"If you've learned your lesson, are doing the work, does it do your BS any good to know about your mistakes?"

Let's say you are speaking in the short, short term. I agree. There might be situations where it is kind or prudent to wait.
Example: BS has current illness, BS is pregnant, other stress is currently maxing out BS resources, BS has a gun (or fast fists) and could become violent.

However .... <flames ahead> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

RIFF .... Does this mean that the WS has to support falsehoods throughout the rest of the M?

Let's say that 3 years from now, Neverthought is watching a film with her H ... Her H says "The adultery shown in this drama makes my skin crawl. What sort of [censored] would cheat on their spouse?" .... What's she to do then? Lie more? Hide more? Distance herself more from M intimacy ?

What if, 3 years from now, Nevermind's H says to her, "Sweetie, my boss just found out his wife is cheating on him. If you ever feel like cheating, PLEASE PLEASE tell me, so I won't feel like a fool!"

What would Nevermind say then??? "Yes dear, I will." ... and then what ??? Continue to lie???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This is not a good plan for long range intimacy of a marriage. NOT telling may save hurt feelings for the moment, but makes for a lousy marriage in the long run.

Do you disagree?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hey Pepper. I'm reluctant to start this...I'm kind of a "fan" of yours. I've learned a lot from what you've posted here. <gulp>

I get your point. But...

<strong>What if, 3 years from now, Nevermind's H says to her, "Sweetie, my boss just found out his wife is cheating on him. If you ever feel like cheating, PLEASE PLEASE tell me, so I won't feel like a fool!"

What would Nevermind say then??? "Yes dear, I will." ... and then what ??? Continue to lie????</strong>

Now, you have to admit that your scenario is rather contrived. I mean, of all the thousands of conversations that Nevermind and her H have, how often will something like this come up? Ever?

But I'll grant you that it might.

All I'm asking is, will it be better for Nevermind's H--if he had no clue about the A--that he knows about it? Is it better for him to carry the weight and pain of that? And the anger and fear? I'm just not sure that HE has anything to gain by knowing. I'm asking, should we consider sparing Nevermind's H this pain?

And you've read the WS stories: they tell of not being able to live with the guilt. Well, if you do something wrong, sometimes living with guilt is the price you pay. Don't you think?

Again, the A is *in part* because the WS put his/her feelings before those of their BS. In some ways, fessing-up is just more of the same. You have to see that.

So, then there's the question of intimacy. Intimacy is what makes a R real. I think, in your scenario, Nevermind and her H could indeed have intimacy, even if Nevermind had to silently carry this guilt. It's not *perfect*, but having an A leaves you in a situation that is less than perfect. I don't see the either-or (if she doesn't confess, there can be no intimacy).

--------------------------------------------

I wasn't sure if I wanted to go here, but actually the situation I'm talking about is my own. My W had an A about 9 years ago. I had NO CLUE. Months after it was over, she told me about it.

Knowing about it shocked me. Hurt me. Caused me to doubt my own judgement. Like, how could I be so blind?! And I've been on high-alert status ever since.

I'm here (MB) now, b/c she had another A about 18 months ago.

We never really did the "work" of getting thru the first A. Sure, my W felt better getting it off her chest. But I sure as he// didn't! I did not profit from her "honesty." My life was changed--damaged, really--forever.

And knowing or not knowing, we didn't build the kind of intimacy that we needed following the first A. We're doing that work now.

So I think the work required to build intimacy could have happened if I knew, or if I didn't. But only if we'd decided to. We didn't. And so here we are.

(((RIFF)))

I'll respond later .... being **flamed** by me is rather like taking a hot bubble bath! <ouch, ooch>

LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And knowing or not knowing, we didn't build the kind of intimacy that we needed following the first A. We're doing that work now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems that once we know about the affair, we have a choice to make...whether to do all of that hard work to figure out why the affair happened and repair the marriage. Some think that if the affair is over, that is all that matters and choose not to reveal the affair. They hope the marriage will fix itself because the affair is ended. Others reveal the affair, and STILL do not do the work required to fix the marriage.

In my marriage, I sadly admit that we had multiple affairs before we finally decided to do the hard work.

The first affair was not originally revealed. It was only after the second one that the first was confessed. Finding out about it, which was actually not as serious as the second (H wanted to leave me and marry the second) was actually harder to handle. It hurt more to know that I had been deceived for years and had no idea what was going on in my marriage behind my back.

I think the most important point in all of this is though is that you cannot fix what you do not realize is wrong. There are dangers to telling, much grief and pain. And my husband has said he sometimes thinks he would rather NOT have known.

But, if you do not tell, you are not likely to do the work to establish the repair of the marriage and the increased intimacy.

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, you have to admit that your scenario is rather contrived. I mean, of all the thousands of conversations that Nevermind and her H have, how often will something like this come up? Ever?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This exact situation may not come up, but I bet you something similar will.

After I had an affair, it never failed that something would happen or there would be a remark concerning an affair. It seemed to be everywhere I turned. I would be so uncomfortable. The guilt would fill me all over again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

I cannot imagine that Nevermind will be able to be truthful to her H unless she reveals the A. The subject of adultery is everywhere .... news, TV, film, music, gossip.

Are you saying Nevermind should lie or tell a half truth if the subject does come up? (It will).

During my H's A ... I spoke to him about the blatent A going on between two of our married neighbors at the time. I said, "If you ever have a one night stand, wear a condom and never tell me. If you fall in love with someone else, and begin an affair, please tell me so I can make up my mind what to do," His response... "I would never do that.".... Riff, he was having an A when he said this ... later, I remembered this remark and could really appreciate the delicacy of his lie .... "I would never do that" ... did not mean never have an affair ... it meant never TELL about the affair. And ... with this ... the distance between who he was ... and who I thought he was ... widened.

Now, we can talk about any subject ... and I get a real answer. (NOT always the answer I'l like, but, oh well) I know the naked him. If I never knew about his affair, I would not know the naked him, because he would have to be *on guard* for slipping with the truth. I trust that he is not suffering with guilt in silence (why would I desire him to do that? Ilove him)

Do you love your wife enough to NOT want her to suffer her guilt in silence???

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the most important point in all of this is though is that you cannot fix what you do not realize is wrong.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, but what is actually wrong is unmet ENs, right?

And I think you can make the case that we could have worked on that without anyone having an A, let alone revealing one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Do you love your wife enough to NOT want her to suffer her guilt in silence???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I was shopping for an engagement ring many years ago, one salesman said to me, "Don't you love her enough to buy this <ring that is way over priced and out of your price range>?" I walked out of the store.

You don't work in a jewelry store by chance, do you ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think the real question is, if I could wave a wand and have it any way I wished, what would I want?

I dunno, can I try BOTH and get back to you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

For me, I do wish that I never found out about A #1. Now, never is a very long time. And, the realist in me says that probably in the wake of A #2, A #1 would have come up. And to Susan's point, that would have been like being punched first, and then kicked while being down.

But, if there were some way, I personally would prefer to have been spared that.

Or maybe it just seems like the grass is greener... I dunno.

I dunno either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sometimes the grass tastes like sh*t ... even if it appears green ... fertilizer is required for green grass, ya know.

Now I'm just being silly

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "If you've learned your lesson, are doing the work, does it do your BS any good to know about your mistakes?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wouldn't that be like a doctor confirming that you had leukemia, but it's in remission, and decided not to worry you with it, but let you live what HE thought was happiness?

I dunno.....Maybe I'm off base here?

HCII

Riff,

Don't mean to be harsh, BUT... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You stuck your head in the sand with A#1 and look where you are. Not knowing is a form of the WS sticking the BS's head in the sand so one doesn't know where they are or where they are going.

However, in the years I have posted here one thing has struck me. That one thing is how often the guilt of the WS ends up poisoning the marriage and recovery attempts. Neverthought is going to feel guilt like she never has and her H isn't going to know what is wrong. And the more she says "Nothing" the more he will withdraw. He will know something is and he will know she is hiding it from him.

Finally, one person cannot save a marriage and what you are suggesting is that Neverthought can save this marriage on her own. It rarely happens that way. It takes two and for those two do this it takes communications, honesty, and knowledge.

She will always be guarding her words. She will be careful not to get carried away in the bedroom,lest she call out the wrong man's name, hence the sex life will diminish. There will be many places, people, and things she will want to avoid. She is about to make HER life a lie, and by definition her H's life a lie.

You MAY think that ignorance is bliss, but this world is filled with too many cases where ignorance harms you greatly and marriage is clearly one of them. Her H has a right to know if he wants to be married to an adulterer, it really is that simple. IF he does, then he has the right, the need, and the obligation to find out what his contribution to the failing of his marriage was. But, first he needs to know it is failing.

Even in your case, I think you two would have been better off addressing whatever issues your W had. I presume that now she has honored your request to cease contact with the OM. You see she didn't even appreciate how much that hurt you. I also suspect that is why you have been "waiting" for something better than her apology. With the OM still in contact with her, her apology seemed pretty hollow.

Do you see where I am going? It comes down to honesty on your part and her part or even a simple apology isn't enough, is it?

Must go, glad Pepper didn't heat you up too bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She is good isn't she?

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, but what is actually wrong is unmet ENs, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, I guess so, but the thing is, I had no idea my husband had an unmet need.

I always heard that the grass that is always greener is usually astroturf. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Susan

ps...it frustrates me the way that neverthought posts, we reply, and she never comes back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />