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#1041682 11/22/02 01:40 PM
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I have to agree with Fairydust. If my FWW went to the funeral of the OM, she would not be welcome back home, not for a while at least. The A is over, and while I have been sympathetic and given her time, its time for her to start thinking of my feelings first. She is an adult though, and I cannot, would not stop her if she wanted to go. But no way would I support her through this.

To explain how I really feel, here is a better plan. I would have FWW stay home, while I went to the funeral and pissed on the grave of the OM in front of everyone, then I would tell em why.

In Bandit's case we are talking about a man who not only damaged one M, but evidently another one too. Give me a break people. This man deserves no sympathy from anyone, least of all Bandit's W.
Michael
Me 39(40 soon, yuck!)
FWW 38
M 18
Two S's
A began Jan 01
D Day Jun 01
In MC

PS I know this was a very un MB post, but I couldn't take it.

#1041683 11/22/02 02:21 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
<strong>I have to agree with Fairydust. If my FWW went to the funeral of the OM, she would not be welcome back home, not for a while at least. The A is over, and while I have been sympathetic and given her time, its time for her to start thinking of my feelings first. She is an adult though, and I cannot, would not stop her if she wanted to go. But no way would I support her through this.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. I Plan A'd my butt off, and it was very succesful and benefitted myself as well as the marriage. But when we reconciled I made it VERY clear that I was at the end of my rope. If we were going to make it, the OW had to become a non entity. There wasn't room in our marriage for 3, and I was done making allowances. I had to come first, and she had to come nowhere, not for any reason.

#1041684 11/22/02 02:33 PM
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Bandit,
If I were in your shoes, I can honestly say that I would not feel sadness, sympathy for REAL FAMILY_YES, but I would be relieved that the thief was gone.
You are not a bad person for not "moarning the loss of your wife's lover!" Get real here! Any one else should walk in your shoes!

#1041685 11/22/02 03:02 PM
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I look in the obituaries every day hoping to see that SOB name. I have day dreamed about going to his funeral and writing A*s hole on his fore head with magic marker.

#1041686 11/22/02 06:06 PM
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Okay, how's this for a slant on things....

I've been both the OW and am now the BS. (See my signature line--I married the OP...yeah, yeah, I've already heard all the cliches--that's not what I'm about today.)

When I was the OW, I often wondered how I would handle it if something happened to him. I thought I would probably lose my mind with grief, as who the H*** was gonna give me comfort? Who the H*** would I confide in with my sorrow--who would I lean on? I was single, no husband to worry about hurting; I sure wouldn't have gone to the funeral and rubbed the W's nose in it.

Now, with the shoe being on the other foot, I can honestly say that I have no use for the OW, despite the fact that I used to be one. I've expressed some pretty graphic ideas about what I'd like to happen to her; none of it pretty. Hypocritical? Yes, definitely. I'm taking my punishment like a big girl for my sins of the past. Doesn't change my attitude about her. Would I let my FWH go to her funeral? If he did...well, like other posters her, he'd be sleeping in the street.

my move

#1041687 11/22/02 06:58 PM
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WHAT WS'S FAIL TO REALIZE IS THAT THESE "OP" INFLICT UPON US A LIVING DEATH. IN ORDER TO EVEN BREATH SOME DAYS I BLOCK THEM OUT AS NON EXISTANT. IN MANY CASES OUR BS MAY FIND THEIR WAY BACK AND SHOW REMORSE, RARELY DOES THE "OP" FADE AWAY ON THEIR OWN. WE AS BS'S DETACH SO MUCH SO FROM THE OP THAT THEIR VERY EXISTANCE IS IRRELEVANT THEREFORE THEIR DEATH IS MEANINGLESS. IF THESE PEOPLE EXISTED FOR US IN OUR MIND'S EYE IT WOULD BE MADDENING. I PERSONALLY AM PAST REJOICING AT THE DEATHS OF ANY OF MY HUSBAND'S OW HOWEVER I WOULDNT LOSE ANY SLEEP OVER THEIR PASSINGS EITHER. TO ME THEY ATTEMPTED TO END MY LIFE WITH THEIR SELFISH CALLOUS BEHAVIOR AND AS A SURVIVOR OF THESE WOUNDS I AM UNMOVED BY THE REALITIES OF THEIR WORLD. ANYONE OF THEM WOULD LOVE TO SEE ME SUFFER MERELY BECAUSE I AM HIS WIFE, BECAUSE I WIN THEY LOSE, I HAVE THE MAN, HIS NAME, STATUS, SECURITY, RESPECTABILITY, AND DEVOTION THAT THEY WERE DETERMINED TO ROB FROM ME-I AM THE BETTER PERSON BY MERELY BLOCKING THEM OUT. AFTERALL THEY HUNTED ME AND WOULD HAVE LEFT ME FOR DEAD. SHOULD ANY VICTIM OF A HENIOUS ATTACK IGNORE THE RAGE THEY FEEL FOR THEIR ATTACKER? EXTRICATING THE CANCER THESE PEOPLE WERE IN OUR LIVES IS MORE THAN THEY DESERVE.

IN RECOVERY A WS MUST UNDERSTAND THIS IN ORDER TO HELP THEIR SPOUSE HEAL. THE HEARTBREAK IS BEYOND EXPLAINABLE. WS SYSTEMATICALLY SUPRESS THE NATURAL REACTION OF RAGE THEY FEEL FOR THE OP OVER TIME IN ORDER TO SURVIVE. IF THE OP DIDNT REACH A POINT OF OBLIVION MENTALLY FOR US I WOULD BE AFRAID FOR THEIR WELFARE...BECAUSE THE PAIN IS SO GREAT REFOCUSSING ON THEM AS NONENTITIES RATHER THAN OUR GREATEST ENEMY IS THE OP'S SALVATION.

#1041688 11/22/02 07:27 PM
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I like MY MOVE's response because it comes from both sides of this issue.

Personally, as much I don't give rat's a$$ what happens to the OM, I would allow my W to grieve and support her through it, but I must be a little nuts anyway.

As it is today, WW stills sees OM because his D and our D are best friends and OM and W had already been taking turns with pick-up and drop-offs from school and each others' houses when needed, which apparntly benefits both of their working schedules, but still frosts my nuts, if you know what I mean.

Plus, I still see her commenting on things that go on in his life (like a possible custody battle between OM and his ExW over their D moving out-of-state) as if she still cares a lot about what happens to him in his life. I honestly think still considers him a friend. We were all friends before this happened, so I think she still sees him as friend even now, just without the sex this time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Bottomline, we are not saints, and to expect the BS to "rise to the occassion" and be oh so spiritual and above it all is unrealistic. It's already bad enough that the BS has to "tough it out" with Plan A'ing their butts off while the A continues in their faces in many cases, plus, we are required be supportive and understanding and provide a "safe environment" for the WS lest we ruin our chances of saving the M, and all this while we feel as though our hearts are being ripped out of our chests and our guts are on the floor being trampled on, so please do forgive the BS if they just can't seem muster one more iota of "support and understanding" in the face of the OP's ill-fortune or demise.

I can respect the feelings of my WS in such a case, but do I really need to sympathize or empathize with her? I'm still not sure. I would only be as supportive as I am capable of being at the time. In the weird case posted here, where the OP dies the same day that the WS decided to stay and reconcile, I can fully understand the reaction and the feeling behind it. It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out.

Now then, say the WS goes to the funeral and then weeks or months later the WS is still "missing" the OP in an obvious and relationship affecting way, then what? Does the BS still offer up continued sympathy and support? When does it all end?

The BS has as much "right" to feel and thinks as they do as much as the WS does. Bandit, feel whatever you may, but outwardly support your wife through this grief. It may payoff in the long-run and ultimately show her once and for all how much of a better man you truly are! Good Luck!

#1041689 11/22/02 08:10 PM
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Bandit,

I totally agree w/you and anyone who would feel relief over the demise of OP. Personally as a BS I see the OM demise as a victory. I know I will get bashed for saying this but that's just how I feel. It is no different than when he was at my house, on my bed, with my wife. He knew that I/we, my kids, my family and his family would be destroyed (see not only was he a neighbor but I thought he was my best friend). So he caused my death w/help from my WW but essentially he caused it. So to think that Bandit is wrong for having the feeling he has is idiotic.

Not only did he cause my death on the (2) occassions he came to my house to destroy us, he continues to kill off a part of me everyday by having infilltrated my WW's very being and thoughts. It has been hell for us (slowly recovering) but think of the death the BS goes through daily plan A'ing, plan B'ing, living, breathing, trying to survive and trying to recover. I've said in an earlier post. If there were anyway to obliterate this fu**** off of the face of the earth and not get caught I'm at the front of the line.

Now that being said I will caution Bandit to be patient w/his WW because understandably even if we don't like it she will have to grieve. Support her and be strong for yourself. I just hope for all of us (BS) just starting the recovery process that our WS would be just as devasted, hopefully more, if the unthinkable happened to us the BS. Sometimes because of the roller coaster ride of recovery we (WS) have to wonder about their feelings for us.

So Bandit peace be with you and I hope your WW recovers/has closure soon so that your recovery can be possible. For PacificP to think that he has no LOVE or COMPASSION for his wife's feelings during this time is just plain stupid. Put yourself in his shoes and walk a mile. You will never know the hell that he is going through.

To all of the WS out there that have given the utmost in respect and knowledge to the BS on this forum I thank you. But I hope that I didn't offend you, I ask you to please understand how the BS feels about the OP.

Again I don't mean to offend anyone I just wanted to point out that our feelings about the OP demise is valid for us. It may be horrible for us to think this way but for us it is as valid as the WS having given in to their feelings and allowing the A to happen.

NUFF SAID. SORRY FOR THE VENT......

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: therod ]</small>

#1041690 11/23/02 12:10 AM
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...and now for something completely different. There's always one "Bible-thumper" in the group--well--almost always. So, here goes...

Harsh--very harsh. And this is coming from a BS.

"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, or the Lord will see and disapprove and turn his wrath away from him." Proverbs 24:17

"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing so, you will heap burning coals on his head and the Lord will reward you." Proverbs 25:21&22

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."
Micah 6:8

I am the BS. And at this point, you might think I'm full of B-S. By what measurement or judgement you use, it will be used against you also. Forgiveness and compassion are qualities not easily found in the average person. It is always easier to strike back, easier to satisfy oneself for the moment. Easier to cuss 'em out, wish death upon, mangle and mutilate in our thoughts. Easy stuff--and FUN too(sarcasm).

Here's another food for thought-

"("THEY") teach you to be proud and unbending in honest failure, but humble and gentle in success; not to substitute words for actions, not to seek the path of comfort, but to face the stress and spur of difficulty and challenge; to learn to stand up in the storm, but to have compassion on those who fall; to master yourself before you seek to master others; to have a heart that is clean, a goal that is high." What are "THEY"? They are in the beginning of Gen. MacArthur's DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY speech. Duty and honor--difficult words because they are mere words to some--life to others. This is LEADERSHIP.

Show no forgiveness, no compassion and the result will be no growth, no learning. You wish to wallow in your anger? And if your current marriage fails, what would you expect from your next relationship? Need a baggage handler?

I am not suggesting that one lays down as a doormat to be stomped on or have dog-doo smeared on. I am suggesting to rise head and shoulders above with forgiveness and compassion.

There is much anger in this thread. Justified? Yeah--Misdirected and counterproductive? It depends--how soon do you want to get on with life w/or w/o your S?

Finally, "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 12:21

I am PP's H.

#1041691 11/23/02 07:36 AM
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PP- self serving rationalizations. Bullsht.

*Swooning; hand on forehead*"we all make mistakes"..*

pathetic

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Family Man ]</small>

#1041692 11/23/02 08:14 AM
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Hello Everyone,
I wonder if anyone would agree with me that this is the perfect time to maximum Plan A-for all the reasons that have been stated but also because with his death the OM can no longer be a threat but he can no longer LB either! So there is a danger that Bandit in his attempts to re build with his WW will have to compete with the fond memories of OM, and if things go badly OM's "good qualities" will become magnified to Bandit's disadvantage.

So Bandit I would think allow her to go to the funeral and offer max support and love and allow her to grieve-be the person she turns to . Don't allow yourself to LB by letting her see your true indifference/feelings twds OM-valid though they are.

PacificPrincess, I am sorry you have had a hard time on this thread. But I am afraid that you reveal some classic justification for an A by a WS. And that is offensive to a BS at any stage in the nightmare of infidelity.

Deluded

#1041693 11/23/02 10:09 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by THEOPHILIS:
[QBShow no forgiveness, no compassion and the result will be no growth, no learning. You wish to wallow in your anger? And if your current marriage fails, what would you expect from your next relationship? Need a baggage handler?
.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Theophilis,
You are only half right. We are not supposed to gloat when our enemy fails, but we are not supposed to "forgive" those who A} don't want or need forgiveness and B} don't repent. That is not God's standard and he has made it clear in the Bible that repentence is a condition of forgiveness. We don't pass it out like cheap candy; that is a misuse of forgiveness.

Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4
If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

#1041694 11/23/02 01:02 PM
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If any of WW's OPs should die, believe it, I want to be at their funerals. And not because it would provide any closure, it wouldn't. I'd just like to know that world is better off for being rid of another sneaky, spineless,lieing cheat. I can't tell you the satisfaction I'll feel they day I'll know they are on their way to shovel coal.

For your WW to want to go to the funeral is just one more contact with her OP. True, it would be the last one, but it is still a form of expression for contact. One last win for the OP!!!

#1041695 11/23/02 01:23 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LesThanIWas:
If any of WW's OPs should die, believe it, I want to be at their funerals. And not because it would provide any closure, it wouldn't. I'd just like to know that world is better off for being rid of another sneaky, spineless,lieing cheat. I can't tell you the satisfaction I'll feel they day I'll know they are on their way to shovel coal.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Careful, there might be somebody out there for whom you fit those same 'qualities' to a tee.

Remember that the OM only existed because your WW gave herself mind, body and soul. Without her, he would not exist.

#1041696 11/23/02 01:24 PM
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MelodyLane

Thank you for your response and insight. I believe that the grace and patience of God is infinite for He is infinite. As for mankind, for as long as the unrepentent has breath in their lungs, I believe His grace and mercy remains. I believe that severe eternal judgement is passed to those who do not repent from "UNBELIEF" that Jesus Christ is LORD. I believe a person who first repents from "UNBELIEF" receives salvation. Turning from wicked ways requires empowerment from the Holy Spirit and to receive that, one must first "BELIEVE." I do NOT believe it is the aberrant BEHAVIOR that God requires repentance FIRST in order to receive forgiveness, IT IS THAT ONE BELIEVES THAT GOD IS AND IS A REWARDER OF THOSE WHO SEEK HIM--Heb. 11:6

Now, as to how that relates to us...

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do," as the onlookers mocked and derided Him. They did not repent from the mocking and derision (behavior spurred by unbelief) and yet, that was His request to the Father. I believe somewhere as you probably know, we are told to be imitators of Christ. Where sin abound, grace did all the more abound. Should we be gracious, kind and forgiving to all? Or shall we be selective?

Assuming you know the Bible, look at the corresponding Scriptures in Matt. 18:21-35 to your reference to Luke 17:4. There is more to 17:4 than just that. Let me go a bit further in the Prodigal Son. The father was WAITING WITHOUT ANY GUARANTEE that his son would come home. What would that impy? Grace, mercy or mere stupidity?

My sin of neglecting the most important things on earth, marriage&family, resulted in a lot of hurt. In a round-about-way, maybe I can be called the WS because, the "OW" was my JOB.

So what then is my attitude? The one who goes on sinning condemns himself--if unforgiveness is sin then what am I doing? How would you move on to healing and receiving blessings from God?

#1041697 11/23/02 01:57 PM
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Theo,

Unbelief is certainly a sin in the eyes of God, but when we repent we are repenting from other sins and the Bible is replete with evidence of this. Forgiveness is always contingent upon repentence as the verse from Luke states. It doesn't say repent of your unbelief, because that is not the matter between man and his brother, but a matter between man and God. And yes, God does forgive us our sins, but he does not forgive unrepentent sin.

I believe it is a gross misuse and abuse of the act of forgiveness if we hand it out unbidden like cheap candy. When we do that, we are really doing it to make OURSELVES feel good [self righteous and magnanimous], rather than giving a gift to the person who neither wants or needs our forgiveness.

#1041698 11/23/02 02:19 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by THEOPHILIS:
<strong>

So what then is my attitude? The one who goes on sinning condemns himself--if unforgiveness is sin then what am I doing? How would you move on to healing and receiving blessings from God?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Theo, another comment. You are right that unforgiveness is a great sin. However, there are requirements for that forgiveness as I showed above. You are leaving out that important piece. If you say that unforgiveness is a great sin and there are no conditions to forgiveness, then you are basically saying that God is a sinner because he requires repentence of sins [not just THE sin of unbelief, but ALL sin.] Is God a sinner in your view because he doesn't hand out forgiveness to each and every unrepentent person then? Or are you saying then that God places a different standard on us? You see what I mean here? You are missing a key point here.

And just because the process of forgiveness [ie: repentence] isn't mentioned in EACH AND EVERY verse about forgiveness doesn't mean that it has ceased to be a condition. Just like Christ asked that God "forgive them for they know not what they do" does not mean that repentence is not required. It simply means that it was his hope that they would ask for forgiveness.

I think there is also alot of confusion about what forgiveness really means. Do I have to "forgive" the OW in order to release my bitterness towards her? Of course I don't. AGain, forgiveness is for the SINNER, not the sinned against and we don't need to forgive in order to release bitter feelings and heal.

Again, ABSENCE of the word 'repentence' in each and every passage about forgiveness does not negate the ABUNDANCE of passages that show it is a condition. Otherwise the Bible is contradicting itself and I hope you aren't saying that.

#1041699 11/23/02 02:25 PM
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Champ wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I look in the obituaries every day hoping to see that SOB name. I have day dreamed about going to his funeral and writing A*s hole on his fore head with magic marker </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I'm so glad to know that someone else does what I do...I read the Obits to see if my H's ex-ow is in there...but alas...I wouldn't go to her funeral, my H and I would be wondering what to do with the illegitimate child that she would have left behind...my H wanted to adopt her out when she was born...such is life....
*sigh*
Twiisty

#1041700 11/23/02 06:30 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
[QB][QUOTE] Originally posted by PacificPrincess:
... the initial development of admiration was in no way something I had control over. "Following" feelings and choosing to engage in an affair, on the other hand, ARE actions that requires deliberation and a selfish spirit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pacific Princess - Simply because you might "admire" someone does not mean you let it go the next step.

BB--You are correct. But, um, where in my posts did I say that going to the next step was okay? If anything, I think I stated your point (see above) in saying that "following" your feelings is deliberate, selfish and wrong.

I've been attacked in this thread as if I condone the actions of infidels, when all I was doing was expressing the apparent insensitivity and--IMHO--excessive joking on the part of a couple of posters at the expense of the dead, whether we knew this individual or not, when we understand one man's W is hurting at the loss of the life.

I even say that I agree you BS's have every right to hold such anger. I still get blasted...by someone who refers to herself as "psycho-b", no less. Unbelievable. Hate-on, sister....

Personally, I don't think I even belong at MB, for my A was the rare sort that I don't feel most can relate to....strictly an EA along the lines of what MBer ashirley experienced (she also no longer posts here). To my knowledge, there have only been a small handful of EA-ONLY FWS's that have come here in the past (atleast since I've been here since May) and I've noticed that the WH's who are currently taking multiple hookers for years behind their W's backs seem to get flamed by BS's a LOT less than the EA-ONLY WS's that come here! Something's out of balance, IMHO.

I also don't think I belong here because unlike all of the WS's of you BS's here, I DID RECOGNIZE the damage and hurt that going PA would cause EVERYONE IN THE SCENARIO ahead of time and didn't go there; when my friend did proposition me out of pain the week his sep. was legal (by the way, he was sep. from his W who was having a blatant long-term A and lied about it to everyone for 4 yrs....I watched her ugly selfishness hurt him and his kids for years!!), I turned him down, and initiated NC immediately...all this, despite extreme physical attraction and not wanting to lose the friendship...the pass had made that loss inevitable, as far as I was concerned. IT WAS DIFFICULT AS HECK, but I thought with my head, went against my body's wishes and against the extreme emptiness/loneliness I felt in my M (that I'd expressed to my H 4 years earlier, by the way, but he only fruther w/d from his family). Today I regret the hurt the R caused my H and our already-hurting M. At the time I selfishly allowed myself to fantasize about another man and accepted his eventual email flirtations, just because I didn't want to lose the ego-boosts and the feeling of being needed emotionally by someone who was hurting (yes, by a BS!). I let my compassion get the best of me.

So, I let the R go, and actually give God all the credit for blessing me with the wisdom to do the right thing in the end, and shortly after exposing the extent of the A to my H on my own.

Typically, I have never been one who "lives for the moment", in fact, the last day I saw OM I told him that I am one who looks ahead to the consequences, and the only consequences that could come of a PA was chaos (at the time I'll admit that I was thinking more of my son than of my H). I also told him that to have continued emailing him when I was aware I had feelings for him (aka "following my feelings") had been wrong and a mistake.

I tend to be a v. compassionate person (thus my alarm for the lack of compassion I saw in this thread). True, I have never walked in the shoes of a BS whose S had a PA, thus can't empathize with you, but as I made it clear, my close friends have been BS's and I understand you have every right to feel that way. As I also made clear, though, I have lost close friends to death and can, therefore, empathize with Bandit's W's sadness.

BTW, BB also wrote--"Also, "admiration" is one thing - allowing another person to meet EN's that your spouse should be meeting is absolutely, positively WRONG....With regard to the issue at hand - If my FWH's OW died, I would be sad that it happened and, if necessary, would be supportive of my FWH in anyway I saw possible. I think that is the "higher road" here."

BB--You are absolutely correct here, as well. Well put about taking the higher road.

Anyway, this forum really hasn't served me much lately, and having never had a PA or been a BS, I don't feel my opinions are of much value or are highly regarded. My M is on a healthy road to recovery, so I think it's time to move on. So.....toodles!

Peace,

PP, previously "artchick"

#1041701 11/23/02 07:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 439
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 439
My, my. This thread appears to spun completely out of control. While everyone is arguing about what is and isn't morale, what about you Bandit? How are you doing? What is the situation now?

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