Great news Jen.

I know exactly what your husband means. My husband and I just had a rough weekend dealing with similar issues. He can't understand why I am not as loving to him as I once was. Not that I am mean my first reaction is to just be on my own. There are times when he just doesnt understand that what he did changed me as a person forever that I cant just let down my gaurd and be comfortable. I guess I feel like I can never love him like I once did because the effects of the destruction of that love were too great. Until about a year ago I had always thought of my husband first, I did little nice things for him, I supported him in every way even when it hurt me, took time away from us, etc. I am just wiped out now. I cant do it anymore so I regress, I withdraw from everything...even being who I once was. Sometimes I feel a strong desire to be mean to him, I am not but I get in a terrible, withdrawn mood. So I can understand your husband saying mean things...not that he is right-bad behavior is never justified...but I can understand the urge.

It is wonderful that he came to you. He loves you deeply. One thing that gives me hope about my marriage is that my husband is dedicated to loving me now. Even when I could just walk into traffic he is still there being good to me. You can do that for your husband too, believe me it helps reconnect with happiness and peace.

continuing prayers

ayslyne

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

Jen.

What I found interesting about your last post is what is missing from it. That your H didn't bring forth the issue of divorce. But it really doesn't come as a big surprise with his comments to you about "never be as attracted to another woman again" "his mom is rooting for me big time, and won't stop going on about all of my positive qualities" "he was shocked I didn't call him sooner, or drop by the house sooner" and the big one "he wants for me to let him call me, so that he still has a sense of power". Does this sound like a man who doesn't love his wife and only wants her as a sex partner? I think not. Jen, you and your H share a history with lots of good memories (otherwise you wouldn't love the big lug) and this is not something that can be easily wiped away, especially if he still loves you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"A funny thing, I'm not dancing around or anything today, like I may have predicted. I am a bit relieved, and perhaps somewhat optimistic, but I know the road ahead is very long, so I'm not putting on my tap-dancing shoes quite yet."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, you have learned well grasshopper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . The last thing you need is to feel cocky and lower your guard and let your old destructive behavior patterns take over once more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I have 2 wait for him 2 call"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see 2Long's short hand influence rubbing off on you with this little comment. Hmm definetely not good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TMCM:

"Indeed, you have learned well grasshopper . The last thing you need is to feel cocky and lower your guard and let your old destructive behavior patterns take over once more. "

Such knowledge is worth more than any for2ne, Cookie!!!

"quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have 2 wait for him 2 call"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see 2Long's short hand influence rubbing off on you with this little comment. Hmm definetely not good"

ol' 2long means no harm 2 anybody, doncha know? Or doncha? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen - I was so glad to read your post! Contact is progress!!!!!

In terms of trust, let me see if I can help you understand the "forever" part of this.

If you were mugged in a parking lot while loading groceries, seriously hurt, etc., you would spend most or all of the rest of your life being a little uneasy about loading groceries. Even if you went to a different store. Even if you shopped only during the day. Even if.. even if...

Now, for awhile, you wouldn't be able to/want to shop at all. Over time, you'd be able to do it, but be very nervous. Eventually, you'd be less and less nervous. But, I think it would be reasonable if you were always on guard. Forever. Or for a very long time.

Shrinks call this "trauma". It's a situation where you got by your whole life figuring "this could never happen to me." Once it's happened to you, the veil of safety is lifted. Forever. Or for a very long time. Your "world view" is altered.

This is exactly what the BS experiences. Now, the good news is your H realizes this. Stay with me now, this really IS good news!

This is good news because, what he is saying is that he realizes, yeah, sure he could divorce you and go off and marry someone else. But that seed of doubt would be there with her too. This is a wise and mature realization.

THIS MEANS, that he's not looking to dump you and move on in order to heal (cuz he "gets it" that doing so won't work).

I've not been in your shoes. I'm sure it feels terrible to be the cause of this. But what I'm reading between the lines is that your H is willing to work w/ you to repair this thing.

Get to work, girl!

TMCM, just a curious question. Why would 2Long's short hand rubbing off on Jen be a bad thing?

Actually, I just realized you were kidding. Sorry I guess I was coming to ole 2Long's defense. LOL.

Take Care

Sorry Jen to use your thread for this.

HW (formerly TORO)

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: happinesswithin ]</small>

Jen,

About your initial question. The way your BS sounds is so familiar to me.

My FWH is courrently plan A'ing me. I am trying to give him a second chance, but I am having difficulties.

My FWH only had a one ONS, but he lied compulsively about it and about a LOT of things regarding his past. He has been an OM and a WS and I didn't even know.

He abused me pretty badly for the first two years of our marriage, make me loose any kind of self-steem, respect for myself, my work and my abilities. It got so horrible I isolated myself from everything and everybody. All because he wouldn't tel me the truth, all because he wanted to keep his self image no matter what the consecuences were.

I became incredibly depressed and absorbed. Not that he noticed. I would avoid going outside at all costs, I stopped talking to my friends, my family. I hid in our apartment and never set a foot outside if it wasn't imperative. I was scared of opening the door for the mail man!

My trust in people has been destroyed. My phylosophy to handle life has been obliterated. I function because I cannot stand being alone in an empty apartment one more day.

I have developed a phobia to be outside. I can't meet new people, I have anxiety attacks on time to time. The only place I can roam around is my school, and on that only my department and were I work.

My husband destroyed me bit by bit untill the outgoing, fun, witty gal I used to be dissappeared.
He feels terrible for this, and I feel terrible that he feels sad. But somedays I get angry at him, angry at what he did to me, because I really didn't ever do anything wrong to him. He said I was the perfect girlfriend, friend, lover, wife, etc etc. I never neglected one single EN. He just chose to do what he did to me, because he couldn't cope with me being so nice and loving <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Give him lots of love Jen, make him see he can trust people again. Tell him you are sorry, let him see this, explain him why you wouldnt contact him, your fears, how much you love him, your hopes of a brighter future with him.

It is your turn to rip what you sew. You need to pick that man up and help him realize that there is still hope.

Be strong Jen.

Alostwife,

Thank-you so much for your post, especially since your perspective is coming from the same direction as my H's.

I am so sorry about how your H has pretty much destroyed the "outgoing, fun, witty gal" you used to be.

He and I talked about the contact thing today. He admitted that he wouldn't have responded well to me contacting him during the past three months, so I was right not to do so.

It is so hard to talk positively about my hopes for a future together, when all he can do is repeat to me that us spending time together changes nothing, and doesn't mean anything, and that we are no closer to being back together than we were last week. I am so afraid to tell him what I think is possible and what I dream of for fear he belittles me or my ideas (and I don't want to cry in front of him). He can be so negative.

He was too controlling when we were together, and he still wants (and gets to have) all of the control now. But, I told him he is in control. I have never waivered, I still want to work things out, I still want to be with him.

I am happy to have time with him, but I still came home and cried after I saw him today. I don't feel very much hope. I just feel even lonelier for him after I've been with him, and he's gone back and forth between seeming happy to be with me, and feeling awkard to be with me.

If/when I get to see him again (I've agreed to let him contact me, not for me to contact him), I guess I will have to work on the positive talk about how I really think we can make it. I haven't done any talking like that yet. But it will be hard to do until I am convinced of it I suppose, and I guess I'm not yet. I'm still testing the waters myself.

Okay, enough rambling. Let me know what you think if you wish.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jen, yes, your hubby is traumatized. It really is a horrible experience and I know how humiliating and horrifying it is to know that your confusion and selfishness caused that pain. I know first hand how horrible that feels. But know this...life is hard and painful and full of traumatic experiences...and people get through it and heal and learn to open up and trust again. Maybe not as blindly as before...but then that's maturity and wisdom for you. Blind trust can be equal to stupidity.

As the Harleys say, we're ALL wired for an A to happen...some people have gathered enough knowledge or moral strength or fear to stay away from that type of a situation...and others of us screw up.

You're doing what you can from your end of things to right the wrong. You can't fix him. In our situation I have those issues with the former other man. He walked in with his family in a local restaurant yesterday and they sat right behind us. He won't speak to us...not even a civil nod of the head...even though my H used to be a close friend. I hate that I did that...that I caused him so much pain that he can't or won't get past it. But I can't fix that...he's got to make that choice for himself.

My hubby wasn't sure he'd ever be able to open up to anyone else again...yet he managed to hang in there long enough to trust in me again. Make the most of your date....don't take any of the jabs personally, he needs to get the anger out of his system for a while...and give him lots of reassurance. Guys keep saying they like verbal flattery. Tell him he looks great, you really like being with him, he's got a great smile etc... Obviously not over the top butt kissy like...but just make note of anything you can. If he feels loved and appreciated....eventually he'll feel good enough to want to regain that feeling of security and trust too.

Jen,

Take everything one baby step at a time. You need to court your H. You see, right now the Jen he thought he knew is no more. He needs to meet you all over again.

Be patient, don't worry, think of him as a guy you want to date regularly. I know it is difficult, my FWH is still trying his darnest to figure it out.

He needs to feel wanted. In a start he'll discard any idea you have to make him feel good. Don't worry it is a defense mechanism. You see, why would I let my FWH let me feel good if he is going to turn right around and slap me in the face?

We are scared to death to love you FWS back because we are so broken inside. We fear that if you betray us again that'll be the end for us.

The key is to not give up. No matter how angry he seems or how he pushes you away. If he pushes, move away gently, wait for a little while, then offer some peace. Let him contact you, when he does be upbeat, do not mention future plans just yet, let him be comfortable with you again on a basic level first.

When my FWH presses the issue of how he wants to be together with me forever and how badly he wants to have babies with me etc etc, I go completely into panic mode.

I am scared of him pulling one of his old tricks, lying, or just being mean. He has to be consistent, open, honest and show me that indeed he wants me he wants our M and he wants to be with me.

Our situation is different. We still live together and I am willing to try to give our M a chance. But there are days I just want to pack and get the heck out of here.

Sometimes I have described this as sleeping with the enemy. I go to bed with the man that savagely destroyed me without hesitating once through years. I am expected to feel secure with him, trust him and let my guard down.

It isn't easy, but gradually, gently, it can be done.

I have explained my FWH that he threw away something that will take years and years to repair. He insists he wants to try. But it is something difficult to swallow, since it was him the one doing all the ruining, and now apparently I'll have to stick with him for the bad times regardless of me having to do anything with the entire destruction progress.

It is just sad how we can destroy something that takes so log to re-build in just a couple of seconds.

But don't give up Jen, there is still hope!

Hi Jen!

For what it is worth progress measured is progress!

In my situation my wife had a ONS with someone that we both knew to get back at me over a disagreement we were having. While I have forgiven my wife for it and she shows tremendous remorse. I am still figthing like hell to get past the anger I feel towards the other person and all of the other variables as well that came into play that led up to this.

The hard part for me is getting rid of the anger that smolders in me without hurting the wife with it in the process.

The anger of it all is a normal part of the process and your husband is right in that the trust has been forever altered. He has a strong need to vent now and from what you are saying, that is exactly what he is doing.

I too still feel a strong need to vent as well, I do most of it through various message boards and an occasional talk with the wife.

In my situation I wish the wife would understand how much I hate hearing the fact that it was just a ONS and that I need to get over it.

Whether it was a ONS or a full blown long term affair, the pain and the betrayal of it is still the same nonetheless! I think IMHO that I have handled it rather well considering that I had the choice to stay in the marriage and fight with every fiber of my being or bring it an end. Needless to say I chose to fight to save it and I am fighting mad to do it, I just wish I knew a way to get through this and to minimize the pain for my wife in the process. It is painful and it is ugly to deal with, but it has got to be dealt with in the open, not by sweeping it under the rug.

Jen,

I have had much the same reaction your H is having. A full 21 months after discovering my h’s affairs, our recovery is going well. But I am not the person I was before. My previous H cheated on me as a way of life. When I married STL I thought he was a different sort of man. He is very different. But I found that he too is easily capable of inflicting great hurts on me.

I isolated myself for months after discovery. We were newlyweds. I was so embarrassed. I know that if they ever find out they will hate him. My family has never support my marring him. It would be even worse. There is no way I can ever tell my friends and family about his affairs. So this place is the only support I really have in my part of the recovery. I do have him to lean on but it’s not the same. For more then a year after d-day I was non functional at work and really in all parts of my life. Today I remain isolated from most people. I am also very much more fragile emotionally then I ever have been in my life. I don’t know when and if I will ever have myself back.

Though we are in recovery, between my ex-h’s infidelity and STL’s infidelity I have learned the same thing your husband has. No one can be trusted 100%. I certainly do not trust my husband 100%. He works at proving his trustworthiness. But I still often feel that I don’t really know what is going on with him. What I have learned is that no matter how much a person says they care and love another, they will always do what feels good to them. If my H is having a bad day, he may very well fall back into the behavior. I will never trust anyone explicitly again. Never. I was a fool to do it in the first place.

I have heard it said that recovery from an affair takes 2 – 10 years. I don’t know if I will ever totally recover. I don’t know if I can ever be really carefree in my love again. Not with STL or with anyone else. In this world, people take what they want with little regard for others. Even for those they purport to care about. It’s a hard lesson to learn, but at the age of 53 I’ve finally stopped being Pollyanna. I’ve finally give up on the human race as being ultimately good. Instead I now know that humans are ultimately selfish and takers.

I wonder how much it really bothers you that you hurt your husband and how much it bothers you to realize that you were unfaithful. And that in being unfaithful it proves even to you the same thing that your husband and I and many others have learned… that no one can be fully trusted, not even you. So you have learned that you are human. I think that is what bothers my H the most about his affairs.

He was the BS in his previous marriage. But he says that being the WS has been harder as it learned something about himself that he would have never believed. He learned that he was not who he thought he was. The only thing is that he was able to get over his part in the infidelity a lot faster as the WS. I do believe that infidelity is a lot easier on the WS then the BS.

What I don’t understand is why, when I have so little faith in humanity, why I have not been able to do the same. Sometimes I think that if I would just have an affair, then I ‘d learn that there really is not anything all the important about being faithful and then I would not feel so badly about being cheated on.

Hi
I understand how your H feels I isolated and still do.I'm a BS

I've been celibate for 31 mos. I have deep trust issue. This robbed me of my self esteem unlike you my H minimizes my pain.

He tells me it not that bad when someone cheats on you and you are separated well tell my heart that.

I don't trust him I really can't share what I'm feeling with him, he minimizes everything he tries to rationalize everything this angers me.

H tells me he not committed to reconcil,e you would think I was the one who had the A the way I'm treated.H also tells me he thinks I will do the same to him.

I just wish I really knew what to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he feels loved and appreciated....eventually he'll feel good enough to want to regain that feeling of security and trust too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Hope4future)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He has to be consistent, open, honest and show me that indeed he wants me he wants our M and he wants to be with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Alostwife)

H4F & Alostwife: Thanks for the words of encouragement / advice. I am working so hard to make my H feel appreciated and to make it clear to him that I want to be 100% honest and open with him. Your comments really encourage me to continue with that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The anger of it all is a normal part of the process and your husband is right in that the trust has been forever altered. He has a strong need to vent now and from what you are saying, that is exactly what he is doing.....In my situation I wish the wife would understand how much I hate hearing the fact that it was just a ONS and that I need to get over it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(NealG722) I have stopped minimzing the affair, and making excuses, and laying blame elsewhere. I even had the opportunity to tell my H at least twice this week that I didn't have the affair because of anything he did, or anything other people say he did (eg. having his 2 close female friends), but that the only reason I had the affair is because I wasn't smart enough to say no, and walk away, and talk to my H about what was going on. I know rationalizing and minimizing the affair will just hurt my H more. That's certainly something I can thank MB posters for helping me to learn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I have learned is that no matter how much a person says they care and love another, they will always do what feels good to them. If my H is having a bad day, he may very well fall back into the behavior. I will never trust anyone explicitly again. Never. I was a fool to do it in the first place....I wonder how much it really bothers you that you hurt your husband and how much it bothers you to realize that you were unfaithful. And that in being unfaithful it proves even to you the same thing that your husband and I and many others have learned… that no one can be fully trusted, not even you.....Sometimes I think that if I would just have an affair, then I ‘d learn that there really is not anything all the important about being faithful and then I would not feel so badly about being cheated on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(zorweb)

((((zorweb)))) You sound like you are still in so much pain. I pray that your H makes you feel loved and appreciated, even if your trust in him is gone forever. My H said something about learning to trust me again, and I told him we would never trust each other again 100%, that it's just not possible. We now know better. In hindsight, I wish that I had also followed that statement up with the comment that that is why we need to be radically, 100% honest and open with each other from now on. I do agree that no one can be fully trusted. Negative as it sounds, it's how we must live to protect ourselves from being hurt. However, and I'm almost certain you know this in your heart too, having a revenge A is no way to make yourself feel less badly about being cheated on. It would make you feel even less valuable as a human being. I wish I could say more to encourage you zorweb. You deserve to be loved!

An interesting development tonight. I was over at a girlfriend's and didn't get in until late (fell asleep there while watching a movie). My H called again tonight just before midnight. (This is the 2nd time he has ever called.) So he's thinking of me again, and perhaps missing me. That makes me feel good. To an extent I am glad that I wasn't around....which is sort of like playing games I guess, but if he can't have me, maybe it'll make him want me more. I hope he calls tomorrow!!

Time to go back to sleep,

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />