Another long talk yesterday - not good news, I'm afraid. For those not familiar with my story, check the sig line below, it should sum it up pretty well. Basically, despite she having dropped contact with OM, us going to MC, she *can't* make a commitment even to *try* and make it work but thinks she "is simply stuck". She doesn’t accept my good deeds, in fact, she gets mad when I try and help her. On the other hand, she also refuses to invest anything into our relationship. We're living under the same roof, separate bedrooms, doing family things with daughter once in a while, but the temperature of the our relationship between us is close to freezing point.
Yesterday we had another long talk. She kept re-iterating her mantra:
1. How different we are
2. How I let her down on occasion X, Y and Z (of which I take partial blame, but, there were also circumstances!)
3. How she and OM understood each other automatically and so well
4. How OM's family are the in-laws she always wished she had
5. How much energized she is when she is with him
6. How she can't make me happy, and vice versa
7. How she is much more in tune with OM (like, finding the same things funny, enjoyable, sad etc)
8. How OM was so patient as a father, that he wants children, and that he will be an ideal father.

The long and short of it, she wants out. She wants to "realise herself", "to find herself (with OM that is - more below)", "to solve her problems - after which, who knows, she may or may not want to have a relationship with me". She cannot understand why I can't see the "reality", why I cling on to her. Actually, she even accused me of acting the way I do only so I can then say that I've tried it all and it was all her fault. She discussed how I imagine a life where we would be separated. I told her: it will definitely be painful for all, including our daughter. I would probably move out, unless she would, as I couldn’t live in the same house with her. I would continue to be a co-parent, but otherwise probably would want to cease all contact with her. She told me how she thinks about it: She would leave me with daughter and move to the US. (Immigration visa? Where to live? Me being left in Europe, not being able to see daughter anymore? - her answer: a) that's the problem with you Nick, you always see the problems first, you always put hurdles in my way. b) alternatively she would leave alone for US and then our daughter would suffer even more, apart from the fact that she doesn’t think I was able to cater for daughter fully c) again alternatively, she will be stuck here in London, that's the way I try to have power & control over her, hindering her to realise herself). That, surely, OM's family would help. That his mum (aged 60 or so) who is the MIL she always wanted to have, who doesn’t speak a word of English, and who has a passport from Whatever-stan would fly over to help to look after our daughter, so she can go out and work and make a living.

Despite the difficult nature of the things discussed, we managed to keep a calm dialogue mostly. This we definitely never managed before we went to see MC.

Going through all her arguments, it is clear that most of it is a good mixture of bullocks, fantasy and fog. I mean, read through it again - it's strong stuff, innit. Nevertheless: I hear this mantra already for in the 9th month and counting. As long as she doesn’t *try* to make our relationship work, as long as she doesn't invest a single cent into our relationship, then it wont improve and is the doomed. Therefore all her arguments, even if they are all only a fantasy, fog, whatever, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Do you see what I mean?

Those familiar with my thread may remember that we had the same discussion already back in April/May or so, when she was still in contact with OM, and contemplated a move. Maybe it's becoming a bit of a bore for the majority of you out there to hear me saying the same things always. Call me a naive fool, but I'm still standing my ground and repeat my mantra which is a) I see a future for us, and b) our relationship cant improve if she doesn’t contribute and c) if she wants to get out, it's really up to her, I cant force her to nothing. But if she wants out, then I'll fight my ground re. co-parenting rights.
Lisa, you asked in your previous post how long I could continue to do that. You know, if I see the one or other move from my wife, then I can sustain that. There were some encouraging signals, like her dropping contact with OM or agreeing to MC. But if she really wants out, then it's plan B, and it's coming hard and fast.
Maybe it's indeed me who is living on planet Zork and not seeing reality for what it is? Why fight the inevitable?

Sorry to hear about this developement. Are you sure that there is NC?

The fog that has rolled in is like pea soup. It makes me mad to think that she would want to take your D with. How insane! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I'm too mad to comment in further. Keep strong.

Oh Nick, I am so sorry to hear this latest development. Things, in some respects had seemed a little better for you - MC, NC etc. Mind you, maybe Luki has a point, do you think contact may have started again?

No, you're not crazy for wanting to make your M work - well if you are, then you and me both and most of the other MBers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Are you on Planet Zork - don't think so. But I don't see much positive in this latest turn of events. There's not much of a glimmer is there? Only you know what to do know - is it time for Plan B? I think from what you have said previously, your W does not think you will leave her, and probably feels secure in that knowledge.

I can understand that you feel you have little to work with - even if there was some give on any one issue you would have something to work with. Nick, I hate to say it, but I think the time may be drawing closer that you have to start thinking about protecting yourself and your D.

I am sorry not much advice, but know that I am thinking about you and wishing you well from rainy cold north London.

Lisa

Hi Nick - I think you're right on with your assessment.

Tell me if this is a good boil down: She is hell bent on going to the greener grass.

My XW was the same - we didn't even get to MC - and my only choice was whether I make it hard and expensive for her to go to the greener grass, or easy and cheap, but all of it being her decision.

I think you're in the same place as I was and there may be nothing you can do other than let her go, Plan A'ing in the meantime, and do whatever you can for the welfare of your daughter.

Despite all logic to the contrary, the grass is greener, man, and there's no way we can convince them it might not be.

double post

<small>[ December 12, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Nick, Are YOU sure there was NC, because how and why would she keep saying that the OM's Mom would be the best MIL and watch your daughter and all that if she was not sure that they had a future, maybe I'm missing something but it sure does sound like they have at least been speaking some how or making contact, in how she is speaking to you about how she has mapped out her situation. I am not being negative, I just feel that it is strange how she can keep up her "foggy" attitude if she has not made arrangements some way of someone being there to assist her. JMHO, I feel that women are more organized in that when they are planning major events in their lives, even if they are "fogged" in. My thoughts are with you Nick and I'm sorry if I said anything you might take as negative.

Nick you might want to consider telling your W that although it is your desire to rebuild the M but if she's hellbent to end the M then she is free to do so. HOWEVER she should NOT expect for you to roll over and make things easier for her or to forfeit your parental rights. Why would you tell her this? To make her see that you are not needy, clingy, desperate, but more importantly, to let her know that your life WILL go on without her just fine. Many WS stop their running away from the BS when the BS stops chasing him/her and turns around the other way. In some of those cases, the roles become reversed and the WS starts to chase the BS. This happens a lot when the BS starts plan B. Please think about this.

Nick,

can only echo what others have already said - I'm so sorry that your W feels this way. I also think that it is probably time to use Coffee Man's wise words. I also think that (if you feel up to it) you can combine this with still Plan A'ing. Not that anyone would blame you for going straight to plan B after all you have been through.

Interesting comments re the NC. I know that your WW and the OM were together for quite a while. I don't neccesarily think that your Ws plans with regard to him mean that they are back in contact. However it is clear that she is still emotionally involved with him - he/they might possibly have spoken about having time apart - with NC - for your W to decide what she wanted. If this is the case it could explain why she has not been able to really commit to working on your M. In which case perhaps plan B is the answer for you. Let her have what she *thinks* that she wants right now - without of course giving up your rights to your D - and see how she really like it.

I understand that, given her wish to move to US with your D, it may very well be hard to Plan B without there being any way back: ie. that her wishes and yours regarding your D will be so incompatible that trying to seperate without agrro could be tricky.

Do please stay strong - your fortitude has been an inspiration to me as well as many others I am sure.

Nick-

I've got to say, regardless of how this turns out, that you are to be commended for your complete dedication to your family. I think you should keep on with the present course as long as possible, as there's no question it sets you up for a POWERFUL Plan B if and when you decide to go that route. It sounds like your W needs to witness some real consequences to her actions rather than keeping things status quo. You know better than others how to go about it so good luck!. We're pulling for you and your family!

-G

Many, many thanks everybody for chipping in. A few common themes from all of you, so all told advice I should listen to very much so:
<strong>
Luki, Neesha: Is there or is there not any contact with OM? How specific are her plans?
</strong>
My gut feel says still no. I don&#8217;t want to elaborate too much, but I do monitor email traffic of *all* people involved in this mess. Bad boy, I know, but curiosity, and the desire to know and not being lied to is just too strong. It helped me especially during the time when WW was telling me all these fairy tales, but I knew what was really played. Unless they both avoid any emails, using home computer, or WW using normal home phones, then I'm sure that they are not in contact.
Another point is that I don&#8217;t think that WW has very specific plans yet. In a sense, she was rehashing the old ideas and fantasies from half a year ago. For the time being at least, it's just words, words, but no actions yet. She still has to walk the talk. As long as it's letting her anger & frustration on me, it's easy. But really packing & leaving is still a different reality. Despite her saying so yesterday and all that, I believe it really when I see her actually *doing* it (like, start D procedures, re-engage in contact with OM, move out, or anything like that).
Thanks Luki for the empathy. Thinking about it all this makes me mad as well!
Neesha - I'm not taking anything in your post negative, not at all! Thanks for chipping your thoughts.

<strong>Lisa, WAT, TMCM - is it the end of the road?</strong>
Agree v much that if she is hell bent that the grass is greener elsewhere there's not much I can do. I do have certain powers, but should I be willing to exercise it as to make the "exit price" as high as possible? Would be silly I think. Only exception of course: Anything to do with our daughter. She'll have a warrant signed by a judge dropped in her lap forbidding her to take daughter out of the country faster than she can say "OM".

<strong> TMCM - will plan B help? </strong>
Well, that's the big question, isn't it. Espoir also suggested it a while back. Maybe I should indeed shake that tree and see if anything falls down.

Most urgent question now: should I go with WW & daughter to xmas skiing holidays? Moments for bonding, happy family time and all of that. BUT at the same time, maybe a good time to say: nahh, you go, f**k the booked flight tickets and stuff, I'm staying and look for an apartment in the mean time. Any ideas?

PS - All that not greatly helped by the fact that my capacity for patience for b*lls* has greatly decreased recently and I had a few shouting matches at work&#8230;. Sod them. Called my head hunter today, may well have some change on the professional front as well soon. It never rains, it pours doesn&#8217;t it. But all taken together, maybe a chance for a clean slate and a fresh start??

<strong> Bowd </strong>Wow! Awesome! Great post. Many thanks! I missed that angle completely - it makes perfect sense. As above, I know that WW stopped contact, *but* she refused to tell me whether she sent NC letter or how they ended it. I can't imagine that this just petered out&#8230; And it is indeed a great explanation why WW can't commit. What I will definitely do is to ask her again the details of how contact stopped.

<strong> Litchfield </strong> thanks for the encouragement! Yes indeed: if the relationship wont work out, then at least separation, plan B, and life after will be so much easier as I know I gave it my best shot.

Again, I'm touched and impressed by all of your good wishes & insights. You're just great.

Nick -- I've been reading your posts since your d-day and your first days on MB. What should you do? Unfortunately, the reception on the see all/know all advice meter is not functioning for all of us lost souls here on Planet Zorg. I really wish I knew what to tell you.

I agree with Bowd that it is very likely that she and OM had some kind of agreement that she'd "try" and then they could get back together with a "clean slate" because she "tried". It keeps everybody in limbo and prevents anybody from really trying anything. I believe this is very much my situation.

I also think that the fact that your bulls#$t meter is causing you to blow up at people at work is a BIG sign that you need to somehow remove yourself from the day to day drama that is now your marriage. Your wife is saying the same cr@p that she's spewed from the beginning despite all of your efforts. You are starting to lose it at work.

I'm not far into plan B, but it has kept me from some of the pain of the broken record (which you're hearing), the painful accusations (which you are hearing also), and the drama up and down of clinging to small tidbits of hope. I don't know what the outcome will be, but it has given me some modicum of peace.

What should you do? I would go on the family vacation and do your best best best plan A and then go to plan B. Now, your wacky WW may be thinking that she'll use this vacation time to set you up again for failure. This is pretty typical. She will not engage with you on vacation and then she can come back and say "See, we just don't get along because Nick likes red wine and I only like white. Or, we are incompatible because Nick wears blue shirts and I only like white." Or some other such nonsense.

Even so, I would go and try not to let ANYTHING she says get you going or reacting or negatively responding. If she's still saying painful things about you and your M and blaming you for trivial things that happened in the past, you need to go to plan B and protect your D.

I am really sorry this is where you find yourself. I was hopeful that she would really put aside the OM and try and open herself to the possibility of restoring her relationship with you. My thoughts are with you.

<small>[ December 12, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: unsureheart ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa, WAT, TMCM - is it the end of the road?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately I can not answer that question. But it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to start contemplating a life without your WW in which you and your daughter will live in a peaceful environment full of love and promise. It would give you hope for a better life if your marriage ends up in divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do have certain powers, but should I be willing to exercise it as to make the "exit price" as high as possible? Would be silly I think. Only exception of course: Anything to do with our daughter. She'll have a warrant signed by a judge dropped in her lap forbidding her to take daughter out of the country faster than she can say "OM".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DON'T DO anything of the sort unless she gives you warning or you have imminent proof that she is going to leave the country with your daughter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM - will plan B help?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know. Usually plan B is implemented when the A is still going on despite implementation of plan A. But I take it that she is no longer having an A with OM, so how can plan B have any of its beneficial effects?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most urgent question now: should I go with WW & daughter to xmas skiing holidays? Moments for bonding, happy family time and all of that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not? It will be an opportunity to share beautiful memories with your daughter and hopefully with your WW as well. I say go for it.

Dear Nick,

I started to post to you on your other thread- and lost my post. In it, I was musing about the difficulties of recovery without a Plan B.

OK, you have gone above and beyond. In my opinion, things have to change now. You are into 9 months of a Plan A and your wife still is not getting it. You have some hard thinking to do.

The first thing is you must envision a future for yourself. Only yourself. You must ask yourself, is it acceptable to me to totally lose contact with my daughter? It seems the answer is no, so you must make it clear to your wife you will not permit her to leave the country with D. You are a capable parent.
<strong>alternatively she would leave alone for US and then our daughter would suffer even more, apart from the fact that she doesn’t think I was able to cater for daughter fully </strong>

Her opinion is completely irrevelant. Ask yourself this, if W died in a car accident tomorrow, could you function as a parent to your daughter? Or would you fall apart and put her in an orphanage?

So stop focusing on W and start focusing on yourself. Do you want to be involved in D's life? If yes, she doesn't leave the country. Unless, of course, you are willing to relocate to a country your W would also like to live in. But otherwise, the status quo goes.

If W says, I'm moving to wherever, are you willing to parent your D on your own? If yes, then you make it clear. W can stay in the UK and coparent with you, or move overseas and you will parent alone. Don't fall for her BS and guilt trip that your D needs her mom. If she cares about that, she will stay close to D.

And don't fall for the BS and guilt trip that you are controlling her. Excuse me, can't she go out and get a job? Any job, being a cashier or whatever? And find a crappy room to rent somewhere? That is an option. She has that choice. Then she can date and look for the man of her dreams.

<strong>I'm still standing my ground and repeat my mantra which is a) I see a future for us, and b) our relationship cant improve if she doesn’t contribute and c) if she wants to get out, it's really up to her, I cant force her to nothing. But if she wants out, then I'll fight my ground re. co-parenting rights.</strong>

I think this is excellent and very clear. You can't say it better.

I think the only thing you can do right now is to consult a lawyer. I think you probably need a separation. It might wake wife up, or maybe not. But I don't think anything else will. I would assume that she will stay in the UK for the moment, and figure out how to separate, what your rights are. It can't hurt, Nick. I did speak to someone when my H was planning to move out. The person clarified my rights to me and was very helpful. I wasn't guessing and I knew what to do if things didn't work out for me. Having that knowledge made me feel more secure. You may find that if you move out, she can claim abandonment. You need to know the law. I am saying, you can consult a lawyer, and it doesn't mean you've given up on your marriage. It just means you are getting information on how to handle a separation if that is what your wife pushes for.

Frankly, I wish I could buy her a one way ticket to San Francisco (very appropriate that it is literally the city of fog).

Sorry to sound a bit belligerent in this post, I feel a little ornery seeing you get pushed away/around so much.

So sorry you're going through hard times. You need a break from this.

Re: the ski holiday. Maybe continue the Plan A through the holidays. Or if you go to Plan B now, you hammer in the point of what divorce is like at a very vulnerable point. Frankly, I would spend the $$$ and call Steve Harley, master of Plan A/B for this one. In just one phone call he can help you with a game plan.

Nick,

I'm sorry to hear this. I thought MC was a positive step, but if contact persisted, it's useless (been there, done that). Alot of what she said is fog and fantasy, but I agree with coffeeman. You may have to let her go and make her decisions for herself. Protect yourself and your daughter financially and custody-wise. Don't let your desire to save your marriage allow you to cave in on these issues. I didn't, an although I'll probably be divorced soon, I've made the best with the hand I was dealt.

sad dad

Nick, I don't know if I would get into it with W how she ended it with OM. You know the answer- she didn't end it. Whether there's contact or not, it's not over. Asking her details just gives her fodder to accuse you of being controlling. But you can make it clear that your marriage has no chance as long as she is giving her heart to another. Don't accuse. You can just say sadly, You have given your heart to this other man, and it makes me sad. I doubt she'll deny it.

You know the truth. She is not treating you as her husband. She doesn't act like she wants to be married to you. Stick solely to what you can control (yourself). Leave the rest up to her. I do think it's good that you were able to discuss it calmly. That's progress in a way, right?

Nick, just glad I could be of help. I think you if you do ask her just be careful with your tone - although it seems that however careful you are she gets ratty with you so...

I would also go on the holiday and continue plan A-ing - if for no other reason than to show your W and your D how much you care for your D. I would also (given your situation and D) defintely follow espoir's advice about consulting a lawyer. In my situation I moved out - but that was because I would have found being on my own in *our* house too hurtful. I can sense from your posts that perhaps you feel the same way - and that you know your W will be reluctant to leave. But we do not have children - you have your D to think of. The last thing you want to do is something that could harm your chances of being with your D should the end really come.

Stay strong - I'm up in your neck of the woods til Sunday (Richmond) so will be offline but I'll check back in Sunday.

Many thanks everybody. I think I got the message. WW was very sweet yesterday and suggested to have a night out today(??? - seems to be a common pattern; first beat me up, then being nice. been there, got the t-shirt.). Got a v. busy day today - will try to digest your answers and post my views & and an update later. Thanks and so long! PS - monday, WW will go to see MC alone (she requested that in the last session to which I agreed, as the justification that "she needs to work on herself/understand her problems/etc" made sense at the time). Well, let's see.

<small>[ December 13, 2002, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Nick, just wanted to let you know that I was your wife. I did things exactly the same way. My gut kept telling me that staying together as a family was the "right" thing to do, but when I'd break off contact with OM the withdrawls would put up walls that wouldn't let hubby in to do things differently anyway. It was a long, vicious, hellacious cycle. I didn't let go of the fantasy that things would be easy and perfect with someone else if only I could get free...until I did get free and 'real life' stepped in to sober me up.

The pattern of socking it to you then sucking up is another I recognize. I'd feel so guilty about blasting my hubby and seeing him hurt and sad (and KNOWING it was my fault) that I'd spin right back in to caretaker mode and try to make it all better for him.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know the patterns and behaviours she's exhibiting are pretty standard. Hang in there and good luck!!