As per a previous post (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=019572), I have some guidance now to go ahead and have a discussion with WW.

Since we haven't had a single discussion about where we are in literally months, Steve thought now was as good as any time, given that we have had some contact. The intent would be to ping her, and either start into some baby steps of progress, or back to the most strict of Plan B's possible.

I'm ready for this... I think it's a great idea... I'm ready to "take her on" - fog and all. It's like the ultimate elephant hunt. It's like we've been in a fight, and I've been softening her up for a long time... she has little outward anger towards me now, for example. So such a discussion now, with her knowing that I may be "looking at all my options" - might be far more productive. It forces her to reconcile her recent feelings of desire to pursue me with her A feelings (be them lingering or torrid).

Anyhow, I've crafted some notes I'll take into my evening meeting with IC/MC tonight... Maybe try some role-playing! Any input is appreciated. I want to have an airtight discussion that doesn't let her "weasle" away. She's either going to come down off the fence - one side or the other, or I'm going to hit her hard with "all I've got" - full Plan B, plus suggesting to her that she file and move. (IC/MC has marvelled at the fact that she refuses to move out of our old apartment - she could save 1-2 hours of commute each day if she moved closer to her work, not to mention $700 or more in rent.)

If anyone is interested and has MSN Messanger on their computer... It might be interesting to try and let me practice some "exchanges" with you (any FWS's especially??)... anyone game?

This meeting is going to happen Wednesday evening... I want it to start out pleasantly... might be the last chance to have a nice time with her again...

Notes

Things I could say:

“I just wanted to catch up a bit on where you are in terms of your thoughts, feelings and plans.”

“I feel like we haven’t communicated much about some key points that may help me in figuring out what needs to be done on my side of this.”

“I’m not trying to pressure you for any decisions or make demands or anything like that. I just want to know how you’re doing and maybe let you know more about how I’m doing, if you want to know.”

“So what are your plans?” (Expected response: None. My reply: “So are you content with that? Do you have any desire to change that?”)

“What do you want to be doing, WW? What are your goals for the next month, 6 months, year, etc.? What’s your ‘ideal’ scenario?”

“Where do you see us going with this contact we’ve been having lately?”

“What about your job? I assume you’ve already made a decision to stay on and continue working there beyond the end of the year?”

“Well, I believe we can be very much in love, but I obviously require your participation, and without it, it’s just too painful to interact with you, WW.”

“I assume you’re still seeing OM. In a lot of ways, knowing that makes seeing you like this very, very hard for me. And I hate putting you in a position where you need to be even slightly dishonest. But I’ve sort of been led to believe by IC/MC that things have changed, and that’s the only reason I’m capable of this.”

If she tries to assert that she doesn’t see him anymore: “I really want to believe that, WW. Can you talk about how things ended? Maybe describe where things were left? Can I ask some questions about that? I’m willing to leave that to a later discussion, but I think it’s a pivotal point that should be taken up, along with what you can do to help me believe that and reinforce it.”

If she admits that she still does see him: “Well, you know my position, WW. We can’t honestly make any progress of any kind while that’s happening.” (and then proceed directly to “resists rebuilding” section)

“How about you, do you have any questions of me?”

“I do have a business item also… it’s about rebalancing our accounts.”

Possibilities

If she seems receptive to rebuilding…

“Well, it’s encouraging to here you saying these things. I guess my main issue right now is in believing they can become bigger steps. What do you believe you can do to help achieve that?”

I.e., I’m throwing this back to her to show a plan that will work, yet is her conception, so she has responsibility and ownership. Any such plan would obviously need to be acceptable to me.

“Would you be willing to talk with someone who has some experience at helping people find some direction? I know IC/MC is very good – I think she is. But if I were diagnosed with a terminal illness, I’d get many points of view… so if you would consider it, it might be worthwhile to talk with Steve. He’s not out to tell you what to do, but maybe give another perspective that could be helpful regardless of what path you take. It’s just an idea, one of those ‘why not’ kind of things.”

If she seems to resist rebuilding…

“Well WW, it seems to me anyhow that there are still some substantial issues. And so I think the contact we’ve been having comes back to bite me in the [censored] quite a bit now, as I realize I’ve set myself up for more hurt and drains my love just that much more. That’s my fault, though, I’ll admit. But honestly, I need to protect myself from any more hurt.

And to do that, we need to end all contact again, but this time much more completely and indefinitely until one of three things happen: 1. I finish losing my love for you, 2. you decide to end our marriage, or 3. you decide to make an honest go at it before 1 or 2 happen.

I’m also curious as to why you’re still staying here in XYZ. If you have no plans in place, it would seem that this could go on for a long, long time, and does it really make sense to pay nearly $ABC a month in rent indefinitely?

Honestly… to let you into my mind, babe… I still care for you and have some hope, but I’m also ready to move on with or without you. And for me, moving on means getting the life I want to be living as a young and vibrant man – with happiness and genuine love for the rest of my life. I’m not getting any younger, that’s for sure. And I’ll admit that I’ve been longing for my home and native land more and more lately.

In fact, I’m ready for you to move ahead and file for divorce, WW. It’s never been my preference (and still isn’t), but I’m ready to accept it as a fact of life, after nearly a year of this. I’ve never stood in your way, because I’ve always said from day one that I simply want to see you happy in an honest way, whatever that will take.”

These comments tend to “push her away”, but also reflect my growing strength and confidence in my own path. I think she needs more of a sense of that – that my progress has far outpaced hers. She’s still on the fence, so this is yet another “push” for her, onto his side.

If she gets off onto tangents, anger, resentment, etc…

“I agree, WW. But we’ve been through that territory before, so I’d really appreciate it if we stuck to the question at hand.”

“I understand, and I’ve accepted my role in this, don’t forget. What I’m talking about here is…”

“If things are like you’re explaining them to me, can I infer anything into your current state, or progress, or lack thereof to date?”

“WW, I really don’t want this to degrade like this. If we can’t talk openly and frankly, then I think we’re in a much worse position than I could have ever imagined. Let’s stick to the topic at hand and listen to each other – I’ll try to do better with that.”

If she asks me questions, such as about how I’m doing…

“Well, this isn’t easy, but it is necessary to keep moving forward. Always forward towards something. I feel helpless and alone at times, but I realize I’m not.”

“To be perfectly truthful and candid, I miss you terribly, but I don’t miss having to live with you seeing someone else in my life on a daily basis.”

“My plans are to ‘hold on by my fingernails’ for a while longer. We’ll see. I don’t want to say for sure what’s happening, because I don’t want to sound like I’m trying to pressure you. You deserve to operate in an environment like we had when we were dating – open, free, happy, clear, care-free, plenty to look forward to, to the end of your days. I want the same for me too, and the only way I’m going to get there is by processing things and exercising my virtues, such as patience and kindness.

“I do see this as a test for me in many ways… as a definition of who I am and want to become. Not easy, but I’m coping, mainly because I’m learning about me.”

If she comes out and says some very, very foggy stuff, such as “it’s over between us”, etc…

“Well… at least I know where I stand now. Thank you, WW.”

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

Your notes look good to me. I have one suggestions:

"If she admits that she still does see him: “Well, you know my position, WW. We can’t honestly make any progress of any kind while that’s happening.” (and then proceed directly to “resists rebuilding” section)"

JMHO, but maybe it would be good to first let her know that you appreciate her being honest with you, but that "you know my position, . . ."

In any event, good luck and take care.

JR-

This may or may not work for you BUT this is what I did:

When I found out about continuing contact (D-Day #6), this is what I told my W...

"I know that I CANNOT control you, what you do and with who you do it with but I certainly can control my life and what I do. I have been a part of your 3-some game for a year now and I'm tired of playing your game. You have said over and over again that you never intended to hurt anyone but you CANNOT have an affair and NOT hurt at least one person. I have decided to file for D and take myself out of your game."

After calling my attorney, she panicked and dumped the OM. My W has a problem of being too nice to SOME people. I did all the right things in plan A for a year and she decided to use BOTH me and the OM (staying with me and keeping contact with OM) because that is what she wanted. She could not bear the thought of hurting EITHER of us, so she would have gone on forever, if I didn't force this. All I wanted was resolution and MAYBE now, I have it.

USE CAUTION!!

JR,
This looks to me like an excellent script! Perhaps some nitpicking on words here and there, but apart from that...heck, I'm copying it as we speak! I could probably use for my "chat"!!!

You wouldn't by any chance be in "IT" would you? I'm not sure if its use has spread to the general population but "Ping"...

If Orchid's game for the "live-chat" she'd be great! The Queen of Fogese! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

JR,

Well I could be game but I am tied up right now helping another MBer. Try to see if you can find SEM or KS (keep smiling). KS is the XWS and has helped several. She may be in a better position to provide support.

L.

Hey J.R.
I haven't posted on your threads for quite some time. Just let me say you are much more focused and appear more confident than you did even last month. Well done! It's very obvious you've been trying hard to look after yourself during this 'rough patch' in your life. I really can't add anything that some of the others haven't already told you...so, will wish you good luck and tell you to be strong. Keep your chin up! One way or the other this situation is working itself out.

J.R.,

In a word...Excellent! MHO

May I use some of your ideas on my WW? These are some of the most well-thought I've seen...

HCII

Thanks everyone...

Just got back from the IC/MC... nothing Earth-shaking... she seems to think I need to be up-front with WW about the fact that if we're not going to be together, I've been making plans to move away... hmmm... she must appreciate the "effect" such a statement might have, even though she herself has said she'd never support WW acting out of fear. But WW does seem to become far more "lucid" when things like this pop up.

IC/MC hopes, I think (along with Steve likely), that I DON'T go too far with her tomorrow... "too far" being hitting her over the head with the Dv line... I think I can rephrase things a little bit, and work on a strategy that moves us along in 2-3 "baby steps" to get us poised for a major move one way or another... I'm willing to push her off that %#$!!@# fence once and for all! (Want to do it with at least a certain level of love and "smartness" - I don't want to LB, and give her the justification she wants / needs. No, I won't make this "easy" for her, darnit!)

I also know that she's a bit off-balance at just the thought of talking. I set it up for us to have supper out, then talk. She admitted in her e-mail reply, "I have to admit, I'm quite curious about what all this is about. I guess I'll have to wait and see, unless you
tell me first." Good to see she can sweat too. Let 'er.

Tut... er, I mean Princess <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , I like the suggestion - I'll make a point of that, hopefully won't need it, however.

doogie... I've seen things go that way before, indeed. I just hope it's not necessary here. I need to be fully ready for the response I DON'T expect, so caution will be needed for sure.

SC... I am in IT! I'm a consultant / SW architect... both a blessing (the $) and a curse (the work itself in my past position contributed to the M problems).

Orchid... thanks for the idea... probably too late here anyhow, I could probably benefit most from more sleep than anything! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

mgm... I am focused, I think. I've thought at plenty of spots through this that I'm "ready" for something big, but was always ready to "back down". That'll be a big test... to first see if I'm put in a position where I might back down - and then whether I do it. This time, I feel so detached, I can really do what's best for me.

hcii, go for it...

I can't claim the total inspiration for this - it was "the man" (i.e. Steve) who suggested the concept and provided a couple of the questions, which I used as "templates"!

So if it's about goal setting, I think my goals are as follows:

- Get her talking to me more openly and honestly than "before"

- Attack her fog - which probably means fighting fog with fog, if needed

- Stand firm, strong and confident - but also kind and compassionate. I want to seem so much better than any OM who could exist!!

- Get some key info from her mouth - such as state of the A. After uttered, I will then do my best to verify "independently".

- Have HER set some goals - if she wants more contact. Kind of like bribing a child - but hey, if it works.

- Get her to state what she's done and needs to do yet before she's "ready to try", and even set a goal for what to discuss next.

- If she's clearly "out of it" - not willing to negotiate or be open - then I shut things down and go back to Plan B (for "real"), after calmly explaining how this is hurting me.

- Basically for me to act like Steve might, in dealing with a WS. I.e., be tactful, get them to paint themselves into corners, don't let them weasle away.

- Walk away from the meeting feeling good

JR,

How impressive!

When you meet, know that we'll all be there with you in spirit....backing you all the way.

Fingers crossed for you,
E_C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by J.R.:
<strong>IC/MC hopes, I think (along with Steve likely), that I DON'T go too far with her tomorrow... "too far" being hitting her over the head with the Dv line... I think I can rephrase things a little bit, and work on a strategy that moves us along in 2-3 "baby steps" to get us poised for a major move one way or another... I'm willing to push her off that %#$!!@# fence once and for all! (Want to do it with at least a certain level of love and "smartness" - I don't want to LB, and give her the justification she wants / needs. No, I won't make this "easy" for her, darnit!)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JR; definitely don't try to get everything resolved in one sitting. Unless she's like totally on-board and ready to go, it's better to slow down and make it 2-3-4 steps. Time to think, time to see if it's sincere, time to see consistency over a few days/weeks. I know it's tempting to "get it over with either way", you've worked too long and too hard to go risk blowing it now.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I also know that she's a bit off-balance at just the thought of talking. I set it up for us to have supper out, then talk. She admitted in her e-mail reply, "I have to admit, I'm quite curious about what all this is about. I guess I'll have to wait and see, unless you
tell me first." Good to see she can sweat too. Let 'er.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think these words from her sound positive. I imagine if she were not interested, she'd have said something like "I'm not sure what we have to talk about". In fact, she KNOWS "what this is all about"...how could she not? so I'd say it's a good sign...there's interest and expectation.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...That'll be a big test... to first see if I'm put in a position where I might back down - and then whether I do it. This time, I feel so detached, I can really do what's best for me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is the most important thing about reaching this "level". That although we still desire to re-build, we really are able to emotionally detach and do the right thing. Say no, move on, whatever. And there is nothing more important than that. The security this gives us is invaluable. And even better, when the WSs see that security and firmness, they get a very strong message that their game is up. I'll be reaching the 2 week mark in semi-Plan B tomorrow; and I am doing very well. I can do this for a while without any problem. This is the best thing to happen to my M in many months. Look how quickly she started showing at least signs of coming around! Wish I'd done it sooner!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC... I am in IT! I'm a consultant / SW architect... both a blessing (the $) and a curse (the work itself in my past position contributed to the M problems).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me about it! I was traveling 100% doing Project Management/Functional Consulting for enterprise systems implementations (Siebel, Data Warehousing, ERP) for almost 2 years. And my W's A started about 6 months after I started traveling full time! Like with you, the money's good, but the price we pay is high indeed!

E_C, all MB'ers there in spirit? I'm counting on it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SC, "definitely don't try to get everything resolved in one sitting"

Well here's where I've got an example to work from - namely you!! I haven't really taken this tactic with her throughout any of this, believe it or not! Go figure... try talking to her! (I shouldn't say that - I have tried in the past - distant past, within 2-3 months of d-day... not a pretty scene. But this is very different. A lot more time has passed, a lot more fantasy has gone bye-bye, a lot more reality has taken root, a lot more determination, conviction and RESPECT has been gained for lil 'ol me.)

I actually think this approach will represent doing a 180 for me.

"In fact, she KNOWS "what this is all about"...how could she not?"

Fair enough... Steve said I don't need to say things like, "You had to know I wouldn't wait forever." A DJ, since she DOES know, obviously. I just hope that in the heat of conversation that I keep my cool and use every ounce of wisdom. I don't want to say 1 word a minute, but I don't want to let her dictate the ebb and flow of things... By my seeming to be the one "in charge", I hope to leave her feeling like the direction of things has left her hands... It isn't about her "making a choice between 2 equally good options"... not by a long-shot.

"And even better, when the WSs see that security and firmness, they get a very strong message that their game is up."

Bingo. Even if she wants to continue playing her games, she's going to know that I'm not going to be there for her... Safety net gone. Suddenly I doubt it will seem nearly as fun. But I don't want to yank it away in "one sitting"... I'm schemeing here... Funny how this plays out often in slow motion with spurts of intense action... Here we go again with the action.

"traveling 100%"

That's killer. I didn't have to do much, thankfully, but badly estimated projects and huge heapings of responsibility left me overworked and underpaid for a long time. I hate thinking about how I changed over time, from someone who was very romantic to being a good pal to WW (with great SF on the side).