Hi Honey!

You know, reading about your WH causes me to wonder whether he is bipolar????? I am no psychologist, but alcohol and bipolar disorder are very often a dual disorder (as I am learning!)

Just something for you to think about - DO NOT tell WH this he will probably go ballistic on you!

BB

Thanks BB- and everyone.. at work and scattered so I apologize for not mentioning everyone.

Just wanted to add.. thanks for reminding me of MIRACLES IN PROGRESS online recovery alanon, aa. and etc. It is awesome, have been on this weekend and friday nite meeting - hopefully tonight if I can. I am sewing costumes for halloween, so don't know.. stressed on finishing in time. My mom is helping me, so I will be at her house tonight for a while! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am starting to think I am bipolar going through all of this.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BTW- for those of you interested in the ongoing saga.. WS calls finally and says his back started to give out .. or something.. he does have back problems sometimes.. but I don't know IF I BELIEVE HIM.. sounds like an I want to please you kind of lie,, .. dont want any trouble kinda lie...

So, he sd he felt REALLY BAD and really wanted to go.. and called me and did not leave a message.. cell phone out to my finances .. so he had to call home, and I had already left.. for church.. btw.. did not call until today to let me know what happened.

I am suspecting ow number 3, am I paranoid?

Or a drunken headache, who knows? I dont know anymore.

Thanks so much, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Honey,
I hope you said to him in a non-LBing way...

"that I and the kids were sad you weren't able to make it hopefully next time.....we would love to attend church with you...

also so you know if you can't make it..just call and leave a message..I would really appreciate...and it saves me from worrying you slipped in the tub and hit your head...(wishful thinking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )"

Perhaps since this weekend didn't work out you could join US this sunday...

I hope you know you are welcome and needed to help on Halloween...

Good Bye....

Honey It is what it is...OW, hangover, biggutus ignorus....don't spend one second stewing over it.....

detach...invite to family group things....set limits in a non-LB way...ex. would appreciate a call when you can't make it....

ARK

Thanks Ark, YOu are awesome. I non lbed about it.. just told him I was worried about a car wreck or something.. and that we missed him.. so I did do good.. Need to talk again to him about halloween and invite him over.. or something.. chances are..''he will again want to be on neutral or his turf- and prob. wanting to take a 4 yr old to a teenage approp.. or preteen at least haunted woods...

See , ws, was raised by his father, and never learned age approp. stuff for kids...

He wanted our newborn to get in the walker.. hehe, and filaw gave 1 yr old a football, fil gave 5 yr old a game that lets you build electrical stuff .. with switches , screws and etc.. - and my 10&1/2 yr yr old used it last week.. it sat in the cloest all those yrs.

But, as long as we are not seeing horror flicks at 4, or Jack+ss like he wanted to take the kids to on sat., I am ok, but the haunted woods could be an lb.. about our baby.. when I tell hi m, it doesnt work.

Whatever I do I lb, but not as bad when I am very very careful.

Today I gave a job suggestion, legal temp agency- as we have both done this in the past and pay is better than nada.. and he growled at me... there are no jobs.. why am I suggesting this to him? His pride wants to make 50 or so an hour like he did at his last job... but now is a diff. story...

Anyway, thanks for reminding me about halloween.. I did ask that last wkend and he sd no, he didnt want to come over to pick a pump . or carve one- but that he would do it at his house. does he know when HAlloween is??? who knows?

I'm really trying! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> thanks.

HONEY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>but submit to someone who wants to live on drugs on alcohol, who doesn't pay bills or work to own a home, who messes up both of your credit, and criticizes you half the time.--- this is the problem...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey, I know you want to save your marriage, but look what you have said here and then explain why. This isn't something new, obviously. How long has your H been drinking?

Also, you've been asked if your marriage resulted from an A while you and your H were married to others. I think that's a valid question and may give you more insight as to what you are dealing with.

You say he "learned" the behavior from his father. Maybe it's a pattern and maybe he will never change. I think that unless you get into counseling, and soon, you are selling your children short.

I'm not trying to upset you or to be harsh but is this behavior what you want your sons to "learn"?

Honey,

Just wanted you to know that I am thinkin' about you. Keep sewing the costumes and catch up with me when you get some time! (Maybe Nov.1??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

HUGS!!!
PQ

Honey,

I just read Redhat's thread about enabling. I wasn't sure if you had seen it but has some great stuff for all of us! Here you go! Blessings CSue

MEANING WELL: THE ORIGINS OF ENABLING
We often begin enabling in an attempt to be kind and helpful. For example, we may wake someone so they are not late to work. By doing so, we help them avoid the consequences of oversleeping because they were using or drinking late into the night before. We loan addicts money, often over and over again, and we are surprised when they use it to buy more drugs or alcohol.

Enablers may have their own system of denial that is fed by the lies and deceptions addicts use to cover up their using.

THE EFFECTS OF ENABLING
As enabling behaviors become routine, we end up feeling frustrated, ineffectual, and angry. Often, we continue to enable because we don't want to appear mean or unreasonable. Enabling behaviors directly and indirectly support the vicious cycle of never-ending problems and pain of addiction. When we stop enabling, when we stop helping and covering up for the addict, we allow the addict to experience the consequences of their out-of-control behavior. We no longer wake them up, loan them money, or bail them out of jail. We stop shielding them from the consequences of their behaviors.

ENABLING IS SELF-DEFEATING
When we begin enabling, we often believe we are being helpful. When we find that our efforts are ineffective and the problems continue and become more pronounced, we feel frustrated, resentful, and angry. As the disease and our enabling progresses , our initial discomfort becomes intensified with feelings that can include anger, rage, hostility, sadness, and distrust. Sometimes we become totally numb rather than experience the pain, or we become overly active to avoid feeling. Our focus becomes more and more centered on supporting and protecting the chemically dependent individual and less centered less on our own needs. We often feel hopeless, defeated, and depressed. This cycle of problems feeding problems continues until we seek help.

ADDRESSING ENABLING
To regain a sense of themselves and to break the cycle in which they become trapped, enablers must learn to focus on their personal rights and needs. They must allow the addicted individual to feel the consequences of their own behavior. As enablers stop protecting the addict, they begins to feel the consequences of their addiction, and may become very angry. At first, this can be frightening, but as we learn that we are not responsible for the addict's problems, we feel strength and pride in ourselves. We may also feel sad to see the addict having to live with the consequences of their addiction.

EXAMPLES OF ENABLING
Examples of enabling behaviors include:

Making excuses for the addict/alcoholic (calling the alcoholic's boss to say they are sick with the flu, when they are really hung over, or referring to your teenager's drug use as 'just a phase')
Paying their bills
Bailing them out of jail
Making rationalizations for their irresponsible behaviors
Ignoring the problems caused by the addict's use ( financial, employment, legal)
Cleaning up their messes
Accepting their excuses or believing their lies
Not discussing the problem of their chemical use
Not getting help for yourself
As addicts/alcoholics are rescued from the consequences of their using and drinking, they learn to rely on their enablers to continue their addiction.

Enabling behaviors can be changed, and recovery is possible even if the chemically dependent person does not seek help.

HOW TO CHANGE ENABLING BEHAVIOR
When we begin to identify and change our behaviors, they don't just disappear all at once. Recovery and changing takes time and practice, practice, practice. With this in mind, we can look at some examples of changing enabling behaviors.

Stop making excuses to others for situations or problems that are caused by the drinking and using of the alcoholic or addict. Do not phone the employer to excuse him/her from work. Do not make up stories to others about why the addict/alcoholic was unable to keep obligations such as showing up for the family reunion or missing your 10-year-old daughter's dance recital.
Refuse to lie.
If the chemically dependent person makes a mess, such as being physically ill or tearing up the living room, do not clean it up. Allow them to see the damage and result of their actions.
Do not bail them out of jail.
Do not pay bills you are not responsible for in areas that do not affect your safety or basic well being. Do not pay for the new TV he/she purchased. Do pay your phone and electric bill.
Do not continue useless arguments. Go to a movie, take a walk, read a good book, or go to a support group meeting.
Do not make threats you are not 100% willing to back up with appropriate actions. Example: I'm leaving and you'll never see me or the kids again!
If safe and appropriate, discuss your concern with the person in a non-emotional way.
Find a support system. ........

GOOD STUFF!

Honey - I really agree with Tiny Dancer - I mean I think you are selling your children short - and everything you say is an excuse for his behavior - he is the one drinking - he is the not living there - I mean I find it hard to believe that a grown man would take a 4 yr. old to a haunted house - that is not to bright - or jack*ss for that matter it is rated R - and that is not his parents fault - he should know age appropriate things - stop sticking up for him... I mean you are trying and trying - and I don't see anything changing - I really think you need to detach and let him find his own way - and hopefully it will be back to you and your boys - but stop blaming yourself for the house yu live in, for the job you have, for the words that come out of your mouth, for the economy - the fact is if he wanted to work - he would work - if he wanted to be home he would be home.... I really think you need to shock him - make yourself and those boys happy !!!! Honey is this really worth the pain - I know you love him and I know you don't want to be divorced but I am not saying that - just stop talking to him - let him see if being without is really what he wants...

I'll keep this short.. b/c it's late and I may have missed someone's point..

Csue, NOt sure how I am enabling- except to consider ironing his shirts as a plan a kindness thing and only a few.

Maw64, I am not trying to make excuses - I think it is ridiculous that he wants my 4 yr old to go to a teenage haunted woods, actually - and Jack+ss... I think it is quite a bit off.. I listed the things about his dad.. as an example of what I deal with and maybe WHY WS thinks abnormal is normal.. NO EXCUSE... I guess I am reasoning, venting , all at the same time- NOT EXCUSING.

PLEASE keep in mind he has a good side.

I posted all this barf stuff.. b/c I got some posts here ... that sd I should follow his lead and that my poor ws is always being told what to do by me.. and so maybe I shouldnt tell him where we should live or what church to go to... so I posted some more of my grief... maybe so maybe, ya'll could understand where I am really coming from.

Yes, where I am really coming from is dealing with an ALCOHLIC, and they have ALANON for that...

I am sorry to burden you poor great MB people with my alcoholic woes-

It is a cunning and baffling disease-

this same person has been capable of making great money, 100k a yr with no degree (Ok- 4 yrs of college +, but no certificate or diploma).. he is highly intelligent and capable.. chooses to waste it due to what I conisder a mix of disease and origin of heredity + a choice to drink and live this way... the nature of an alcholic is to BLAME whoever is in his way .. right now.. I am the star of blame.. but I am stepping back, and he is not doing so well..

I admit, I enabled when he lived here. I don't now, at least I hope not.

Perhaps trying to save my marriage is enabling.

I will reread the posts.

I am just not sure everyone - saw what I was trying to say or how I was trying to say it. It was venting, and I do vent the BAD DIRT here.

This is the same guy who used to carry me around on his shoulders everywhere telling me how much he loved me.. through beautiful neighborhoods saying we would live there one day.. ok this was early 20's.. and it hasnt happened yet... OK, he hates hearing me say- where is my big house?

WHat else... he has wrote me numerous love songs, played and recored them.. poety, drawings and paintings.

Loads and boxes of love letters I have.

I would get expensive dinners, jewelry, chocolates, etc.. until I complained he was spending too much on me... he would've spent his last penny on me.. before the me that wanted to FIX him came alone.. the me that was happy with expensive dinners and a small apartment.. before I wanted a nice home, a good stable neighborhood and less drinking every night.

He has held me countless nights. (haven't they all..?)

WHile undergoing my recent back injury- he became cook, and mr. mom while I was in bed in pain for more than a yr. and still injured and slowly recovering for another.

He has told me to choose to work or not, it is all up to me...

COUNTLESS. .. wonderful things...

Now when it comes to ... IS THIS MAN- responsible? the answer is no... not consistently, can he be, and has he been? YES.

DO people love him? YES. Until they see his wrath of irresponsibleness.. it is all pointing back to alcoholism - it is not ... that I am making excuses I just know the good WS.. the good times, and there are still more of those than the bad.

He is charming and loads of fun.. he has been my best friend, my prince charming.. NOW I believe he is ILL. I am hoping that is it.. I pray he will get sober.

ENough, enough-

I have sewing to do.
Thanks for posting and I am not trying to argue or anything- I appreciate all your good advice and will use it and reread it...

It is just like a jeckel hyde thing.. truly.. ONe part of the day he is one way, the other another... A yr he is one way, the next another... see saw... alcohol....

anyway, I gotta go, but thanks for putting up with this crazed posting. I wanted to post the bad, so that yall would see I am not the super witch-b ut now the consensus is dump.

Jenn Chalmers advised plan A... perhaps she doesn't know or didn't get the full story... honestly I feel as many deep seated issues as he has if I am not kind and loving/ yes, I hear you, without enabling... the marriage is doomed, not that it is good standing now.. but there is definitely the chance of saving it, and I choose to do that with LOVE.

Hugs and thanks, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Honey,

I guess I wasn't very clear in my reply--no, of course you can't submit to the whims of someone involved in self-destructive behavior or who wants to take a 4-yr old to an R-rated movie. Guess that'll teach me to read up a little more on the histories before I shoot my mouth off again!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

As far as my comment about controlling: that was in reponse to the poster who said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think he is trying to regain some sense of being IN CONTROL of some of what his family does. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really just wanted to respond to the question you posed in this thread. But you're right--God has to have a hand in your H's life in order to break his addictions--you will be in my prayers.

Who knows what path your H will have to tread before he submits to God...but that is the ultimate goal. Submission is mutual...in reverence to Christ. The assumption Paul makes in Ephesians is that he is talking to believers who are submitted to Christ first. Your H's behavior obviously does not indicate he is at that point.

My heartfelt prayers to you and yours during this very difficult struggle.

Blessings to you in Him for your perserverance...

Thank you lostinsimi, I need an alanon meeting.. for my superior attitude... that I certainly do not try to have.. makes my ws seething mad... as an old friend of mine sd about my h.. he wants control, he wants to tell me what to do... but he doesn't do anything to be considered the leader of the family- he does not take on his responsibilities...he forgot those somewhere.. unless I want to live in poverty or constant turmoil... and I won't.

I appeciate your support and wasn't mad or thinking you meant anything really, I just wanted to explain... I know lots of people don't have alcoholism to deal with on this site.. and believe me it makes it more crazy.. because one minute they are wonderful, smart , kind, great people- the next it gets worse.

TD, and whoever else it is trying to ask me again and again if my marriage was born of infidelity...

I MET MY WS when I was 16 yrs old. We lieve in diff. states... we fell in love, it seemed to be impossible... he married when he got in the coast gaurd... NO INFIDELITY... I finished college, he contacted me to let me know he was d'd.

He had been my first love and I had really fallen for him. I felt it was meant to be... At the time I had a bf, and the relationship was on the rocks... for some crazy reason I married.... immediately I knew it was a mistake... my current h was still states away and I still loved him... I definitely married for the wrong reasons... graduating college, wanted a husband for security and it seemed the thing to do. My first h was verbally and physically abusive, quite badly... the marriage was on it's way out. Old bf, current ws called to see how I was, and tried to help me out of the R.. when he found out i was being abused... I still had the feelings for him and I guess you could call it ea of physically abused woman. My first h left, thank the Lord and Praise God, I did not believe and still don't believ ein Divorce. The first h had blamed me for every problem in his life.. he had been laid off etc. THis was only a 10 mnth marriage...

So now that you have your answer are you going to diagnose what is wrong??

I come here for support, not bashing or anything else. Some of us may have insight, and others more... but we all come from our OWN VIEWPOINTS AND see things through our own eyes... My emotional friendship with my current ws during the end of a marriage may have been wrong... but I had been in love since age 16 and made a mistake in marrying the college guy friend who was not for me at all.. in fact I can honestly say it was not love in the way a marriage needs...

My h and I have a completely diff. love type relationship.. and et . etc/ I did not want to answer this, as it makes me angry that people here are trying to say that my marriage was doomed to begin with or something. YOu don't know me personally or the whole situation... You only konow some words I typed here.

After all this explaining, please know I really thank those of you that support me in my battle against alcoholism, infidelity, etc.

I am just irritated that some suggestions are harder than I would like- and BR isn't one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am in so much hurt.. right now, it is hard to come here and be criticized.. NOW maybe I am too sensitive-but I am trying hard to pull ME together and be STRONG. I would appreciate hel pand support in that manner.. not gee, your marriage was doomed from the start???

Anyway, I have done way more explaining and got way off subject of this original thread. SOme of you may gasp and tellme to dump him or the marriage is doomed, but I have come here for support in ssaving my family.

Deep down I think my h is still in there.. though he may need drastic spiritual changes, AA, and a program of recovery to be on the same side of the street as I.... most of all I think the man is running away from strife, and wants peace. I needed to be kinder even if he was irresponsible and drinking too much- yelling at or demanding that your H change and stop all that behavior won't make it happen.. But Love can help it happen. I know that, Love can change things.

For those of you that tell me to plan b, OK, I hear you. I am not giving up, and I am gorwing distance.

FOr NOW I am in a plan to draw h closer through no mention of the ow, and his sins etc. I am trying hard to help our relationship have a chance to grow to be better without reminders of what he has doen wrong.. this is one thing I don't think he is handling... my reminders , my hurts... he is confused enough right now...

I am not making excuses, I just love him, in sickness and in health, and I belive he is sick.

Of course I want a better life and won't submit to nutty things.. that Is why I haven't moved in with him.. I have had the invitation.. part of our struggle right now is over lifestyle... to drink and drug / or be sober? That is a big issues... Ws has gotten SO BROKE, I think it may help, he sounds serious about taking a job less than his total potential and in this Htown market that is good. You can't walk out the door and get what you are worth right now.

Anyway, gotta go to work.. thanks for the support and all- I appreciate it. I really do. I apologize for all this explaining, and I appreciate the NOT ENABLING STUFF>. will print it out.

THanks to everyone for following this... starting to feel like I can be more and more loving in the face of all this, though not enabling, just loving and kind. (with boundaries)

THanks for being here, HONEY
THanks and hugs, HONEY

Honey, let me explain that I thought you had said before that your H was married at the time you and he began your renewed relationship. My reason, as you will see if you re-read my post, is that I thought it may be a pattern with him.

You have been on this board for about a year now and the entire time I have kept up with your postings. Things you perceive as bashing are concern for you and for what your sons are learning from your H's behavior.

I understand your H has an alcohol problem but I believe it goes deeper than that. You have said he is irresponsible etc. Some people are just that way - alcohol or not.

And just to address that you believe that I said your marriage is doomed because you were emotionally involved while married to another - as disgusting as it is, my married sister was involved in an EA with a man who was also married. They both divorced their spouses and married each other and they just celebrated their 16th anniversary. So no, not all marriages born of affairs are doomed but I certainly think that they are wrought with suspicion and lack of trust. Just ask my sister, who is given the third degree when she's 5 minutes longer than her H thinks she should have been gone while getting her hair cut.

Honey,

and whoever else it is trying to ask me again and again if my marriage was born of infidelity...

ahemmm...that would be me....but I only asked ONCE and a couple of other people then asked you why you had not answered that question.

I was under the impression that you wanted some insight as to how you might be where you are today in your marriage. I was trying to offer up a suggestion. It was that simple. Your original quote was that you were happy that the marriage ended (and no mention of abuse there) cause it allowed you to be with the WS (who had been pursuing you while you were married and who contributed to the demise of that marriage). Sounds logical to me that it might be a factor. While you skirted around answering a couple other people asked you.

I did not want to answer this, as it makes me angry that people here are trying to say that my marriage was doomed to begin with or something. YOu don't know me personally or the whole situation... You only konow some words I typed here.
BTW...the only thing people have to go on (in trying to help) is just that, the words that you type here. What else have they got to go on?

I have come to the conclusion that you do not want help....you want support. Support meaning the posters to just sit back and read and agree with whatever it is you are going to do.

I come here for support, not bashing or anything else. Some of us may have insight, and others more... but we all come from our OWN VIEWPOINTS AND see things through our own eyes... My emotional friendship with my current ws during the end of a marriage may have been wrong... but I had been in love since age 16 and made a mistake in marrying the college guy friend who was not for me at all.. in fact I can honestly say it was not love in the way a marriage needs...

You are making excuses for the road you took when you engaged in an EMOTIONAL friendship (you used the word friendship again, skirting around the word relationship.)

Which brings me to 3 other points.

1. Who decided that your WS is an alcoholic? Is that something that they have to acknowledge themselves? We can only name it...they have to claim it....right? You could be excusing his deplorable behavior by labeling him an alcoholic so that there is a reason for him to be doing what he is doing. You have made numerous statements that he is a "functioning" alcoholic. It is possible that he is just a user. A charming sweet talking con man that can get what he wants when he needs to. Be it from you (cleaning his house, ironing his shirts, going to his church) or from someone else (he sure has been in the rental properties hasn't he?). For someone who cannot keep a roof over his head (and yours at times) he sure seems to do ok moving from place to place. Must have some way of conning his way into them. Anyone with that track record as far as evictions and skipping out on rent is concerned, sure is not getting it on references.

2. IF and I say IF....he is an alcoholic, he has ALWAYS been in control. He has been in charge of where you live and what you do. The entire household revolves around the drunk. The drunk is always accomodated when people can and cannot visit. Where you can and cannot go (not everyone accepts a drunk) is dictated by his behavior. If his drinking makes it impossible to keep a job and contribute to household expenses, he is in control of all those variables. Moving from pillar to post due to not being able to pay the rent is because he IS in control.

3. You have been softly encouraged to see where you are enabling him and also your parents being enabling. (You disagreed strongly with the parent part). Well, when that comment was made to you it was accurate. Your parents are enabling the situation as long as they do not insist that you do whatever is legally necessary to make sure that you and those boys are financially supported. Everytime they hand you money, they are supporting not only you but your WS. They are allowing him to continue in his actions just as you are by not taking legal action. Your only excuse for not taking legal action is that you do not want to LB and that you want to save your marriage. To go to court and make the man accountable is NOT an LB.

but I am trying hard to pull ME together and be STRONG

This is the part that people are encouraging you in. But it is the farthest thing from the truth. It should be "but I am trying hard to pull HIM together and be strong". Sometimes a drunk must lose EVERYTHING in order to get their life straight. EVERYTHING is EVERYTHING. Family, home, self respect. You want to save him the hurt of finding out for himself. You cannot save him from himself. He is going to wake up one morning...hungover, in a cold wet alley, with no one to call, and a bright light will shine on him. That is what it is going to take....you cannot make it happen. Once that happens he can start clean and sober. He will WANT to be clean and sober because there is no where else to go but clean and sober. He has to WANT it for it to work and right now he does not want it.

So there you have it....my very own .02. While I can imagine that I have royally p*ssed you off, I cannot help but hope that something triggers you to act.

The type of support that you want and are looking for is another type of enabling. I will NOT enable you by offering the type of support that you want. The support that you want is not what I am capable of giving because it goes against the very nature of me. I offer support to people who want to change THEMSELVES for the better. You want to stay in an unhealthy relationship and have no intention of taking control of your life.

Ok....I realize that this is harsh...and I have only been following your postings on here for the past 6 months, but I feel like I have some valid points to make. I have walked the walk...I am not merely talking the talk.

I will not be upsetting you anymore with my straightforward and honest posts of how I see things. It is obvious they are not what you want to hear.

Let the Flaming Begin!!!!!

committed

Honey - I believe committed and loving it basically hit the nail on the head - well said - stop read her post and really read it - that is what I believe most people are trying to tell you - !!! I totally agree - And I don't think that you were harsh I am thinking very valid points were made....

opps

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

This is all I have time to respond to at this time, and not sure if I have the time or the inclination to reread the post, though there is some value.. it is obvious what your viewpoint is here.. and that it is FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE.. not knowing everything.

"Well, when that comment was made to you it was accurate. Your parents are enabling the situation as long as they do not insist that you do whatever is legally necessary to make sure that you and those boys are financially supported. "

MY parents are to insist that I do what is legally nec. to make sure that 'me' and my boys are financially supported?

I beg to differ.

I support my family just fine. My parents do not hand out money. Where did you get that idea?
They are kind and helpful and have loaned me a little money, but I didn't need it that badly. I make good money, perhaps more than you. I don't get what you are talking about? I in fact make more than many men. What are you talking about? And why should it be up to family to insist I file legal preceedings?

That one statement is enough for me and the bashing.. you are doing of me.. for getting out of a very abusive short marriage and marrying my first true love...? at sweet 16... and still loving him. I jsut think we must be from diff sides of the fence.

AS I stated, I do come here for support.. and friendship.. Kind and discerning advice is welcome. I don't know anyone who likes to be told what to do???? Especially by people who don't know the whole scoop..

Honey - you know what you confuse me - OK you make more money than most men but you aren't at your salary potential??? You have said that you owe your parents so much money that you would never ask them for financial help so you could file child support papers - You are the one that say you cannot afford counseling - then you say in some one elses post that you recently had to let the cleaning lady go??? You are the one that says every post practically that you have no money due to no money from your husband -??? I don't get it - I am confused ???? I really didn't and still don't think anyone is bashing you - but you want advice to help you in a bad situation and almost everyone here has told you to detach and get a hold of your life without your husband - and that you can only control yourself - and your children - I genuinely believe that everyone is concerned with what your children are seeing and what they are taking in about the situation ... Your husband has an alchol problem as you have stated but he doesn't think he has one - everyone here who has dealt with an alcholic has said that they need to reach rock bottom and they have to admit their problem and they have to help themselves or want to be helped - and the simple fact is that you can love your husband and you can want your marriage but you can only control you - and you have to look out for your childrens best interest...

Honey,

I guess we need to carry on this discussion.

I support my family just fine. My parents do not hand out money. Where did you get that idea? ..

This is where I got those ideas..

my dad has a spreadsheet of money I owe him, much of which he GIVES me and doesnt even put on the "bill".

He has big big issue with our house... my parents ouwn it

wont be moving until I buy this house, as I promised my parents I would....

My parents helped me move into this house that they bought with full intention of me buying it in a yr or so... and it has not happened likely due to me enableing ws with some os his ideas,

These are all your posts....these are the things that I am talking about. You post about your financial problems (gas was shut off...remember? or do I need to post that one too?) yet you do absolutely NOTHING to better the situation. You do NOTHING as going to court to seek some type of legal measure to make sure that your children are supported. YOU have the power to change that...if something happens after you file that does not allow for your support (such as his not being employed)... I will be the first one to vent with you. You need a shock of reality...YOU do...he doesn't care whether he is on Pluto or Neptune.

Lost his first wife because of his drinking... Did this not cause you to get a clue?

They are kind and helpful and have loaned me a little money, but I didn't need it that badly. I make good money, perhaps more than you. I don't get what you are talking about?

My ccard payments end up late,a nd I bounce cks. I am going crazy over this.

It is not about me Honey, this is about YOU. It doesn't need to be a comparison. But you evidently are NOT doing ok financially and you can do something about it.

What are you talking about? And why should it be up to family to insist I file legal preceedings?
They have becomed involved in all this and they have rights too. How long do you expect to take advantage of their kindness and generosity? And all because you don't want to LB with him. That is why I think that they are entitled to insist that you seek legal measures to support yourself and your kids.

I am not bashing you. If I could get you angry enough to get up in my face and tell me that you will show me just what a strong woman you are then it would all be worth it.
Do not get angry with me for stating my opinion and trying to enlighten you on what others are trying to tell you. Get angry at your situation and change it!

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

Ever feel like you are banging your head against a brick wall?

It seems that if you do not say what Honey wants to hear, then you just do NOT understand!

You have all offered Honey good advice. It was nice that you took the time to type it all out. It is a shame and sad that she just cannot see what you are telling her.

Counting the Cost

I'm guessing that what everyone would like to know Honey, is, have you determined at what point this marriage is costing too much in terms of the damage it's doing to everyone involved, especially to your boys?

You say you want to save your marriage, but is that at any and all costs? Where does damage control come in and take over in order to ensure that your children are no longer exposed to a role model (the most powerful, influencial male role model they will ever have)that is modeling the epitome of destructive behavior and dysfunctional coping. What is your role as their mother in protecting them from that?

We can all understand that you want to save your marriage. That's why we all come here in the beginning. But Honey, AT WHAT COST? You've been here at MBers a long time now and nothing has changed for the better. H just doesn't have an OW right at the moment, but that was never the primary problem to begin with. The circumstances and details of H's life just change, but it's no better. Do you not see that it's not about you to begin with so it doesn't really matter what you do or don't do? It has to START with your H. That's why people keep telling you to detatch and move away from him. That's why Dr. Harley says if there is any kind of abuse/addiction ( physical, emotional,sexual, substance, gambling) in a relationship, that has to be addressed and fixed FIRST before the marriage can be rebuilt. It's the addict/abuser that has to make the first step. Nothing you do or don't do is going to get him one step closer to the point of realizing he needs help. You should realize this after this long and be acting on that knowledge. In staying in close proximity to the situation you are stunting your own growth and exposing your children to what is far from the example of what a real,honorable man is. Your boys are sponges..they are SOAKING all of this into their beings. Is this what you want them soaking up?

So we are asking and wondering. At what cost is this marriage worth saving and do you really have any power to save it or is that strictly up to your H now?