Space~~~ I have to say, that last edit is a darn wonderful plan B letter.

Good job!

SC,

Yup, sounds pretty good...

As for your comment about 3 months of B... The great thing is, it'll give you some time and space to detach from the whole mess, and you might find new / different perspectives.

I know for myself, it is becoming easier... easier to let go, to see life without her... but also see "what's the rush" and "where's the fire" in terms of "getting away from her"... I AM away from her... so as for Dv, I'm more than happy to cruise along for a while here, let her suffer while I work on rebuilding myself - not an easy task, but one I know I need to continue. And now, I'm seeing signs of fog-clearing, although there's a LONG way to go (2long, really <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

(((Spacey))))

So sorry you're at this point - we are here mate!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have reviewed my mistakes and I am willing to work hard to create a new life for both of us that will meet both our needs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could you change it to "I've thought about my mistakes (less "business-like)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just cannot be with you or see you while you are still involved with OM and feel the need to have a separate life without me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you take that off the end of the last paragraph and put it at the beginning? just a personal preference for a strong finish.

That last paragraph is just beautiful - its straight from the heart and is really touching. I hope some man feels like that about me one day.

Good luck, I sincerely hope you don't need the letter.

Thanks again, everyone! It's truly amazing how the letter evolved...and I think it's about as good as it can be. Thanks to everyone who participated in it.

I made a few minor changes to the last version, the primary one being to remove the reference to the "cost of being apart", as I thought it was unnecessary and kind of manipulative. Here's that version below.

Also, perhaps some feedback on my thoughts of the length and "form" of my planned "plan b" will be valuable. Am I totally out of whack in my thinking that supporting her financially as much as I can might ensure a return for the right reasons? Does the short planned duration (3 months) then move to D sound resonable? Any good reason to prolong it further or leave it open-ended?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My Dear W,

This is a very difficult letter for me to write, one that has been weighing on my heart and mind for some time.

It has become evident that our M has suffered due to neglect by both of us. While striving to meet the needs of our family we have missed meeting each other’s needs. I sincerely apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your relationship with OM possible. I foolishly pursued my career thinking I was doing the right thing for us and our family, without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

I can commit to a marriage based on honesty, openness and mutual respect and care for the other's well-being. I can commit to marriage with you on those terms - I cannot commit to marriage on terms other than those.

I have thought about my mistakes and I am willing to work hard to create a new life for both of us that will meet both our needs. I cannot continue to do that until you end your relationship with OM and all other relationships and emotional commitments which require you to maintain a secret second life that takes away from our relationship, for once and for all. I love you and I want our marriage to work but in order to preserve my love for you I am no longer able to maintain contact with you until there is no contact with the other man.

Until then, I will need to avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you as much financially in meeting all of our current obligations. I will continue to pay the mortgage and I will provide you & the children with groceries and other basic needs, but I will not be able to pay for utilities or for your car and other living expenses. You will have to cover those yourself. I have made arrangements for the children to see or stay with me whenever they desire, but they should do it without you. If I should need to come to the house, I will make sure to do it when you are not there, or will make arrangements with the children to bring me what I need. I’d appreciate your leaving my mail in the mailbox as I will pick it up myself, until I make other arrangements. If you need to communicate with me regarding the children or any other matter, it should be through a friend or family member, (I might suggest D or B), unless it is an emergency involving the children, in which case I will take your call.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You may be aware of the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OM, and I simply cannot continue like this any longer, while knowing that you are with him, and hearing the sound of your voice when you speak to him; words I have not heard in many years. These things are removing the love I feel for you; so although I still love you, I must not see you in order to preserve the love I have left.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OM, demonstrate it in a credible way, and are willing to follow measures to ensure total and permanent separation, then we can talk about our future together. We cannot make the mistake we made in the past, thinking that by just ending the external relationship things would work themselves out. I believe we can jointly arrive at a positive plan that will ensure we're both happy with our lives together.

I understand how difficult this will be for you as well, and I will make every effort to provide you with comfort and support as we work through this together. Steve Harley can help us do this, as well as help us create a plan that we can both agree on.

I love you, W; you will always be very special to me. I look back through our life and I choose now to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I forgive whatever pain you have caused me and hope that in time you will forgive me too. I hope that we can work it out and be the best of friends. I hope with all of my heart that we can both put aside our harsh feelings and frustrations and see the good, and see the hope.

I just cannot bear to be with you or see you while you are still involved with OM and give your love and emotional connection to someone else. I’ve loved you since I met you, I loved you when we married, and I continue to love you today; perhaps even more than I ever did before. I look at the picture of us on the beach, and I remember the dreams and the hopes, the stars, and the sunsets we watched. I remember our first awkward time together, and I still believe those dreams are possible.
All my love,

Spacecase
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Could you put in anything about the Dali Lama? He has been left out of the news a lot lately.

Just kidding, Just kidding. Hope you still have your sense of humor, beats crying all the time.

I find I am not much good at these letters. I have looked at every one and said " thats really good." Then when the comments come out - I think " you know, that's right, makes sense."

But even if I am not very good at this part, I still care about you.

SS

I actually should! I respect the Dalai Lama tremendously and have enjoyed learning about him.

My sense of humor comes and goes, I guess...lately it goes more than it comes...

but I'm determined to straighten my life out, with or without my W. I just started reading "Passionate Marriage" and in the introduction, Schnarch says something very true:

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Going forward will cost you. Progress and personal growth always do. It may cost cherished beliefs you thought could protect you or show you a way out. It will cost you the "self" you've been to become who you want to be. You may already be facing similar choices-not because your marriage is flawed, but because it's part of marriage's natural processes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like this defines what has happened to me. As I have suffered and learned through this painful ordeal, what I have learned has changed me forever. I could not longer go back to what I was, and can no longer accept things I previously accepted. Perhaps those who said "Ignorance is bliss" are not too far from the truth!

As I've learned about M and Rs, the bar has been raised higher and higher, perhaps too high for my W to be able to ever reach it...it's an odd twist, isn't it? That as we've gone down this road to attempt recovery of our Ms, our standards have been raised, perhaps higher than our current spouses may ever be able to reach...maybe that's why we BSs suffer SO much in trying to "educate" them.

But we are, I think, changed forever. And we are forever better and more wise. So as we must always sadly depart from an enjoyable visit or friend, secure in the knowledge that we have gained, so we must continue moving forward with our lives, sometimes leaving behind some things we may not wish to leave behind...but we know there's no other way but forward. Still, I'd hate to leave her behind forever.

SC:

That paragraph out of PM caught my attention, too. I am still reading that book (it's LONG), and find it the most useful of the 4 I've bought so far.

Interestingly, my W saw it sitting there when I went to work one day last week and she stayed home for the day. She apparently started reading it. She asked me if she could read it when I'm done, and I said "of course!"

Don't want to push her to do anything, but that was certainly an encouraging request.

I, too, worry about "leaving her behind" in my personal growth. I hope I don't, but won't get my hopes up to high - I know how hard it hurts to have them dashed!

Sadly, I've just about given up hope that my W cares to look at herself deep enough and honestly enough to be able to embrace a higher state of M. She is too consumed by the fantasy, too sure of my faults to see any of hers, and, right now at least, probably too comfortable to believe any real change is necessary or desirable.

Her words to me when I confronted her were very telling; "We don't need Steve, we can do this ourselves"...she does not want to face what Steve has already told her we must face; she wants to "negotiate" with me for a lesser sentence, which she (probably rightly) believes she can get from me.

However, as I said in my previous post, the bar has been raised, and is unlikely to be lowered again to accomodate my W's desire not to have to face her own demons.

Perhaps in Plan B she'll snap out of it, but I sincerely doubt it. Over the course of this year I have learned way too many things about how bad things are and how she's hidden from it all along...she always prefers to run away from the problem, always has. And I have no doubt she will try to find a way to do it again, and perhaps succeed, Plan B or no Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But even if I am not very good at this part, I still care about you.

SS </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How rude of me...Thank you SS, that is a very nice thing to hear and, I believe, one of the finest things about those who share this space; WE CARE!

SC:

As usual, the thing that scares me the most about your post is the similarity to my own situation. Granted, the specifics are very different, but the running away from problems, the blame-shifting, the negotiating - all very much like what I get at home.

"blame-shifting and negotiating" ...... this is typical behavior for ANY OF US who are faced with a personal crisis that we are fighting to ignore! When we realize that we need to look at ourselves more critically ... our first instinct is to point away ---> "Look! ....SEE what I have to put up with from THAT person! If that person would just behave better I could behave better too."

Thing is this ... we need to behave better and make positive personal changes with or without their changes.

It makes no sense to anticipate or even to hope that our personal growth spurts will coincide with our spouses' personal growth. We are separate individuals ... as Schnarch explains ... however, when one marriage partner makes a change due to personal growth ... the other partner has a choice to make ... the status quo has been eliminated.

Our integrity development gives us much more power than you guys realize yet. Be patient. This is actually quite a mind-soul-expanding experience ... not to sound too morose, I think that (in a way) it prepares us for our death! (That's a whole 'nuther story for another day)Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Okay, Pepper... ...so, if having an A isn't necessarily good for our Ms, might we say that they're good for our preparing to die?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I know my W's has been!

Any struggle you can work through makes you a better man ..... think of the things you have already struggled with throughout your life ... think beyond the "A" .... the "A" is one of the things in your life that will challenge you to a higher level of functioning.

DaliPepper

Pepper:

Indeed. I sure hope I'm becoming a better man.

-Weedhopper

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"blame-shifting and negotiating" ...... this is typical behavior for ANY OF US who are faced with a personal crisis that we are fighting to ignore! When we realize that we need to look at ourselves more critically ... our first instinct is to point away ---> "Look! ....SEE what I have to put up with from THAT person! If that person would just behave better I could behave better too."

Thing is this ... we need to behave better and make positive personal changes with or without their changes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm with you up to here...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It makes no sense to anticipate or even to hope that our personal growth spurts will coincide with our spouses' personal growth. We are separate individuals ... as Schnarch explains ... however, when one marriage partner makes a change due to personal growth ... the other partner has a choice to make ... the status quo has been eliminated.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Meaning? They have a choice, OK and...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Our integrity development gives us much more power than you guys realize yet. Be patient. This is actually quite a mind-soul-expanding experience ... not to sound too morose, I think that (in a way) it prepares us for our death! (That's a whole 'nuther story for another day)Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yow! Not sure I WANT to know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And here I was, secure in the thought that my "mind-soul-expanding" experiences ended when I stopped....forget it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"...higher level of functioning"

Geez, DaliPep, I thought I was here to save my marriage, not to become a vegetarian and start meditating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

KarmaSpace

Sorry SC, DaliPepper's karma just ran over your dogma <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm stuggling to master Plan A and B, LoveBusters, Ms and Rs, and here comes Pep, starts talking about "the force" ("...gives us much more power than you guys realize yet. Be patient.") and stuff....too much for my diminished brain, then you start with the Karma stuff....and I'm facing a very reluctant WS's conversation with Steve tomorrow, the outcome of which is probably Plan B....too heavy for me today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Pass the Vodka, who cares WHAT it does with the Wellbutrin! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

You see, SS, that's the beauty of this place...it never fails, 2L starts with the sillyness, and my sense of humor is back in a flash!

And by the way, DO NOT mix alcohol with Wellbutrin (or any other anti-d I think) It is NASTY!!! even with just a couple of beers.

SC:

Humor is all I feel I have left at times...

...of course, now that I'm on Prozac, I don't laugh at my own jokes anymore... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />