Okay, so WW went away for a few days this past week. We had some contact before that... Yes, yes, yes, I'm supposed to be in Plan B... I'm working with juggling some minimal contact - keeping my name in front of her. Not sure if it's best, but IC/MC seems to think she's "coming around". Or she could just be sensing an "opening" to reel me back with.

Anyhow, she borrowed a suitcase, and then sent me this message yesterday:

Hi J.R.,
Well, I'm back! The seminar went so well - from what I can tell!
Everyone was very encouraging.

[a bunch of work stuff.]

So, when would you like you suitcase back? Do you want me to bring
it over this weekend?

Hope you are well.

Miss you tons!

Love,
WW

I replied back along the lines that my planned camping trip away this weekend (which would have had her come over and check on the cats) has been moved to next, and that if she wanted to, could drop it off then... no big deal, right? Well, I think she was REALLY hoping to see me... so my saying this has undoubtedly been taken as a snub and an insult. (She didn't reply back, which is atypical as of late.)

I can't win. This is why CONSISTENT behavior is important, and why true Plan B is as good a stance as any, since you can't get caught in messy situations like this.

There, I beat myself with the MB 2x4.

Anyhow, this whole thing is just getting stupid. I'm sitting 1000's of miles from "home" and I have no real way of living the life I want to live.

I wrote this this evening (only as a vent so far, not sent):

Hi WW,

It crossed my mind that you might not have been happy to receive my response to your e-mail, asking if I wanted my bag back on the weekend. (I say that because you normally might have responded to my reply.)

I guess I need to explain again… that this is very hard for me. And that seeing you is especially hard, knowing that you’re treating me so well in words – yet unwilling to meet me where we need to get to, to even start. And in that way, lately I almost feel like an “other person” myself, as strange as it sounds.

So please don’t think I’m trying to hurt you or that I don’t love you or don’t want to see you. But I just need to reiterate my position again… you know it; you know what needs to be done. Without it, as false as it might be, I feel a bit used.

And it’s true: this won’t go on forever. We both know that. I will admit that I’ve been thinking about the future, and what I need. And no matter how much I love or loved you, I need to take care of myself, and start working towards something tangible. I want a family. I want a wife who wants me. I want you to be happy. And yet, I have none of these things, and no reason to believe they’ll materialize magically.

And my Taker is starting to make his case for possibly moving back to Canada. I came down here to be with you. Without you, I have no real ties here, no real reason to stay, other than the weather and some new friends. But I love my home and native land, and my trip only strengthened my resolve to be a little closer to my family. I won’t be here past the end of the year if we’re not together – I do know that. I think you have a right to know that. It obviously has implications for you, our finances, possible legal actions, etc.

I know you want me to be happy. I’ve “let you go,” with no expectations, and maybe you need to do the same for me. Maybe we need to say our final good-byes. I don’t know. I do know I’m not getting any younger. I do know I’m not happy in this spot. I do know that any path will be hard, but staying still is worse.

I miss you. I really do. I wish things could have been different, or that you’d be seeing things differently. But as I said, I can’t remain still. I need to take care of myself, and although I appreciate your kind words as of late, they also have a certain level of pain that can only be eased by being accompanied with action. If they were, I could not only forgive, but be happier myself, and work to make you happy, amidst all the pain. But without them, I feel self-resolve and self-respect guiding me properly, to protect me, to shelter me, to allow me to grow, to heal and to carry on – with or without you.

All my Love,
J.R.

I question the wisdom in giving her such a message, but it's what I'm feeling... doesn't she have a right to know what I'm feeling??!

I don't know... I just don't know tonight...

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

Hi JR,

Sounds like you had a need and took the opportunity to express it. Under normal conditions that would be a good thing. In the fog however, it can go either way.

So step back, brace up for a few strong winds and hang on. The MB 2x4 is padded. Hope you don't have too big a bump!!!

L.

Ooopse, Orchid must have read before I "editted" the post - I didn't actually send her the note... just wrote it for my own benefit for now... nope, I don't want to venture down that road without some MB guidance.

Anyhow, I think she's definitely still VERY foggy, no matter what IC/MC says. I think it's pointing more to her trying to reel me in vs. an honest change of heart.

I can't win... if I agreed to see her, I'd open myself up for hurt, she'd get in her gushiness, hoping to sway me, and probably think she's pulling a fast one. If I don't agree, she thinks I'm a big meanie and OM is so great, although she gets more solid Plan B treatment, has to live reality, etc.

<small>[ August 10, 2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

JR, no real breakthrough insight here, just my solidarity with you, as I have felt exactly the same so many times...we just can't win!

On the other hand, her non-response MAY not be what you think it is...just maybe? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

As for the message you composed; it's perfect! Except for one thing; she's not rational, and your words, although measured and non-accusatory, will no doubt be mis-interpreted in the weird WS way, and could backfire or create yet another LB situation.

I think you should let it be...she might come over to return the case, and you'll know better what's going on and if her words have any "substance".

Hang in there!

J.R.,

Do you need help w/ 2x4 ? ... I could help 'till you 've knocked down so that you won't be able to reply ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ... just kidding. It is a great post for plan B'er ... lesson learned.

-RH-

SC: On the other hand, her non-response MAY not be what you think it is...just maybe?

JR: Well... maybe?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I suspect she was going to be late tonight, and hence why she wasn't offering to return it earlier. She knew I was going to possibly be gone this weekend, too, so her returning it would have been to just drop it off... But my telling her things were rescheduled implies I WILL be around, and so more of a direct snub... but heck, that's just LIFE, BABY! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

SC: she might come over to return the case, and you'll know better what's going on and if her words have any "substance".

JR: Oh goodness, I hope she doesn't!! No, I suspect she'll be in full sulk mode. Of course, that doesn't bode well for OM, does it?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

RH: lesson learned

JR: Uh huh... Must treat these WS as children... if you give in once, they get the wrong idea... must enforce the ol' tough love. The key is to make sure they REALIZE it's LOVE in the first place... I don't think my WW gets that it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't win... if I agreed to see her, I'd open myself up for hurt, she'd get in her gushiness, hoping to sway me, and probably think she's pulling a fast one. If I don't agree, she thinks I'm a big meanie and OM is so great, although she gets more solid Plan B treatment, has to live reality, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">J.R.:

If she's REALLY hoping to see you, then it shouldn't be any big deal to her. Re-read what you just wrote. You have just said in so many words that either way you go, you probably will end up with the same results. So...You must do it where YOU gain the most.

I would think, if I were in HER shoes, and I was beginning to "de-fog", I would probably "accidentally" stop by to drop it off. Which is what you are looking for. Progression TOWARDS you, FROM her. Do NOT let her "reel" you towards her. She must "progress" TOWARDS you.

I really don't think it would be a LB if you stood your ground. But...allowing her to dictate when she sees you would, I think, be a small step backwards.

As to the vent letter, nahhhh...don't think I would give it to her. Shows her that she got YOUR attention.....bad move....of course, JMHO.

Hang in there....Stay strong. Vent to US here on the board. That's why we're here.

HCII

What hcii said.

Yeah, I hear you...

I think her possible (likely) upset is based on a loss of control, once again.

She hates Plan B, so when I was slightly available (and I do mean slightly), she was really, really happy about it. And it really bothers her, I think, that I can have a full life, without her (since she on the other hand I know is struggling to have ANY kind of life with OM).

But as is usually the case, I just need to wait a while to see what changes with her... the winds do shift regularly. If they'd just settle on one direction - any direction - for a while, I'd be so much happier.

As far as her coming towards me... so very true. If she's in a loving mood, she should be able to "forgive" my desire to handle things in a different way than she'd hoped... and not act like a spoiled child in the process. But she herself has admitted during this that she can lose her feelings for me so easily - I think that's true for almost all WS's. But it's fog clouding the way - the real feelings are still there, waiting to resurface yet again.

Standing my ground is important to me. I think if she's serious about pursuit, it would only act to reinforce my confidence and dignity. If she's fogged, she'll sulk, maybe try to talk to OM, and probably Plan B back at me. Right now looks like the latter.

<small>[ August 10, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

Let her sulk. Makes her feel worse...which only makes her miss you more because you make her feel better. You've said she's a smart one...well, then she knows she's the one hurting herself by not just taking the necessary steps. And I bet it really does burn her that she can't pull your puppet strings like she used to.

JR,

Heck, your logic doesn't even make sense to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You said you don't want contact with her, so you tell her to wait until next week. Then you worry that this might make her made and that is why she isn't contacting your NOW. Hello, JR, pick a plan and stick with it.

The way I look at this thing is that you need to plan to move to Canada on YOUR time scale. You need to decide to divorce her on YOUR time scale. If nothing changes, then nothing has changed and you move on.

If you want to her to move toward you , then sit still and see if it happens. If you feel that the only way she will move toward you is if you Plan A, I think you will be stuck with the same conundrum that you are in now: you won't trust that her feelings are true. But, if you wanted to send that email, I wouldn't slap you over the head. It is what you are thinking and she is your W and you should tell her.

Please note that there is nothing in MB that says that all moves must be a surprise. The should be evolutionary, and reasonable. Look at SC, he has moved out but he isn't in plan B yet, but it will come as it must.

So quit second guessing your WW, and make your own plans. If you have plans and want to let her know what they are, then tell her. If you want to just smack her with them when the time comes, then smack away. But, don't play the "what if" game with yourself and her.

You cannot win this. Because you are going to have to realize I am going to post to HT over in recovery. You are at her mercy, and there is nothing you can do about her decisions. She is at your mercy, there is nothing she can do about your decisions. IF, for some reason it was decided by the TWO of you, that it made sense to stay together, then do it. But, realize that no matter what you do or don't do, you do not control her any more than she controls you.

You could be out of here today, file for divorce, move to Canada, and there isn't one thing she can do about it.

So quit guessing, and start doing, planning, making YOUR life what you want. OK?

God Bless,

JL