Hello Everyone,

Most of you know my story, I think. I am divorced for nearly 1.5 years now, but I continued to see Ryan (OC). The last 5+ mos I haven’t seen him. Things got quite emotionally charged when Ex-H wanted to take Ryan for the week-ends (Ry’s mom – OW #1 has physical custody) and he resisted because he wanted to come stay with me instead. So I backed out of Ry’s life for a bit thinking my presence had caused a riff for him and his father. BTW: my ex lives with OW and her children (OC #2) and they are engaged.

So, I sent Ry his Bday card and gift certificates on Nov 2nd to his grandmother’s and then called his grandmother last night knowing it was a school holiday and hoping Ry was there, which he was. He hadn’t been given the Bday card yet and while on the phone he opened it. I asked him how school was and if he liked this year’s teacher, he told me he’s in a new school this year and that he now lives with his DAD. My heart sank …….

You see, now that he lives with his dad and more importantly OW, I will probably never see Ryan again. Ry’s mom and family really have been wonderful to me and they like me, they’ve let me have Ry anytime we could coordinate a week-end, but now I think they have shifted their loyalties over to ex and OW, and I am truly an outsider.

I want what is best for Ryan. I pray for stability in his life so he can grow up to be a happy well adjusted adult. After the divorce I was encouraged by my therapist to continue participating in his life. But now, that will be impossible.

I guess why I’m posting this is because I hurt pretty bad. I mean, if I could have picked a child to give birth to, and raise and love, I would have hoped for a boy just like Ryan. He's amazing.

So my question is this, do I let him go? Do I end all contact with him? And if so, any advice on how to do so. Do I write him a letter? What do I say?

Any advice is very appreciated.

Love,
Jo

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Hi Jo...

Jeez, you know, when it rains it pours sort of...you have been sounding so good and putting your ex and OW behind you and now this....I am very sorry this situation has come up for you...you deserve better...

I am not sure I have a lot of advice, but a couple of things occur to me.

First-- never is an awful long time. And I think we all (those of us who have found ourselves here) know that it is dangerous and probably foolhardy to talk in absolutes of any kind.

I forgot from your previous posts how old Ryan is, but it seems that you have been a part of his life and I would guess a pretty valuable part so I don't think any person would just turn their back on you....

Yeah, it may be more difficult with his new living arrangements but you also can't predict the future...

Have you talked at all to your ex about this? Maybe there is some kind of arrangement you can make with him...or failing, that, perhaps with his mom...it sounds like you are at least somewhat friendly with her...

I wish I had better answers and hopefully someone a lot smarter than me will come along with a good suggestion for a course of action.

One thing I would not advise is to end your contact with him. Keep that door open for the future...

I know it must be difficult but please try not to let this get the best of you...

You are strong and you will hanlde this...

E

Jo - Elad said what I was about to.

Yes, remind us of Ry's age.

I know you have been significant in his life and he will not forget this. My son has reminded me several times that despite his new step dad, I will never be replaced in his life.

Depending on Ry's age, perhaps you can assure him that you're available whenever he wants to talk to you, assuming his legal parents agree. This is the dicey part. You know you cannot insert yourself into his life. But my bet is that sooner than you realize, he will be making decisions like this on his own and will establish his own friendships.

I validate your concerns for him - I feel them everyday my son is in the alien environment outside of my protection and influence. You are not alone.

Dave

Hi ELad and Dave,

Thank you for responding, I really appreciate your help.

No, I haven't talked to EX about this. The last conversation we had was where I insisted he stop contacting me. I had requested this several times. At that time, he had sent an inappropriate BDay card to me, and in his hand writing telling me what his hopes were for me, like finding myself a family.

Ryan is 10 years old as of Nov 2nd. I've been in his life since he was nearly 6.

When I think of it, I had hurt Ryan by backing out of his life 5+ months ago. I did explain it to him then, but I don't think that helped with his hurt. I don't want to hurt him again, we became so close during those times he spent the week-ends with me. That was when my Ex and OW were finally together after EX left me for OW (their honey moon period) and like Dave said in another thread, I'm sure they were like two dogs in heat. Ryan was ignored for a very long time by both of them. So I was able to see him almost every week-end.

I guess talking to his mom would be the best thing. I don't want her to feel on the spot, or bad. I just want her to be honest with me about how she feels about me seeing Ry anymore. I will understand and respect her feelings.

I'm not very good with writing letters, esp when I'm so emotionally involved. So if it comes to that with Ry, do you think you two could help me out?

Jo

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Hi Jo...

echoing Elad and WAT... I wouldn't pull out of his life... do talk w/ his mom... it sounds as if perhaps his grandma would still be a good intermediary? I think phone calls and letters at her house would be a good thing if you feel you couldn't arrange time w/ him... kids LOVE phone calls and mail...

Cali

Now Cali beat me to it!

I agree with her about communicating with Ry's Mom and G-Mom.

By all means. allow us to help with a letter if you want. But I bet you have the right words already floating around in your heart.

Dave

Jo--

Of course I would help with a letter if it came to that but I am still with Cali and Dave on this one...don't pull away from him.

Even if you can't spend a lot of time with him you can still have a reltionship thru phone calls, letters and e-mail.

I mean we-all have relationships here electronically and I know you consider some of the MBers here to be a part of your life...it wouldn't be much different with Ryan. In fact, it
would be better.

Don't give up so easily...for you or for him...

E

Dear Jo,

Oh my, sorry to hear about Ry being with his dad. What a sad thing to say but I am sure you know what I mean.

As for you still being in Ryan's life, well you have been the stablizing piece and are able to get along with his mom and grandparents. So utilize that relationship and ask. As always, be prepared to be told no and if so, then yes you probably should step out of his life if that is where they take you. Really the choice is up to them, Ryan and Ryan's dad. Sad to say but true. You know Jo, we can't always make everything right but we can always try.

You have my love and support in your decision. I hope Ryan knows how special he is to have such a loving person in his life.

Hugz,
L.

I just wanted to ditto what everyone else is saying in this thread.

And Jo, I'm so sorry that you have this pain to deal with. I didn't realize you haven't spent time with Ryan for over 5 months now. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> That had to have been devastating on you.

((((((((( Resilient ))))))))))

10 yrs old, huh? He's definitely old enough to choose his own friends. What a GREAT idea to go through the grandma! And before too long, you should be able to have some more 'in person' time again.

Karen

Hey Jo.

(grrrr. i am starting this again...lost the last reply).

first of all, i'm so sorry about all of this. funny isn't it, one of the people that love Ryan the most (you) hase no legal rights to him. gotta love the irony. NOT!

ok, so why is Ryan living with Steve? does Ryan's mom want him living there or did she lose him in a custody dispute? Does his mom have visitation? During visitation with his mom, does mom really want to be with him the whole time (weekends) or could you kind of sneak some time in there with him? Grandma sounds like your ally.
I understand going through Steve and OW would be very very difficult for you. I also know that would open the door for Steve to cause you more grief, but Ryan needs you.

I'm being a fat lot of help huh? sheesh.

Bottom line...the boy loves and needs you. Looks like you've got to go through mom/grandma. Call them up, get the scoop. You know, Ryan living there may be a very temporary thing. My kids have even (when very very pi$$ed at me) have tried the living with dad thing. Some times it's easier to let them go try it so they can go see for themselves it isn't nirvana. My 20yo son is living with his dad and OW and hasn't talked to me for 3 mos...long story. 'nuff about me. sorry.

Jo - I remember how you talked about Ryan when you were here. I remember you buying him stuff in that little store in Scottsdale. You just shone when you mentioned his name. Kids know who they feel safe with. They know who loves them. Even if you don't get to see him for a while longer I'm positive you will always have a relationship with this child. They remember stuff. They remember feeling loved.

Ok, and what is wrong with this child's mom lettting him go live with (ack!) Lana??? Has she ever met her?

i know this has more questions than answers. such is life huh?

love, allison-jo

Hugs to you Jo! My heart breaks for you. I think the advice you got about talking to Ry's mom and grandmother is a great idea. It sounds as though you have had a good realtationship with them in the past, so hopefully that connection will help. Do you know what led to the switch in physcial custody?

Jo, my thoughts and prayers are with you. You certainly don't deserve to go through any more pain. I will pray that talking to Ry's mom or grandmother will be the road to your re-connection with him.

HUGS
BH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
Hi Jo...

echoing Elad and WAT... I wouldn't pull out of his life... do talk w/ his mom... it sounds as if perhaps his grandma would still be a good intermediary? I think phone calls and letters at her house would be a good thing if you feel you couldn't arrange time w/ him... kids LOVE phone calls and mail... Cali</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks bunch Cali .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In the past when Deb (Ry's mom) and I talked about Ex wanting full physical custody of Ryan, she was vehemently against it. My Ex told her he would continue to pay her the child support if she'd let Ryan live with he and OW. Deb (Ry's mom) said she didn't want Lana (OW) to raise Ryan.

This has been her stance for quite some time, so I guess in the last 5 months he convinced her to do it. I'm a bit surprised ... more than a bit, ALOT surprised.

I feel funny asking her or her mom (G-Mom) about it, but I guess I will anyway.

Lv,
Jo

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Topie25:
I just wanted to ditto what everyone else is saying in this thread.

And Jo, I'm so sorry that you have this pain to deal with. I didn't realize you haven't spent time with Ryan for over 5 months now. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> That had to have been devastating on you.

((((((((( Resilient ))))))))))

10 yrs old, huh? He's definitely old enough to choose his own friends. What a GREAT idea to go through the grandma! And before too long, you should be able to have some more 'in person' time again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, 5 months is a long time to not see him. Thanks Karen.

So how are you? I read that your H is back into porn on your sig line. I'm terribly sorry, Karen. When I think of Porn, I remember watching that Dr. Phil segment where the H was addicted and it was plain to see, but he just wasn't getting that it was ruining his marriage. He didn't SEE the pain it was causing his wife and tried to minimize it in his head by saying she was blowing it outta proportion, that it wasn't that big a deal. Dr. Phil certainly did straighten HIM out.

I mean, even if it's considered a perception of one spouse that the other is doing something that hurts them and the marriage, then it should be considered VALID. How disrespectful to not take notice and at least consider their point of view.

I know that you and Berni use to post to one another regarding this bad addiction. I wonder if she's still reading here and maybe she has any wise words for you, Hon.

Best,
Jo

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Allison wrote:
ok, so why is Ryan living with Steve? does Ryan's mom want him living there or did she lose him in a custody dispute? Does his mom have visitation?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't have any answers to these questions, YET. Over the phone last night, I overheard Deb (Ry's mom) tell Ryan to tell me she was going to call me. I think she wants to explian stuff. I feel like they, Deb and G-mom, were keeping it a secret from me, because they feel bad knowing what having Ryan live with his Dad & OW implies. Meaning, no more visitation for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Allison wrote:
Ok, and what is wrong with this child's mom lettting him go live with (ack!) Lana??? Has she ever met her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I explained to Cali, Steve has been trying to get Deb to give him physical custody, altho not legally, for some time now. He even said he'd continue to pay child support to her even if HE had physical custody. Deb has refused telling him she doesn't want LANA raising Ryan. And yes, Deb and Lana have met, back 10+ years ago they fought over Steve in the bars. Lana was trying to steal Steve from Deb, who was my astranged H at the time.

So I have heard that Lana had been like acting like a pefect little SAHM that cooks and cleans and all of the things a stepford wife and mummie would do to impress Steve and anyone else who is watching.

Where as before, Lana was the "Go out every nite to a bar, host Kareoke, get drunk bring a stranger home and boink them, sleep all day hang-over, collect welfare and let your children fend for themselves" type of mom.

Guess her changes in priorities has made the impression she was hoping for. Not to mention she is no longer sick, is that not a MIRACLE? Steve has such GREAT healing power. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Last night I told lora I HATED Lana, Allison. That is the first time I have ever admiited or really ever felt it. I'm just amazed at women like her. Coniving and manipulative. I really don't understand why men cannot see thru the lies and deceit. It's MIND BOGGLING.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Allison wrote:
Bottom line...the boy loves and needs you. Looks like you've got to go through mom/grandma. Call them up, get the scoop.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's my plan, Hon. But like Orchid has said, I am going to prepare myself for the worse. You know how things can work with a divorce and people, Allison. Loyalties can shift drastically, I've seen it first hand to where it changed my entire life.

Thank you for helping me, sweetie.

Love,
Jo

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Brokenhearted wrote:
Hugs to you Jo! My heart breaks for you. I think the advice you got about talking to Ry's mom and grandmother is a great idea. It sounds as though you have had a good realtationship with them in the past, so hopefully that connection will help. Do you know what led to the switch in physcial custody?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi BH,

How are you? How's your new digs? Are your Ex and the OW-neighbor still in their A?

Last I recall they were doing alot of drinking and fighting, now THAT'S REAL LOVE .... I mean, how ROMANTIC and special .... sorry. I'm in a mood. Guess you can tell.

To answer your bolded question, I have no idea why the physical custody changed. I hope to talk to Ry's mom this week-end and see if she can shed some light on the reasons.

Thank you for posting to me. I'm so proud of you too! You have done all the right things, and taken good care of yourself in a time when devistation could have took you over. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love,
Jo

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Hi Jo,
Hope you are doing better!! I read your other post and was so happy that you were able to talk to Deb!

My house is great, thanks so much for asking. Things have been rough emotionally, but I am trying to take one day at a time. Julie is a piece of work. I don't know if you read my thread about my H's aunt dying, but Julie decided to go to the wake. It was so awful! She tried to hug me! What nerve! Well, now she has decided to have a birthday party for my daughter!! It just never ends. She is going to invite my H's family and she even wants to invite me!!! Can you believe her!! She is insane. The past two weeks have been awful. I am depressed, crying all the time, well I am sure you know what I mean. All any of us can do is to take one day at a time and one trial at a time. God will help us through if we ask. Sometimes I have a hard time asking. I wish I could just give it over to Him, but I am having a hard time doing that. Sorry Jo, didn't mean to go on and on. There is so much more that is going on, but I won't go into it right now. Suffice to say, my marriage is over and they are getting married as soon as our divorces are final.

Hope you have a great weekend Jo.
BH

Time has a way of merging and blending families and individuals who otherwise would never in a million years see eye to eye or hold anything in common.

My nephew just went into the Marines. He's from brother's second marriage. There was a family gathering for all his cousins, their families, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. The two children from his first marriage were there, with their spouses, and Bro was there with his third wife. In both of his marriages, he was the BS. So for him to watch the OM raise his children because in his state, mothers, regardless of living with drug dealers, etc. tend to get full custody. (both ex-wives were at the time living with drug dealers immediately after the divorces).

Ironically, both XWs cleaned up their acts and married decent men. But when Bro ended up divorced from his second wife, the relationship between this wife and the children from the first wife was similar to what you describe between you and Ry.

The thing that has been most healing to these families, and especially to the children, is that all the steps and ex steps kept in touch, via birthday cards and gifts, Christmas gifts, etc. and of course coming to extended family gatherings involving the children. Reunions were the one exception where the ex's send their children but do not attend themselves. This way also allowed the step grandparents to maintain contact with children they had grown to know and love. The second XW's mother set up scholarship funds for the children from the first marriage, and did not stop contributing to those savings accounts, just because the parents messed up.

I don't know if this helps you get clear about your relationship to Ry or not. But for heaven's sake, stop jerking him around just because you don't happen to get along with his father and his current OW. Be his friend for him; otherwise he will tend to think there's something wrong with him, rather than follow the gyrations through the emotional spin cycle your X's infidelity imposes on him. It's hard enough that people come and go through "covenant" relationships in his life. But friends should be forever!

<small>[ November 16, 2002, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
I don't know if this helps you get clear about your relationship to Ry or not. But for heaven's sake, stop jerking him around just because you don't happen to get along with his father and his current OW. Be his friend for him; otherwise he will tend to think there's something wrong with him, rather than follow the gyrations through the emotional spin cycle your X's infidelity imposes on him. It's hard enough that people come and go through "covenant" relationships in his life. But friends should be forever!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you K&A ... some very valid points. And I have made my priority when it comes to Ryan to be his friend, to love him and let him know he is loved by many ... I constantly reinforce in him how amazing he is in so many ways. And it's not contrived, I MEAN IT. When I'm with him, my ex and his situation is rarely brought up, but when it is, I never say anything negative about it, I always reinforce that he is loved by all of us.

I can't be friends with my Ex, even if I wanted to. His OW is a nutcase and she runs the show, she is unstable and it's not jealousy talking here. If you read my story you will see where I had to resort to filing an anti-harassment order on her. It WAS WARRANTED, and I resisted doing it until our counselor insisted I do it. I took nearly 8 mos of her tirade and verbal abuse, unsolicited I might add.

By Steve Harley's advice I was told to not maintain any contact with my EX. He said I needed to protect myself from that situation stating it was lethal for me. If I offered an olive branch to try and become friendly with my EX, I can imagine myself setup for her verbal abuse all over again, or worse.

So, knowing this, can you suggest anything more I can do to help Ryan in being a happy child, and know that he always has a friend in me. A stable friend that will love him unconditionally. What else can I do. I am very open to advice for doing whatever is in my power to the benefit of Ryan.

And oh yeah, I too have setup a Trust Fund for Ryan and have been and will continue to contribute to it for college. Ryan is also my sole beneficiary. His mother and G-mother are aware of this and so is Ryan.

I have read several of your posts on the ENs board K&A, and respect any advice you have to offer me.

Best,
Jo

<small>[ November 16, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

I guess the first thing you need to do is work with Deb and be sure to have contact with him while he is visiting his mother, like you did this last time. Keep sending him cards, through her.

It's fine to have boundaries; in fact, I remember the psychopathic behavior of the OW that you described. All I can say is that it will get old eventually, even with another psychopath (your xH!). Ry will get to an age where he will seek you out as a friend and mentor. Keep the relationship open for that time.

My Bro's 1st XW was super-cruel when it came to visitation. Bro was supposed to have the children and she'd send them to her parents instead - once he drove up to pick them up, and his XFIL came out waving a gun threatening to shoot him; the oldest boy clinging to his grandfather's leg, screaming, DON'T YOU SHOOT MY FATHER!!!! Remembering those times makes the "chummyness" between the three women (2xw's and 1 current wife) rather astonishing.

His 2nd XW used her son as a "family" decoy as she trafficked drugs from out of state with her drug-dealing OM. She finally got caught, but still got custody!!!? She turned her life around too. But I'm talking YEARS of recovery work, not just overnight. She had her own brand of psycho-pathology.

It wasn't until the children got old enough - around 12 or 13, and started voicing opinions, that their mothers started shaping up. By the time they were 16, the mothers couldn't manipulate visitation any more.

Time is the best strategy I could recommend - but don't lose contact - just limit it so that you can maintain the boundary that keeps you safe.