Please forgive me...I pounded this out in extreme frustration, pain, hurt...

MC,

This is a major vent, so please bear with me, but there are a few things I wanted to cover with you, and some I need to ask you about.

First thing is this; I know WS tells you the A has basically been over, that contact has been sporadic, and generally she's downplaying the intensity and thus, its importance. And that worries me, because I know it is not like that. I believe that contact is pretty constant, but what is more worrisome to me is the content of that contact. Both from previous conversations I have heard, as well as from the tapes the prison officer played for me, the level of romance and commitment expressed is FAR more than she's letting on to. I mean stuff I have NEVER heard from her, or at least haven't heard in many years. "Please tell me that you love me..." , "I love you more than ever!" , "I can't wait to see you" , "you have NO IDEA what I've been through with my H here" , etc. etc.

Add to this what the officer said to me after she confirmed that she'd not allowed WS into the prison on 7/18. She said "Take care of your children. Don't hold onto someone who doesn't want to hold onto you, I recommend that you move on" Now we know this is an average individual who is not educated about infidelity, etc. BUT she is saying that because she talked to my W at the prison, and who knows WHAT WS said to her to try to get in to see him, AND this officer has been listening to all the tapes of their conversations as part of her investigation, so she has heard much more than I ever will, and if she's drawing that conclusion, there has to be SOME validity to it.

Likewise, although WS said she was not allowed in, I have no illusions as to phone and mail communications being stopped as well. The officer told me they had not been suspended, and that they could only suspend them IF it was found those means of communication had been improperly used. I have to go on the assumption that they still have those means available to them. It's not like the R is a moot point now because, as she says, "communications have been stopped"...they haven't as far as we know. And I certainly will not take WS's word for it, and neither should you.

Now please understand me, I am in no way trying to tell you how to do your business, but I would like to understand why these things aren't discussed between you and her. I think this is significant; we can't go on the assumption that this R is "nothing" when we know differently. Is it because this is not yet the time to talk about that at this level? Is there another reason for this?
As for my questions; there are many things she says that you do not challenge very forcefully: "The A is his fault", "It's always HIS feelings, what about MY feelings?", "When I DID end the A a few months back nothing happened, nothing changed", "I will NEVER write that (NC) letter!", "I will NEVER disclose my phone records!", etc.

Shouldn't we seriously challenge these statements? Don't we reinforce her belief that they are true/valid by NOT challenging them more forcefully?

You did challenge her on her belief that it was I who reported her to the prison and caused her to be stopped, and frankly I don't care what she thinks about that, except that it is yet one more thing she CANNOT discuss with me BECAUSE she does not discuss the R or the A with me. If she did, she'd have to admit it is ongoing and she WILL NOT do that. So it creates even more hidden, buried resentment that we will have to deal with...

Another area where we have not challenged her statements is that she generally gives no recognition AT ALL of my Plan A, of anything I have done all this time, on the contrary, she still insists that I'm out to get her, that I want to mop the floor with her, that it's always been Spacecase first, when will it be my turn, and on and on....I know; it's fog, but what is it going to take for it to clear? Why not ask "You haven't seen any changes in him?"...she tells me she has seen them, but she does not tell you that because it reinforces her overall stance of total self-righteousness.

Shouldn't we be challenging these statements? Please help me understand the reasons for that, or if it is the timing of it...I am very concerned, MC. If these thought patterns do not start changing in her, what hope do we have for this M?

Another important point is her treatment of my discussing our problems with other people. I have discussed this with my father, brother, our kids, and some close friends. WITHOUT exception, I have preambled all of those conversations recognizing my part in creating this negative environment, and my guilt in not meeting her needs, as well as my desire to change that behavior, and some of the work I have done to make the changes. However, she is CONVINCED that I am bashing her, and giving everyone a biased story, when that is what SHE is doing, not me.

For instance, what has she told our FL friends about her 1-2 day trips outside of their home when she's gone to see him? I don't imagine she's told them the truth. There was another friend out of GA to whom WS described my snooping behavior in excruciating detail, portraying me as some kind of nut case...of course she did not tell this friend that I was snooping because I'd discovered her A, she presented it as if I had just gone crazy or something....I could go on and on...just as she's insisted to us that the A is over, she has done the same with everyone else she talks to about this, so naturally, since it's "already over, how come Spacecase has not changed anything, how come he doesn't trust me, how come he does this or that"...you get the picture. She wants the "perfect" behavior from me, and the absolute and unflinching commitment from me, before she does anything more than pay lip service to working on our marriage? And she still insists that by the mere fact that she has not left me and is still "with" me, that this should be enough to satisfy ALL of my requirements...how dare I ask for more?

This is not right. She needs to start hearing that some of these things she is saying are wrong, and some of these assumptions are incorrect, and some of her perceptions and descriptions of my actions are deliberately twisted and distorted to support her twisted, foggy version of things. She is projecting many of her behaviors on me, and I'd just like to understand how and when we will be able to start addressing these, and if it is not reinforcement by omission NOT to challenge them...

Again, I apologize for the vent, MC, but these things cause me great concern.

Spacecase

WOW ... a great vent!

I could feel the adrenalin from 2 states away!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

((((((((Spacecase))))))))

I am sorry about all this.

I think maybe it would do some good to tell her upfront about all this, in a letter that describes all in a very tempered manner.

" ...No, I did not meddle with your visitation to OM. I let you go even knowing what you were up to out of respect for the adult person you are, knowing fully that I couldn't change your mind or stop you if that was what you really wanted. I hurt, I missed you, but I tried to respect you and treat you as well as I could even when the feeling was obviously not mutual..."

"...you may think I will hold the A over your head forever, I won't, I have seen you come and go, I have learnt your real intentions and said nothing. I know you WW, I know you well, I have learnt to pick things up from you because I love you and we have shared long years together. When you lie, I know you are. When you plan secret schemes, I know you are, it is easy to figure out, but i remain silent. Why? Because I have faith in you, in our love. I don't want to make you cry or see you cry, I don't want to see you miserable or see you wasting your life. But at the same time I know you are a grown up woman, with her own feelings, needs, cravings, aspirations and dreams. I am trying to supply for all of this real hard, but nothing I can do will work untill you let ME fullfill them all with no external sources for your needs, aka OM..."

"... I have talked to people we both know about the A. They know the deterioration of our R was partly my fault. I neglected you, neglected your needs, I was stupid and blind, and I am so very sorry for it. I have talked to people because I needed solace, I needed them to know we were having a rough time, so they could be helpful, and understanding. I am not looking for allies, or people to make you feel ashamed. You are my beloved wife, and out of respect I will protect your honor, even when it means comfronting my own family or best friends. If anybody bathmouths you I won't stand for it, because they don't really know what went on on your head, or what it felt like to be neglected. This is something for you and I to deal with, people judgement won't count.
By the same token, I hope the same behaviour from you, but I suspect otherwise, which pains me, but I try to understand..."

"... We need to talk about our R, about your A. We need to know what EN's I am not fulfilling that he is. We need to understand one another, we need to talk. You don't have to be scared, I have nothing to do against you, I love you, I am in love with you, I would never desire anything bad to come to you, and I will protect you with my life to prevent you from suffering..."

Maybe it doesn't make sense... (((((((((((SPacecase))))))))))))))

Hey Spacecase,

Talk about alien abduction, head screwed on the wrong way....eh? Unbeleivable, absolutely absolutely unbeleivable that your WW would still want to maintain with a criminal. Out of my interest: What is OM in prison for? How long?

You still want to save that marriage, that shows your strength and moral integrity. I lift my proverbial hat to you!

Watch your energy levels... Others in your situation may have thrown the towel some time ago already.

May the force be with you!

Space-

Good vent. I was wondering...how did you get a prison officer to play tapes of the jail phone conversations for you? Without a subpeona? I'm asking because I know my WS had a similar relationship with an inmate.

HoFS

Pep;
Two states? ... Is that all? I thought I did better than that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

ALW;
I think your suggestion is a great idea. And I will do it sometime. Problem is, if I do it now, she's not ready for it, she's still too far gone (passing Saturn, last I checked) for any of that to even register...and like everything else I have written or said, she'll just interpret it as she always has; through HER filter of the intentions she just "knows" I have, through her twisted projection of her own behaviors and thought patterns...it's too soon for logic to register, for her to look in the mirror.
Thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nick;
It IS unbelieveable, although I will grant her ONE thing; this is a teenage years friend, so she sees him as what he was, not what he became. Intent to distribute cocaine, Conspiracy to launder money, expected release date 7/2010. (minus some good behavior he will get, and barring a successful appeal).
Whether I still want to save my M or not is still an open question. What I am doing, however, is giving myself and our M the time and effort to know for sure whether I want to save it or not. Whether I CAN save it or not. And in the end, even if I cannot save it, I would like to at least help my W remove herself from this terrible person she has fallen for. She deserves better than that, and if it can no longer be me, then at least let it be someone worthy of her, who will care for her.

HFS;
It's a long story I am reluctant to discuss in an open forum, but there is an on-going internal investigation at the prison over "irregularities", and they contacted me.

Spacecase,
You may have posted here to vent but let me say, your feelings and frustration came through quite well. Your letter was very well thought out and questions were posed intelligently. Very pointed and valid questions, too, I might add. I wouldn't hesitate actually sending this to your MC to allow him/her an opportunity to address your concerns. (I'm sure most MC have heard worse!) Or do you feel that would make things awkward?
Praying for you!

Avondale,
I'm sorry you're in this too; your sig line...

I was going to send it to Steve (he's our MC) but thought better of it. I think I know she's not ready to address many of these things, and I would not presume to know better than he what and when to address this.

I'll ask him about it the next time we talk, but this was mostly venting over my frustration that my W is STILL SO far out in left field...asteroid field, that is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

great vent, agree with Pepper on that. It was so good that it bet we make a record for temp today in FB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

sing who is now going to try & cool off in the pool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

on the southwest side, just farther south & to the west of SC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear Space:

Great vent. It truly summarizes your concerns. Except for a convict's interaction with your children should she wait for him. I am curious how giving this to SH relates to your Plan B? Are you trying to direct SH in his future work with your W if there is any?

Just a question?

Jack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by willmakeitwork:
<strong>Dear Space:

Great vent. It truly summarizes your concerns. Except for a convict's interaction with your children should she wait for him. I am curious how giving this to SH relates to your Plan B? Are you trying to direct SH in his future work with your W if there is any?

Just a question?

Jack</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good question Jack. 3 things I can think of:

1. My frustration that my WW is still SO fogged
2. A legitimate question for Steve
3. Heads-up to Steve for future use

On the first point, I guess there's not much more to say...I thought we had made SOME progress on SOME of these after 11 months since DDay, 5-6 solid months of Plan A, 4 months of Cing with Steve, dozens of conversations and letters...etc.

On the second point; I think it IS a legitimate question for Steve (or any MC). What is the reason some of these things aren't challenged, and does not challenging them reinforce their belief/validity by the patient expressing them?

The third point is perhaps the most critical. IF she continues Cing w/Steve (I hope she does, Steve believes she will), then 2 things; first, IF I have not given him enough information about some of these points, and that's part of the reason he has not challenged them, then I want to make sure he has all the information.

And secondly, these issues will have to be addressed at some point, and I want to make sure he knows which ones affect me, and how I feel about them.

Like I said, I did not send this to Steve, I felt it was way too aggressive and it is not his fault she's so fogged, and he's probably got some very good resons he hasn't addressed this, and I was angry and frustrated, and it has nothing to do with him or his work. He has done a very good job of keeping her engaged, and perhaps he needs any "softening up" that might occur after I begin my Plan B to be able to start working on some of this.

I guess the only other comment I can make is this:

What hope is there for a M and a R where one of the members is so far off the charts that she is lying to her MC for 4 months, and thinks this is OK, that the lies are irrelevant to the work being done?

That, perhaps, is the source of my greatest sadness; that I may have found out too late for the problems to be reversible...

Space ... where there's life, there's hope.

I thought my child would be in incarcerated, or die by police, or overdose .... but, he is OK and better than OK today ... far exceeding any hopes I had last year!

"I will refrain from predicting the future"

10 more times on the chalkboard mister!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi Space:

As an information source for SH to understand your frustrations, it is great. Let us both pray that she continues counseling. I was concerned for you Plan B is for you to keep your love for you W as well as removing the EN's you are providing to W.

I was concerned that concentrating on your frustrations and "working" them behind the scenes would create expectations that when not realized would further erode your love bank.

Now is the time to build back Spacecase. Get the new job, strengthen yourself.

Enjoy the BBQ and the new shirt. When I do something like BBQ for a large group of people for a party my W is involved with I get so many deposits in the bank all I need is a little marinade behind the ears and it drives her wild.

I will pray for you and your family, Space.

All my best

Jack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Space ... where there's life, there's hope.

I thought my child would be in incarcerated, or die by police, or overdose .... but, he is OK and better than OK today ... far exceeding any hopes I had last year!

"I will refrain from predicting the future"

10 more times on the chalkboard mister!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right; there is always hope. And that's why I'm here. One day you'll have to tell me the story of your child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by willmakeitwork:
<strong>Hi Space:
...Enjoy the BBQ and the new shirt. When I do something like BBQ for a large group of people for a party my W is involved with I get so many deposits in the bank all I need is a little marinade behind the ears and it drives her wild.

I will pray for you and your family, Space.

All my best

Jack</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, Jack. I will enjoy them.

Unfortunately, although I completeley enjoy BBQing for as many people as she wants, and do it VERY often, to my W it has become so routine it's one of those things that "NOBODY EVER DOES ANYTHING AROUND HERE TO HELP ME!!!" so if there are to be $LB deposits, they'll have to come from the cologne and shirt...the BBQing don't do it for her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />