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OK, first, I am not married. I am single. Second, I did not seek my MM out, he sought me. I actually told him I wouldn't continue the A after I found out he was married, but there was a spark, and yes..I am weak, I am not perfect, I fell in love.

Yes, I speak from confusion because I want to believe him because I don't want to think I've been a fool. However, I just wanted you all to know that we are not these seething people preying after your husbands. They portray themselves as weak, hurting, lonely, love and sex starved men. Right or wrong that is what they are saying. In all honesty, I want to talk to her and know what he's told her. Yes, she knows about the A. She knows since a month after it started and then he moved out. He's not been back since. That was a year and a half ago. But they're still not divorced. I understand all the psycho stuff about me being an enabler. I also know she is too. You're right it's hard on EVERYONE. It is the worst thing I have ever experienced, but I love him. Just like you do. I'm sorry. I can only appologize to my MM's wife. I wish she were here and I'd do it to her face. If I could walk away I would, but I love him and I believe he wants to be with me because that's what he tells me. I would never ever want anyone - not another woman, not the wife to ever go through this and I am very sorry.

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By the way, Dancer - I am not at all hurt or offended by your response it was honest and I do feel your pain and hurt and I don't take it personally. I wish I could help you or make you feel better. I am sorry that an affair has hurt you so bad and I'm sorry my presense in this forum has brought that to such a "real" place for you. I will duck and run. I have mostly been a lurker. I feel awful for the pain his W must feel. I guess that's why I've been around. My guilt. I'm sorry I reminded you of the realness of your pain.

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confusedasyou

thanx for the reply, i really appreciate and accept it. I hear what you are saying.

I love my H and I want another chance. I believe he can fall madly in love with me again and that we can have an even better marriage, restored and rejuvinated by God. I feel that if the WW in my Hs life was not around that he might be able to focus on me more clearly, without talking about all my failures and weaknesses to her, which she would encourage as she thinks she loves him and wants me out of his heart.

Is it possible someone like you could help me or will others chime in after this and say thats not appropriate?

Dancer

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Dancer...

I'm not certain whether we should reply here. She seems uncertain/unwilling maybe to actively decide to end that R despite what she's up against. Don't know.

I'm afraid that responses could bait the situation into a heated argument. I do wish her well, though. I can understand a lot of what she could be going through--the withdrawal, the loneliness, fear, etc.

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dear bluekeyes-i havent heard the word bennies except for jersey-are you from here?

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confused...

There is something I don't understand - it is hard for me to not be angry at you because you sound so much like my H's OW...she wrote to me once saying how she understood my pain, and how it would be best if all of our children were brought up by their biological Moms and Dads, but with all blah, blah, blah...and then she tried to justify it all by saying that we all deserved happiness and that if you couldn't find it with the one you are with then by all means you should find it somewhere else.

I do not begrudge anyone the need to fall in love and be with that person. But both people need to be "free" to make that choice. And yes, it is a choice - no matter how you justify it with emotions, it is a choice that you are still in a relationship with a MM.

Just like how I, as a BS, choose to hang in there even though I KNOW I don't feel a 10th of what the OW probably feels for my H right now.
I'm actually glad you posted to this thread because it gives me a good view of what I'm really up against. So as to the original post - why do I hang in there...
1. I'm not ready to be divorced
2. I don't believe that a divorce will ever be in the best interest of my son.
3. I still believe that we can fall in love with each other and have a great marriage.

I say this with the caveat that as I Plan B, all 3 of those reasons dwindle little by little daily.

The best thing about this whole experience is that it has opened my eyes to what a marriage needs to stay healthy - I was very ignorant about that. Plan A has taught me that I can change things by just learning new habits. Plan B has taught me that "patience is a virtue" must have been said by a BS...LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Actually, Plan B means that I can make it just fine on my own with our son.

Lo

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"And then she tried to justify it all by saying that 'we all deserve happiness'" ......

Well, this is a common statement that I absolutely disagree with ..... This OW of yours is 100% wrong!

"We all deserve happiness"

..?..? says WHO? ..?

Happiness is INTERNAL .... created by our OWN attitudes .... created by our OWN efforts .... created by our OWN goodness of spirit .....

NONE of us "deserve" happiness ... without our own efforts. If we think we "deserve" effortless happiness (or borrowed or stolen happiness) ... and we are NOT happy ... then others are to be blamed for our own state of mind!

You cannot deserve something you need to earn yourself. You cannot deserve something you steal or borrow from others.

Silly statement this --> "We all deserve to be happy" ... What she really means is "I deserve to feel happy without doing the good and difficult things I should be doing to earn my happiness. "

Sheesh!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 20, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nikko:
<strong>dear bluekeyes-i havent heard the word bennies except for jersey-are you from here?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nikko: no, I grew up near Lake Erie. Lot of east coast influence there, though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pepper and Local:

I agree. Much of my willingness to work on this M stems from the fact that Ds are NOT good in the long run on families or children. PERIOD. Now, there are times when it's probably best for all concerned to divorce. But, I believe those times a fewer than the statistics we see concerning divorce. Kids sufferer, wives are generally in a lower economic bracket, that sort of thing. And men generally do not do as well after a D or in a second marriage, either. Statistically, Ms stemming from As are not long-term or viable. I don't have any numbers here, but they're available.

Additionally, I am not going to fight the selfishness argument here... basically because we are all selfish beings to some extent. But, I also think selfishness needs to be balanced with unselfishness towards those we choose to put in our lives or those to whom we're connected--spouses, children, friends, family. Why? No man is an island unto himself. And I agree w/you. It is written NOWHERE that we all deserve happiness. We deserve our OWN lives, and that's about it. What we're born with: ourselves. We take the responsibility on our own shoulders to DECIDE to be happy and work with what we have. It's why I struggle in part for this M.

<small>[ July 20, 2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: bluekeys ]</small>

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Everyone,
Although this isn't the direction that I first intended for this thread, I still am happy it took this direction. It illustrates a behavior that SH points out up on the web site. BS typically direct the anger and venom towards the OP not the WS. Psychologically we just can't accept that our S's did this to us so we villanize the OP. Some of that hostility has definitely been shown against Confused.

In my own situation I have heaped the anger on the OM as well. However he is not the one who lied about the nature of the "friendship." He didn't tell me that they only spoke 1 or 2 times a month vs. every other day. He's not the one who answered my questions about the phone calls with the words," you're being paranoid." He didn't create lies of commission and ommission on the days when they met for lunch. Although my W and I are in recovery there are days that the anger resurfaces, so I probably direct the anger towards him bc otherwise it might go towards W and that would destroy the ongoing recovery.

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Confusedasyou ....

You said, "They portray themselves as weak, hurting, lonely, love and sex starved men."

I am sure this is the lure ... the question you may want to ask yourself is this ... Why did you bite the bait?

What makes a "weak" man who has a proven track record of being lousy at relationship/marriage/commitment the man of your dreams?

As a single woman, you are free to be selective, and free to choose a man of strength, character, and honest values. Why not choose a better man? Why limit yourself to someone who is "hurting" and "starving"? Are YOU not worth a quality relationship?

You are really young, I suspect. How old are you ... I hope you don't mind my asking you this. Just to play fair, I'll tell you I am 53 years old. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

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CW,

Quite simply, because I still loved her. It took less than a day for me to know that I still wanted my wife and my marriage. I am sure ego had a hand in it as well. I too, had never experienced such trauma in my life. I had all the wild emotional swings, from hating her and what she had done, to asking myself why continue to be on this earth.

My marriage was, for all intents, over. When that finally sunk in my thick skull a year later, I gave up. It wasn't until I quit trying, and quit caring, that I saw REAL changes in my WS. Now she wanted to really do the work, really try to meet some of my needs. In short she wanted to save the marriage.

And while it is very difficult at times, things have been great. It was the best feeling in the world for me to look into my wifes eyes and see the look I remember so well. A look of love. A look of happiness. A look that says "I see nobody else but you, my husband." What a great token she has given me with just that one look. I missed it for so very long....sigh.

So I will say it again. I want recovery because I love my wife with all that I am. Always have.

jd

PS...WOW! Just went back and read the whole thread. Maybe I should remove my post? That's what I get for not reading a whole thread first...lol.
Well, too bad... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> it stays...sorry.

<small>[ July 20, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]</small>

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cw - sorry if I veered off subject. I did try to answer the original thread. I wanted to address "confused" because her words sounded so much like the OWs...I do blame my H for the betrayal that he continues to show! But how can you continue to be angry at the WS and still convince yourself you want to recover?! ...my anger tends to get directed at her because no matter what, the OW and WS convince themselves that what they are doing is "justified" because it is in the name of love and personal happiness...just as "confused" stated many times in her post.

Pepper - you crack me up!! I hate to say this, but I did a major LB when I received that email...she sent it to me on Mother's day of all days!! I sent her a blistering letter back ...among some of the things I said was that it was this philosophy of hers that has led her to her second divorce... I know, I know, it probably went in one eye and out the other - and it only gave she and H more fuel for why he shouldn't stay in the M. I talked to Steve H. about it after the fact, and I basically said that she was trying to not only justify the A, but was asking for my confirmation that it was OK...because we all deserve happiness. Gag me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

And as for jdmac1 - I admire you. I hope you and your wife stay in love for the rest of your lives. It is stories like yours that keep me hanging in there!!

Lo

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jdmac,

Good for you and the W. Maybe I'm just impatient because although our relationship is tons better unlike you I don't yet see the "look". As far as I know there has been no contact w/ the OM so I should be happy right? Well hopefully the look returns to my W's face also.

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Confused - definately dont reply to my bits here. Im not angry (or hostile) anymore, just confused like you but on the other side.

Dancer

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Dancer,

Again, I am sorry for your pain. I would definitely never do this again. Of all the people on this post so far, you're the one I can see will find peace and comfort and forgiveness for your S and the OW. Maybe not today, but at least you have a handle on the humanity of the situation - especially the part that you have feelings and you react to the feelings, but that doesn't mean the reaction is justified. Isun't that us all?

To those that have read my posts and feel that I'm justifying my actions aren't reading my words. I have walked away from my MM several times. He lived with me for a while. He doesn't anymore. That doesn't stop my love for him, but you are all right - he is still married and until he's divorced, he's not mine. I'm not stupid, I am weak and confused and fearful of being abandoned and alone. Just as you. Yes, it's very different - I don't have his children. I haven't been through all the ups and downs I haven't invested all that you have. I know that and I feel small and worthless because of it. I feel small because I wasn't strong enough to say no in the first place. I feel small because I would want to die if the situation were reversed. I have not the power or the ability to reverse the past though.

Whoever asked my age, I'm 34. I was married 8 years. I have a 10 year old daughter and I have been divorced 4 years. While you may think I "sound young", maybe it's because you can't face the fact that people fail. Good people, smart people, people like me and your spouse. Though I'm a single woman, I own my own home, I make over $75,000 a year and I am educated. My ex husband pays $0 child support, but I manage to have my child in private school have a 401K that's depressing me todeath right now but I put the maximum into it and I have no debt. What makes me sound young? Because you don't understand me? Because you haven't been me? I haven't been you either, but I'm wise enough to know that I, or someone like me has hurt you. It's not right - it's not kind and I know it's not God's ultimate purpose but it's happened. I have come here maybe to pay penance, maybe because I know I'll never have forgiveness from her. I certainly don't feel I deserve it - however, I am not the evil, depraved person you all think I am. I'm not flaunting my sin here, I'm sorry if you feel that's what I've done.

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Confused,
"I know you're not flaunting your sin." Relationships are never cut and dry subjects. In the perfect world you'd meet someone tomorrow who is single/ divorced and therefore available and this person would be in the position to meet your needs so that you get your mind off the MM. Although I don't know your MM, I do know the mind of a man and can say that if he hasn't committed to you by now he probably never will. Just as SH says on the web site these fence sitters are getting needs met by both S and OP.The proverbial "having their cake and eating it too." The reason they don't leave S is because most of needs are being met there and only a few by OP.

I know it sounds cold but there are other M out there that will treat you better than the MM. You deserve this better treatment. I think your D also deserves having a healthy relationship to view as her guiding example for the future. Look at the MB web site there is a section for OP's although I can't remember exactly what it says bc it didn't apply to me.

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Dear Confusedasyou~~~

"What makes me sound young to you ... because you don't understand me?" ... NO, not that. I actually DO understand you.

"You can't face the fact that people fail. Good people. Smart people." ... No, not that either.

You sound young to me because you ARE young to me! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am 20 years older than you. If you were speaking to someone 20 years your junior, wouldn't they sound young to you?? And, saying you sound young is certainly NO insult! Heck, I'm jealous you're so young.

Why did you take that remark as an insult?

"I am not the evil depraved person you all think I am." ...... No , you're not any more depraved than the rest of us. I don't think you are evil or depraved ... did you read those words about you here?

Why not answer the other question I asked you .... go back and re-read my previous post.

Why don't you seek out a healthier relationship? A relationship with someone who is strong and morally correct? I think you are worth more than being some married man's "side dish".

If he wanted a divorce, he'd be doing that.

Please ... treat YOURSELF better than this. You have a lot to offer a man. Pick someone who has everything to give back to you. This guy is using you.

Best of luck ...

Pepper (the elder) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

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Confusedasyou -

I dont think any of us think youre evil etc. Youre certainly made of the same stuff we are - unless youre from another galaxy.

Here this and think about what pepper and others have said - its a true story from Oprah with Dr Phil.....

A woman rang to say she had an affair with a MM.
Dr Phil asked when it started,
she said when she was 20.
He asked when it ended,
she said when she was 40.
He asked, why did it go on for so long?
she said, now get this confused -

BECAUSE HE KEPT TELLING HER, FOR 20 YEARS, THAT HE WAS GOING TO LEAVE HIS WIFE AND MARRY HER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Dr Phil asked one final question - and this is the bit I want you to take seriously even tho its pretty funny.....

WHERE ARE YOU AT WITH THE EASTER BUNNY???

For the best part of her life, and 20 years of it I might add, years that were meant for falling in love with a lifetime partner and having children, were stolen from her because she didnt protect herself. She probably wont ever have children now. And you wonder how she could have been so foolish? He would have convinced her day after day, month after month, year after flippin year that SHE was the only one he wanted, meantime his life went on, hers was on hold. Youre still young. Dont set yourself up now with regrets.

Think about it Confused, she was in a similar boat, and dont say your situation is unique, you'll find its hauntingly similar, that I can guarantee!

The patterns in your life will be set for your daughter if youre not wise in the choices you make. I know you feel lonely, heck I do too, we all do, we're here to help you thru it. You WILL find a decent guy who will be clean and come with the goods you need to have a happy and healthy marriage. Its going to hurt like hell, but youve got to think real seriously about how much you could be ripping yourself off of a wonderful future.

Dancer

<small>[ July 24, 2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Dancer ]</small>

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I have read the entire thread. Although it seems the focus is now on confused I am replying to the original question.

Why do we want recovery? I love my H there is no other reason. I hate what he did. I hate the pain he caused me and the problems he caused in our relationship. Our marriage was not perfect we had problems before his A but they were pebbles compared to the problems we are battling now.

I stayed with H for no reason other than I love him. It would have been much easier to walk away from our marriage. Truth is I would have been better off in many ways. However I chose to stand and fight for my marriage. I didn't have to battle the OW. The day she found out he was married she kick him to the curb. Did I get my H by default, no I don't believe so. He could have walked out the door and not looked back. He begged me to give him another chance. I made the decision to do so because I love him.

We are rebuilding our marriage. We have a long way to go but we are determined. I know the road is long and very rocky but I also know that because of the love I have for my H, there is no other road I'd rather be traveling.

Love....That's the only reason I want recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

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Well…I am going to reply to the original thread as well.

I am the BS. I am male of 30yrs old and we have no kids and we have been married 4yrs. I have done research on affairs, read about every book and for the first three months after D/day I wanted to repair my marriage. However, after several weeks of thinking…I think I have made the decision to move on without my W, even though she now says she wants to work on it. Here are my reasons…

I set some guidelines in place about three months ago that I would need to see from my wife. The first being true remorse. To this day she has never apologized to my face and has only sad that she was sorry once or twice in an email. When I ask her why she now wants to work on the marriage and two or three months ago she didn’t; her response is that the changes I have made make her think that I am someone she could like. When I ask her what changes she is making she says she doesn’t need to make any. I have tried multiple times to get her to understand that I was a miserable person to be with because of the relationship we shared and that she contributed to that failure. If she is going to come back as the same person…it won’t work. I still think she thinks the only reason she had an affair was because I was a bad husband. She has a very difficult time taking ownership for the failures in our marriage.

Some other reasons…life is too short to spend it with someone who is capable of causing me this much pain. I don’t want to go through the rest of my life with a wife that had such little disregard for me that she was able to hurt me in the worse way possible. I don’t want the shadow of her affair always hanging over us. I don’t want go through life thinking that I am second best, and that only reason she is her is because the OM went back to wife. I do care for her a lot and I do hate to end in divorce. However, the thought of going through life miserable is even more of a threat. She has been gone from the house almost 6 months, and I can honestly say that I don’t miss her. I know that sounds cold…but our relationship was so bad, that I am actually glad she is out. I now enjoy going home. I actually look forward to getting up in the morning. I actually look forward to life, and I look forward to the new chapter in my life that I will be opening. I have learned so much from this experience. I wish I could have learned this without the pain and the destruction of a marriage. However, there are thousands of women out there and I am going to make one of them a great husband and life partner….not only great, but the best.

I am not going to rush into a divorce. However, I am going to ask that we start moving that way. Seperating assets and debt and moving from there. If it is meant to be that we stay together it will happen. If not, we will both move on.

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: waiting and wanting ]</small>

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