OK - my first post after a long time of lurking ;-)

firstly - thanks to all for the advice, knowledge and support I've gained from my lurking.

I hope perhaps some of you might be able to provide some thoughts on my situation. Apologies for the fact that this is a long post - guess I should have started before there was so much to say!

My wife and I have been married for 3 years, together for 6 next month. I fell in love with her vitality, her independence and her spirit of going after goals - flip side is she can (like all of us I guess) be insecure. We also love all of the same things, never argue unless we were drunk and I really thought it was going to be forever...

This time last year she went off on an extended sailing trip (she is self employed so can take time out to fulfil her goals). I had (didn't realise this until we earlier this year when we were already in trouble) never been able to fully support her in her goals - I would give her my acceptance for going away but never my support. This had (again realised in retrospect) led her into continually seeking new goals for me to approve and support. We then met up at Christmas time for what should have been the holiday of a lifetime with another couple (we had spoken every day on the phone) in the Caribbean but which became a large showdown and into which I stumbled not realising how much danger my marriage was in.

We have always been able to talk through issues without arguing and on the whole during the 3 week holiday managed this. During this time she went through the whole "I love you but am not (sure I'm) in love with you" etc etc. She was staying on for another week (I was going to be away with work) and a friend of hers she had met whilst sailing met up with her and the other couple for the week. Even before I left I was extremely scared / worried about how emotionally close they had become...

Wife gets home for a week before going away for an extended period working 7 days a week abroad - I guess in total she was home for about 14 days in the first 3 months of the year. Usually I would have flown out to meet her but she felt she needed space to think about what she wanted. I found out that the extra week in the middle she had told me she had to work now was in fact a lie to give her a week abroad thinking without the pressures of work. I was completely messed up during this period, imagining she was with the OM.She denied this (interestingly even after it had turned from an EA to a PA until just a few weeks ago when she admitted she had seen him for a day but nothing had happened).

When she finally got home we sat down and talked almost solid for a week. She wanted time out to work on herself, didn't want to work on the M, said she loved OM (still EA) but was not and didn't think she or he wanted more. We decided to seperate as the last thing we wanted was to end up arguing and hating each other. She then announced that she was going to go on holiday at the end of April with OM and his friends. Knowing my wife probably better than anyone else alive I knew that she is not worth backing into a corner so I told her I was very unhappy with this and that it was hurting me but that if that was what she was going to do she would do it whatever and that whatever happened I would still love her.

Whilst she was away my father died (had been ill for a few months) so the funeral was a couple of days after her return. By this stage I already knew it had progressed to a PA having found condoms in her bag - which we don't use. We ended up spending about three hours sitting outside in the sun after my dad's funeral talking very calmly though emotionally (no LB from me as I was too worn out) about our R and her A - her apoligising for hurting me, all the usual stuff, that she didn't know if it would work out etc.

OM lives on another continent, is 11 yrs her junior but (unfortunately for me) is a very kind, caring and loving person - I know this first hand as i had spent a bit of time with him on holiday.

So I had decided to move out as I had already spent a lot of time in our house alone but it took until August for the right place to come up. I plan A'd like mad and on the whole we had a great time - tried not to talk too much about her A even though she was still talking to OM on the phone every day whilst I was out and via email.

They met up for another week whilst he was on business and had a very tough time - my WW unsure if she should be trying to work on our M or not etc etc.

Even after I moved out (just 10 mins away) we have spent a lot of time together and probably have a far more equal R in all other terms (financially etc) than we ever had in the M. I always tried to be a provider (and still do sometimes) when in fact my W's earning potential is far greater than mine at present. Given the extra constraints she has been working hard on getting more business and as I benefit financially I was helping her out - the first time we have really worked together. It went really well and I felt that perhaps we were at least establishing something between us. I have often stayed over and she has stayed at my new place.

Then OM turns up in the country for a few weeks - well that was a bit of a heart stab for me - the thought of him in what had been our house etc. But I knew it would be eually difficult for WW and OM - photos of me, us, cards etc of our life are all over the house... and so it proved they couldn't cope with being in the house and so took off for 8 days holiday. He then went back from whence he came.

Interestingly only some friends know that we are seperated - and those that do say that seeing us together you would never know that we were. She has told only a very few friends and her sister about OM. I don't want to as for her this would be a big LB and besides she can't expect her new R to last forever if she keeps him locked in a cupboard so I prefer to let her 'not' tell anyone if that is what she wants - she has never asked me not to tell anyone BTW but says it is up to me.

So finally on to questions.

I don't know whether I should continue plan Aing or whether I have become a doormat - I know that I often let the details of her feelings for OM get to me and I end up making her resent/despise me for this.

Her new R could go on for a long time before fizzling out as they don't see each other very often, only spend time together on holiday and via email, phone etc. WW knows this and sometimes says she should go and live with OM to find out once and for all if he is what she wants or not. I don't know how much longer I can put up with the situation as it is. I know that I will always love her but I am not prepared to try again unless she is.

One large factor in our relationship deteriorating is that for 3 years we have been trying unsuccesfully to have children. WW is desperate for children - she even admitted recently that despite not wanting them unless she was in a comitted R she had been thinking wildly about just trying to get pregnant by OM and not telling him. I feel hugely frustrated that all the time we are wasting when we could be trying more. Her response to this (it is a bit of an LB so I don't mention it unless she does) is that we obviously can't so what's the point. She has interestingly not wanted SR since the EA started though we often share a bed and had a good open SR before.

So what to do. We are going on holiday together over Christmas and she says she really wants to go (as do I) as she loves spending time with me and can't imagine a life without me as part of it. But she is confused as she wants me and OM to be happy and he's not happy when she spends time with me and I'm not happy when she spends time with him.

Should I plan on going to plan B if after Xmas nothing has changed? I am hugely worried that this would push her into his arms - she has mainly jumped from 1 R to another and this is the first time in many years that she has acually lived on her own.

I love my wife completely and have so much more I want to achieve with her - and so it seems does she in reverse but... until / unless the PA dies I know that we can't (and she wouldn't) even consider working on our R. So how do I manage to stay sane, not LB but not become an enabler to her A?

Phew - enough and thanks if you have even made it this far. I'm sure I;ve left out loads but there we go!

What will be will be...

Glad you came out of hiding, Bowd and welcome. I'm not in a position to give anyone advice but I just wanted to bump this up so it doesn't slip off the page and get lost.

Thanks Alizarin

Plan B now, IMHO. It is the only way to make her appreciate what she has. That said, you have to be prepared for her to leave, because she may do that. But really, you do not have a marriage, now, anyway. Continuing Plan A will just continue to hurt you and let her believe cake-eating is OK. You don't want to live this way forever, right? Then don't let it become a habit for her. Just make sure you phrase the plan B letter as protecting yourself from pain, not trying to get her to change. You will, of course, be in for a lot of pain in plan B, but at least it is a pain of your choosing.

If you have lurked for a long time, you know that many of us recommend phone counseling with the Harleys. That is what I recommend for you right now, I don't think you can afford to make a mistake that might not be recoverable. I believe you have much to gain from it, and little to loose.

If you have not done so yet, you should try to determind what her needs are, and you should have a plan to meet them. OM can only meet some of them, you are closer and can meet more. If you can meet the ones that OM meets, she may see that she can be happy with you and quit with OM.

I am sorry for your pain, and I hope that it will work out for you in the end. I hope you find the strength to keep working on it for a while yet.

SS

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't want to live this way forever, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't, no Johnh39 and the more I think about it I think i will continue Plan A for a few more months before going to Plan B *but* work on trying a decent Plan A, focusing on me, rather than our R and her A. Trouble is as well as being in love with her she is my best and closest friend - common sentiments I know amongst BS, even those who are Plan Bing - but true none the less.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> many of us recommend phone counseling with the Harleys </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Still Seeking - I have noticed it and whilst my wife doesn't want to go to counselling - she's not good at discussing her feelings with people she doesn't know, I think that it's something I should do for me - and I'm in the lucky position that the money isn't an issue so it has to be worth trying. Is it best to call or email to schedule an apt?

With the OM being distant I know I can and do still meet a lot of her ENs (and he is aware of this too) but with email and country to country calls cheaper than national rate calls they can speak and converse as much as they like.

I know now that a marriage is an ongoing choice between two people. It should never be taken for granted and that it can always change. And that some people do fall in love with another even when married and that it *can* work out...

in some ways this knowledge makes me stronger - I know that my wife *can* chose to try again (which is all I want right now) with me.... but equally she may chose to continue trying with OM and not me which is scary... why? Because I don't want to lose her friendship as well as everything else.

I know that most of what I am writing has been said a million times before here but it helps putting it all down - and getting a response (which just writing doesn't!) so thanks to all.

I don't have a lot of advise except to say I agree to keep with the Plan A. In my case I don't think I've done a good job of it in the first place, I also don't feel that I'm ready to give up and go to Plan B.
I'm not new to the site but new to posting and just added my post to this site.
I heard the same thing, I love you, but I'm not in love with you. And I know from reading this site that it is "fog" talk. I also pray that my husband realizes he is making a choice and that he decides to choose me. I am hoping that the fog is just too deep now for him to realize it, and that he hasn't already given up on us and is just in a waiting stage until circumstances allow him and OW to be together.

From what I read on this site it seems like they can come out of the fog....and a good Plan A is big part of it....I know that is probably true in my case....I know my husband doesn't like to feel like he is being told what to do or controlled. And me asking for a decision between her or me, or asking him to end contact is me controlling his life he thinks.

Patience has got to be a big part of this....and this website which is why I'm here every day....just started posting for the first time today and now I can't stop!

You have seen this probably many times, but here goes.
We are really sorry you have to come here, but this is probably the right place to get help.

Calling seems to work better, at least that seems to be the general consensus here.

One of the things that counseling will do is help you tailor your plan A and keep it on track. Too many get off track with continued contact and start to LB. You will also be asked questions to help determine how it is going, and change it if it needs to be changed.

I also recommend reading - if you want to see how a plan A can turn a spouse around, read this whole thread. ( Don't complain, I read it, and it is long, but oh man, what you can learn.)
After a Long plan A - P's story.

As you read it, look for what to do right, and what not to do. You will see both.

As I read many peoples stories, I have learned much that has helped me improve my own marriage. I can tell you that this MB stuff works.

SS

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know my husband doesn't like to feel like he is being told what to do or controlled. And me asking for a decision between her or me, or asking him to end contact is me controlling his life he thinks.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But we both know that if they want to try again they have to end it. Hang in there HoldingMyBreath.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and it is long </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the link still seeking - you're not wrong about the length! Is this the longest thread on the site?? It'll have to wait til the weekend I think as I'm away from today.

And yes I do know that MB technicques can work - the other reason is that they fit so completely with what I feel is the right thing - I have never understood / wanted the whole revenge thing (except of course in moments of anger that pass switfly) - after all I am completely in love with my wife. Why would I want to consciously hurt her. MB takes that a stage further by saying (IMHO and amngst many other things) "try not to subconciously hurt your S or R or you'll end up hurting yourself" - its like so simple yet so many (myself included) need it pointing out regularly.

BRIEF UPDATE
Had a great evening with wife and a couple of great friends of ours who are staying with her. At the end of the night she gave me the best longest kiss she has in months <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I know it doesn't mean much in the long scale of things but it meant so much to me and more importantly in my resolve to keep trying... without getting drawn in by the fog!

Thanks all

I think it is the longest thread on the site. I started reading it last spring, so I only had to read about half if it to be up to date, then kept up. You can do it in stages, I don't recommend the whole thing at once.

If you mannage to read it all then you will know why I recommended it. The main players are
P
Cerri
HoFS
and Hurt Tired.
Pay close attention to them and how they all apply or sometimes fail to apply what MB teaches.

I am glad for the kiss, it helps to get positive signs. Remember to write out your plan A and measure your progress by how well you do what you plan to do, not by how well your W responds from day to day. She may regress sometimes, but you don't have to.

Let us know how the counceling goes. We really want things to work for you.

SS

Well, an update after a strange - but good - few days and a counselling session with SH this afternoon.

First off - the counselling was well worth it - I'd urge anyone to invest in it.

But first - it will make more sense of SH's answers - the last week or so.

Was abroad on work Friday and got sick over the weekend. My wife looked after me - and she doesn't ever do sympathy! But I could see she was still on a high from her recent trip with the OM.

Then Monday I had an email asking if I would like to go to a Tango dancing class with her on Tuesday evening. I was suprised as this type of thing is not really my wife - doesn't like looking silly when learning! But our friends who are staying with her want to brush up on their tango skills ready for their wedding and asked us along.

So we went - and we had a ball. Really great fun. We then got some food and came back to my place - I had asked her if she wanted to go to home or to mine - she said it was my choice, did I want her to stay. I was unsure if it would end up hurting too much but decided to go for it... and I;m very glad I did - we ended up talking all night - till 9 the next morning!

We were able to talk openly and honestly without any LBs. She said she still loves me but is now completely confused as the OM also says he wants her to be happy - even if that is getting back together with me - and that she doesn't want to hurt either of us. I reiterated that we both already hurt - he when she spends time with me and vice versa. That I felt we could make a go etc etc. She agreed that we both love the same things (far more in common than her and OM) and that ideally she wanted the best bits of both of us (true cake and eat it!)
But I think (I certainly told her in enough ways) that that will continue to hurt all three of us.
The hardest thing is that at the end of it all - although I think she knows she *should* make a decision I'm not sure she can or will - she is just too confused and my Plan A'ing doesn't neccesarily help/force her to make one.

This was what my call to SH centred around - after he had cut through the initial research. Would going to Plan B help? In the end we decided that for the moment it is unlikely to - there are too many other things we are doing together that will hopefully wear away at the ENs that the OM provides to risk it just yet - my decision BTW.

But SH suggested getting a Plan B worked out so that when/if I get too emotionally drained or feel that she is not going to make a decision I can go to Plan B to protect myself - and possibly allow her to realise what she is then missing.

So that is what I am going to do. We don't have kids (as I said above) but we are trying to increase a newly started business - and I want to try at this as I think in our (particular) situation it would help overcome one of the facts that led us to the A in the first place - we didn't spend enough time together. Even though we both love the same things I was working hard on a business start-up and my wife was/is self employed. Her business allows her to take time off when she wants - it's project based - mine doesn't. If (and we have done one project together very succesfully) we could develop it just a bit I could give up my day work (which I have got very tired of anyway) and we would then have the same time to go away together rather than just my wife going when sailing (mainly) opportunities arise. My wife is keen and so am I so it would be a big LB right now to cut it out completely.

So for now its Plan A as best I can.

I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to read many other threads or post on any over the last week - it's been pretty busy - but I hope my update will help some MBs. I think in my state it's keep hoping but hope with my eye's wide open - and planning out how I will go to Plan B if it comes to that will help me keep my eyes wide open.

Thanks all

bowd

Hi B,
It sounds like you have a good start.

As far as reading other threads, it's not something you have to do, just thought you may learn from it. Always put first things first.

I suspect OM won't be kind for ever. Usually if the WW sits on the fence, the OM will start to LB to get them off. IF you are nice, and he is not, you will probably be reconciled in the end. Steve is the expert, and I recommend following his plan. It seems to always help to tell her your feelings right along. ( not every day, or even weekly, but often.) Keep acting happy, making her happy, but every so often, tell her that you can't go on like this for ever, and that it hurts you that she spends time ( or phone time or whatever) with him.

You have a very good attitude, and I hope it pays off for you. In fact, it always does, because even if your M was to fail, you would be a better and improved person, and that is never a waste of time.

God bless you to succeed.

SS