Some interesting things have happened, and I'd like to run them by the forum for feedback. Coincidentally, over the last few days with my family visiting here, we've had the opportunity to discuss things that resonate and parallel our dilema.
First, my brother's wife decided to separate from him, telling him that she's not sure she's in love with him anymore, so he's going through some turmoil because of it. I spoke with him at length, he's been visiting MB, they are in counseling, and generally thay are working to figure things out. It turns out that she has an old male friend who lost his wife to ilness some time ago, and she's always had a close emotional tie to him. Being the suspicious guy that I am, I feel she's having an EA, but I'm not sure; just don't have all the details. (But that's another story). The point is that in talking about this I said something like "well, at least she's been honest in saying what she feels (that she's not sure she's in love with my brother), and she's moved out and they are going to counseling, trying to work things out. At least she's been honest with him."

The other incident involves my son; it turns out he found out that his ex-girlfriend was seen dating another guy while they were still dating. He was out of town, at college whan this happened. So he was very upset about this, and went to talk to her, and he was upset. Natural. My W asked me if I'd spoken to S about what happened and I said yes, he found out about this, and he's naturally very upset.

After these two conversations, I said to myself; I wonder if any of this is feeling like the same thing that's happening to us? I wonder if my W is seeing some parallels here and maybe getting certain messages?

Well...it had. Today she tells me she wants to talk. She had also told me a few days ago that she wants to go to FL again to visit friends. I didn't say much, but I let my displeasure show. So we're sitting downstairs and she says to me; "I felt like you were sending me a message when you told me about S's girlfriend." I said "No. I was just telling you what he told me and what he felt about this." She then says "Well, I felt like you were sending me a message about that. And what about when I told you I want to go to FL? Why did you make those faces?" so I said "Well, the truth is that I believe you are going to see the OM; that these trips to FL are just an excuse to go see him." She asks why I feel thi and I tell her that she still does a lot of things that make me feel suspicious, including renting a car while in FL which she did not tell me about. Then she says "I'm feeling like no matter what I do, what I have shown you, the fact that I'm here with you is not enough. That you are never going to trust me or believe me, and if that's the case, I think we should end this relationship." and I said "Well, if that's the way you feel, I don't have a problem with that."

We then went into a long conversation where I said that although I recognize that she's here, and she's trying, and we're Cing with Steve, and that I see all of those as very positive, and I see through those that she does want to fix our relationship, that I still feel that in the area of trust there are more things she could do, and more importantly perhaps, things she could stop doing, which would help rebuild trust.

She feels very strongly that what she has done should be enough, and she also feels that we are going nowhere because if I cannot trust her and forgive her with what she has done already, then there's nothing more we can do. She does not see that although there is a corelation between seeing what she's doing and feeling that she wants our R to work, and with trust and forgiveness, that there are varying degress of each, and that although I may not trust or have forgiven her, I DO see what she's doing, feel it is positive, and feel that she does want to make it work. In her view, If the whole package does not come together, then there's nothing. She cried during this, she says she sees the changes in me and she cannot imagine, did not imagine, that I still distrust her like that. That If I still distrust so much, I'll never forgive or trust again. I told her that I believe there are still a great many things she could do to rebuild trust, but she hasn't done them...

At the end of this I asked her what she wanted to do. Did she want me to leave now, or did she want us to discuss this with Steve on Tuesday? She said we caould talk to Steve about it.

Questions; Did I blow it by bringing these things up? Should I have said anything about the rental car? Was it OK to say "Fine; if you want to end this now we can." Does the fact that she came to talk about it mean anything? (I think it does; she's seeing me care less and less...I think), any other observations?

I'm thinking this may perhaps be just about the right time for Plan B? What if I plan it for when she returns from her trip? I can pick her up at the airport, drop her off at home, deliver the letter, and take off to my new place....I'll have the time to prepare everything while she's gone.

On the other hand, I DON'T yet have definitive proof of continued contact, although I do have a TON of circumstancial evidence...so maybe I should stick to the original plan of getting that, confronting and deciding based on her reaction....

Please give me your thoughts and impressions....some of you are very good at reading between the lines and interpreting things...

<small>[ July 11, 2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hi Cadet,

Well I just posted a response to this on your other thread. I like U but not enough to retype my 'short response'. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So please go and read it over there.

Just want to add 1 thought, please think about it after you read my other response.....

Your W should really be concerned about meeting her MIL. Now that she is in the same boat.

L..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Hi Cadet,.....

Your W should really be concerned about meeting her MIL. Now that she is in the same boat.

L..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Hi Cadet,.....

Your W should really be concerned about meeting her MIL. Now that she is in the same boat.

L..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you mean my mom...I actually have not told my mom about any of this. It will break her heart...I know I have to, but just have not been able to bring myself to doing it.
Told my dad and brother, but that's different somehow.

I don't think you did anything wrong. You need honesty and openness from her. But do becareful about how you 'drag' it out of her. As for her trip to FL, you probably can contact the bureau of prisons and see if the OM had any visitors on said date(s). Or you probably could have a lawyer get the information for you, if the FLBoP doesn't provide citizens with any information. Also check to see if there is a FLBP website. They might list mundane information like this.

OR... if you wanna get in the car next time she goes to FL, you and I could probably get the information that you are looking for... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm about ready for a road trip anyhow.

You and I are really going to have to sit down over a cup/bottle and catch up. I'm sorta behind on your situation.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Please feel free to call me whenever you want to talk H. I'm here for ya, okay?

Communication without fighting is good.

I think she needed to hear all this stuff. I worry it was to soon but it's done. Steve should reinforce everything you said - and I bet he will use this as an opportunity to explain about trust.

You can only go on so long, and it looks like you used this as a chance to say all the things you have been feeling for months. It sounds like she could actually talk for the first time about it. None of us were there, so we don't know how emotional it was for both of you, I have to think it was a little bit exciting. You seem calm as you relate it. Are you OK? Is she? Do you need to re-assure her that you love her?

You need to get a few other things across to her. It's not just "if you want to end this now, we can." It should be " I love you and don't want things to end. I BELIEVE we can still make it work, but if you want to end it now, I will respect your wishes." Don't leave her wondering where you are coming from. If you need to add that this has emotionally scarred you and depleted your ability to trust and that's why you need help, then do that too.

There is another thing, and it ties in with trust. Does she trust you ? I mean, you have made these changes and you are actually nice now.

Does she trust you to always be this way? If yes, you could explain that she wouldn't trust you if you had not changed your behavior. If she still has issues, you can explain that it takes time, and it is the same with you trusting her, it will take time and changes for it to work. I think you could expand on this enough for her to understand somewhat where you are coming from. It goes both ways.
You can point out that if she did visit him in Florida, if she still contacts him, you have every reason not to trust her. If she did not visit, and does not contact, why not help you out and open up and show you. After all, you have been trying very hard, tell her that and ask her nicely for help ( as we discussed once before.) I don't think you need get a confession out of her for that to sink in. ( At least, if she has come as far as it looks like she has.)

I think back to what faith1 said in commenting on her top 5 needs. As you fill your need to find out what is going on, don't forget that the primary purpose of plan A doesn't include you knowing about your W's A. You need to continue to make changes, demonstrate you can protect and care for her. If you can't do this, none of the rest of this will help you at all.. I am not trying to say I think this conversation was bad, or that you are not doing well, I just want you to remember what your main job is in all of this. Your main job is to protect and care for her. Every time you talk to her, keep this in mind.

Find a way to get this across to her between now and her session with Steve. She needs to know you love her now more than ever. I think many small things will do more right now than large ones.

We continue to pray for both of you. Don't let us down, give about 150% for a few days and make this work. ( we all know it's her turn, but you need to do it anyway.)

I really intended to comment on your needs thread, if I ever can get there, I will.

SS

"Did I blow it by bringing these things up?" ...NO. There are skills associated with having a good marriage, and being willing and feeling safe enough to speak to each other from one's softest and weakest part is one of those skills. You showed vulnerability. You exposed your underbelly to her. I think this is OK. Part of you growing your own skills ... in a non-LB style.

"Should I have said anything about the rental car?" ... YES. It is a legit question. If I had rented a car out of town, and did not tell Mr. Pepper ... and he discovered I had done this ... he would ask me what the car rental was for ... (and he is not the least bit suspicious of me.) Did she tell you why the Florida car rental was necessary? Or, on the other hand, did she immediately jump right into "You are never going to trust me or believe me!"?? ...If she did not say why she rented a car and put all those miles on it ... and, instead , she tried to change the topic of discussion and make it SPACE's total suckiness as a trusting husband ... it was a feable cover-up effort.

You are in a very interesting place. Sort of an undertow area of your marriage. The water looks calm enough ... but there are currents unseen that will pull you into danger and peril if you are not a good swimmer. Continue your swimming lessons with Steve.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

She's definatly trying to turn this all around to being your problem. She's rattling her swords and testing you by telling you the relationship should be over if you still can't trust her. Definatly no shows of real cooperation on her part. BUT...I'm not sure "I'm fine with that" is the right answer either. It comes off uncaring and counter-defensive. Maybe "I understand, this doesn't fit my idea of what I want from a marriage either. I'd be very sad to see it end, but I can't accept things the way they are if there isn't any promise of change."

Anyway, it's definatly good there is some discussion going on. The parallels in the rest of your life has to give her something to think about.

SC:

Well, I'm back!

I just saw this thread, and wanted to note a couple of similarities to my situation, and to what SS said to you.

Yes, you are probably right that your son's situation got to your W, but don't expect too much of what YOU read of that to sink in. I've had similar conversations with my W, and it's amazing how able she is even now to separate her own life from those around her, even those close to her. I believe it has to do with the time that it took to construct this world of hers, and so it'll take time to deconstruct it.

"Then she says "I'm feeling like no matter what I do, what I have shown you, the fact that I'm here with you is not enough. That you are never going to trust me or believe me, and if that's the case, I think we should end this relationship." and I said "Well, if that's the way you feel, I don't have a problem with that.""

I've heard exactly the same words from my W, even as recently as weekend before last (the day I called you). Only, when she asked whether we should give up, I didn't "bite", but then, I don't think I AM ready to give up, complicated houses and family situations notwithstanding. But the way she said it, I think it's pretty clear that she's still very much on the defensive regarding any mention of OMW's H. And so it's probably true with your W, too.

So, what to do about it? I think SS hit the nail right on the head, here. Plan A isn't about snooping and confronting, it's about bettering yourself and making your M a safe haven for your W to choose for herself. At the same time, you DO need to talk, and I would agree that the conversation was a net positive step. So was ours last week, even though I felt worse than I had since D-day afterwards.

I hope this helps a bit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>Communication without fighting is good.

I think she needed to hear all this stuff. I worry it was to soon but it's done. Steve should reinforce everything you said - and I bet he will use this as an opportunity to explain about trust. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be right that it was too soon. This was not a conversation that was planned. It is the FIRST time in many many months that she has approached me and said she wants to talk, and I had no idea what it would be about, so I did not plan any of it.
It caught me by surprise some, and I had to improvise, but it was all calm, no LBs, no loud voices, no recriminations. It did surprise her to hear that I still don't trust her; I don't know why, but somehow she believes I should...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You can only go on so long, and it looks like you used this as a chance to say all the things you have been feeling for months. It sounds like she could actually talk for the first time about it. None of us were there, so we don't know how emotional it was for both of you, I have to think it was a little bit exciting. You seem calm as you relate it. Are you OK? Is she? Do you need to re-assure her that you love her? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I didn't say ALL the things I've felt I need to, but some of them. And we could talk about it. It was a good conversation.
I am calm. I was calm yesterday also. And I think she saw something she has not yet seen much from me, and that is my determination to do this the right way; no short-cuts, no sweeping under the rug. AND that I'm willing to leave if it's not done right. I think this was a revelation to her. She has tried very hard to not deal with this, to find a way to keep the OM going and keep us, and I think she felt that when it came down to it, I'd buckle under. And I told her that that was not going to happen, that I was willing to end it...I think that surprised her.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You need to get a few other things across to her. It's not just "if you want to end this now, we can." It should be " I love you and don't want things to end. I BELIEVE we can still make it work, but if you want to end it now, I will respect your wishes." Don't leave her wondering where you are coming from. If you need to add that this has emotionally scarred you and depleted your ability to trust and that's why you need help, then do that too. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right, and I did some last night; I held her, kissed her, and told her I love her. Same this morning. Then today, after reading much of the feedback, I sent her an e-card which read:

<strong>W - You are my world

Yesterday you said something like "you are a wonderful man, and you deserve to be happy, you deserve better.." I've been thinking about that, and the fact is, it is you that I want, you that I need, it is you who is the best I could ever hope or wish for. You always have been, and you always will be.
And that is why I am here; working hard to show you my love, show you I can be better, and show you that I care very deeply for you. Show you that even though we don't have much trust right now, I firmly believe that we can have it, and I'm willing to give us the time it takes to do it.
I love you and don't want things to end. I BELIEVE we can still make it work; this can work if we both want it to work, if we both put all our efforts into it. But if you want to end it now, I will respect your wishes.</strong>

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
There is another thing, and it ties in with trust. Does she trust you ? I mean, you have made these changes and you are actually nice now.

Does she trust you to always be this way? If yes, you could explain that she wouldn't trust you if you had not changed your behavior. If she still has issues, you can explain that it takes time, and it is the same with you trusting her, it will take time and changes for it to work. I think you could expand on this enough for her to understand somewhat where you are coming from. It goes both ways. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is still an open question. She has to have gained SOME trust in me, in that the changes are real. Whether she's convinced absolutely? I'm not sure; don't think so. But I've been doing the best I can to show her the changes are real and permanent.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You can point out that if she did visit him in Florida, if she still contacts him, you have every reason not to trust her. If she did not visit, and does not contact, why not help you out and open up and show you. After all, you have been trying very hard, tell her that and ask her nicely for help ( as we discussed once before.) I don't think you need get a confession out of her for that to sink in. ( At least, if she has come as far as it looks like she has.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't quite put it that way, but I did say that I thought there were more things she could do to improve trust. She has been very relustant on this point, and I know it is because there still IS contact. She cannot reveal these things until it's over.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think back to what faith1 said in commenting on her top 5 needs. As you fill your need to find out what is going on, don't forget that the primary purpose of plan A doesn't include you knowing about your W's A. You need to continue to make changes, demonstrate you can protect and care for her. If you can't do this, none of the rest of this will help you at all.. I am not trying to say I think this conversation was bad, or that you are not doing well, I just want you to remember what your main job is in all of this. Your main job is to protect and care for her. Every time you talk to her, keep this in mind.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I try. Don't always succeed, but I DO try to keep this in mind. Steve has helped with this a lot too.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Find a way to get this across to her between now and her session with Steve. She needs to know you love her now more than ever. I think many small things will do more right now than large ones. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will. I have been in my best Plan A behavior, loving, close, etc. And I think that's the best message; that even though I don't trust you, that I believe you are still in contact with the OM, I'm still here, I'm still loving you, and I'm still trying...I believe we can make it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
We continue to pray for both of you. Don't let us down, give about 150% for a few days and make this work. ( we all know it's her turn, but you need to do it anyway.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you all SO much! I will keep trying. I put a call in to Steve so I can run this by him before our session tomorrow. Hope he gets a chance to call.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"Did I blow it by bringing these things up?" ...NO. There are skills associated with having a good marriage, and being willing and feeling safe enough to speak to each other from one's softest and weakest part is one of those skills. You showed vulnerability. You exposed your underbelly to her. I think this is OK. Part of you growing your own skills ... in a non-LB style.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you're right. And it was very un-LB-like; a good, close conversation.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"Should I have said anything about the rental car?" ... YES. It is a legit question. If I had rented a car out of town, and did not tell Mr. Pepper ... and he discovered I had done this ... he would ask me what the car rental was for ... (and he is not the least bit suspicious of me.) Did she tell you why the Florida car rental was necessary? Or, on the other hand, did she immediately jump right into "You are never going to trust me or believe me!"?? ...If she did not say why she rented a car and put all those miles on it ... and, instead , she tried to change the topic of discussion and make it SPACE's total suckiness as a trusting husband ... it was a feable cover-up effort.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I didn't go into all the details of the car rental, the miles, etc. because I did not want to risk another blow-up from her. I only mentioned it "in passing" as the type of thing that keep me from trusting. I felt that if I got into a drilling of the details, she'd explode as she has before. I chickened out.

She explained the rental by saying that she'd told me she needed time alone, to get away, and that she'd gone to a huge outlet mall and to an orchid farm. This does not explain 600 miles on the car. I didn't push it. She did NOT explain why she had NOT told me about the rental in the first place.

I think it was a feeble cover-up, and if I'd brought up the timing, dates, the miles, etc. she would have had to back up some. But I didn't. Maybe I will if the opportunity arises, maybe with Steve....

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You are in a very interesting place. Sort of an undertow area of your marriage. The water looks calm enough ... but there are currents unseen that will pull you into danger and peril if you are not a good swimmer. Continue your swimming lessons with Steve.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I wasn't sure where this was headed and that's why I kept it as non-confrontational as possible. That's whay I asked for feedback...I wasn't sure if it was OK, terrible, or great. Still don't. But all in all, I think it was OK, and it DID bring to light some things that needed it. Perhaps it has accelerated a Plan B decision, we'll see how it goes with Steve and what happens next.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">W - You are my world

Yesterday you said something like "you are a wonderful man, and you deserve to be happy, you deserve better.." I've been thinking about that, and the fact is, it is you that I want, you that I need, it is you who is the best I could ever hope or wish for. You always have been, and you always will be.
And that is why I am here; working hard to show you my love, show you I can be better, and show you that I care very deeply for you. Show you that even though we don't have much trust right now, I firmly believe that we can have it, and I'm willing to give us the time it takes to do it.
I love you and don't want things to end. I BELIEVE we can still make it work; this can work if we both want it to work, if we both put all our efforts into it. But if you want to end it now, I will respect your wishes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My feeling is that this is exactly right. Great response, it is easy for us to come up behind and think a lot and tell you what you should have done, but you got it, and did what you should do.

Space, keep it up, don't let her responses get you down. She can still "get it." Keep up the good work.

SS

<small>[ July 08, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>She's definatly trying to turn this all around to being your problem. She's rattling her swords and testing you by telling you the relationship should be over if you still can't trust her. Definatly no shows of real cooperation on her part. BUT...I'm not sure "I'm fine with that" is the right answer either. It comes off uncaring and counter-defensive. Maybe "I understand, this doesn't fit my idea of what I want from a marriage either. I'd be very sad to see it end, but I can't accept things the way they are if there isn't any promise of change."

Anyway, it's definatly good there is some discussion going on. The parallels in the rest of your life has to give her something to think about. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks H4F; I realized this last night and today after reading all the feedback, and I think I did OK. Last night I was very firendly, loving and kind. And today I sent her an e-card expressing what you just suggested.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:
Yes, you are probably right that your son's situation got to your W, but don't expect too much of what YOU read of that to sink in. I've had similar conversations with my W, and it's amazing how able she is even now to separate her own life from those around her, even those close to her. I believe it has to do with the time that it took to construct this world of hers, and so it'll take time to deconstruct it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't really plan any of this...it just happened. All I did was emphasize that my S is right in feeling like he does, and that my B is doing the right things; Cing, working on it, etc. The only dagger I added was that I said "at least my SIL is being honest in saying she's not sure she loves him anymore..." That, I admit, was a direct hit aimed at my W. Amazingly, she didn't even bring it up! But she heard it; believe me!

And I agree. It will take time to deconstruct. That's OK...provided we are moving forward.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"Then she says "I'm feeling like no matter what I do, what I have shown you, the fact that I'm here with you is not enough. That you are never going to trust me or believe me, and if that's the case, I think we should end this relationship." and I said "Well, if that's the way you feel, I don't have a problem with that.""

I've heard exactly the same words from my W, even as recently as weekend before last (the day I called you). Only, when she asked whether we should give up, I didn't "bite", but then, I don't think I AM ready to give up, complicated houses and family situations notwithstanding. But the way she said it, I think it's pretty clear that she's still very much on the defensive regarding any mention of OMW's H. And so it's probably true with your W, too. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, in my case I think it was necessary to say that. I have felt for some time that she just does not believe I'd leave, so she's settled into the comfort of having me and the OM. I couldn't perpetuate that thought...had to say it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So, what to do about it? I think SS hit the nail right on the head, here. Plan A isn't about snooping and confronting, it's about bettering yourself and making your M a safe haven for your W to choose for herself. At the same time, you DO need to talk, and I would agree that the conversation was a net positive step. So was ours last week, even though I felt worse than I had since D-day afterwards. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree too. Plan A is not about snooping and confronting. My particular situation is because Steve needs to get somewhere, and he knows we can't get beyond a certain point without ending the A and having it in the open. And since she insists it's over, we have to create a situation where it does come out, and it is either ended or not. Can't move forward without it. What use are "fake" ENQ and LBQ answers when we have to devise plans to work on them? What use are "fake" assurances that she takes responsibility, or that she's sorry, etc. We can't continue down that path without having the A end and in the open. That's whay we're doing it this way, no other reason.

Thanks 2L!

ILuv....where are you?

I was out sick yesterday. I haven't been on the MB boards since Wednesday!!! I have missed a lot of episodes of "As MB turns". I will try and jump in at some point! I feel missed! Thanks for that!!

ILuv...I'd still like your interpretation of this one if you get the chance...thx <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SC,
its really hard to tell. On the one hand she may be falling into cake walking. Steve says:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The whole counseling thing and whatever else she is doing might be her just appeasing you (as bramber said). That is when they will do the minimum to keep you because they want both of you. When I found out about continued contact I listed 9 boundaries for H to come home. At first he said they were all ridiculous. So, I said okay then NO, you can't move home... then he said okay then I'll do 3 of them but come on the rest are crazy...So, I said okay then NO, you can't move home...then he said okay then I'll do 6 of them... and I said basically "you know what, you have already made up your mind, its all off" he said okay I'll do all 9... and I said no, there is just no committment and responsibility from you and I don't want it like this... My requests were things like: no going out to the sports bars without me, that is where he use to "say" he was going. In a normal healthy relationship, yes, my requests would be obsurd but with our history, it was not even negotiable. I think you may need to get a more hard A$$ approach with your W, BUT since you are in counseling you MIGHT want to check with Steve first (he is the professional).

IMHO, when people hit rock bottom they are willing to do whatever it takes. She has not hit rock bottom and may need to. She has NOTHING to gain if you go to Plan B - most WS go run off to OP, but your wife would be EXTREMELY lonely if ONLY OM where meeting her needs, with him being in prison, it would be impossible. I knew a woman who was addicted to crack and entered several govt programs BUT always ended up back on the street. It got to the point where none of them would take her back because it was wasting their time and resources. Our church pulled some strings and got her in. She would complain about some of the responsibility they put on her (laundry for the whole facility). My thought was...IF you really want the help and knew you couldn't do it alone THEN you would be willing to use your own toothbrush to clean the toilets, I mean, there SHOULD be a desparation...they have to WANT it bad enough. I hope you see the parallel in that story and yours.

Do NOT be moved by her tears. That is an excellent manipulation tool that women tend to use to get their way. NOT ALL women. But come on, step back and look at what she is putting you through.

You said in one post to me you were gonna cut your wife some slack because she is not there yet. BUT what is it going to take for her to get there???

Steve talks about how the fog lifts and returns and lifts and returns. I think that is what your wife is going through. I think she is still riding the fence.

Does she know that it takes 5 years to get over an A? Is she willing to do the hard things and ride it out with you? WS, would love if we just push it under the carpet and pretend it never happend BUT it doesn't work that way. That is what I did when me and H remarried in 1997. We never addressed the issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm feeling like no matter what I do, what I have shown you, the fact that I'm here with you is not enough. That you are never going to trust me or believe me, and if that's the case, I think we should end this relationship." and I said "Well, if that's the way you feel, I don't have a problem with that."

She feels very strongly that what she has done should be enough, and she also feels that we are going nowhere because if I cannot trust her and forgive her with what she has done already, then there's nothing more we can do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The above statement shows she is not accepting her responsibility of what she has done and IMHO, she is misunderstanding the whole Plan A. She thinks the relationship should end??? I think in her mind she thought that was NEVER gonna happened because of your Plan A. She may be thinking that you would NEVER do that and she was using it as a threat to get you to cut her some slack.

And as far as "trust and forgiveness"... The WS loves to throw those out there. My comment is always: I don't trust you because you have been untrustworthy. DUHH?! and as far as forgiveness, I think you can love and forgive them but that has NOTHING to do with recovery. You can divorce as an act of love and have completely forgiven them. IF they continue to go the same destructive path loving them is letting them go. IT IS NOT Plan A'ing.

I think you handled the WHOLE conversation VERY well. You are doing really good expressing your feelings w/o LB. You are also doing good to let her know she is free to go if she chooses - that helps them feel less trapped.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Questions; Did I blow it by bringing these things up?

NO, this was good.

Should I have said anything about the rental car?

YES, ask...ask...ask...she has to be willing to be open and honest about everything and they have to be willing to be held accountable of there time and money.

Was it OK to say "Fine; if you want to end this now we can."

YES, very good.

Does the fact that she came to talk about it mean anything? (I think it does; she's seeing me care less and less...I think), any other observations?

It could mean that she may be trying to see where you are to see if she can take her FL trip. Kinda trying to make you feel secure so she can go see OM without worrying about you snooping etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the FL thing is huge and you should NOT minimize it. I think you are getting closer to Plan B ESPECIALLY if she chooses FL/her self over you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if I plan it for when she returns from her trip? I can pick her up at the airport, drop her off at home, deliver the letter, and take off to my new place....I'll have the time to prepare everything while she's gone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think this is a good idea. I think you should be completely open and honest and tell her you are making arrangements BEFORE you do so she can make a better decision of whether or not she wants to go to FL.

IMHO, you don't need proof of continued contact to go to Plan B at this point. Her unwillingness to do the hard things (not being sneaky about computer/phone IF that is even considered hard) IS all you need to go to Plan B. Fact, WS had A. Fact, WS is not willing to go above and beyond to repair the damage she is done. Equals, Plan B.

Haven't you been in Plan A for 8 months or so? Keep in mind I am a HUGE Plan B advocate!!! ONLY you know when it is time to go to Plan B. But IMHO, she knows what she has in you with your Plan A effort, she will miss you if your gone and will be willing to do "whatever" it takes to win you back. BUT there are no guarantees, it is not a game, you MUST be willing to let her go and she may be out of your life forever. But at some point, that option just doesn't look so bad.

Thank you, ILuv. You've given me a lot to think about...

Spacey, Your wife was playing you .. or being childish.. whatever you want to call it! when she sd that little comment ... above.. about how you should trust her more! GET REAL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> not trying to be mean to her or you...

I dont really think you want the m to end... so dont say it, if you dont mean it... good rule of thumb... now can I do this too?

Anyway....

I think the ecard was sweet and good, always can be touching....

Hey, I asked my h out the other day.... I know you might frown on that on evite .com and he loved it... try taht, and plan a dinner or something...

As for the florida trip... does she have reg. clients there? who does she go with... tell her you are uncomf... and maybe she can poja with you on the florida trips... I know she is not cooperating... ! but please...!!!

hope you are feeling better, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />