of stuff here; all I will say is that during almost 11 months of unemployment, nothing has gone down the tubes. The only thing we don't have is the "security" or the "stability" of my previous jobs. And I HAVE been doing all kinds of stuff at home; always have! Garden, cooking, shopping, supermarket, lots of affection, a few back and foot rubs, BBQing, all kinds of stuff with the kids...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Admiration: you said it... take the "but" out. I also touched on some stuff above in Conversation. VALIDATING her opinions, desires, thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. Other things like: "Thank you". Smiling at her. "I appreciate you". "Wow! That was great!" Chew your tongue off when you find yourself correcting her. Also, follow her suggestions on stuff - if its' really not a biggee to do so. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is SO hard to just stop saying "but"....I swear! I want more, so it's like I can't look at what she's done or said but at what I'd like her to do or say, or the way she did or said it...I need to dumpt the but from my vocabulary! You are VERY right on this one. I told you I'm a caveman! just dense!!! I need drugs!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Keep up the good work on Affection! She just needs more time and consistency so she will believe it's for real! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope so. It is so unnerving to feel like I'M the one on probation here...kills me! But I enjoy giving her lots of affection, I really do.

Thanks Faith! I mean it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you, Honey....those are very good and I WILL follow them as best I can.

I won't ansewer each one because they are all on target; perhaps not exactly what my W likes, but very, very close!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>Spacecase,

Do not be too hard on yourself about the EN's. If the EA is really still going on, you will be unable to meet her EN's. There is a big division factor with any of the needs you try to meet for her. This has nothing to do with you at all. This is a strange occurance where she is fighting for the life she really wants, and who is she fighting with - You. If any one else came up to her and tried to meet her EN's right now, they would have better success then you. You have to get over the big barrier she has put between you and her before you will be able to meet these needs the way she wants you to.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DL; I am SO glad you posted this! I had totally lost sight of that factor, and I think it is absolutely correct. I must learn to temper my expectations more, because I think this is very much the case; she simply does not want me to meet her needs while she's still in her fantasy; too many of the "reasons" she has for continuing in the R are based on my NOT meeting those needs, so why would she help me meet them? It would only make her feel guilty about the A...

I need to re-read SAA...

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC--- don't worry at all about follwoing my humble ideas.. just suggestions.. and yes... going by what I like... so maybe a little close to another woman- but definitely you KNOW HER and what she wants...

I see the post above about while EA going on hard to meet needs... YOU HAVE A LOUD SECOND... my H is not allowing me to meet his needs...

so perhaps put in your plan to steve harley... that wife allow you to meet needs.. more... by stopping all contact NC with OP! Somehow discuss this with steve and get his take on it... if you feel like it.. just a suggestion.. not trying to be bossy... I KNOW I CAN BE! Everyone in my fam. thinks I am majorly bossy lately.

HUGS SPACEY... you are doing way more than your share here... YOUR marriage will benefit from all of this.. it is worth it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HONEY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Faith...I have never purposely berated or belittled your input. If I have, I apologize. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You haven't. And I know it wouldn't have been on purpose if you HAD. No apology necessary! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I was simply trying to identify a possible tweaking in your communication style that could be part of your plan that you are developing here.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

(See? If I was trying to develop a plan to meet my H's needs, ya'll would have PLENTY to help me with! I sure didn't mean to hurt your feelings, and I wasn't looking for an apology!)

Anyhoo... I'm real proud of you for working on this. I'm glad dreamland posted his reminder also. Keeps things in perspective. Yes, the A continues.... but I thought you were simply working on the assignment Steve gave you... to do the best PLan A possible, and to outline and develop a plan of action.

I know you're tired and frustrated. I hope you are doing things for yourself - fun things - to get your mind off this stuff every now and then. You really are doing a great job. I hope my suggestions didn't make you feel overwhelmed. Take what you can use, and be proud of the efforts you're making!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I hope your W is proud too ... even though she probably doesn't realize or admit it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Faith...I have never purposely berated or belittled your input. If I have, I apologize. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You haven't. And I know it wouldn't have been on purpose if you HAD. No apology necessary! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I was simply trying to identify a possible tweaking in your communication style that could be part of your plan that you are developing here.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate your pointing it out, because you're right. I have to stop doing that with my W.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Anyhoo... I'm real proud of you for working on this. I'm glad dreamland posted his reminder also. Keeps things in perspective. Yes, the A continues.... but I thought you were simply working on the assignment Steve gave you... to do the best PLan A possible, and to outline and develop a plan of action.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I am doing the assignment, but still, the expectations of honesty, committment and thoroughness from my W should be lower than they are right now. And that helps alleviate the frustration. It's easy to get carried away and start believeing she's actually giving it her all when she's obviously not.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I know you're tired and frustrated. I hope you are doing things for yourself - fun things - to get your mind off this stuff every now and then. You really are doing a great job. I hope my suggestions didn't make you feel overwhelmed. Take what you can use, and be proud of the efforts you're making!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I hope your W is proud too ... even though she probably doesn't realize or admit it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably not doing enough for myself, but trying. Still; very tired and frustrated.

Heck, today we discussed our LBQs...that was painful! Same thing; no matter what I say it sucks, no matter what good things I say to her, she still only sees the bad....all in all, not a productive, positive thing which is what it should be.
It's really almost a farce while she's not committed.

Spacecase

I thought I would chime in here. This may be repeating what others have told you but I thought I would throw in my two cents.

1. Conversation....talk about the little things and be interested. Do you have to talk about the EA? If not, then don't. Show her that you can have a conversation about, say daily activities, without the subject of the EA coming up.

2. SF....Getting her to talk to you about it can be a difficult one. I know I have had a hard time with this one. My reasons for that were that I have low self-esteem, poor body image, and have a tendancy to put others before myself. Would these apply to your wife? If so, then it is something that she has to work out for herself but you can help. Tell her how beautiful you think she is. Tell how much you want her. When you touch her, ask her something like, "Do you like that? Would you prefer if I did it like this and/or on this spot?" This may help her come out of her shell and talk to you about SF. And also most men need to understand that when a woman's need outside the bedroom get met, she is more likely to meet his needs inside.

3. Financil Support...Can't comment...not an important one for me.

4. Admiration...point out all the things she does for you. Especially the little things. For example, tell her that you appreciate her doing the laundry. Again, tell she you think she is beautiful and you love being with her.

5. Affection....a kiss, a hug, and smack on the butt for no reason at all. Hold her hand in the car or while sitting on the couch together watching tv. Anything non-sexual. That is really the key, in my opinion. It has to be non sexual on your part. I know when my H started meeting this need for me and I saw that he didn't expect to go to the bedroom that is exactly where I wanted to go.

Just some thoughts from a female FWS. I hope they help.

Regretting

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>Spacecase,

Do not be too hard on yourself about the EN's. If the EA is really still going on, you will be unable to meet her EN's. There is a big division factor with any of the needs you try to meet for her. This has nothing to do with you at all.
...
You can improve filling EN's, but she truly will not fully appreciate or even care until the A is dead.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SpaceCase,
I believe this entire post made a lot of sense -- to me at least.
Does not mean we don't have to work our butt's off to improve our delivery, but I feel it is important to have relaistic expectations as well.
I am sure Harley is tryinf=g to address the "A" thing, as I understand he agrees with this premiss - I have never heard of any true recovery program where the A is still going on -- talk about a "oxy moron" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
To me, the person's basic mind set could be similar to "A" still going on - For example, in my case, I sometimes believe that my W is so much into her MLC thing & seemingly strong need for complete freedom to do whatever she wants, that the mere thought of a "marriage" conotates restraints and shackles! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Best of luck!
HH

<strong>Love Busters Questionnaire Exchange</strong>

Yesterday my WW and I "presented" our LBQs to each other. NOT a pretty picture, I assure you.
You'll see why in a minute.

This is the order of her LBQ:

<strong>1. Angry Outbursts
2. Annoying Behavior
3. Disrespectful Judgments
4. Selfish Demands
5. Dishonesty</strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>1. Angry Outbursts</strong>

My "Angry Outbursts" cause my WW "Extreme Unhappiness"
The frequency of these is 2 per Month
The form they take is:
"Screams, blames, body language, faces"
The form that causes the greatest unhapiness is:
"The screaming; it makes me feel very scared and unprotected"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Upon questioning, she admitted that <strong>she DOES NOT believe these outbursts are "Deliberate Attempts" to hurt her.</strong> Now this is important because although I know this is wrong and I have to stop it (actually have stopped the screaming completely, and have improved in all the others) I think it's important to note that I have never done this as a deliberate attempt to hurt her. It is only my very emotional and frustrated reaction to her nonsense, lies, deceptions, and basically her dishonoring of previous agreements.

At this point, with the levels of frustration I have, and the on-going A, the continuing lies, I'm not sure I can do much more about this, but I would like some ideas if you have them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2. Annoying Behavior</strong>

My "Annoying Behavior" cause my WW to experience "Moderate Unhappiness"
The frequency of these is _ (blank) per Month
The form they take is:
Blank;
The form that causes the greatest unhapiness is:
"I really don't know what to say!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great! This is REALLY helpful, isn't it?
When I asked her, she said she did not know what it was, that she could not put it into words.
I asked again and she said "when you say you'll do something and then don't do it". So I asked like what?
She thought about it for a minute and said "like doing exercise. you said you'd do it and you don't."

So what do I say to that?!?!?
If I don't do exercise, how does that affect her? I'm not overweight, In fact she says I'm looking a lot better than I have in a long time....how does this affect her?

And if she can't think of a SINGLE annoying Behavior, WHY would it be Number 2....?

At this point I said something like "look; the objective of doing this is to give each other enough information so we can change/improve, etc. If we don't give each other enough information, how will it work? How can I guess what you want?"
I also brought up the SF example; and said the same: "How am I supposed to change and make it better for you if you can't tell me what you like, don't try to figure it out, don't talk about it?" Probably an LB, but really! What is it I'm supposed to do?

Again; it feels like she is just not trying. Doesn't want to take the time, doesn't care, I don't know.
From here on out, it was just a bad day. Of course it again degenerated into her tirades about how I'm always right, how she has to apologize, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. you get the picture.....conversation and communication over.

Am I wrong in thinking she just does not care?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>3. Disrespectful Judgments</strong>

My "Disrespectful Judgments" cause my WW "Extreme Unhappiness"
The frequency of these is 1 per Month
The form they take is:
"He makes me feel like he's always right, that whatever I do is not good, That my ways are not good. He always makes me feel that I need to apologize."
The form that causes the greatest unhapiness is:
"#2 because at the end I always feel like I have to apologize"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll give her this one. She does not explain her point of view on anything. When I say "I think we should do this", she'll either make a face or nod, or say "OK", and then she proceeds to do the exact opposite. So it's not even a matter of negotiating; she doesn't negotiate, explain her position, and I'm left holding the bag. Because if she disagrees, she needs to say so. And especially NOT say "OK"...because later, it just comes back to haunt me. I'll say "you said you'd do this, and you didn't do it"....and of course, then it starts all over again; I'm always right, she's always wrong, and she has to apologize! Drives me NUTS!!!!

Any ideas?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>4. Selfish Demands</strong>

My "Selfish Demands" cause my WW "Extreme Unhappiness"
The frequency of these is <strong>1 per YEAR</strong>
The form they take is:
"I guess we all make selfish demands, but H doesn't do it very often. I feel that inside of him he thinks: she's not doing this for me so I won't do that for her."
The form that causes the greatest unhapiness is:
Blank</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What can I say?
Yes I know that many times I will feel somewhat like that, but since we can't talk about it without getting into fights, I often don't. Just have no idea how to handle this with her. We can't talk, and things are always left unsaid, and resentment builds, and all kinds of weird subconscious stuff takes over, and when we realize it, it's like where did that come from?

I feel that I am very well able to talk, negotiate, compromise. I do it EVERY DAY at work, under very trying circumstances, but somehow with my W, we can't. I feel strongly that she has become less and less able to talk to me because of the mounting lies and deceptions she has built over the years. Not because of how I react or because I'm unable to negotiate. Thing is, for her, negotiate is getting her way, not compromising by understanding the other side's position and finding a solution. So since this is not something I will allow all the time, she doesn't even try. Therefore; it's easy for her to say "he's always right, I'm always wrong, I have to apologize"; great excuse, when she didn't do anything about it in the first place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>5. Dishonesty</strong>

My "Dishonesty" causes my WW "Extreme Unhappiness"
The frequency of these is BLANK
The form they take is:
"Again, I don't think H is dishonest with me and lately we've been trying to be as honest as we can possibly be."
The form that causes the greatest unhapiness is:
Blank</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I have nothing to say about this. Only would point out that she says I'm honest, but it is "we" who are lately trying to be honest with each other....there must be some freudian explanation for that...

So, here I am again; trying to stop my LBs when I haven't really been told what they are, and trying to figure them out by questioning, which only gets me hammered for asking....I think she's not trying, not being honest, and just just going thru the motions for some unknow reason. Perhaps she thinks this will magically "go away" if we don't deal with it....just great!

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

It's just a thought... but my WW tries to transfer her guilt and other things to me a lot. It's not that she was involved... she was trying to get me to terminate the marriage... so, over time she convinced herself that certain things that I did or didn't do, we "driving her away".

It wasn't that I didn't love her... it was that (her thoughts) I wished she was someone else. Once her A started, the fog of confusion made it worse and anything that I did was credited against me.

This may be what's happening here. Or not. Only she really knows I suppose.

Hi Spacey... It sounds as if she is still not totally on the program....

Let's get real.... WW wants perfection, right. Sorry I am a bit angry that is what my H wants too... me to be perfect... Like he will not love me as I am... oh correct me... he loves me, just can't live with me in my crazed state of mind (Oh, and was that over the Affair?)

Hugs to you, Honey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lyxa:
<strong>It's just a thought... but my WW tries to transfer her guilt and other things to me a lot. It's not that she was involved... she was trying to get me to terminate the marriage... so, over time she convinced herself that certain things that I did or didn't do, we "driving her away".

It wasn't that I didn't love her... it was that (her thoughts) I wished she was someone else. Once her A started, the fog of confusion made it worse and anything that I did was credited against me.

This may be what's happening here. Or not. Only she really knows I suppose.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lyxa; It's very hard to express, but I believe you have it right on the money; I also see a lot of "accusations" coming at me for things that she does all the time!

Also, the position that nothing can really be discussed without her getting angry and ending coimmunication could be her defensive mechanism to impede progress. By impeding progress, she doesn't have to face her "demons", and she doesn't have to deal with erasing all the negatives she's convinced herself that I have...or <strong>she doesn't have to face the reality that maybe I'm not quite as bad as she's made me out to be in her mind. I think the answers in the ENq and LBq bear that out pretty well.</strong>

Very, very convoluted, but very very real!

Thanks for your insight!

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>Hi Spacey... It sounds as if she is still not totally on the program....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey; you made me laugh! This is the UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR!

Not quite with the program? Please! She doesn't even know there IS a program!!!!!!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's get real.... WW wants perfection, right. Sorry I am a bit angry that is what my H wants too... me to be perfect... Like he will not love me as I am... oh correct me... he loves me, just can't live with me in my crazed state of mind (Oh, and was that over the Affair?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not the "seeking perfection" that I mind...you know, we all want things a certain way. It's the NOT SEEING WHAT WE DO HAVE, AND NOT RECOGNIZING ANY OF THEIR OWN FAULTS...seeing everything so one-sided! That's what kills me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

If you look at our ENQs and LBQs, <strong>I'M</strong> the one who should have been having the A!!! (Assuming, of course, that the only way out IS to have an A!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />